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Resiverence

Member
Jan 30, 2019
517
It's really surprising to see people approving of Govt involvement here. I'm not convinced it's been shown to be a legitimate problem. IIRC only one country considers lootboxes are gambling, Belgium, and where are the studies to show kids buying lootboxes are becoming problem gamblers? The big study at the core of the Australian Govt's investigation was all based on adults, not children, and they couldn't confirm whether lootboxes caused the adults with self-described gambling issues to spend more, or whether those adults were finding more ways to spend. And on forums like this, whenever this sort of topic comes up there are rarely if ever any anecdotes from people knowing kids who've spent a fortune on lootboxes. Be careful what you wish for when it comes to Govt getting involved, or how the industry might try to replace the revenue when you can easily avoid games with lootboxes or P2W.
I dont think avoiding a problem just makes it go away. The industry should've fucking regulated itself if it didn't want government intervention but like the fools they were they just kept chasing every last $. Also the slippery slope argument is one I think is pretty bad because if they could implement something worse than lootboxes and p2w, whats to think that might not be acted on if the former does? I don't think using what ifs to justify unethical shit is ever a good idea.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,030
Tell me how a direct "don't" at timesaving microtransactions and loot boxes hurt the gamer's experience or is innovative and compelling. I'd love to hear how that would work out.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
He is a republican so I don't trust him. But I have to say that the thought of seeing Fifa as an M rated game, because EA can't be bothered to stop their microtransactions bullshit, is quite tempting
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
This should really include the predatory mechanics on mobile games. But I'm sure they will be exempt cause reasons. Far worse than anything Battlefront 2/ Fifa has ever done.
how can they be "far worse" if they follow the exact same formula?

that's the fucked up part...we've reached a point where 60 bucks retail games have the same exact in game economy of f2p games..and many people are ok with it.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I'm not sure why some are talking as if it's a done deal, this bill if passed will probably get challenged in court.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
ESA answer
"This legislation is flawed and riddled with inaccuracies. It does not reflect how video games work nor how our industry strives to deliver innovative and compelling entertainment experiences to our audiences. The impact of this bill would be far-reaching and ultimately prove harmful to the player experience, not to mention the more than 220,000 Americans employed by the video game industry. We encourage the bill's co-sponsors to work with us to raise awareness about the tools and information in place that keep the control of video game play and in-game spending in parents' hands rather than in the government's."

Dear ESA,

Thank you for the expertly crafted Press Release. Respectfully, go fuck yourself and your predatory monetization.

XOX

Consumers


He is a republican so I don't trust him. But I have to say that the thought of seeing Fifa as an M rated game, because EA can't be bothered to stop their microtransactions bullshit, is quite tempting

You know there is bipartisan support for this?
 

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,236
He is a republican so I don't trust him. But I have to say that the thought of seeing Fifa as an M rated game, because EA can't be bothered to stop their microtransactions bullshit, is quite tempting
If the goes through they wouldn't label it as m it would be ao. M can still be sold to age 17 folks.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,699
ESA answer

This legislation is flawed and riddled with inaccuracies. It does not reflect how video games work nor how our industry strives to deliver innovative and compelling entertainment experiences to our audiences. The impact of this bill would be far-reaching and ultimately prove harmful to the player experience, not to mention the more than 220,000 Americans employed by the video game industry. We encourage the bill's co-sponsors to work with us to raise awareness about the tools and information in place that keep the control of video game play and in-game spending in parents' hands rather than in the government's.

"Why do you want to rob players of the feeling of pride and accomplishment coming from lootboxes?"

Is that you answering, EA?

Cant help but think that ESA's response is insinuating that its unprofitable to make games without lootboxes in it which is a whole lotta garbage. The worst that could happen is that games with lootbox mechanics like FIFA which is rated E for Everyone before would now just be rated T(een) or M(ature).
 

freakybj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,428
I sincerely hope this bill passes. Good riddance lootboxes and pay-to-win MTX. I think it's expertly written. Cosmetics, Harder Difficulty Levels, and actual new content can still be sold by publishers. With this bill publishers will have to go back to drawing board and actually earn our money.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,238
Better get ready for £70 games then.
Ignoring the points people have already made, people outside the US are fully aware that game price have increased a lot outside of the US yet we still get this lootbox crap? Here in the UK, last gen a new standard game about £39.99, now between can be anywhere between £44.99 - £54.99 and this is true in a good chunk of the world. Why do so many ignore this when they pull the "games never raised their prices crap?"
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,187
Ignoring the points people have already made, people outside the US are fully aware that game price have increased a lot outside of the US yet we still get this lootbox crap? Here in the UK, last gen a new standard game about £39.99, now between can be anywhere between £44.99 - £54.99 and this is true in a good chunk of the world. Why do so many ignore this when they pull the "games never raised their prices crap?"
Probably because they live in the US? I didn't know that game prices rose, what was the explanation besides they could get away with it? Currency rates?
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,876
After seeing the Jason Schreier Kotaku interview with Republican Josh Hawley I would be very scared if I was a company peddling lootcrates. He says he doesn't game but damn his knowledge of all of this was very good. This isn't some half assed initiative from him he knows his shit. I would be shaking in my boots if I was an EA exec reading that interview.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,238
Probably because they live in the US? I didn't know that game prices rose, what was the explanation besides they could get away with it? Currency rates?
Yep plus inflation... Which doesn't really explain why physical releases here are way cheaper then Digital ones, especially on consoles (Spider-Man PS4 at launch was £49.99 in physical form but £54.99 on PSN)
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,187
Yep plus inflation... Which doesn't really explain why physical releases here are way cheaper then Digital ones, especially on consoles (Spider-Man PS4 at launch was £49.99 in physical form but £54.99 on PSN)

yeah, someone mentioned that before (the digital being more expensive) and I don't get it... some kind of tax or protection for Brick and Mortar stores or something? There's no way that's what publishers want.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
Those aren't the only two options. There are plenty of companies in the gaming industry that don't do predatory practices and are successful.
Are you sure? Indie games have more or less doubled their launch price in the last decade, while AAA games have stayed flat, making up the lost revenue from not raising prices with inflation or increasing development costs via MTX. Of the AAA publishers, there's a long list of them who went bankrupt last gen or left AAA gaming. The publishers like Sony and Nintendo have a different business model to third parties, so e.g. they make 42% more revenue from each digital game sold.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Are you sure? Indie games have more or less doubled their launch price in the last decade, while AAA games have stayed flat, making up the lost revenue from not raising prices with inflation or increasing development costs via MTX. Of the AAA publishers, there's a long list of them who went bankrupt last gen or left AAA gaming. The publishers like Sony and Nintendo have a different business model to third parties, so e.g. they make 42% more revenue from each digital game sold.

Yes I'm sure. There is no need for companies like Ubisoft to charge MTX in games like Assassin's Creed. Same with Activision. These are financially healthy companies.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
Yes I'm sure. There is no need for companies like Ubisoft to charge MTX in games like Assassin's Creed. Same with Activision. These are financially healthy companies.
...because of MTX, in some cases. If you look at EA's numbers, the revenue from Ultimate Team is almost as high as the entire company's net income, and since most of UT revenue is probably income, that means if you removed that today then their profit margins would collapse from the current healthy levels of 20%-30% (same as they were in the peak PS2 years), to 5%-10%. As for Assassin's Creed, the amount of content in these new games, and the quality of that content, is truly staggering compared to last gen and yet they're actually much cheaper at launch inflation adjusted. $60 in 2006 is worth $77 now.
 

Ghost305

Banned
Jan 6, 2018
775
Lol, I knew this thread would be full of people defending loot boxes, didn't realize it would go the "can't trust the goberment" "free speech route." ResetEra's supposed progressiveness is on full display.

It's so insane to me how far we've come since Oblivion introduced overpriced horse cosmetics, to where we are today where people constantly defend loot boxes because it is supposedly necessary in order for game development to occur (despite the lack of evidence that this is actually true).

You realize that loot boxes/micro transactions are so prevalent because of the rising cost of game budgets...while they still remain $60 baseline? There's more than enough proof of that available.

That is the real issue here. People who want to see the death of loot boxes/mtx should be more open to the idea of paying $80-$90 for games new. Asking the government to step in is an extremely dangerous idea.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,028
UK
You realize that loot boxes/micro transactions are so prevalent because of the rising cost of game budgets...while they still remain $60 baseline? There's more than enough proof of that available.

That is the real issue here. People who want to see the death of loot boxes/mtx should be more open to the idea of paying $80-$90 for games new. Asking the government to step in is an extremely dangerous idea.

No one is asking the government to step in, the government is stepping in because the industry couldn't help themselves and built up an exploitative model

If the games or devs or publishers now struggle to make games or stay afloat without exploiting people and/or relying on gambling mechanics, then boo hoo

Maybe they'll raise the prices of games, maybe they'll go under, or maybe they'll scale back the games they make. Ultimately, we are in the situation because the industry decided to go down this path and then refused to deal with the issues that have arisen themselves in a sensible time frame

The idea that it is essential to accept this kind of thing or we'll be punished by price rises is a really weird framing of the situation. Publishers are not doing us a favour by putting these shitty mechanics in their games, they're putting them in their games because they make an absurd amount of money and it's less risky to make 3 games and stuff them full of shit whales will adore than it is to make 6 games and have 3 of them under perform
 

Deleted member 9317

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,451
New York
Because ESRB stops children from playing M rated games.

Wonder how this will be enforced...

Also, game industry screwed game industry.
 
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sandboxgod

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,919
Austin, Texas
How can I do my part to help this bill (or future bills) make it? I live in Texas. I'll vote republican if I have to I hate this lootbox shat.

Been avoiding all games that have them and trying to police games my kids play

I just feel they should be treated as gambling

edit:: Even ttough I vote my grasp of politics is not great. but I can start writing letters to my local representatives at least and start getting educated
 
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AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
My least favorite part of this will be the game publishers whining and increasing game prices to make up for it, claiming it's the only way that works when a few years ago the pre-loot box model worked.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
My least favorite part of this will be the game publishers whining and increasing game prices to make up for it, claiming it's the only way that works when a few years ago the pre-loot box model worked.

I cringe waiting this as well. Just wait 2 weeks post launch. It will return to the $60 you are used to.

And for the people either worried or rooting for lobbyists (seriously we have people rooting for lobbyist influencing politics on Era - mark that down), the potential tax revenue from treating chance based monetization akin to gambling FAR exceeds what lobbyists can offer. They are not leaving that money on the table. Again, great optics AND new tax revenue source. This is a win win for politicians.
 

coldcrush

Member
Jun 11, 2018
786
The government is stepping in because there is a predatory practice that video game companies know that kids are falling foul of. Its amazing to me the ammount of people who are upset about this.
As minors legally we should agree that they don't have the experience or mental maturity to not fall afoul of some very sophisticated marketing and psychological methods used to encourage them to pay money or ask their parents to pay for them. Heck plenty of adults get tricked to believing or spending un necessarily, but they are ADULTS . There are teams of people paid ALOT of money with alot of deep understanding of techniques to figure out new ways to squeeze more profit out of people playing games,. It would be absurd to think they don't know that kids fall prey to this more than adults. They can see very easily who their users are and what age and demographic data they have.
Of course you could argue it's a parents responsibility but guess what, there are plenty of shitty parents and ones unfamiliar with these practices, this is exactly why an outside body should step in to regulate this., a kid can form habits that could negatively affect them later in life for sure, It is a pretty obvious situation.
There is a bigger and more complex debate here but its pretty astonishing the hoops people are going through to justify this being ok. From my understanding (I could be incorrect) but the bill wouldn't actually kill loot boxes or micro transactions but ask for a mature rating for those games that contain certain types of MTX or lootboxes . Also I am really happy there is a Bi partisan effort on this, politicians not being so polarized and communicating and working together is what we need more of.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,532
You realize that loot boxes/micro transactions are so prevalent because of the rising cost of game budgets...while they still remain $60 baseline? There's more than enough proof of that available.

That is the real issue here. People who want to see the death of loot boxes/mtx should be more open to the idea of paying $80-$90 for games new. Asking the government to step in is an extremely dangerous idea.
Lower game budgets.
 

Youngfossil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,670
You realize that loot boxes/micro transactions are so prevalent because of the rising cost of game budgets...while they still remain $60 baseline? There's more than enough proof of that available.

That is the real issue here. People who want to see the death of loot boxes/mtx should be more open to the idea of paying $80-$90 for games new. Asking the government to step in is an extremely dangerous idea.
This has been disproven time and time again, but what ever.
 

sandboxgod

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,919
Austin, Texas
You realize that loot boxes/micro transactions are so prevalent because of the rising cost of game budgets...while they still remain $60 baseline? There's more than enough proof of that available.

That is the real issue here. People who want to see the death of loot boxes/mtx should be more open to the idea of paying $80-$90 for games new. Asking the government to step in is an extremely dangerous idea.
I'm open to paying more for my games if that's what it takes. These corporations have an obligation to their shareholders from what I read/watched is my understanding. So my only thought is the government has to step in. Because these corporations seem to just have no choice but to go for full 100% greed.

But I'm no corporate lawyer and have a loose grasp of politics. Need to do more research on what I can do to make a difference. Seriously gonna start writing letters. Been policing the f*ck out of the games my kids play but they download new crap on their little ipads so common sense dictates 99% of mobile games is overrun with lootboxes. daddy might have to go full throttle and take away these pads lol

edit: And hold up-- I'm fine with microtransactions! I like DLCs as long as it's developed post launch. That's the key- gamers dont wanna pay for DLC that was partitioned off from the game during development. but I'm sure y know what's up. It's lootboxes that I depise. Now f2p games can do what they need to do for DLC/mtx. But I hate lootboxes there too
 
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oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,028
UK
Arent Pokemon cards literally physical lootboxes

Not to pick on you, but do the people who always make this argument think they have somehow outsmarted governments who are looking to draft bills against lootboxes?

Do they think they have outwitted gambling commissions, and writers, and thinkers, and journalists who have written and investigated the subject, and that all these people are just unaware of trading cards, and the soon as they are aware, their entire argument will fall down?

Is that what they assume is more likely than them being wrong about lootboxes and trading cards being the same thing, with the same reach, impact, and scope for exploitation?
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
The industry brought this on themselves IMO. I look forward to seeing this bill and hope that whatever happens these Skinner boxes are nothing but a horrible memory in a few years.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
Sure, OK. It's a fair assumption that since people can make a lot of money when stock prices go up, they've already thought about that, but OK. Are gamers willing to accept less content and less quality? Not really, no. Should employees be whipped harder to work extra hours for free? No, that's not accepted. There's a lot of support for unionizing the industry, which would more than likely drive costs higher. Year after year, employees expect cost of living raises to keep up with inflation, yet game prices don't go up (US, I realize other countries have seen price raises in line with their currency losing value).
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,028
UK
Sure, OK. It's a fair assumption that since people can make a lot of money when stock prices go up, they've already thought about that, but OK. Are gamers willing to accept less content and less quality? Not really, no. Should employees be whipped harder to work extra hours for free? No, that's not accepted. There's a lot of support for unionizing the industry, which would more than likely drive costs higher. Year after year, employees expect cost of living raises to keep up with inflation, yet game prices don't go up (US, I realize other countries have seen price raises in line with their currency losing value).

What does "gamers not accepting it" look like to you?

They'll quit playing games forever?

They'll move into other forms of entertainment?

They'll go home and be a family man?
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,187
Not to pick on you, but do the people who always make this argument think they have somehow outsmarted governments who are looking to draft bills against lootboxes?

Do they think they have outwitted gambling commissions, and writers, and thinkers, and journalists who have written and investigated the subject, and that all these people are just unaware of trading cards, and the soon as they are aware, their entire argument will fall down?

Is that what they assume is more likely than them being wrong about lootboxes and trading cards being the same thing, with the same reach, impact, and scope for exploitation?

I still haven't seen a study about the effect of lootboxes on kids and how it's causing rampant gambling addictions. Like I said before, I agree that it's addictive at heart and should be looked at, for all ages, I'm just curious what has been studied and written about kids, which is the focus of this legislation. I still think parenting is needed on what parents let their kids get exposed to, and teaching them just what they're getting with digital purchases in general.
 

Uno Venova

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
Sure, OK. It's a fair assumption that since people can make a lot of money when stock prices go up, they've already thought about that, but OK. Are gamers willing to accept less content and less quality? Not really, no. Should employees be whipped harder to work extra hours for free? No, that's not accepted. There's a lot of support for unionizing the industry, which would more than likely drive costs higher. Year after year, employees expect cost of living raises to keep up with inflation, yet game prices don't go up (US, I realize other countries have seen price raises in line with their currency losing value).
I'll accept this subjective definition of lesser quality for less bullshit in my games, yes.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Are you fine with EA preying on people's addictive tendencies, children or not?

My concern is that while we bring up the latter point (adult victims of predatory monetization schemes) as something that needs to be dealt with, it's not really connected directly to this bill which is specifically about making it hard or impossible for children to spend their money on this stuff. Honestly, the fact that it only regulates based on the age of the players and not on the nature of the monetization (i.e., random chance) is why I don't think this bill is actually going to amount to much in the face of the industry.

As compelling as "won't someone think of the children" can be for effecting legislation, I don't think children actually represent the primary victims of these schemes. I am at best lukewarm on this particular bill, especially because I do not expect to see its focus broadened before getting passed.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,799
The funniest part about the whole "but what about trading cards??" nonsense is that trading cards ARE regulated. Not to the extent of casinos/gambling sure but they're certainly regulated a lot more rigorously than lootboxes.