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Polygon: Gaming's Toxic Men, Explained
- Thread starter catboy
- Start date
Very interesting but that title. Sounds like i'm being explained a comic book character or that end credits stinger from a Marvel film.
Thats a long article and it really hits the nail on the head. Gaming has been a nerds/boys thing for ages, and finally its starting to change into something everyone can enjoy, but men think that this will somehow make their experiences worse which is pretty dumb.
This is fantastic, exhaustive and diverse. Bravo to Polygon.
I think Thom Avella's words ring the most true and are probably the simplest 'explanation' to why young men feel the way they do.
There's a ton to unpack here but I'm surprised there is zero mention of the proliferation of pornography and that intersecting with young men who also play games and shaping how they view women. It's not too much to assume there is a huge overlap. It's pretty apparent to me that the ease of access to porn has irreparably shaped society in a big way the last decade or so. Carolyn Petit touches on it briefly what the expectations some of these people have for women in general when they come in to their 'space'.
A lot of the things mentioned (anger especially) is just people who have traditionally been in charge coming to the realization that the world and the United States is changing, becoming more inclusive and not going to be the status quo. It is shitty getting to the point we will inevitably end up at, but it will be worth it.
"I know you've taken it in the teeth out there, but the first guy through the wall. It always gets bloody, always. It's the threat of not just the way of doing business, but in their minds it's threatening the game. But really what it's threatening is their livelihoods, it's threatening their jobs, it's threatening the way that they do things. And every time that happens, whether it's the government or a way of doing business or whatever it is, the people are holding the reins, have their hands on the switch. They go bat shit crazy."
- Moneyball
I think Thom Avella's words ring the most true and are probably the simplest 'explanation' to why young men feel the way they do.
There's a ton to unpack here but I'm surprised there is zero mention of the proliferation of pornography and that intersecting with young men who also play games and shaping how they view women. It's not too much to assume there is a huge overlap. It's pretty apparent to me that the ease of access to porn has irreparably shaped society in a big way the last decade or so. Carolyn Petit touches on it briefly what the expectations some of these people have for women in general when they come in to their 'space'.
A lot of the things mentioned (anger especially) is just people who have traditionally been in charge coming to the realization that the world and the United States is changing, becoming more inclusive and not going to be the status quo. It is shitty getting to the point we will inevitably end up at, but it will be worth it.
"I know you've taken it in the teeth out there, but the first guy through the wall. It always gets bloody, always. It's the threat of not just the way of doing business, but in their minds it's threatening the game. But really what it's threatening is their livelihoods, it's threatening their jobs, it's threatening the way that they do things. And every time that happens, whether it's the government or a way of doing business or whatever it is, the people are holding the reins, have their hands on the switch. They go bat shit crazy."
- Moneyball
Plenty of men view porn and aren't shitbags because of it. I don't think there's any real basis for the connection you're trying to make.
I agree with the rest though - formerly underachieving white men either had a leg up over or at least could look down on women and minorities. That's slowly beginning to change and now those kinds of men are upset.
I agree with the rest though - formerly underachieving white men either had a leg up over or at least could look down on women and minorities. That's slowly beginning to change and now those kinds of men are upset.
Kishonna Gray:
Kahlief Adams:
Also, I'm embarrassed I didn't know of Thom Avella before this.
This is so on point and I've been banging this drum for years. Using descriptors to hand wave the people doing this stuff does more harm than good. It's why every time I sarcastically highlight toxic gamer culture I always get my notifications lighting up with people saying "its just some, not all!1" or "just stupid kids".
Kahlief Adams:
Yep. These companies have gotten away far too long with inaction. YouTube is absolutely vile. Some of the most innocuous videos will have racist or misogyny displayed in the comments and they have stayed prominently there for years.
Also, I'm embarrassed I didn't know of Thom Avella before this.
It happens here whenever anyone says "gamers suck". Someone then comes in to make a thread all about them and about how THEY -don't- suck and stop labelling them. If we could get through a discusson on Era without people trying to talk over the women in the thread about how they're A Good Guy and then tone policing, we'd already be one major step ahead.
Gonna make sure to dig into this later when I have the time, because I've been wanting a more in-depth look into this angle for a while.
Again, I haven't sunk into the article yet. However, even taking into account what you say, much of the perceptions porn cultivates typically creates a lot of obliviousness amongst young men in regards to key social cues and standards. They may not have any malintent, but it can nevertheless still harm someone in one way or another.
The way a lot of people talk about Straight White Males nowadays is like they are trying to understand this odd evil alien species. It's so odd.
Definitely gonna give this a read. The quotes posted here in the comments are already really good.
If I had a nickel for every damn time someone makes a thread about how they aren't a shit bag on this site......
Great work by Polygon. I just wanted to highlight this surgically precise and wonderfully concise history of the internet:
Soraya Chemaly said:
It's because straight white dudes are invisible and in power so drawing their position into the spotlight reveals the inequalities our societies reproduce
Straight White Males are the demographic doing the overwhelming majority of harassment on the internet, soooooo...
If you're not contributing to the culture of harassment, then you have no reason to feel defensive.
I don't know how accurate this is. Annecdotal, but the people I know most open about being into some fucked up porn are also some of the most privately and actively progressive folks I know.
I have no doubt that the nature and proliferation of pornographic material contributes in some way, but I have to imagine there are other factors catalyzing with it.
I would posit the presence of a strong belief in traditional gender roles existing even in the absence of that material blending with the perception of women conveyed in most, and especially most mainstream, porn in a stronger indicator than porn consumption/content in isolation.
Great read so far. The Persecution Complex section is very illustrative of a lot issues many people seem to have when it comes to recognizing they have privilege and reconciling that with the fact that their life may still suck and understanding how that can exist when people from so called marginalized groups are still finding equal or greater success around you.
Starting to change? I thought it already had changed in 2006 and has only been gaining steam since. The mass casualization of games did actually affect some who have been gaming since long before that too. It doesn't justify any reactionary or manbaby attitudes, but it still had an effect.
It's particularly odd when you consider it's usually Straight White Males talking about Straight White Males like they're aliens.
Yeah - farmville and the wii were over a decade ago now. It's not really a new thing.
Though I've not seen any recent data about gaming demographics and the type of games they play and how many hours they spend playing them. It probably exists somewhere though given how much telemetry is in games now-a-days.
No really new, but there are some good insights and concisely worded statements worth remembering for future use.
You nailed it. People talk about "young black men" and "gay people" and "black women" all the time in the exact same tone. But when you start describing the dominant group, the white fragility kicks in hard.
So are there any communities with similar demographic makeups that successfully addressed their toxicity problem? If so what can we learn from them?
Literally seeing this in the first page of this thread.
EDIT: In the post above this one, even!
Is it a surprise? We had a 40 page thread about how unwelcoming Era is to women, and it had to be locked because manchildren couldn't fucking bear the thought of a single thread being critical of their behaviour
I would agree with this wholeheartedly. People have no idea how damaging porn truly is, especially given both how extreme and how ubiquitous it has become.
Fantastic article!
Also sadly not surprised to see the "Us Straight White Males are the real victims here!" type posts pop up here.
Also sadly not surprised to see the "Us Straight White Males are the real victims here!" type posts pop up here.
I mean, if most of us on this board can agree that sexist or misogynistic depictions of women in a game contribute to a greater problem of misogyny in the gaming community, then it should be clear that pornography, which on the whole is far more misogynistic and sexist than any video game, would also contribute to that same problem.
Watching porn doesnt turn you into a misogynist or force you to demean women, but it absolutely reinforces those mindsets in people who are already inclined that way, or subconsciously cultivates such mindsets, especially in the developing mind of a teenager. Most people can distinguish between fiction and reality, but at some level that consumption is still affecting you.
I want to make it clear that I'm not being holier than thou when saying this; I'm a recovering porn addict. Maybe that makes me biased, but I also know that for some people porn can be extremely damaging.
Same old boring diversion tactics by the kind of people the article is talking about. Quite illuminating, really.
