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Oct 29, 2017
688
Some of you aren't old enough to remember an era when lootboxes and MTX weren't so prevalent. So when I hear arguments about how lootboxes are all fine and good in games like Overwatch and Fortnite, I'm both sypathetic (that you have no point of reference), and annoyed (as I do). I'll be glad if the government goes all hamfisted on this measure, as I'm sure they will. Then the industry can regain some dignity while genuinely rallying for artistic freedoms against any autocratic legislation.

This is it exactly. For the subset of us that still play games into our 30s, this doesn't have to be the way that it is just because it has been this way for the past 10-15 years.

It's really crazy to me how indoctrinated some gamers are to take these anti-consumer positions in order to defend the profit margins of publishers. It's truly nonsensical.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I can't believe some of the shit I'm reading ITT. Jesus fucking Christ.
Are you kidding me? The thought of free content is shocking to you?

There are a plethora of ways to monetize a video game. The industry can and will survive without loot boxes.
 

RF Switch

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,118
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist
 

TheChrisGlass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
Los Angeles, CA
As a thought experiment I wanted to try and create a (semi) formal definition of lootboxes. I figure if I can create my own definition that satisfies me I'll feel better about the US government's chances of bumbling into something similar. Please feel free to poke holes in it. Creating something airtight can't be easy.



Points:
  • Digital-only, so card packs and capsule machines are safe
  • Digital currency is maybe too broad but I don't know the formal term for "real-world money"
  • Indirect "your money gets you a guaranteed amount of gems so it's not gambling!" crap is covered
  • No mention of actual value of the good because that's impossible to argue
  • Specified determinism. Just knowing the odds of getting what you want isn't enough
  • Specified buyer knowledge. No loophole where you set the random seed before purchase but still tell the customer squat
  • May be overly broad, a Diablo expansion pack has randomized elements, does this fall under the definition?
The "digital currency" scares me because unless I read this wrong, this could eliminate even fake gambling games. Or just any game that has a currency. RPGs where you can't even make a purchase. They need to define "Digital currency"
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist
Why do you think loot boxes are the only source of revenue? Think outside the box so to speak.
 

Trace

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,691
Canada
I definitely want the government fucking around with the industry, this has never and could never have any negative repercussions!

Thanks old white people in government!
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,541
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist
*Yawn* There's no reason for games to have such bloated budgets that the likes of lootboxes are required to make a profit.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist

At least then I'll know exactly what I'm paying for and how much I'm paying in advance.

And even if the prices of big-budget games becomes untenable, there's no shortage of <$20 games on Steam I can look to for alternatives.
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
Not sure why people are defending predatory micro-transactions.

Shame more countries aren't doing this.
 

Stone Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,581
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist
Yeah because $60 gets you a full game most of the time and not a butchered mess asking for several season passes on top. Publishers report record highs every year but sure they are hurting and they need the poor weedle lootboxes to cover their costs.

Companies that can't be profitable with a simple $60 purchase should just fuck off the industry.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Do you guys think that this only happened because of Battlefront 2? Honest question. Its not like lootboxes were widely used before Battlefront 2.

I think BF2 put a spotlight on loot boxes with the mainstream media which lead to politicians looking for an angle.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,823
Congressmen don't give two hoots about the gaming industry or their corporate leaders. They're a drop in the bucket to them and have nothing tangible to offer. Any attempt at true lobbying power would be laughed out of the room.

2018 revenue:

EA $5.15 billion
Activision Blizzard $7.5 billion
Ubisoft 1.72 billion euros

And that's not even including the revenue from the big mobile game players. The games industry could splash around in a big way, and likely has started to do so now that their cash cow is threatened.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
Not sure why people are defending predatory micro-transactions.

Shame more countries aren't doing this.

The have an undisclosed personal or professional interest in this continuing as is, they are staunch right wing economic libertarians on principle, or they are trolling. Take your pick.

Edit: Option 4 - they are so emotionally invested into a game that might suffer from regulation that they are defending the practice as a whole. Forgot that one.
 

¡ B 0 0 P !

Banned
Apr 4, 2019
2,915
Greater Toronto Area
Do you guys think that this only happened because of Battlefront 2? Honest question. Its not like lootboxes were widely used before Battlefront 2.

Of course loot boxes were widely used before Battlefront 2. Why Battlefront 2 and EA are important is because it was that game and how it pissed off Star Wars fans that got the whole ball rolling. The reaction to the game led to governments all around the world to take an interest in video game MTX. Some of which has posed a serious threat to the industry like the Belgium lootbox gambling laws and now this bill.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,243
The "digital currency" scares me because unless I read this wrong, this could eliminate even fake gambling games. Or just any game that has a currency. RPGs where you can't even make a purchase. They need to define "Digital currency"

You could clear that up by talking about the ways in which the digital currency is used.

A quick attempt at that would be to create an exception for digital currencies that both cannot be purchased for real money or for which there is not an equivalent offering to use real money or a real-money-purchasable digital currency for the purchases.

This means RPGs wouldn't get pinged for gold accrual, provided that you're not selling microtransactions to give people in-game gold or having your RPG shops offer "this item is 12000 gil, but you can also spend $3 and get it that way instead!"
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
Casinos are not a creative industry though. They aren't releasing any kind of consumer good or fiction for mass consumption.

Have you seen what slot machines and pachinko machines and other similar stuff are like these days? It's all entertainment and dazzle to keep players engaged.

Unless you think stage shows don't count as "creative industries" either.
 

enzo_gt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,299
I don't think I'm ever as pro-Government as I am when an exploitative industry fails to self-regulate and the Government brings down the hammer. Now let's just hope that the bill is reasonable and doesn't end up overreaching.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
Take em down.

They're targeting children. Send a message. Make games that don't focus on making the user gamble to get rewarded.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I'm all for protecting kids, stopping them from making these kinds of purchases (if there's a reasonable way to differentiate a child vs. adult on an iOS/Android/XBL/PSN account). But if adults want to buy horse armor or loot boxes or double xp boosters? They should be allowed to make that decision for themselves.

Fighting for people's legitimate right to become digital gambling addicts while simultaneously and actively encouraging publishers to make games as shitty as possible is a hill I'm not willing to die on, thank you very much. Do you also stay awake at night over the government regulating casinos or is this limited only to changes in the current status quo?

(hopefully it's the latter for all the corporate gambling stans and they'll shut up once lootboxes are finally made illegal).
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
I think BF2 put a spotlight on loot boxes with the mainstream media which lead to politicians looking for an angle.
Yeah, thats possible.


Of course loot boxes were widely used before Battlefront 2. Why Battlefront 2 and EA are important is because it was that game and how it pissed off Star Wars fans that got the whole ball rolling. The reaction to the game led to governments all around the world to take an interest in video game MTX. Some of which has posed a serious threat to the industry like the Belgium lootbox gambling laws and now this bill.
Haha, yeah, sorry, huge typo from me :) I saw the mistake when the other guy quoted me, and i edited my post right before you replied. I ment to say "werent", not "were" =)

I was just thinking that so many other studios use microtransactions, especially on mobile gaming, so i dont think it was an EA specific thing. But yeah, its possible that Battlefront 2 in specific was the thing that got the ball rolling, indeed.
 

Bastables

Member
Dec 3, 2017
367
Casinos are not a creative industry though. They aren't releasing any kind of consumer good or fiction for mass consumption.
You might want to read up about slot machines and their evolution of using fictional properties such as Addams family in order to drive engagement. Hell look at Konami and the cannibalisation of their video game properties for pachinko machines.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
2018 revenue:

EA $5.15 billion
Activision Blizzard $7.5 billion
Ubisoft 1.72 billion euros

And that's not even including the revenue from the big mobile game players. The games industry could splash around in a big way, and likely has started to do so now that their cash cow is threatened.

Do you think when people are talking about "money in politics" that what they're talking about is literally just money?

Could you imagine any current politician giving even a second thought to being promised a seat on EA's board of directors, just to name an off-the-top-of-my-head example?
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist

No prices will need to be raised. The salaries of CEOs and upper management will need to drop, which is more than okay.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
If only this came about a couple of years ago, Halo 5 wouldn't have gotten so much grief for being a T.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
would Valve suffer? arent their games rated M
Valve will adapt just fine, they don't just do loot boxes (though they did basically pioneer them, though you can't actually open them for free without trading for keys).

The CSGO, TF2 and DOTA2 item markets will be a fucking mess, though.

Question for you to consider: is the arcade game industry a creative industry? Because the arcade game industry is more or less the same thing as the gaming machine industry.
Arcade gaming is more like a weird form of renting rather than analogous to gambling. It also helps that the amount paid per-credit is fairly low to begin with.
 

Wraith

Member
Jun 28, 2018
8,892
Some of you aren't old enough to remember an era when lootboxes and MTX weren't so prevalent. So when I hear arguments about how lootboxes are all fine and good in games like Overwatch and Fortnite, I'm both sypathetic (that you have no point of reference), and annoyed (as I do). I'll be glad if the government goes all hamfisted on this measure, as I'm sure they will. Then the industry can regain some dignity while genuinely rallying for artistic freedoms against any autocratic legislation.
Just in my experience... when you bought a game in the 90's or early 00's, you got what shipped in the box. That's it. Eventually publishers offered patches with bug fixes, maybe balance changes. But you really got nothing in the way of new content. For the large part, that game is the same today as it was when you bought it. Some games offered expansion packs, but were paying for those.

Overwatch is still releasing new content, and it's entering it's fourth year this week. If you own the game, you can simply keep playing and still get the large majority of new content on offer (new heroes, maps, modes, events, most cosmetic items) without spending a dime. If there was no purchasable content in the game, would the servers still be up? Probably. Would we have the number of new maps and heroes we have today? Doubtful.

If you don't like that business model, sure, that's fine. But outright banning it just seems ridiculous.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
Fighting for people's legitimate right to become digital gambling addicts while simultaneously and actively encouraging publishers to make games as shitty as possible is a hill I'm not willing to die on, thank you very much. Do you also stay awake at night over the government regulating casinos or is this limited only to changes in the current status quo?

(hopefully it's the latter for all the corporate gambling stans and they'll shut up once lootboxes are finally made illegal).
I dont think anyone is fighting for people to become gambling addicts, in the same way that people who want for example alcohol to be sold arent fighting for people to become alcoholics. Addicition is unfortunately a problem, and its worth disucssing that issue for sure, but its not like everyone becomes addicted by these type of things. I think its worth keeping that in mind as well. Its fully possible to play games with loot boxes and not be addicted by it. Personally, i cant remember ever paying for a loot box, and i've played a lot of games with it. I'm also currently playing a mobile game (been playing it for over a year) thats also kinda heavy on the loot box system, but i havnt spent any money on it. I have thought about it to be honest, but in the end, i simply cant justify the prices that they charge for it, but i still enjoy the game. ITs fair enough if people dont like loot box system as a feature though, of course.

I'm not sure if loot boxes will become illegal since its not about monetary gain. The focus in this case seems to be where things can be aimed at children, not the loot box system's function in general. If there will be an outcome of this case, i think it will be that games with loot boxes will require either M or AO ratings from ESRB.
 
Last edited:

RF Switch

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,118
No prices will need to be raised. The salaries of CEOs and upper management will need to drop, which is more than okay.
Youre joking right? Everyone here realizes that not a single one of these companies gives a shit about any of us right? The goal is to make money just like every other form of entertainment. Nothing is free and nobody should expect it to be
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Just in my experience... when you bought a game in the 90's or early 00's, you got what shipped in the box. That's it. Eventually publishers offered patches with bug fixes, maybe balance changes. But you really got nothing in the way of new content. For the large part, that game is the same today as it was when you bought it. Some games offered expansion packs, but were paying for those.

Overwatch is still releasing new content, and it's entering it's fourth year this week. If you own the game, you can simply keep playing and still get the large majority of new content on offer (new heroes, maps, modes, events, most cosmetic items) without spending a dime. If there was no purchasable content in the game, would the servers still be up? Probably. Would we have the number of new maps and heroes we have today? Doubtful.

If you don't like that business model, sure, that's fine. But outright banning it just seems ridiculous.

You are naming one game that has benefitted from the business model. You are leaving out all of the games, both on console and mobile that have been ravaged by it. If a game like OW doesn't get as many updates because it had its exploitative business model banned, I'm fine with that.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
Just in my experience... when you bought a game in the 90's or early 00's, you got what shipped in the box. That's it. Eventually publishers offered patches with bug fixes, maybe balance changes. But you really got nothing in the way of new content. For the large part, that game is the same today as it was when you bought it. Some games offered expansion packs, but were paying for those.

Overwatch is still releasing new content, and it's entering it's fourth year this week. If you own the game, you can simply keep playing and still get the large majority of new content on offer (new heroes, maps, modes, events, most cosmetic items) without spending a dime. If there was no purchasable content in the game, would the servers still be up? Probably. Would we have the number of new maps and heroes we have today? Doubtful.

If you don't like that business model, sure, that's fine. But outright banning it just seems ridiculous.
Then Blizzard will have to use a different business model, likely one more geared to making people actually pay for cosmetic items. People who got stuff for free will throw a tantrum, but having to actually pay for cosmetic content is the price I'm willing to pay for free maps and playable characters.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist

Games will never cost $100 because no one will buy them. Everything is moving to a subscription model anyway, no need for the "OMG without lootboxes games will be $100!!" fearmongering.
 

Scrooge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
633
Where are people getting that this bans paid DLC?

If it did, it's overly broad and might pose serious constitutional problems, but as I understand it, it only covers loot boxes and "pay-to-win" transactions. Am I wrong?
 

Arttemis

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
6,216
This industry, like every other, has proven itself incapable of self regulation. Companies driven solely by greed are not interested in the effects of the products beyond the numbers rolling into their bank account.

Something has to be done.
 

Stone Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,581
Overwatch is still releasing new content, and it's entering it's fourth year this week. If you own the game, you can simply keep playing and still get the large majority of new content on offer (new heroes, maps, modes, events, most cosmetic items) without spending a dime. If there was no purchasable content in the game, would the servers still be up? Probably. Would we have the number of new maps and heroes we have today? Doubtful.

If you don't like that business model, sure, that's fine. But outright banning it just seems ridiculous.
It's precisely because of whale abuse cases that you can have those things without spending a dime, microtransaction revenue comes mostly from a small percentage of high payers.

As much as I enjoy the possibility of free costumes, I don't want them at the expense of people who have addictive tendencies. Most games use lootboxes in ways that are several times more predatory than Overwatch because these companies aren't satisfied with any amount of money that isn't infinite money so if they can't control themselves then someone has to.
 

Deleted member 1726

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,661
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist

Fortnite is doing pretty well without lootboxes.

Mtx I have zero problem, locking content into blind boxes with piss poor odds can fuck off, along with all the psychological things they put into hooking people on them
.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Youre joking right? Everyone here realizes that not a single one of these companies gives a shit about any of us right? The goal is to make money just like every other form of entertainment. Nothing is free and nobody should expect it to be

You're right. So take the money away from the top and invest it into the company as opposed to a few COOs.
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,712
a Socialist Utopia
So what do people want?
Video games are cheaper than they have ever been in their existence...hell if you buy a game for 59.99 and spend another 60 on loot boxes you are still spending just as much as i spent on Mega Man X for snes the day it came out. So the price has stayed 60 are we asking the industry to stop loot boxes and please raise games to 99.99? Thats the trade off its not real hard to see why loot boxes exist

Before we go here you will have to make a convincing argument that publishers and ludicrously rich CEOs need that loot box money. There's literally millions more people playing video games today than there was back in the SNES days. The price of a product usually drops as you move significantly larger quantities to consumers.

Publishers are just greedy because they've been allowed to run rampant with their unregulated gambling shit.

I'm not buying into the poor publisher at all.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
It's exactly the same as buying trading cards in any tcg. The main thing that should have happened is they should have been clear about what you get and odds to get certain things, it's wrong they don't publish that information but It's not gambling.

You can't generally trade loot or sell loot for real money.