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Polygon: CDPR responds to sexualized trans advertisement in CyberPunk 2077 (Read Staff Post Before Posting)
- Thread starter BAD
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/Definitely/ required reading imo. I won't make the mistake of discounting dissenting trans voices/opinions as a cis person, and it isn't my place to dictate whether the issue at hand is fine or not, but I do really agree with her. I recommend following her work if you don't already--she's incredible.
Oh, now that you point it out, I can see you're right. BIG YIKES. I'll DM her about this right now.
I advise you read all my other posts in this thread, because I already addressed that PR excuse earlier, and I'm not keen on repeating myself for yet another person who wants to brush my grievances away.
I edited my post afterward to address the world, not in time to catch the reply though!
It would be great if you could put the same energy your using to defend a transphobic company into defending trans people.
The article Heartimecia posted is pretty thorough and includes both of their transphobic tweets. What it doesn't include is their refusal to publicly apologize for the second second one (which, considering the context behind that tweet, was especially cruel). The did (quietly) fire the asshole behind the tweets, however.
I'd recommend you read the entire article.
I'd classify calling the existance of trans people as "politics we shouldn't talk about because all we have to say are negative things" as a transphobic tweet too, and that was the supposed apology, so really there are three offending tweets, but now I'm being pedantic
Dude is literally pulling the "I don't know much about this topic BUT ACTUALLY YOU GUYS ARE WRONG!" card. He thinks he's hot shit but he ain't.
One of the most damning things from the article IMO is how it points out that the ad was almost immediately weaponized by the alt right. They're eating that shit up right now. So even if, somehow, the game ends up delivering the fabled context that makes this work, the fact that they didn't do so now has already given ammunition to the transphobic hate machine.
I imagine they wouldn't need to, but my point is more: if CDPR actually wanted to make transgender people commonly accepted in the game's world, they would have highlighted that. And considering that when asked about having more gender fluidity options in the character creator their answer was just that it's "something they looked at", I kinda doubt that they put that much thought into transgender people in their world.
User Banned (3 Days): Dismissive drive-by in a sensitive subject thread
Only on twitter...and resetera ofc.
Update: she's updating the article. Linked her to your reply, as well. :) Thank you for that super eagle-eyed observation.
Eying them critically is fair given their past. At the same time it should be at least somewhat apparent why others are looking at the same thing and asking "is this actually an insult to trans people?" It's something that even in the isolation it was presented makes sense in a non-transphobic way. And it is clearly part of a larger theme of sexualization.
Needs to be in the OP. Great article and can't wait to read the revision.
Hey thanks for your response! On my last question, I would like to know if you believe there is any acceptable way to depict the intended message that the designer stated in her responses?
I know I'm not the person you are asking but: better representation.
If we have seen several trans characters by this point (especially including positive depictions) then this wouldn't have the same negative impact.
But right now this is the only depiction we are aware of and it's harshly negative.
I only read the quotes in the OP so far but feel like I just got cisplained to in a damage-control capacity.
Wonder ifshe sorry, this "person", to use her apparently favorite word for fictional future trans folk who most likely, if we're being honest, identify as women, has many trans friends. She doesn't talk like she does, imo.
Polygon comment is on point:
Edit: Oh, I hadn't even noticed the ad's chromosomes reference. That sucks.
Wonder if
Polygon comment is on point:
Jigabachi @ Polygon said:
Edit: Oh, I hadn't even noticed the ad's chromosomes reference. That sucks.
Going back over your posts in this thread, it looks like your main grievance is the tweets? (But please correct me if I overlooked anything.) Which I've addressed in that post. I don't think that those tweets alone prove that this was done in bad faith. They definitely can and should cast doubt on the assertion that it wasn't but not more than that. I am certainly sceptical of their handling of LGBTQ issues (and racism, sexism, you name it) and one can, of course, find this ad offensive regardless of what its creators' intentions were but I disagree with the notion that we can know for a fact that it'll handle them badly based on the information we have at this point. And while I understand that this whole issue is a frustrating one, there's no need to get hostile with me.
The part where the writer stated that they are just using LGBT as set dressing... I had never even thought of it like that. Great article.
I wish the people willing to give CDPR their good faith despite their history of racist and LBGTQ+ issues would look at this in particular with the faith they've actually earned as a company.
About better communication/representation potential
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. Tech-noir, if you will. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
You can't play as non binary?
Wow, I thought I would finally be able to do it.
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
Thank you for your response and POV, I have a lot of thinking to do regarding this.
This is a great article thank you for posting it here.
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Yes. If they wanted to show off sexualised ads maybe make one that shows a white man with an average or small penis taking something to make it large.
You're welcome. I appreciate your respectful responses. It means a lot.
If im remembering correctly the last time they spoke of non binary PCs was last year where they said nothing was in stone.
Hopefully they add very easy to include customization options
Based on the creation screen, you can't. It may change, but I'm not holding my breath.
Really hoping so.
That explanation, but unless this "hyper-sexualization" is presented as negative in the game or the game includes numerous examples of positive representation it's all just hot air... CDPR has a history of punching down. It's all reinforced for me by the fact that twitch gamers will happen across these ads and just laugh at the "tranny". No lessons are going to be taught or learned. This screams grossly ignorant at worst and a shallow attempt at sending a message at best. Just yikes.
It's unlikely that there will be any direct narrative saying how awful stuff specifically like that ad is, if only because the PC and every other person in the world is affected by the deep normalization that the Megacorps have enacted over the years and not everyone realizes how fucked everything is because a lot of people don't really know anything better. That said kinda the point of Cyberpunk is that the entire world is so fucked from not just ads like that but basically everything the Megacorps has pushed society towards and it's more about the players recognizing and being able to experience first hand how deeply fucked everything is. It's an exceptionally anti-capitalism piece of work, that goes at length to showcase how the end point of an unchecked capitalism is one where every part of society is for better or worse exploited for capital gain mercilessly.
As far as the latter, that's a bit more likely alongside non-binary/genderfluid rep because both are very common in Cyberpunk (which is why I found it so easy to identify with while reading/playing it tbh, it's one of the few games where if you're not cis you can actually just be trans/gender queer without much fuss). Transitioning in the Cyberpunk world is so advanced that you can complete a full post op transition in less than 2 months and even have the ability to have kids without issues. (both sire & bear them) All for the cost of a mediocre pulse rifle.
Of course it's just that with people being able to fully actualize who they'd like to be so easily and that ideal becoming proper normal in society, it becomes another aspect that the Megacorps exploit for capital gain in their ads and businesses. One of the only good things that exists in Cyberpunk's society is ruthlessly abused for profit by the Megacorps at every turn.
I am an avid fan of the tabletop, and I think the responses in the thread are interesting to say the least. I find it interesting that people are getting hung up at the depiction of the trans person in the ad - which it's fine to be upset/disgusted over - simply because if you think about it the meat of the issue here is that anyone regardless of if they are cis/trans/non-binary would be an awful depiction. Corporations using people's sexuality for their own means and gains is abhorrent regardless of who it is. Using a cis person in the ad wouldn't very successfully convey that point because using cis people's sexuality in ad placements is normalized for most of the world and most people turn a blind eye to it, there wouldn't really be much of a discussion if the ad was a cis person almost assuredly simply because we've come to expect that as a people even though we shouldn't have to as people shouldn't have their sexuality abused for other people's profits in the first place.
Assuming the game is authentic to the tabletop's design, players should walk away with a disgust for everything related to the Megacorps - which includes the ads - though, and ideally with that comes a disgust towards already existing conventions that are only a couple of steps away from turning into the things Megacorps push in the game, like abusing a trans person's sexuality in advertisements coming from the already existing abuse of cis people's sexuality in advertisements as transsexualism becomes more normalized in the social consciousness.
I don't think it's reasonable to demand that media should be designed around the possibility that unsavory people might take it out of context and weaponize it.
When you're talking about a community that is as marginalized as trans people are, it's a fucking requirement. Put in the effort or GTFO, imo.
This is an inherent problem with cyberpunk as a genre: the second it moved from individual book writers to actual companies creating and selling cyberpunk-themed (and in this case, literally cyberpunk-branded) products, its anti-corporate messaging became quite suspect if not entirely hollow. "We're using sexualized advertising in the game to signal that sexualized advertising is bad" is a textbook case of this trope.
Yep. If you're going to even consider tackling the subject, consult and constantly be checking yourself on the messaging. Otherwise fuck off with the half-baked shit.
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. Tech-noir, if you will. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
Thank you for this post; it's a very balanced, succint and still comprehensive summation of what's wrong with it. BAD, would you consider threadmarking it if Triscuitable doesn't mind?
I think it's entirely reasonable to demand that when you're making media depicting one of the most abused collectives in existence. I mean, if you make media without a care how it might be used against the very people you're depicting, it's hard to think you care much for them other than using them to window-dress your product.
And I mean, it's not even just the alt-right weaponizing them that shows it's problematic; it has been criticised nearly universally by transgender people. How many of them did they actually run the ad through before OKing it? It's kind of hard to imagine it's more than zero.
In addition to what the others who've responded to this post already said, I'll add that this specific outcome could have been potentially avoided had they also chosen to show off some of the more positive trans representations in the game, that I guess we're just supposed to take their word for. Not doing so was an exceedingly irresponsible move on CDPR's. It was a careless deployment of trans imagery with little regard for the thoughts and feelings of trans people.
I initially thought the artist's response was a good one, but I couldn't shake the feeling that there was a lot still wrong with it. After sitting with it and thinking about it more, this article reflects where I am now on the subject.
Thank you for sharing, and thank you for the perspective.
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. Tech-noir, if you will. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
This is incredibly written. Thank you so much for this intelligent and rational post that sees the isometrics of such a deep and personal issue.
I have to believe (for the sake of humanity) that we see the "punk" within a rich story that reveals full spectrum of what makes us human with a wide range of characters, even if past mouthpieces left a bad taste. I totally get what the ad is eliciting, we just have to see the other, real side of that. The non-ad depiction. The humanity.
Hopefully this game ends up delivering in so many ways that it makes the transphobic, racist, fucks completely flip out and start saying "CDPR put politicks in muh shoot bang game." I really, really hope they do.
What's the end goal here? Removal of any and all sexualised assets? How would you respond if CDPR just told us to fuck off?
I'm all for putting in an effort to understand and be respectful. I'm saying that I don't like the idea of demanding that a piece of content or media should be crafted and designed with the assumption that some alt right fuckers might take it out of context and misrepresent it to hurt people. I actually haven't seen whatever this thing is about so I'm not saying CDPR are without blame, if anything I think there's a good chance this is another fuckup on their part. I'm merely expressing that I don't think changing something - assuming it's well intended and well executed within the full context - just because it might be abused and taken out of context is the right way.
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people would call for a ban of Cyberpunk and all CD Projekt games on ERA
We're not talking about people taking it out of context, we're talking about people consuming the material that CDPR has put out in the context of everything they've released. If CDPR put this out but also included the sort of context that showed that trans and non-binary individuals are front and center and a normalized part of the Cyberpunk world, we're having a very different conversation here. Instead, we're having this discussion, where the only hint of trans people in the game is this fetishized bullshit. It's also worth mentioning that CDPR doesn't have anyone else to blame for this, since CDPR is their own publisher and they don't have a third party to blame for displaying their game in the wrong light like other developers utilizing third-party publishers might.
It's possible that in the context of the final game that this might be OK, but in order to pull that off they're going to have to go from not apologizing for transphobic tweets to putting out the single most trans-positive AAA video game ever produced by far in around a year's time. It's possible, but not very likely.
EDIT: Because it struck me after I posted this, "the single most trans-positive AAA video game ever produced" is still a pretty low bar, so I should note that it's entirely possible that they clear that and still miss the one where this ad is put into a context that makes the ad not wildly offensive.
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So, this is where I think the conversation is actually interesting.
I think "ChroManticure" is infinitely more damaging and insulting. It's passing on the idea that being non-binary/trans is some sickness that can be "cured".
Where if it's "Chromanticore", that's using the concept of the Manticore, which is a mythological being that is made of all different animal parts. That easily symbolizes the world of Cyberpunk where a person can choose to craft their own self image using different "parts", both human and inhuman.