Polygon: CDPR responds to sexualized trans advertisement in CyberPunk 2077 (Read Staff Post Before Posting)

[dude]

This defeats the purpose of asking for an explanation. You're not interested in having a discussion, you're interested in people not being angry about alleged isms, which is your prerogative.

But I'll be over here, asking people to explain why they can't seem to write people of color with any due care, and I won't be waiting for whenever some third party deems it the appropriate time to have the conversation. The appropriate time will always be immediately.

We're done here.

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You can be done, sure, but I'm not writing this just for you, so I'll write my piece as long as I have something to say. I'm guessing your prerogative is being rude and arrogant - You're assuming my intentions even though I've explained my reasoning.
I'm very much for discussing these things in full, and having a conversation right now - and I agree there are plenty of concerning things so far in what we've seen of the game, but demanding explanation is not a conversation, it's an accusation. And when we jump to the accusation part without having the actual work to substantiate it - We're not actually furthering anything.
You disagree with all that? Quite alright, but don't assume my intentions are the worst. Just disagree and move on or debate my actual point without flinging shit at me.

 

[SugarNoodles]

true, very true.

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CDPR has already had plenty of chances to change. This is a blatant call for disregarding all evidence out of convenience.

 

[ThreepQuest64]

Sounds reasonable.

 

[motherless]

It never was a problem and I don't digest media (Movies, music, games, etc) with the hopes of always being "comfortable". In fact part of what often makes or adds to something is having many uncomfortable aspects.

 

[Aurica]

Not everyone who sides with the artist is a cisgendered alt right member, and not everyone who disagrees with her is a melodramatic snowflake looking to be offended.

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I don't think that, but the last thread was full of people just going, "Ridiculous that people are offended." This happens in every thread about marginalized groups being threatened, fetishized, arrested, depicted offensively, etc.
I ultimately believe in the artist, and I hope the game world is as in line with her statements as she makes it seem. I'm not entirely convinced that the factors outside of her control will be so progressive.

 

[Barry Sandwich]

I think that is a reasonable response, but best wait for the full game to see how well it communicates the intent.

 

[House_Of_Lightning]

Honestly, it seems like a similar add such as this.

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Also tasteless attempt to use sex and the female body to sell sugar water.

 

[Yasuke]

but demanding explanation is not a conversation, it's an accusation.

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No, it isn't. It's asking for an explanation.

You completely misreading that tonally as some sort of accusation when all I ever did was ask for clarity on something that troubles me is completely a you issue.

When people are bothered by things, you let them ask about it. Quit policing people's reasonable reactions to troubling content from someone who doesn't have a great track record as is. That's arrogant.

 

[Nightwing123]

Personally I think it's a good answer and the intent behind the design was good, but the game is doing a terrible job at doing anything meaningful with it, and people are rightfully wary about it.

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Her logic is fair and I imagine she's doing it with good intentions but I don't think the whole world of Cyberpunk from what we've seen is up to the task of making such an ad work in context without losing its message. A lot of the gratuitous violence and obscenity we've seen thus far in the game seems like it's there for the purpose of shocking the viewer first and foremost and what we've seen doesn't have the subtlety necessary to make such messages clear and worth investigating for players. I feel the net harm of perpetuating these harmful modern stereotypes overrides the positive and interesting concepts she wanted to depict.

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This is basically where I'm at. Intentions may be nice but unless these themes actually get explored in the game it's not gonna land well with me. Hopefully, they do end up showing this in the game instead of just telling us things in PR as lip service. I'm still going to be very wary about this game's depiction of minorities.

 

[Four-Eyes]

I don't think that, but the last thread was full of people just going, "Ridiculous that people are offended." This happens in every thread about marginalized groups being threatened, fetishized, arrested, etc.

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It also had a number of members from marginalised groups, and cis individuals, speaking over those who had a different opinion. You'll have to forgive for me being a bit rankled here.

 

[SugarNoodles]

I trust in their previous games and how they've handled nuanced subjects. The Bloody Baron springs to mind - disgusting, horrible person that the game never makes you feel sorry for, but still leaves you in no doubt that he's a rounded individual who in a sick way genuinely loved the family he abuses.

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If you somehow thought that the Red Baron plotline was appropriately nuanced I have no idea what to tell you. The Red Baron was a murderous habitual abuser who couldn't take any responsibility for his actions and sought to exert control over his victims right down to the end. The narrative posing "his side of the story" in that context is really really bad.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but despite being trans I don't identify as such. I identify as a woman, and characters pushing their transgender status as an identifier raises my eyebrows.

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It's fine if you don't need labels, but labels are important and you need to respect that.

 

[Froyo Love]

Either way, I can see the comments coming that posting the above shuts down the conversation. I don't see why it does unless you are actively unhappy the person you might disagree with is not the caricature of what you might have expected.

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you know, I'm sure some of the people you're implicitly chiding as vitriolic and unfair with this heartwarming crock of shit are also lovely people who own cats and have had health struggles

do you feel like you need to have your face rubbed in those details about their lives? or is it possible that it is not relevant to a discussion of shitty content in a video game?

 

[Four-Eyes]

If you somehow thought that the Red Baron plotline was appropriate nuanced I have no idea what to tell you. The Red Baron was a murderous habitual abuser who couldn't take any responsibility for his actions and sought to exert control over his victims right down to the end. The narrative posing "his side of the story" in that context is really really bad.

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And that was part of the nuance. He was not presented as sympathetic, with his side feeding into that lack of sympathy. His words and justifications were deliberately hollow, written as lame attempts to rationalise his own behaviour.

Nuance does not mean presenting one side only, and having the reader/viewer/player exposed to the positives alone. As I said above, Cyberpunk is a setting where people are a commodity. This does not mean the writer believes that, out of universe, as an objective fact.

And I understand labels, hence why I asked how a trans person is to be used in advertising and PR material without being reduced and objectified as they apparently are here.

 

[Deleted member 888]

you know, I'm sure some of the people you're implicitly chiding as vitriolic and unfair with this heartwarming crock of shit are also lovely people who own cats and have had health struggles

do you feel like you need to have your face rubbed in those details about their lives? or is it possible that it is not relevant to a discussion of shitty content in a video game?

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The people I would even imply could be unfair are only people who called someone some of the really far out there shit with next to nothing to go on, not anyone who disagreed with the art from the start and laid out why.

I'll say it again, I have no idea why finding out more about the person behind the art direction and tonal messages of it would be a bad thing if people were wanting their fears alleviated it's not the worst caricature of a person they imagined up.

But call me a cynic, sometimes seeking out the reassurances that could alleviate such fears causes confusion at times when such reassurances don't line up with the pre-judgements. Some then point bank refuse to even recalibrate a little if they were off base in some of their assumptions. That would be something coming close to admitting you might have gotten a few things wrong yourself, and no one likes coming to terms with accepting they could be wrong about some details in their assumptions.

We moved from it was undoubtedly a man, to this woman was just rolled out as PR person to men at CDPR probably dictated or decided this woman's job for her/them. Yes, I do get a little cynical when I see such takes and people not being willing to look at what is in front of them, not what they were imagining before the news broke of who the woman was and what she is trying.

Again, I'll say it for the third time, none of that means you need to now do a 180 and agree with her, but it should mean more of the far-out accusations and statements get toned down a little. A community can very quickly go from 0 to 100, but a community is still made up of individuals and I personally don't think it's offensive to remind everyone if you're going to assume and judge on little data, then there is always going to be a chance you don't assume correctly.

 

[Surface of Me]

But why give them the benefit of the doubt? Between the hard binary character creator, the lack of any other depictions of trans people in the entirety of the marketing materials they've shown thus far, and the uninspired racial stereotyping we've been exposed to in their latest showings, why would you give them the benefit of the doubt?

I genuinely don't understand. At this point there is basically zero evidence that they're even capable of producing a nuanced take on the subject.

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Not that person, but Witcher 3 had one of the best storylines I've experienced in a game in The Bloody Baron quest. And that was about a ghost baby. I can see why some still have faith in the writers.

 

[jack_package_200]

They need a pr person like her.

 

[Heartimecia]

This wasn't offensive to cis people. And yet...so many cis people here deciding that everything's fine now instead of realizing that it's not for us to decide + boosting the trans people talking about this.

Big yikes. It encapsulates some of the issues with lukewarm white/cis liberalism/progressivism.

 

[misho8723]

Honestly, it seems like a similar add such as this.

'

Also tasteless attempt to use sex and the female body to sell sugar water.

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Well sex sells.. and that's going to be true pretty much even in the future

 

[Wok]

Also tasteless attempt to use sex and the female body to sell sugar water.

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And there are so many more ads with more overtly sexual references:



I like how most of us did not notice the penis in the in-game ad, just as we would not notice over-sexualization in today's advertisements. All we initially saw was an ad for a drink and a subliminal message that the drink is good. We are so used to over-sexualization in ads, and people in Night City are most likely used to their hyper-over-sexualization in ads, so that nobody pays attention anymore.

 

[SugarNoodles]

And that was part of the nuance. He was not presented as sympathetic, with his side feeding into that lack of sympathy. His words and justifications were deliberately hollow, written as lame attempts to rationalise his own behaviour.

Nuance does not mean presenting one side only, and having the reader/viewer/player exposed to the positives alone. As I said above, Cyberpunk is a setting where people are a commodity. This does not mean the writer believes that, out of universe, as an objective fact.

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Okay, but nuance is not inherently good. Something having nuance doesn't make it justified in a narrative context. There is nuance to just about everything, and it's up to writers to determine when to portray that nuance. The Witcher 3 went out of its way to portray The Red Baron as sympathetic despite his flaws. Given who the Red Baron is, that's bad. The narrative doesn't condemn the Red Baron, and it's not some profound exploration into human psychology. It's just a fantasy story that embraces sexist, victim blaming rhetoric.

And I understand labels, hence why I asked how a trans person is to be used in advertising and PR material without being reduced and objectified as they apparently are here.

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You can't think of any ways to represent trans people in advertising without objectifying them?

 

[Dmax3901]

"Redesiuk said that the world of Cyberpunk 2077 includes many people who are gender-nonconforming, some of whom enjoy showing off their bodies in public. They are a demographic group with significant purchasing power, and so, megacorporations use their likenesses to sell soft drinks. It's supposed to be a play on the same sort of hypersexualized advertising that modern companies use to sell products today, just brought in line with the kind of future CD Projekt wants to portray. "

This is exactly the sort of sentiment I've been waiting to hear from them. Hopefully it remains true for the majority of the game (main story, characters etc) and not just in-world art like this example.

 

[AmbientRuin]

The people I would even imply could be unfair are only people who called someone some of the really far out there shit with next to nothing to go on, not anyone who disagreed with the art from the start and laid out why.

I'll say it again, I have no idea why finding out more about the person behind the art direction and tonal messages of it would be a bad thing if people were wanting their fears alleviated it's not the worst caricature of a person they imagined up.

But call me a cynic, sometimes seeking out the reassurances that could alleviate such fears causes confusion at times when such reassurances don't line up with the pre-judgements. Some then point bank refuse to even recalibrate a little if they were off base in some of their assumptions. That would be something coming close to admitting you might have gotten a few things wrong yourself, and no one likes coming to terms with accepting they could be wrong about some details in their assumptions.

We moved from it was undoubtedly a man, to this woman was just rolled out as PR person to men at CDPR probably dictated or decided this woman's job for her/them. Yes, I do get a little cynical when I see such takes and people not being willing to look at what is in front of them, not what they were imagining before the news broke of who the woman was and what she is trying.

Again, I'll say it for the third time, none of that means you need to now do a 180 and agree with her, but it should mean more of the far-out accusations and statements get toned down a little.

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Honestly your posts in these threads really clash with what you generally post about corporations and its pretty eyebrow raising how you're so desperate to want everyone to trust this one despite its history.

 

[antonz]

This wasn't offensive to cis people. And yet...so many cis people here deciding that everything's fine now instead of realizing that it's not for us to decide + boosting the trans people talking about this.

Big yikes.

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So many cis people feel the need to tell Trans people what should offend them. Its a divisive topic even in the Trans community. Plenty of Trans people online have expressed that the image does not offend them and they in fact find positive elements to it.

 

[Alucrid]

you know, I'm sure some of the people you're implicitly chiding as vitriolic and unfair with this heartwarming crock of shit are also lovely people who own cats and have had health struggles

do you feel like you need to have your face rubbed in those details about their lives? or is it possible that it is not relevant to a discussion of shitty content in a video game?

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i wouldn't engage in their meta commentary pissing contest. let them browbeat their imagined caricatures in peace.

 

[Four-Eyes]

This wasn't offensive to cis people. And yet...so many cis people here deciding that everything's fine now instead of realizing that it's not for us to decide + boosting the trans people talking about this.

Big yikes.

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Stop disregarding transgender people who disagree with you, please. You're at least the third person I see implying anyone agreeing with the artist is actually cis, and it's pretty tiresome.

You are arguing for the agency of transgender people by discounting us. Stop it.

Okay, but nuance is not inherently good. Something having nuance doesn't make it justified in a narrative context. There is nuance to just about everything, and it's up to writers to determine when to portray that nuance. The Witcher 3 went out of its way to portray The Red Baron as sympathetic despite his flaws. Given who the Red Baron is, that's bad. The narrative doesn't condemn the Red Baron, and it's not some profound exploration into human psychology. It's just a fantasy story that embraces sexist, victim blaming rhetoric.

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But the narrative does condemn him, repeatedly. Even the most sympathetic stance Geralt can take is one of wanting to help the Baron's child, not taking the Baron's side. Understanding a character does not mean the audience is meant to feel sorry for them, and depicting actions is not the same as a writer supporting them.

You can't think of any ways to represent trans people in advertising without objectifying them?

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I'm asking how, as someone stated earlier, that CDPR can include a trans person in their PR and other preview material without reducing them to a single label or a set of sex characteristics.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Honestly your posts in these threads really clash with what you generally post about corporations and its pretty eyebrow raising how you're so desperate to want everyone to trust this one despite its history.

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Giving you all information about the artist to stand to the test alongside her lengthy explanation in the OP is not asking for blind trust. The product will be fully critically reviewed and examined in due time. There probably won't be a game in times to come that will be examined as in-depth as Cyberpunk, including everyone waiting to see what comes of this artists words.

If there was something public and negative about the artist it would have been reposted a million times too, in order to be used as evidence for how problematic or bad a person they are. That's how the internet operates. I don't see why that can't work the other way if the fear is the person embroiled in this is a bad faith actor.

The history of CDPR is what caused a lot of the accusations to be what they were. I accept that. But that doesn't mean anyone who went from 0 to 100 didn't end up possibly assuming the absolute worst in a situation that did still have a chance of getting an explanation if you just waited a few hours. Polygon did what needed to be done, and it's good there is a response, but I'm not going to lie that some responses I'm seeing to this do seem to be almost disappointed some of the most extreme accusations or assumptions weren't true. Or don't appear to be true as of now.

 

[Heartimecia]

So many cis people feel the need to tell Trans people what should offend them. Its a divisive topic even in the Trans community. Plenty of Trans people online have expressed that the image does not offend them and they in fact find positive elements to it.

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I've seen way less trans people be okay with it, but their voices are nonetheless valid and we should be centering those voices on this discussion. Cis people arguing amongst themselves about who is right and deciding that this is okay, especially without taking into account the thoughts of trans people, looks super fucking silly.

 

[Deleted member 45130]

This kind of felt obvious to me. The setting is grimey and seedy, I fully expect to see this kind of thing in this kind of game.

 

[sgtnosboss]

I think it's a reasonable point of view and its inclusion in the game is fine. People need to realize that things in media can and often do serve a narrative purpose.

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.

 

[Heartimecia]

Stop disregarding transgender people who disagree with you, please. You're at least the third person I see implying anyone agreeing with the artist is actually cis, and it's pretty tiresome.

You are arguing for the agency of transgender people by discounting us. Stop it.

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Maybe my response to a reply might help clear things up. Didn't say you weren't valid, just that it's silly for cis people to believe they should be the ones deciding things. Apologies that it came across differently.

 

[Four-Eyes]

Maybe my response to a reply might help clear things up. Didn't say you weren't valid, just that it's silly for cis people to believe they should be the ones deciding things. Apologies that it came across differently.

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You implied that the people supporting the artist were cis, and they were telling transgender people what they could feel. In doing so you just labeled "dissenting" trans voices as actually being cis, which is a gross generalisation, and you're not the only one to take that stance.

Just avoid saying it altogether, please.

 

[SugarNoodles]

But the narrative does condemn him, repeatedly. Even the most sympathetic stance Geralt can take is one of wanting to help the Baron's child, not taking the Baron's side. Understanding a character does not mean the audience is meant to feel sorry for them, and depicting actions is not the same as a writer supporting them.

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What the narrative does is offer the abuser redemption repeatedly while giving the main character the opportunity to listen to "his side of the story" and then having the player agree to track down abuse victims for their abuser. If you can't see why that's more than "nuance" I can't help you.

I'm asking how, as someone stated earlier, that CDPR can include a trans person in their PR and other preview material without reducing them to a single label or a set of sex characteristics.

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I mean if you're confused about why the ad was objectifying your best resource is probably google but I'd hazard a guess at the outline of the character's genitalia.

 

[Deleted member 22405]

I think it's a reasonable point of view and its inclusion in the game is fine. People need to realize that things in media can and often do serve a narrative purpose.

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I more or less agree with this. I also kinda wanna ask; transgendered themes are not explored as far as I'm concerned as much as they should be despite the obvious parallel to transhumanism. I think all of us want more of but in order for that to happen, these themes are going to have to become, I guess, commonplace. Point is; I wasn't expecting Cyberpunk to have an ounce of it and on top of it; possibly explore it in a way that everybody universally receives with positive reception. I obviously can never understand the complexity of the themes but I think even if Cyberpunk does nothing with them; the inclusion will be a stepping stone for more games to explore it and evolve to a perspective that is 100% respectful.

As per usual, I'm very sorry if my English is confusing.

 

[julia crawford]

They can't earn using exploitative imagery without actually putting in the effort to actually explore the topic. Using that kind of imagery to "set the tone" and suggest some evil aspect of the world is vacuous and exploitative.

 

[CJSeven]

Still not buying their response- if this was a female character with a a clear outline of her vagina, it would rightfully be criticized as overtly fetishized and sexually exploitative of women (and there have been multiple threads/discussions on how this is an ongoing issue in the gaming industry), and we should have the same standards for depictions of trans individuals.

 

[Heartimecia]

You implied that the people supporting the artist were cis, and they were telling transgender people what they could feel. In doing so you just labeled "dissenting" trans voices as actually being cis, which is a gross generalisation, and you're not the only one to take that stance.

Just avoid saying it altogether, please.

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Saying "a lot of cis people think this is okay and it's silly for cis people to think they can decide that + we should boost/center the trans people talking about this instead" (didn't mention which viewpoint) isn't the same as saying "only cis people think this is okay," but I understand why you came to the conclusion with the frustration of being discounted as a minority over a dissenting opinion. Anyway, I'm queer and support the validity of your opinion and think we should center yours in addition to other opinions made by trans people. ✌️

 

[Giever]

I get what she's saying, and that's mostly how I took that ad when I first saw it as well. I think it serves their world-building well with how open everything is to exploitation by the mega-corps (not really out of line with current day) and the idea that body types like that are so normalized and accepted that they can be used in an ad for typical sex appeal.

I definitely get why some trans individuals would not be happy with it, but trans people aren't a monolith and it seems like others are into it. Not trans myself, I can't really speak to it with the same authority they would have, but just for the sake of participating in discussion those are my thoughts.

I'll feel better about it if we also see some more atypical male-presenting ads that evoke similar feelings of exploitation and normalization.

 

[neonneongod]

Okay, but nuance is not inherently good. Something having nuance doesn't make it justified in a narrative context. There is nuance to just about everything, and it's up to writers to determine when to portray that nuance. The Witcher 3 went out of its way to portray The Red Baron as sympathetic despite his flaws. Given who the Red Baron is, that's bad. The narrative doesn't condemn the Red Baron, and it's not some profound exploration into human psychology. It's just a fantasy story that embraces sexist, victim blaming rhetoric.

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I feel like this is falling into the same kind of rhetoric a lot of people unhappy with the portrayal of thanos's in the MCU were chucking around during infinity war - that because facets of a villain's personality are relatable and sympathetic (i.e. thanos appearing to genuinely care for his adoptive children, and wishing to avoid the horrors of overpopulation, scarcity and starvation) - it somehow negates the awfulness of their deeds. Do villains have to all be portrayed as cartoonishly evil avatars of destruction? That's a bit myopic if you're going for any kind of social commentary - everyday people with families and loved ones do horrible things, every day, all over the world. It's important to remember that.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Still not buying their response- if this was a female character with a a clear outline of her vagina, it would rightfully be criticized as overtly fetishized and sexually exploitative of women, and we should have the same standards for depictions of trans individuals.

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The game is already sexualizing what you could infer were cis characters, although that is part of the problem with assuming stills for this game, the world itself is supposed to be very gender/sexual fluid

It's probably also going to be very likely David Cage's favourite addition is in the game, sex robots or sex AI (unless anyone can correct me none of that exists in Cyberpunk). Sex implants do but I don't know about full on robots/AI.

No doubt there will be red light districts/brothels and more too. I mean, Love Hub? Peep Show?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I'm surprised by how good this response was. Maybe I have some crow-eating to do

 

[aesync]

I mean, we would be kidding ourselves if this kind of advertisement isn't a realistic thing that would exist in a seedy distopian future. Just browse your porn site of choice to see this kind of thing already happening.

Does it seem realistic for the dark future of this game? Yep. Is it questionable and offensive based on the history of CDPR responses? Sure. Can you be offended and have every right to speak up? Absolutely. Can you choose to buy into this depiction and experience this vision of CDPR? Also absolutely.

Basically I think everyone is justified in their range of opinions on this topic. Personally I'm in for the ride to see whatever twisted, messed up future is depicted in this game, and I'll take it in the context of the artistic vision they are crafting. But I totally thing its okay to be mad at this if you so choose.

 

[SugarNoodles]

I feel like this is falling into the same kind of rhetoric a lot of people unhappy with the portrayal of thanos's in the MCU were chucking around during infinity war - that because facets of a villain's personality are relatable and sympathetic (i.e. thanos appearing to genuinely care for his adoptive children, and wishing to avoid the horrors of overpopulation, scarcity and starvation) - it somehow negates the awfulness of their deeds. Do villains have to all be portrayed as cartoonishly evil avatars of destruction? That's a bit myopic if you're going for any kind of social commentary - everyday people with families and loved ones do horrible things, every day, all over the world.

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I'd be interested in discussing that when we have an epidemic of Titans wandering the world trying to snap half of the universe's population into dust. If that were the case, The presentation of Thanos's character would be deeply problematic.

Until that happens, it's really just not relevant.

For the record, if The Red Baron's role in The Witcher 3 served as commentary on systemic sexism and the dangers of excusing/pardoning irredeemably abusive men, that'd be different. However in that case TW3 would also be a very different game than the one it is.

 

[Abhor]

I hope the sentiment expressed in her statement is also reflective of other elements of the game; Cyberpunk 2077 has the potential to be a hyper-progressive game, but CDPR already has a poor track record handling this kind of stuff so I'm not surprised people aren't willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't offended by the image, but I can understand those that are bothered by it and they have every right to criticize it. I would really like to see more of the game to see what narrative they go for, or if this turns out to be PR bullshit.

 

[Avitus]

Still not buying their response- if this was a female character with a a clear outline of her vagina, it would rightfully be criticized as overtly fetishized and sexually exploitative of women (and there have been multiple threads/discussions on how this is an ongoing issue in the gaming industry), and we should have the same standards for depictions of trans individuals.

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This is not an "X exists, therefore it is automatically bad and should be removed" situation because the game is depicting a world in which a great many things are very, very wrong. Context matters. When the full game comes out, you can judge for yourself if they earned the use of such themes. Until then, it's basically a wait and see. The artist has clearly stated their intent.

Hypersexualization doesn't make sense in many contexts, like scantily clad female armor in a gritty fantasy game when compared to male characters. It makes a lot of sense in a world where it is the norm and it's being used by corporations to push products. If we're acknowledging that trans/non-binary/gender fluid people exist in this world, it also makes sense that they would also be used in said advertisements.

It's supposed to be jarring.

 

[Gestault]

How many transfolk will be spoken over and dismissed because they disagree with the general consensus?

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I'll point out that the number of cis people dismissing the topic out-of-hand was significant enough to be moderated heavily. Don't pretend it's not an issue in these discussions. If trans people are actually being treated in a hostile way, I'd recommend reporting it, but being trans or not doesn't have bearing if people are criticizing particular ideas or assertions that do/don't make sense.

Stop disregarding transgender people who disagree with you, please. You're at least the third person I see implying anyone agreeing with the artist is actually cis, and it's pretty tiresome.

You are arguing for the agency of transgender people by discounting us. Stop it.

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I'll point out that you've created an oroboros of no one being able to disagree with you, while also putting together this strawman that reduces an accurate observation about cis hostility to "literally 100% of those who disagree with the artist are cis." Engaging with others in the convo IS part of listening to people, and that does include disagreement.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but despite being trans I don't identify as such. I identify as a woman, and characters pushing their transgender status as an identifier raises my eyebrows.

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I think this goes beyond not being helpful into something worse. For a situation where the issue is outsiders having the power to define social roles, significance, and identities for trans people, it comes across as a terrible moment to draw the line that you don't really think of yourself as trans. Particularly when you juxtapose it with frustration that others are disagreeing with you as a trans person. I understand the nuance of self identity very well, but it is significant if you (seem) to speak in defense of cis aggression AND make the declaration that you don't consider yourself trans. You are a woman, and I respect and appreciate that reality, but this point about not considering yourself trans raised concurrently with the others ends up being a loaded one.

 

[Deleted member 4413]

That is a lot more in depth response than I expected tbh. Idk. I guess it's okay but idk. I'm definitely concerned with the stereotypes shown and seemingly lack of awareness still. We'll see I guess as the game gets closer to launch. My expectations are dulled for sure.

This has turned into a day 1 purchase to a let's wait and see for me. Specifically because of CDs history of poor representation and stereotypes.

 

[Deleted member 28967]

I was ok with this when it was revealed as i assumed it was meaningful in the game world, the response from the dev was great to give context.
However what im most disappointed with was the ERA reaction initially, without giving a chance for the devs to respond and give context it was a case of jumping up and down, outrage and "OMG HOW CAN THEY DO THIS",
Would like if it was a lesson learnt going forward but i know its not going to happen.

 

[Gestault]

I was ok with this when it was revealed as i assumed it was meaningful in the game world, the response from the dev was great to give context.
However what im most disappointed with was the ERA reaction initially, without giving a chance for the devs to respond and give context it was a case of jumping up and down, outrage and "OMG HOW CAN THEY DO THIS",
Would like if it was a lesson learnt going forward but i know its not going to happen.

Click to shrink...

Promo materials were released for the game. People watched those materials and discussed them. A criticism about something specific came up so often that a journalist asked about it in an interview, and they gave an answer. People are now discussing the original situation in light of that answer. That's how human interaction works. Responding to art as presented by its creator isn't "jumping the gun," it's the purpose of art.

And I'll point out that as far as I can tell, this concern developed organically from within the trans community. They're the subject matter, and their responses are valid and justified.

 

[Call me YHWH]

the answer was good and was well thought out but without positive, well-rounded trans characters acting as part of the story in addition to this, it's really not the same thing. i'm not sure that i can trust these devs to be able to have a well-rounded and thoughtful story on transhumanism given their responses (and non responses) to some of the other issues that have popped up before this.

there's still very little reason to give them any good faith at this point.

 

[Deleted member 2761]

I think there are a lot of people espousing the fallacy of "context matters" that's freqeuntly parroted in cases of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and most of the time, the excuse doesn't actually fly.

What's more, this isn't something a high-schooler or person of moderate authority, like a state politician or CEO have said. Millions of people will play this game, and I believe this will affect public perception of trans people. It behooves an artist to exercise a degree of responsibility for what their audience takes from their work, and so we should expect the same from CDPR.