Polygon: CDPR responds to sexualized trans advertisement in CyberPunk 2077 (Read Staff Post Before Posting)

[Kyuuji]

I'm not saying for fear. I am saying that, that's exactly what will happen. That part whatever they will talk anyway. I'm not even saying pander to assholes, I'm saying the removing of the problematic shit at this point won't solve anything people already hate CDPR for it, the damage is done. Even if they came out and had a public apology for it, it wouldn't be enough for people.

Click to shrink...

You can miss me with this 'unreasonable people' bullshit.

I don't know how you could type the last line with a straight face when you're talking about the group that's given a non-apology and then no apology for their prior two cases of putting out transphobic content. Maybe if they ever had come out with an apology we would know.

 

[aSqueakyLime]

with most other companies this wouldn't get as much attention, but this is CDPR we're talking about so... yeah

 

[Landford]

If I understand the artist's vision right, what they were going for is that in this future, trans people are a beauty standard like any other, being completely normalized and accepted, but the fictional companies use their beauty standard in a gross and over-sexualized way to sell products.

If this is their take, It's a reasonable one. Not Ok, mind you, but something that isn't just hostile by intent like the other stuff that CDRed did.

 

[Yata]

So you both believe we should pander to what assholes might do and say in favour of removing the problematic shit from the game. I'm not even advocating for its removal but suggesting we shouldn't for fear of how alt-right dickheads might act is beyond stupid.

Click to shrink...

There are tons of people in this thread that are saying the artist's pressumed intent will fly over by the masses and one of the reasons why it is problematic already. I don't know why you are jumping at me when I am just saying I don't wish for trans people to have to engage with this bullshit anymore. They've already done harm and I am just trying to propose a solution.

Okay, but the point here is how marginalized groups are the ones being stereotyped in the game, and it helps perpetuate the stereotypes. And these stereotypes aren't just generalizations: they're inherently destructive in how they help dehumanize these people.

Click to shrink...

Absolutely right. I understand why trans people are concerned about it and I can't speak for them.

Something I was bringing up earlier is how representation (stereotype or not) is used in the lexicon of the fiction. From what we're been told by the artist, let alone what's obviously implied by the genre, the "grammar" of using a trans person in this corporate ad is designed to invoke ire from the audience. The ad itself is supposed to convey (by contrast to our own experiences) what has changed in this future, and in this case, part of what's wrong about that world. It's no stretch to recognize the corporate ads as symbols of how society has changed for the worse.

So probably using a targeted minority group, which already faces a negative cultural bias from real world audiences, as the face of negative change for the overarching big-bad for this story setting is probably not an intelligence choice unless the creator wants to get across that they think that group IS an indicator for that social/moral decay. That figure being cis-focused, fetishized "dickgirl" art sure doesn't help make a case otherwise, re: being a nuanced or multi-layered representation.

This idea that people will always misunderstand intent is totally whitewashing the actual signals sent by the work. Which, and I don't mean this as an insult to you, but comes across as brainless and defeatist. We have a situation where a group that's dehumanized in the modern context is, so far as has been presented to us, is only being further dehumanized in the game along exactly the same lines as present day. That's not subverting a stereotype, that's megaphoning it.

Click to shrink...

It's a fair point and a valid take from this. But I don't agree with it, mainly because when I first saw this ad, I personally understood the creator's intent, and other trans people did. The topic that the only intent that matters is what the the majority get from it is one I simply disagree with it.

you seem very antagonistic. I'm trying to figure out what your point is. are you offended that some aren't ok with that poster? are you against censorship?

Click to shrink...

I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, and I think I made my point clear in all my posts.

I clearly do not have any idea about this topic and it was very out of line for me to participate in the discussion; so I am choosing to not participate in this thread anymore. If someone still wants to discuss about it, you can talk to me through DM.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

You can miss me with this 'unreasonable people' bullshit.

I don't know how you could type the last line with a straight face when you're talking about the group that's given a non-apology and then no apology for their prior two cases of putting out transphobic content. Maybe if they ever had come out with an apology we would know.

Click to shrink...

That's exactly why I typed that last line. Because of mistakes in the past, even an apology now wouldn't do anything for them. Removing it won't do anything positive for them. This is a company after all. Removing it from the game will lose them sales from the censorship crowd.

The best we can expect is for them to learn from it and use the ad sparingly in the game, not remove it entirely and learn for future titles

 

[Belthazar90]

Seems like a reasonable answer, but it's really hard to trust CDPR due do their history of handling those issues. We'll wait and see

 

[Deleted member 5549]

If I understand the artist's vision right, what they were going for is that in this future, trans people are a beauty standard like any other, being completely normalized and accepted, but the fictional companies use their beauty standard in a gross and over-sexualized way to sell products.

If this is their take, It's a reasonable one. Not Ok, mind you, but something that isn't just hostile by intent like the other stuff that CDRed did.

Click to shrink...

but they're doubling down with a drink called ChroManticore - Unchain the Monster. it's straight up mockery.

 

[Kyuuji]

That's exactly why I typed that last line. Because of mistakes in the past, even an apology now wouldn't do anything for them. Removing it won't do anything positive for them. This is a company after all. Removing it from the game will lose them sales from the censorship crowd.

The best we can expect is for them to learn from it and use the ad sparingly in the game, not remove it entirely and learn for future titles

Click to shrink...

I think that's given them a pass to be honest, which might seem off hand but I think it's a problem. They don't deserve the assumption that an actual apology over their handling of these themes wouldn't be accepted. Especially if it was coupled with a dive into how they're exploring them in the game in a nuanced way. I can't tell you whether it would be accepted but I can tell you it's a damn sight better than continuing to do nothing while putting out harmful or questionable content.

You don't hurt someone twice, refuse to apologise, do it again and then suggest even if you did apologise the person wouldn't believe it so better just suck it up because the hurt is done.

 

[crowphoenix]

That's exactly why I typed that last line. Because of mistakes in the past, even an apology now wouldn't do anything for them. Removing it won't do anything positive for them. This is a company after all. Removing it from the game will lose them sales from the censorship crowd.

The best we can expect is for them to learn from it and use the ad sparingly in the game, not remove it entirely and learn for future titles

Click to shrink...

You seem more focused on CDPR's sales than you are on any damage their advertisements and messaging will cause.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

You seem more focused on CDPR's sales than you are on any damage their advertisements and messaging will cause.

Click to shrink...

I'm not concerned about their sales, sorry about how it came across.

I am saying they will be concerned about their sales and the best way for them to mitigate any financial losses and damages.

 

[Thuddert]

The wording is not convincing. This feels like someone chasing down a fetish.

 

[Gestault]

You don't hurt someone twice, refuse to apologise, do it again and then suggest even if you did apologise the person wouldn't believe it so better just suck it up because the hurt is done.

Click to shrink...

Bingo.

 

[Morrigan]

I liked the artist's explanation, but what's unclear is how, exactly, the game will use this ad to provide its social commentary that will decry the commoditizing of sexualized bodies for selling products. Will there be a quest or some dialogue to that effect? Because if it's just presenting the ad "as is" in the background and that's it... then it falls a bit flat. Reminds me of those claims that the misogyny in GTA was "satirical" then it's just basically played straight.

They talk about how being Trans is just a normal thing in 2077, but god forbid they actually give the option.

Click to shrink...

Wait... the game's character creator doesn't offer trans and non-binary options?

Sorry, I haven't kept up with the game much, but it's... Cyberpunk. If any game with a character creator should offer those options, it's that one. If Demon's Souls can have a damn gender slider to make almost* non-binary characters in 2009, Cyberpunk 2077 absolutely should have it. It's a no-brainer.

* I say "almost" because you still gotta pick a binary gender toggle but the slider has some... impressive results ^^

You seem more focused on CDPR's sales than you are on any damage their advertisements and messaging will cause.

Click to shrink...

Maybe CDPR is the real victim here /s

 

[monketron]

There seems to be 2 arguments going on here at the same time.

Should games (and all media, such as films) that portray society, or a potential future society, also include the bad things about that society. Whether that's racism, sexism, anti-trans issues, etc. The answer should be very much yes imo.
There is a huge problem with the fetishisation of the LGBT+ community - Transwomen and Lesbians especially. In a future where the fabric of society has sort of broken down and body manipulation has become so easy, these issues would probably get worse not better. The game should absolutely be allowed to explore this and that may mean including characters and story lines that portray people who hold those shitty values as part of that story. Just look at films to see how many classics have some pretty shocking racist themes in them and people who sprout racist views, but would we want those removed because racism is bad? I'm sure there are people watching those films who cheer on the racists rather than realise they're meant to be the bad guy. Should you make decisions of what you put into media based on what the absolute worse of society might make of it?

The second argument is, are what CDPR doing with Cyberpunk there to shine a light on those issues and how they may evolve (for better or worse) in a Cyberpunk future, or because they have serious issues with LGBT+ people, ethnic minorities, etc. Their track record isn't very good to say the least and while there's no way to really know what a person can be thinking, I don't think it's much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that many of us have.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of this matters in terms of how the game will be reviewed or it's sales figures. Sadly most people just don't care. Just look at the problems GTA games have had with this sort of thing and it seems while there is a very vocal minority who do point out these issues, the majority just don't care and want to to enjoy the game regardless. I don't see Cyberpunk being much different. People will be blinded by it's technical brilliance and world building and forget/ignore the issues.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

There seems to be 2 arguments going on here at the same time.

Should games (and all media, such as films) that portray society, or a potential future society, also include the bad things about that society. Whether that's racism, sexism, anti-trans issues, etc. The answer should be very much yes imo.
There is a huge problem with the fetishisation of the LGBT+ community - Transwomen and Lesbians especially. In a future where the fabric of society has sort of broken down and body manipulation has become so easy, these issues would probably get worse not better. The game should absolutely be allowed to explore this and that may mean including characters and story lines that portray people who hold those shitty values as part of that story. Just look at films to see how many classics have some pretty shocking racist themes in them and people who sprout racist views, but would we want those removed because racism is bad? I'm sure there are people watching those films who cheer on the racists rather than realise they're meant to be the bad guy. Should you make decisions of what you put into media based on what the absolute worse of society might make of it?

The second argument is, are what CDPR doing with Cyberpunk there to shine a light on those issues and how they may evolve (for better or worse) in a Cyberpunk future, or because they have serious issues with LGBT+ people, ethnic minorities, etc. Their track record isn't very good to say the least and while there's no way to really know what a person can be thinking, I don't think it's much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that many of us have.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of this matters in terms of how the game will be reviewed or it's sales figures. Sadly most people just don't care. Just look at the problems GTA games have had with this sort of thing and it seems while there is a very vocal minority who do point out these issues, the majority just don't care and want to to enjoy the game regardless. I don't see Cyberpunk being much different. People will be blinded by it's technical brilliance and world building and forget/ignore the issues.

Click to shrink...

From basically what I have read in the thread it has come down to...

Yes companies should be allowed to explore it but not companies that haven't had a clear or positive record with those communities to begin with and have to be extremely careful to not go from exploring it to being shitty with it.

It seems to be a fine line with exposure and portraying a shitty future and adding to and continuing problems in the shitty present.

 

[TheMango55]

In addition to what the others who've responded to this post already said, I'll add that this specific outcome could have been potentially avoided had they also chosen to show off some of the more positive trans representations in the game, that I guess we're just supposed to take their word for. Not doing so was an exceedingly irresponsible move on CDPR's. It was a careless deployment of trans imagery with little regard for the thoughts and feelings of trans people.

Click to shrink...

What's the best way to show trans representation in a setting where people can change their bodies and voices almost at will?

And as I mentioned before, the character in this ad may not even be trans, but rather a cis woman with a prosthetic or implant.

 

[Amanita]

It's an ad in a future that's broken the gender binary but still uses sex to sell soda. If you think about it, the point is leftist as hell: what the ad implies is that even after you make social progress in gender issues, to the point where a woman with a penis in an ad is banal, you're still living under capitalism, so the normalization of the people you fought for will only lead to their exploitation and objectification by ad agencies.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's an ad in a future that's broken the gender binary but still uses sex to sell soda. If you think about it, the point is leftist as hell: what the ad implies is that even after you make social progress in gender issues, to the point where a woman with a penis in an ad is banal, you're still living under capitalism, so the normalization of the people you fought for will only lead to their exploitation and objectification by ad agencies.

Click to shrink...

Now it would be cool if in the full game they actually have characters who aren't portrayed in such a way but live in the world.

 

[Deleted member 37739]

From basically what I have read in the thread it has come down to...

Yes companies should be allowed to explore it but not companies that haven't had a clear or positive record with those communities to begin with and have to be extremely careful to not go from exploring it to being shitty with it.

It seems to be a fine line with exposure and portraying a shitty future and adding to and continuing problems in the shitty present.

Click to shrink...

It's a super interesting debate and one that as a writer and creator I do spend a lot of time thinking about. In principle, I'm very much in favour of freedom of expression, even for those with whom I disagree, and on a purely philosophical level, I feel like there should be no constraints whatsoever.

The practicalities, however, are very different, insofar as works with a particular reach have the power to negatively impact other people's freedoms and well-being, independent of their engagement with it.

The only way I've ever managed to rationalise it is to create a delineation between 'artistic works' and 'products'.

Art is one of those things that primarily is a matter of individual expression and it should - so far as possible - be allowed to exist with the minimum interference. But things on a larger scale, created by companies primarily as a source of income and sold in tens of millions to global markets, make more sense as a product.

Like all products, they should be subject to product development and, where appropriate, proper regulation. Most product development is subject to strict regulation, regardless of the artistry or creativity inherent to its development - food is a great example.

 

[Gestault]

From basically what I have read in the thread it has come down to...

Yes companies should be allowed to explore it but not companies that haven't had a clear or positive record with those communities to begin with and have to be extremely careful to not go from exploring it to being shitty with it.

It seems to be a fine line with exposure and portraying a shitty future and adding to and continuing problems in the shitty present.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, and I admit I'm saying this to sound a little dismissive toward you: Writing any mainstream fiction is hard because it's your job to take things like representation into consideration.

Writing fiction using real-world elements is dealing with powerful, loaded imagery and concepts. You bring in the real world because of those meanings, so even the impression they're being used flippantly is a red flag. And if a negative or fetishized stereotype of a targeted minority appears to be used uncritically, just as an extension of the author's own ignorance, that's a line that's easy to identify; it's not complicated to see for those painted with that brush. People will rightfully react and criticize you when you write poorly in that way.

And to be clear, I say it with that dismissive tone because you sound like someone giving a senseless amount of concern for CDPR/Cyberpunk, which specifically comes across as deflection from the actual issue.

 

[CopperPuppy]

The reasoning is cogent but, at the risk of sounding trite, the devil is in the details. I will remain cautiously hopeful that what she explained is borne out in the game itself, but I'm still very skeptical. The old gameplay demo was littered with edgy dialogue and stereotypes, plus it sounds like the majority of the non-white characters in the game are called one of "Voodoo Boys," "Animals," or "Poor Man."

So yeah. We'll see.

 

[oni-link]

Now it would be cool if in the full game they actually have characters who aren't portrayed in such a way but live in the world.

Click to shrink...

That would be cool

Let's hope it's the case

 

[Zhukov]

Just read this entire thread (phew) and can't help noticing something.

Almost every single person here (and on Twitter, from what I've seen) who identifies themselves as trans is unhappy with this. At best they're ambivalent. I saw a few who said something along the lines of "I could like this if it wasn't coming from a developer that has already pissed me off with their tweets." I saw maybe two who were unambiguously cool with it.

Meanwhile there's a veritable avalanche of people who have not identified themselves as trans (some of them could be of course, but I don't think it's a stretch to guess that the overwhelming majority of them are cis) saying what a good explanation this is and how everything makes sense now and how they knew it all along and everyone was jumping to conclusions and... you get the idea.

I get the distinct impression many of the latter group were desperate for any reason that would let them buy and enjoy the shiny new digital toy without that guilty little notion that it might clash with your values. To the point of ignoring the voices of those being portrayed in this instance.

For a forum that claims to be so very progressive and concerned with the perspective of vulnerable minorities, this is, shall we say... maybe not the best look?

 

[FFNB]

This is actually the first I'm hearing about this ad, but not the first I'm hearing of CD Projekt's problematic history.

I'm much more interested in hearing what the transgender community has to say about this and their response. I think her reasoning behind the ad makes sense to me, but I can't divorce it from CD Projekt's previous actions/comments.

As excited as I am for Cyberpunk, I have a big issue with how they've represented minority groups in their past games, and with Cyberpunk as well.

Just brushing off the people that are upset about this ad and the poor way CDPR has handled representation isn't the way to go. If people are upset, don't get defensive. Actually listen to what they're saying, and why it upsets them. As a black male in America, I'm all too familiar with having your voice shouted down or ignored because "thing you like," isn't getting slobbering praise from marginalized groups sick of how they're being represented (or not represented at all), in said thing.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

Honestly, and I admit I'm saying this to sound a little dismissive toward you: Writing any mainstream fiction is hard because it's your job to take things like representation into consideration.

Writing fiction using real-world elements is dealing with powerful, loaded imagery and concepts. You bring in the real world because of those meanings, so even the impression they're being used flippantly is a red flag. And if a negative or fetishized stereotype of a targeted minority appears to be used uncritically, just as an extension of the author's own ignorance, that's a line that's easy to identify; it's not complicated to see for those painted with that brush. People will rightfully react and criticize you when you write poorly in that way.

And to be clear, I say it with that dismissive tone because you sound like someone giving a senseless amount of concern for CDPR/Cyberpunk, which specifically comes across as deflection from the actual issue.

Click to shrink...

I am not personally concerned for CDPR or the game or really their funding. I was talking more so from the side of how they are thinking about it. Being a realist about it. I don't care if Cyberpunk sells a single copy. I know they do and I know that they will try and mitigate any financial losses as possible and was talking about how they might actually react etc.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

Just read this entire thread (phew) and can't help noticing something.

Almost every single person here (and on Twitter, from what I've seen) who identifies themselves as trans is unhappy with this. At best they're ambivalent. I saw a few who said something along the lines of "I could like this if it wasn't coming from a developer that has already pissed me off with their tweets." I saw maybe two who were unambiguously cool with it.

Meanwhile there's a veritable avalanche of people who have not identified themselves as trans (some of them could be of course, but I don't think it's a stretch to guess that the overwhelming majority of them are cis) saying what a good explanation this is and how everything makes sense now and how they knew it all along and everyone was jumping to conclusions and... you get the idea.

I get the distinct impression many of the latter group were desperate for any reason that would let them buy and enjoy the shiny new digital toy without that guilty little notion that it might clash with your values. To the point of ignoring the voices of those being portrayed in this instance.

For a forum that claims to be so very progressive and concerned with the perspective of vulnerable minorities, this is, shall we say... maybe not the best look?

Click to shrink...

That's how the world is for, honestly almost everything.

People who aren't part of the effected group have trouble identifying with the pain and why things like this really effects said groups. Some have the ability to listen and recognize but sadly, most people really don't.

A lot of people sadly have the "I don't personally see an issue with it therefore it doesn't effect me". Some do it out of ignorance others do it because they are trying to be ignorant to protect themselves from how terrible the world is. Which isn't right.

 

[Nerokis]

The issues I have with this situation:

1) the explanation could more or less work within the context of the game, but ironically enough, what we have here is a company (that has had issues with transphobia in the past) bandying the picture about IRL to market their game

2) even within the in-universe context, it seems like a slightly weird picture in that it almost feels like it's breaking the fourth wall by speaking to CDPR's perception of audience expectations, as opposed to contributing to the sense that this is a society where high levels of gender fluidity is highly normalized

3) the "man, woman, and everything in-between" rhetoric doesn't give me a lot of confidence that the picture was made after a conscious effort to look into trans issues and perspectives

4) the hypersexualization angle begs to be fleshed out a bit, and also reads as cute considering CDPR's history with sexualization (including in their marketing of this very game)

It's not inherently a bad picture. You can imagine a context in which it's fun, empowering, and conflicted in an interesting way all at once, a decent amount of trans people have been able to do exactly that, and even with everything I've said above I could definitely enjoy the overall vibe of a game (even this one) that emphasizes gender fluidity and features massive, veiny dicks.

I'm having a hard time not seeing this as another sign that the game is going to disappoint across multiple levels, though.

 

[Apollo]

What's the best way to show trans representation in a setting where people can change their bodies and voices almost at will?

And as I mentioned before, the character in this ad may not even be trans, but rather a cis woman with a prosthetic or implant.

Click to shrink...

It literally does not matter if the woman in the ad is cis with a prosthetic or not. It's still relying on trans imagery. It's still pairing a picture of a woman with a penis with a portmanteau of "chromosome" and "manticore".

And while we may not generally be able to do it with the ease of those in a cyberpunk setting... trans people already change their bodies and their voices if they deem it necessary and have the means to do so.

 

[TheMango55]

And while we may not generally be able to do it with the ease of those in a cyberpunk setting... trans people already change their bodies and their voices if they deem it necessary and have the means to do so.

Click to shrink...

I'm not trying to belittle the efforts and struggles of trans people in our world, I'm genuinely curious how to give noticeable trans representation in a world where trans people are visually and possibly even biologically indistinguishable.

I mean consider how hamfisted BioWare did trans representation in Andromeda with a character deadnaming herself to a stranger, which was dumb and offensive, but without that the trans representation included wouldn't have been visible at all. So what's the best way to do it?

 

[Wamb0wneD]

I thought it was absolute trash back then, but what do I know, I'm just a faggot, right?

Click to shrink...

How did you read what they said and immediately went in this direction? I get being cautious of how these themes are handled in different media, what I don't get is going down this route. That poster never implied wanting to call you the f-slur, nor did anything in their post suggest they hold an opinion like that. This going from 0 to 150% is not helping discourse, at all.

 

[Tovarisc]

with most other companies this wouldn't get as much attention, but this is CDPR we're talking about so... yeah

Click to shrink...

I can see that. Naughty Dog does this as ad in their cyberpunk themed game and people just shrug it away with "Questionable, but lets wait and see how they handle topic as a whole in full product".

Benefit of doubt and all that CDPR has lost with social media fuck ups.

Wait... the game's character creator doesn't offer trans and non-binary options?

Click to shrink...

We don't know for 100% certainty. Last year they were open to idea, this year we are yet to have update on state of CC or what CDPR plans to do it to still.

...plus it sounds like the majority of the non-white characters in the game are called one of "Voodoo Boys," "Animals," or "Poor Man."

Click to shrink...

Voodoo Boys and Animals are two gangs, Poor Man was name / nickname of some character. This is just in one out of 6 districts + outskirts. There is whole district to where people from Asian background has settled down to. I bet dominant gang in that part of city will be some take on Yakuza.

Other than that isn't it tad large generalization to say that majority non-white persons in Night City are gang members and criminals?

 

[Apollo]

I'm not trying to belittle the efforts and struggles of trans people in our world, I'm genuinely curious how to give noticeable trans representation in a world where trans people are visually and possibly even biologically indistinguishable.

I mean consider how hamfisted BioWare did trans representation in Andromeda with a character deadnaming herself to a stranger, which was dumb and offensive, but without that the trans representation included wouldn't have been visible at all. So what's the best way to do it?

Click to shrink...

for a start they could show an understanding that the existence of trans people is not an inherently sexual one. they could have important, visibly trans characters. they could make sure they have trans sensitivity readers/testers- i'm just a trans person commenting in her spare time, but there are people they can pay to do this so much better than I can

 

[Deleted member 5549]

How did you read what they said and immediately went in this direction? I get being cautious of how these themes are handled in different media, what I don't get is going down this route. That poster never implied wanting to call you the f-slur, nor did anything in their post suggest they hold an opinion like that. This going from 0 to 150% is not helping discourse, at all.

Click to shrink...

it's easier to bait the ones that just want to troll instead of wasting 5 pages of just asking questions.

 

[BossAttack]

Reminds me of those claims that the misogyny in GTA was "satirical" then it's just basically played straight.

Click to shrink...

LOL! GTA as a whole is basically "S A T I R E."
Of course, I'm not sure anyone at the studio actually understands what the word means.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

it's easier to bait the ones that just want to troll instead of wasting 5 pages of just asking questions.

Click to shrink...

And trying to bait people is ok now? By randomly putting slurs in their mouth? Maybe reconsider that approach again lol.

 

[Deleted member 5549]

And trying to bait people is ok now? By randomly putting slurs in their mouth? Maybe reconsider that approach again lol.

Click to shrink...

I gave it a shot, it didn't work out as well as I thought. whoops! :)

 

[Messofanego]

Is there a photo of CD Projekt Red parading around this trans poster IRL at E3? I didn't even know they went there, WTF.

 

[Deleted member 5549]

Is there a photo of CD Projekt Red parading around this trans poster IRL at E3? I didn't even know they went there, WTF.

Click to shrink...

picture is in the article: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-the-artist-behind-that-cyberpunk-2077-poster

 

[Gestault]

And trying to bait people is ok now? By randomly putting slurs in their mouth? Maybe reconsider that approach again lol.

Click to shrink...

They said what they did out of frustration to highlight that they, as a person in the group being discussed, always thought things like Bruno were junk. The other person was characterizing Borat/Bruno as though it was universally loved to "prove" their point about crass stereotypes being fine. They weren't implying the other person called them that.

 

[Deleted member 49438]

Maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I think it's important to differentiate between CD Projekt Red's social media team & the actual people working on the game. My understanding is that CDPR's social media team has made some really poor and offensive attempts at humor that the LGBTQ+ community got rightfully incensed over. But have they ever had transphobic content in their games?

I know the way they handle Geralt sleeping with women in some of the early games is pretty damn crass, but that's the worst I can recall from what I've played of their games. So while I understand people feel the need to hold CDPR on a short leash due to the past issues on their twitter, I wouldn't say they have the same issues as like Atlus with Persona 5 & Catherine that have homophobic content in their game outright.

Of course, we'll have to see how this explanation holds up as we learn more about the world the game takes place in. For now though I am giving their dev team the benefit of the doubt, as I only have past beef with CDPR's past social media gaffes.

 

[CopperPuppy]

Other than that isn't it tad large generalization to say that majority non-white persons in Night City are gang members and criminals?

Click to shrink...

It's what we have been shown thus far, so at this point? No.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

A friend and one of the most prominent trans voices in journalism (especially games journalism) just posted this piece, and it's a highly recommended read because she is super fab at dissecting these kinds of issues, exploring their nuances, and just generally at her job as a writer:

https://www.dailydot.com/irl/cyberpunk-2077-transphobic-ad/

Some great quotes from the article are:
-"In other words, the ad isn't jarring because of its capitalist ideals. It's because of its trans model's penis."
-"So for players who read the model as a trans woman, it's as if she's visibly thrusting one of her most stigmatized body parts onto others, like she wants the viewer to recognize her penis in its entire length and girth. It makes the model, not the society they live in, seem predatory."
-"Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society."
"But it's unlikely that Cyberpunk 2077 will bring about the change Cole or Baker-Whitelaw want, because its own creator seems happy with capitalism as it stands today."
-"So before CD Projekt starts playing with gender in hamfisted ways, perhaps the company should look to itself, and question whether it's perpetuating the very same capitalist dystopian fantasy Cyberpunk 2077 is, on the surface, trying to critique."

Click to shrink...

That article is so fucking good and articulates some of my problems with the in-game ad and the artist's justifications/intentions.

Eurogamer have spoke to her as well

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-the-artist-behind-that-cyberpunk-2077-poster

Click to shrink...

We have a character creator where you can mix up appearance and voice options and make the character you want to play. And, of course, through gameplay you can roleplay the character you want through your interactions with NPCs.

Click to shrink...

Then they need to fucking show it! Gaming "journalism" is a joke when major outlets like Polygon and Eurogamer won't call them out and just interview and report passively. Someone get a trans person to sit down with the artist and CDPR and really ask the tough questions.

 

[Miracle Ache]

Intention doesn't matter when it's the execution that's harmful.

 

[Kyuuji]

picture is in the article: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-the-artist-behind-that-cyberpunk-2077-poster

Click to shrink...

Huh, so that's where all the "you're taking this advert outside of the context of the game" posters went lol.

I wonder how many at E3 are seeing it and pondering the issues that trans and non-binary people face and how many are glancing at it and thinking "lol, chick with a dick" and noting the aesthetic.

 

[Kinthey]

It's in the area journalists went right before seeing the demo, so is that even accessible to the public?

https://m.ign.com/articles/2019/06/11/cyberpunk-2077s-e3-booth-is-a-crazy-sci-fi-dive-bar-e3-2019

Also the point is to give the illusion that people are in a bar in Night City, so doesn't it make sense to have all these ads on the wall?

 

[Kyuuji]

It's in the area journalists went right before seeing the demo, so is that even accessible to the public?

Also the point is to give the illusion that people are in a bar in Night City, so doesn't it make sense to have all these ads on the wall?

Click to shrink...

My thought wasn't limited to the general public, just those at E3 in the vicinity of it. I don't mind whether it's a bar or not, the point on whether any nuance is conveyed still stands since that's the alleged defense and reasoning for this thing.

 

[Kinthey]

My thought wasn't limited to the general public, just those at E3 in the vicinity of it. I don't mind whether it's a bar or not, the point on whether any nuance is conveyed still stands since that's the alleged defense and reasoning for this thing.

Click to shrink...

It looks like an area that has it's own entrance, so people probably won't get random glances of the poster. There are other extreme advertisement there as well (3 mouthed lady) so I'd say that puts it right in the context of exploitation.

 

[Kyuuji]

It looks like an area that has it's own entrance, so people probably won't get random glances of the poster. There are other extreme advertisement there as well (3 mouthed lady) so I'd say that puts it right in the context of exploitation.

Click to shrink...

I mean I assume it's going to be seen by people otherwise why have it there? Those people that do see it, the same thing; will they pause and consider the issues that trans and non-binary people face or will they think something akin to "lol, chick with a dick" and note the aesthetic.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

They said what they did out of frustration to highlight that they, as a person in the group being discussed, always thought things like Bruno were junk. The other person was characterizing Borat/Bruno as though it was universally loved to "prove" their point about crass stereotypes being fine. They weren't implying the other person called them that.

Click to shrink...

They literally said "...but what do I know, I'm just a faggot, right?". That's not just implying but straight up acting like the other person said it. They also admitted to trying to bait people and got warned for it. So...

 

[Messofanego]

picture is in the article: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-the-artist-behind-that-cyberpunk-2077-poster

Click to shrink...

Wow.