I mean, hasn't what they've shown done just that? I mean the entire game is about cancerous corporations exploiting this city and you are very specifically fighting against it.
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Polygon: CDPR responds to sexualized trans advertisement in CyberPunk 2077 (Read Staff Post Before Posting)
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I mean, hasn't what they've shown done just that? I mean the entire game is about cancerous corporations exploiting this city and you are very specifically fighting against it.
I think CDPR will do a good job of handling this sort of topic in their world, given the context provided in this instance. I understand how people may have been upset by it initially but the ad didn't ever strike me as mean or like they intended to offend people. My initial take was that the dick was comically large and it was a form of meta commentary on body modification, which the world is supposed to heavily revolve around.
I do hope that the English dialogue isn't as rough as it has been so far, and CDPR remains open regarding discussions like this. I wasn't really expecting them to comment on it but given the marketing behind the image I suppose they needed to say something, and the response provides a good deal of information IMO.
I do hope that the English dialogue isn't as rough as it has been so far, and CDPR remains open regarding discussions like this. I wasn't really expecting them to comment on it but given the marketing behind the image I suppose they needed to say something, and the response provides a good deal of information IMO.
Appeals to fictional settings and fictional
people in response to actual real maginalized people saying a thing is hurtful or reinforces negative stereotypes is never acceptable. Minorities are always put through the "well not every (minority) feels that way so checkmate, the cis/white chorus in the room know better." obstacle course.
Always weaponizing the minority of the minority against themselves, it's so old.
people in response to actual real maginalized people saying a thing is hurtful or reinforces negative stereotypes is never acceptable. Minorities are always put through the "well not every (minority) feels that way so checkmate, the cis/white chorus in the room know better." obstacle course.
Always weaponizing the minority of the minority against themselves, it's so old.
I dont think we can make that judgment until we play the game. That can be the premise of the game but the ad doesn't show any realy purpose until its context is actually realized int he game itself.
I didn't comment in the other thread because I wanted to see what CDPR's response was first.q
However, my thinking was that it was supposed to be offensive for the very reasons she has outlined.
Plus, cyberpunk always has this underlying idea of evil corporations exploiting humans for body mods etc.
Like you say, they know it is offensive and the purpose of them showing this is to present it as a social commentary about sexualisation.
1000x all of this
Like hey trans people have to be on guard for shit like this every single day. Don't tell them not to be concerned about things, don't jump on them for "jumping to conclusions", don't tell them they're just looking to be outraged. And until I see how they handle gender issues outside of this ad I reaaaally don't want to give them any benefit of the doubt because their handling of race within the game so far has not been good at all- why would I assume they'd handle trans people any better?
Agreed. Considering their track record i don't trust them at all with handling these topics.
They couldn't even keep the female V for merchandising, and turned back to the male generic character we've seen a thousand times.
No worries, she actually has a pretty heartwarming story from cancer survivor to a main role at CDPR
Kind of puts things into perspective when people can use the internet to be soo quick to judge a person before they're even able to answer or speak.
Why is her story or position at the company relevant? Well, if we're all going to engage in assuming someone must be a terrible person from the get go, it can end up not being that way sometimes. It doesn't mean you have to retroactively agree with her artistic intentions, but maybe hold off calling someone alt-right and some of the shit from the other topic before you even know who they are?
And she likes cats. Most people who like cats tend to be good people. It's a fact.
To date, we've seen 3 or 4 CGI trailers, one 50 minute alpha demo and another demo that we are just getting leaked details from.
The reality is, everyone is assuming how they're going to tackle an extremely complex issue. It's not like they've made this the forefront of their marketing one way or another, we've seen a screen capture from a marketing video for video cards.
That's not to say they will or won't handle the topic appropriately, however I think it's a little early to assume how they will address it. Obviously the Witcher has a misogynist lead and they've had issues with social media in the past, but in a vacuum looking at this image it's a hyper-sexualized advertisement which is unlikely to be restricted to transgender characters. Whether that is a problem or not, I guess is up to the individual.
I agree with your point, however, the specific example isn't one you want to use.....
I don't want to comment on whether CDPR is right or not. You may very well be right that this will be a problem even after the full context of the game. I'll wait to play it to make that judgment and line up alongside you if it turns out you're right. But I do think you're incorrect in this part.
This kind of satire can be very effective. If people see "normal" fetishization to such a degree in this game that it becomes disturbing, they will recognize the message the game is sending. If they then see "abnormal" fetishization, they will be much more likely to make the connection between the "normal" and the "abnormal" and come to the conclusion that the fetishization is wrong even as applied to a type of person they might not normally have compassion for. Will this happen here? I don't know. But it could.
The intent of a person you've never met was obvious? This could have gone either way in terms of intent. I'm happy to see that it seems like they were thinking about the nuance here.
The image reads identically to current-day trans fetishization. That isn't representative of corporate co-opting of trans identity, it's just the same shitty exploitation. If you were to write a satirical ad about, say, corporate co-opting of racial identity, you might write something like "Black Lives Matter - which is why we're proud to sell Pepsi Black!" You would not depict sambo imagery.
I really like her statement and I completely believe her, and while CDPR's past involving the transgender community has been rough to say the least, her description of corporate hypersexualization extending beyond binary sexes is super intriguing and actually fairly progressive in my opinion.
I think, unless they do something completely irredeemable, we should give the benefit of the doubt, or at least allow them to explain themselves. This isn't a "did you just assume my gender" joke, this is actually really cool world building. I don't give a shit about CDPR, I never got into The Witcher, but stuff like this makes the world that they're building seem super interesting, and if this whole "people vs. corporations" is pulled off well, this game could show something we haven't really seen in games.
I think, unless they do something completely irredeemable, we should give the benefit of the doubt, or at least allow them to explain themselves. This isn't a "did you just assume my gender" joke, this is actually really cool world building. I don't give a shit about CDPR, I never got into The Witcher, but stuff like this makes the world that they're building seem super interesting, and if this whole "people vs. corporations" is pulled off well, this game could show something we haven't really seen in games.
Oh, I hadn't considered that... Here's to hoping the game (somehow...) manages to contextualize it properly to avoid such (mis)readings.
I don't want to dismiss your concerns, but wouldn't that, if done properly, actually allow CDPR to contextualize and critique trans fetishization? (Whether CDPR would manage to pull that off is a different question though.)
What, you mean it's okay when we don't know who someone is to hurl everything possible at them but when they finally state who they are and talk about something, it's suddenly not fair to provide any supporting evidence they might not be a colossal piece of shit?
And here I would think people would appreciate some evidence who's handling this seems on the surface to be a decent person who's had their own life battles and might be able to empathize with others.
If you note, I said in my post just because she doesn't appear to be a piece of shit doesn't mean you have to be forced to agree with her intent, but instead I just hope it's yet another lesson in engaging in assumption making and accusing on the internet when there is still a chance evidence might come in you're not 100% correct in your judgement.
So it's basically what I assumed on the other thread. Its fetishized but done to depict an out of control capitalist nightmare.
I honestly don't mean the following to be transphobic or attempting erasure because representation is important and trans people in the real world need FAR more representation than they get. Therefore the following is totally irrelevant to our world and only applies to the fictional setting.
But I don't know if you could really do transgender representation well in CP77 because the entire concept might be pretty outdated. If you are born the wrong sex you can literally build yourself a new body, and it's not something that is othered or decriminated against because everyone builds themselves a new body.
BioWare had the same problem by trying to positively depict trans people in andromeda but hamfisted it by having a character deadname herself to a total stranger. It was a totally offensive fuckup but it's also pretty difficult to try to give noticeable representation when medical technology allows everyone to pass.
I don't even think the model is necessarily supposed to be trans. I think in this world with the body mods and whatnot that this is most likely a cis woman with a prosthetic.
I honestly don't mean the following to be transphobic or attempting erasure because representation is important and trans people in the real world need FAR more representation than they get. Therefore the following is totally irrelevant to our world and only applies to the fictional setting.
But I don't know if you could really do transgender representation well in CP77 because the entire concept might be pretty outdated. If you are born the wrong sex you can literally build yourself a new body, and it's not something that is othered or decriminated against because everyone builds themselves a new body.
BioWare had the same problem by trying to positively depict trans people in andromeda but hamfisted it by having a character deadname herself to a total stranger. It was a totally offensive fuckup but it's also pretty difficult to try to give noticeable representation when medical technology allows everyone to pass.
I don't even think the model is necessarily supposed to be trans. I think in this world with the body mods and whatnot that this is most likely a cis woman with a prosthetic.
This defeats the purpose of asking for an explanation. You're not interested in having a discussion, you're interested in people not being angry about alleged isms, which is your prerogative.
But I'll be over here, asking people to explain why they can't seem to write people of color with any due care, and I won't be waiting for whenever some third party deems it the appropriate time to have the conversation. The appropriate time will always be immediately.
We're done here.
I don't think they deserve the benefit of the doubt and I will not give it to them. They haven't earned it and they have repeatedly shown they don't care, maybe the game will do it well but right now even with this explanation it doesn't make me feel any better about them.
That's what I'm wondering about. Can I body mod V into the opposite gender I started as? That would rock.
It was a reasoned explanation. I think we will have to see how this game plays out as whole to see full intentions. This will most likely be an rpg of insurmountable scale so after playing through it we might all be like "holy shit I get what she was saying" or we might say "holy shit I didn't get that at all after playing through the story." Time will tell.
Probably would depend on story/gameplay integration as it would have to explain how people can recognize V from their initial appearance.
Bioshock Infinite isn't a satire about how positive Black identity is suborned into commercialism. When it depicts racist imagery it depicts this "utopian" version of the American past as intrinsically, horrifically racist and oppressive. If you think this ad is equivalent to the imagery of Bioshock Infinite, then Redesiuk's defense makes no sense, and should be regarded as very suspicious.
Bioshock Infinite is also an example of a game where the writers tried to be explicitly anti-racist ("all this racism is awful") and still ended up being fairly racist (you have no agency in the game to do anything about all that racism, and the Vox Populi immediately betray you and start committing destructive violence the moment they get any power, BOTH SIDES guys).
User Banned (3 Days): Drive-by trolling in a sensitive thread. Ignoring mod post.
I don't get the controversy
I like the artist's response but I can't help but think the game is going to do a bad job of contextualizing this outlook in the wider game. The treatment of the voodoo boys (as discussed in the thread about the RPS experience with the demo) takes them from a commentary on privileged white students of the frat-boy variety engaging in cultural appropriation to just replicating stereotypes of black culture and criminality.
Often it is necessary to highlight or demonstrate examples of offensive content in order to discuss and criticize it. This has to be done with care. My agreement with the artist on her art and the points she wished to make should not be taken as a defense of the use of that art in the game or any of the content surrounding it. I don't trust CDPR as a whole to handle the issue well given that no other potentially offensive aspects of the game seem to have been given this level of consideration.
Often it is necessary to highlight or demonstrate examples of offensive content in order to discuss and criticize it. This has to be done with care. My agreement with the artist on her art and the points she wished to make should not be taken as a defense of the use of that art in the game or any of the content surrounding it. I don't trust CDPR as a whole to handle the issue well given that no other potentially offensive aspects of the game seem to have been given this level of consideration.
Man, come on. This means nothing without further context on how trans people are represented in the game outside of these advertisements. Why are people just taking her words at face value and assuming positive intent? If this is all the representation we trans people get in the game then it's still farcical bullshit.
I just can't give them the benefit of the doubt at this point. When they quite literally could not even conceive of the idea of letting players play as non-binary individuals for the game's character creation, how can you not at least be skeptical over the potential direction they could take for trans representation in the NPCs? Not to mention how they're treating the Haitians...
I just don't get it, man. It's just empty bluster at this point. They really, really do not deserve such an easy pass.
I just can't give them the benefit of the doubt at this point. When they quite literally could not even conceive of the idea of letting players play as non-binary individuals for the game's character creation, how can you not at least be skeptical over the potential direction they could take for trans representation in the NPCs? Not to mention how they're treating the Haitians...
I just don't get it, man. It's just empty bluster at this point. They really, really do not deserve such an easy pass.
First, because you're not the only person posting "this is just from a screenshot from a video card company", that screenshot is something they chose to promote and that ad is posted inside their E3 booth. Downplaying the source like that is bullshit.
People think it will be handled poorly because CD Projekt Red has a bad track record on this stuff and hasn't remotely proven that they can be trusted in this regard.
And if you think the problem is going to be relieved by adding a bunch of hypersexualized images of other people elsewhere on the gender spectrum, I suspect you don't actually understand the problem from the jump.
Doesn't Poland have free healthcare?No worries, she actually has a pretty heartwarming story from cancer survivor to a main role at CDPR
Kind of puts things into perspective when people can use the internet to be soo quick to judge a person before they're even able to answer or speak.
Why is her story or position at the company relevant? Well, if we're all going to engage in assuming someone must be a terrible person from the get go, it can end up not being that way sometimes. It doesn't mean you have to retroactively agree with her artistic intentions, but maybe hold off calling someone alt-right and some of the shit from the other topic before you even know who they are?
And she likes cats. Most people who like cats tend to be good people. It's a fact.
While I didn't comment in the Original Thread, one thing sounds hollow to me.
The response says there are a lot of nonbinary people with considerable buying power. Will we get to see any of them?
This ties into a bigger question. Does any of this intriguing world building actually translate to the game? Because up until now I haven't seen any of it.
The response says there are a lot of nonbinary people with considerable buying power. Will we get to see any of them?
This ties into a bigger question. Does any of this intriguing world building actually translate to the game? Because up until now I haven't seen any of it.
If you don't value your life or can wait a year or two in queue to see a specialist, then yes, it does. Otherwise pay up to see somebody privately asap.
No worries, she actually has a pretty heartwarming story from cancer survivor to a main role at CDPR
Kind of puts things into perspective when people can use the internet to be soo quick to judge a person before they're even able to answer or speak.
Why is her story or position at the company relevant? Well, if we're all going to engage in assuming someone must be a terrible person from the get go, it can end up not being that way sometimes. It doesn't mean you have to retroactively agree with her artistic intentions, but maybe hold off calling someone alt-right and some of the shit from the other topic before you even know who they are?
And she likes cats. Most people who like cats tend to be good people. It's a fact.
Dogs > Cats
You know it's true.
Her reasoning does make sense for the setting. But considering how trans acceptance and whatnot is right now, I don't think it is the best choice.
I think right now if games are gonna have trans characters or images in them they should just be positive ones.
I think right now if games are gonna have trans characters or images in them they should just be positive ones.
Those calculating bastards saw this coming and had the artist on standby to deflect criticism. She isn't in charge of the game and doesn't get to dictate how everything is contextualized in the story. Also she conflates gender-noncomformity with trans identities so she doesn't know her shit.
If CDPR really gave a shit, they'd talk about and show positive trans and LGBTQ+ representation in the game. The character creator shown thus far enforces the gender binary and they only feature a man protagonist in the promo material.
If CDPR really gave a shit, they'd talk about and show positive trans and LGBTQ+ representation in the game. The character creator shown thus far enforces the gender binary and they only feature a man protagonist in the promo material.
> please don't say something like "see it was fine in context
The fuck is this? Would it be easier if you just created a poll with the acceptable takes that we can just vote on, then?
The fuck is this? Would it be easier if you just created a poll with the acceptable takes that we can just vote on, then?
Exactly this right here.
How can anyone accept this reasoning when they don't seem to walk the walk in any of their promotional materials? The ONLY representation of trans people we get in this game so far is... this fetishized marketing bullshit. How am I supposed to give them the benefit of the doubt when that's all we have?
This is quite possibly the biggest expression of racist imagery in Bioshock Infinite:
It is striking. Heck, some politicians actually used it unironically.
However, it didn't need explanation because we knew what it was being used to and why it was supposed to be shocking about it: in Bioshock, you had an "apparent" conservative utopia lost in nationalist values. It was clear from the get-go that your enemy was the group holding those values, not to mention that the game was linear and was released in 2013.
Cyberpunk 2077 is not out yet, obviously, but aside from the idea that big corporations are evil (which is weird considering how many people in this thread are willing to defend a company), there is not a lot of discourse that reinforces the idea that the game itself is commenting on those issues. Also, the depiction in Bioshock, as you can see, is clearly visual and exaggerated: every minority is ugly and dark. There is almost no undertone. In the advert seen in Cyberpunk, we see something that, were it not for the bulge, would be completely acceptable (if you consider the other materials from the game and the history of the company).
And that is the thing with satire: it doesn't matter where your heart is if you can't execute it in a way that doesn't just reinforce it.
A good example:
It was supposed to be satire, but it didn't really work. It's not that it wasn't obvious, but the overarching message just didn't come across very well. David Remnick thought it would work. It didn't. Satire isn't just doing the same offensive thing with a good intention.
Its hard to take at face value when this is our first glimpse at a gender non-conforming/trans person in the setting. 3 trailers and a gameplay video with no representation, suddenly trans person with comedically sized genitalia. Really doesn't paint a good picture imo
I was just more using it as an example of artist using stereotypical racist imagery as a vehicle to provide commentary or a lenses into the viewpoint of the world the game resides it. An that it does happen. Now millage may very one the end result. Not necessary using it as a direct equivalent but more as a reasonable conclusion. Since we know that from the artist perspective that it was not meant as a joke or full on satire. But as a window into the no binary aspects of the cyberpunk world itself, with all its transhumanismism themes and non conformity towards particular traditional gender modifications. That are popular in that world, seemingly speaking and so corporations are latching on to it. I mean none of it is far fetched.
Although i think Bio shock infinite was trying to create duality scenario/narrative. But they certainly didn't quite understand how to execute it without jumping into non agency. To compile the change in conflict, especially in the context of anti slavery and racism. Now i may need to re-watch some videos on that game, to refresh. Thank you.
-CDPR has a bad record with these themes
-Both due to CDPR's previous work and what's been shown of 2077 so far, people feel 2077 won't be doing enough to represent LGBTQ+ people well.
-"It's supposed to be offensive" only works if the game manages to contextualize that offensiveness in a way that criticizes it.
-Some people think that the ad can be interpreted differently than what this developer said was the intention, and aren't convinced the game will portray it properly.
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As a trans person I don't agree with the art per se but I could live with the first part of her explanation because we see some of this stuff already in society today on all fronts. It would thematically track because I don't see this issue being resolved any time soon, sadly.
What I really take issue with is that Redisuk said "I honestly think we need it because we need more acceptance in the world, and we need to also show how the goodness of people is sometimes used against them."
Ads like this do not breed acceptance in any form. It contributes further towards a growing fetishism of trans people, which can be easily seen by the growing popularity of it on porn streaming services. All of it generally leads to people jerking off over us but then taking away our rights.
If the artists goal was to help usher in a wave of acceptance they are doing it wrong and claiming otherwise is disingenuous in my opinion. Pair that with previous statements made by the company via Twitter and it feels like another not so subtle jab at trans women.
What I really take issue with is that Redisuk said "I honestly think we need it because we need more acceptance in the world, and we need to also show how the goodness of people is sometimes used against them."
Ads like this do not breed acceptance in any form. It contributes further towards a growing fetishism of trans people, which can be easily seen by the growing popularity of it on porn streaming services. All of it generally leads to people jerking off over us but then taking away our rights.
If the artists goal was to help usher in a wave of acceptance they are doing it wrong and claiming otherwise is disingenuous in my opinion. Pair that with previous statements made by the company via Twitter and it feels like another not so subtle jab at trans women.