Polygon: Gaming's Toxic Men, Explained

[The Adder]

I mean, if most of us on this board can agree that sexist or misogynistic depictions of women in a game contribute to a greater problem of misogyny in the gaming community, then it should be clear that pornography, which on the whole is far more misogynistic and sexist than any video game, would also contribute to that same problem.

Watching porn doesnt turn you into a misogynist or force you to demean women, but it absolutely reinforces those mindsets in people who are already inclined that way, or subconsciously cultivates such mindsets, especially in the developing mind of a teenager. Most people can distinguish between fiction and reality, but at some level that consumption is still affecting you.

I want to make it clear that I'm not being holier than thou when saying this; I'm a recovering porn addict. Maybe that makes me biased, but I also know that for some people porn can be extremely damaging.

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I don't disagree with the premise. I think the damage done in general media is so severe because it's so casual about it, so as to never really be a thing someone who mindlessly consumes media thinks about. You don't consider the roles women and minorities in media are being relegated to because their being relegated to those roles is just taken as written. That's what makes it super dangerous. You have a world of heightened fictional reality, but those aspects aren't written as if they are a part of the heightened reality. They're the aspects used to 'ground' the media. The damage is done in that its 'realistic' aspects consist of stereotypes and objectification.

The difference with pornographic content is that the heightened reality is the objectification and stereotypes. And I certainly agree that it is highly damaging to folks already in, or predisposed to, a certain mindset. The circle I'm trying to square is the people I know who have a stronger grasp on feminism as a subject than I do and can talk at lengths with me on the subject of race in America, who also willingly and shamelessly admit to getting off on cuckold fiction. Kind of like how the BDSM community has, on average, a stronger grasp on the nature of enthusiastic consent than most people outside of it.

I'm more questioning whether it is a catalyst in and of itself, or if it's something that exacerbates a mental state that already exists in a particular viewer's mind.

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

So this isn't just the social media sites. Twitch (I guess it could be argued it's a social media site?), gaming companies and voice actors are complicit as well. I'll give an example. DansGaming, someone who 99% of the time is enjoyable to watch, every now and then makes transphobic jokes (mostly the absolutely lame 'did you assume my gender' nonsense, which not only is transphobic but he uses it every day). I've tried reaching out to him personally after he banned me for calling his chat toxic and he never engaged.

He famously could not understand why using his 'DanSexy' emote, which is a picture of him with a pink wig on, in SGDQ when a trans person was on the screen was offensive. The lack of understanding context and nuance is rife on Twitch. 'What it's just an emote or a word, what's the big deal?'

Recently, after starting the Darkest Dungeon expansion, the DD voice actor recorded "begone thot" as a voiceline that he used when people subscribed to his channel. You can see this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Livestream...nsgaming_gets_a_surprise_voice_line_from_the/

I'm not sure when 'thot' became a thing but Twitch absolutely has a horrendous toxicity issue. He is one of the oldest streamers on the platform and it really sucks that he thinks this shit is funny and is enabled by his chat. Twitch's 'solution' is changing their TOS and not enforcing it on the bigger streamers because they're making too much money. The chat is full of racist, transphobic nonsense CONSTANTLY in almost every channel. They've done more to protect the music industry than minorities on their site. It's pathetic and I can't imagine being a minority on there in any of the bigger channels.

 

[Urban Scholar]

So this isn't just the social media sites. Twitch (I guess it could be argued it's a social media site?), gaming companies and voice actors are complicit as well. I'll give an example. DansGaming, someone who 99% of the time is enjoyable to watch, every now and then makes transphobic jokes (mostly the absolutely lame 'did you assume my gender' nonsense, which not only is transphobic but he uses it every day). I've tried reaching out to him personally after he banned me for calling his chat toxic and he never engaged.

He famously could not understand why using his 'DanSexy' emote, which is a picture of him with a pink wig on, in SGDQ when a trans person was on the screen was offensive. The lack of understanding context and nuance is rife on Twitch. 'What it's just an emote or a word, what's the big deal?'

Recently, after starting the Darkest Dungeon expansion, the DD voice actor recorded "begone thot" as a voiceline that he used when people subscribed to his channel. You can see this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Livestream...nsgaming_gets_a_surprise_voice_line_from_the/

I'm not sure when 'thot' became a thing but Twitch absolutely has a horrendous toxicity issue. He is one of the oldest streamers on the platform and it really sucks that he thinks this shit is funny and is enabled by his chat. Twitch's 'solution' is changing their TOS and not enforcing it on the bigger streamers because they're making too much money. The chat is full of racist, transphobic nonsense CONSTANTLY in almost every channel. They've done more to protect the music industry than minorities on their site. It's pathetic and I can't imagine being a minority on there in any of the bigger channels.

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You bring up good points.

The article does mention that Twitch and the like need to do a lot better. In terms of their inclusion, moderation & etc. They can do A LOT better

 

[Harkins1721]

They interviewed Anita? After her Hitman review in the Tropes video I can't taker her seriously.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is a damn good written article with tons of good sources. The usual suspects will see the word "men" and consider it an attack on their person without actually listening to what's being said, thus proving the point of the article itself specifically the part about the persecution complex that's prevelant in gamer™ culture.. Well done Polygon.

"FOR THESE PEOPLE, WHITE MALE IS THE DEFAULT MODE FOR HUMANITY"

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Ain't that the truth, as anytime there's a woman or minority taking center stage in a piece of media the usual suspects always pop up and asked if it's "forced" or if "it feels natural." And at this point, my only response to that is, "My existence isn't forced, nor is the representation of people who look like me, however, we have devs on record actually being forced to represent white males first and foremost right down to devs having to fight to put someone other than a white male front and center on the cover, so kindly fuck off."

 

[Igniz12]

I don't disagree with the premise. I think the damage done in general media is so severe because it's so casual about it, so as to never really be a thing someone who mindlessly consumes media thinks about. You don't consider the roles women and minorities in media are being relegated to because their being relegated to those roles is just taken as written. That's what makes it super dangerous. You have a world of heightened fictional reality, but those aspects aren't written as if they are a part of the heightened reality. They're the aspects used to 'ground' the media. The damage is done in that its 'realistic' aspects consist of stereotypes and objectification.

The difference with pornographic content is that the heightened reality is the objectification and stereotypes. And I certainly agree that it is highly damaging to folks already in, or predisposed to, a certain mindset. The circle I'm trying to square is the people I know who have a stronger grasp on feminism as a subject than I do and can talk at lengths with me on the subject of race in America, who also willingly and shamelessly admit to getting off on cuckold fiction. Kind of like how the BDSM community has, on average, a stronger grasp on the nature of enthusiastic consent than most people outside of it.

I'm more questioning whether it is a catalyst in and of itself, or if it's something that exacerbates a mental state that already exists in a particular viewer's mind.

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This was the thing I recall from all those Black Panther threads(hey remember those) and people did not understand why a film with a majority black/minority cast was such a big thing with regards to the history of film in hollywood. Some people are really oblivious to the status quo and when something special or remarkable comes along they just dont get why it is a big deal or why people would want to praise it for that fact alone. This lack of understanding leads them to think "Oh, because its a black thing" or a "Woman thing" or a "Minority thing" without actually understanding the context in which it is being praised for. Like the same way people used to feel about Affirmative action but for media.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I don't disagree with the premise. I think the damage done in general media is so severe because it's so casual about it, so as to never really be a thing someone who mindlessly consumes media thinks about. You don't consider the roles women and minorities in media are being relegated to because their being relegated to those roles is just taken as written. That's what makes it super dangerous. You have a world of heightened fictional reality, but those aspects aren't written as if they are a part of the heightened reality. They're the aspects used to 'ground' the media. The damage is done in that its 'realistic' aspects consist of stereotypes and objectification.

The difference with pornographic content is that the heightened reality is the objectification and stereotypes. And I certainly agree that it is highly damaging to folks already in, or predisposed to, a certain mindset. The circle I'm trying to square is the people I know who have a stronger grasp on feminism as a subject than I do and can talk at lengths with me on the subject of race in America, who also willingly and shamelessly admit to getting off on cuckold fiction. Kind of like how the BDSM community has, on average, a stronger grasp on the nature of enthusiastic consent than most people outside of it.

I'm more questioning whether it is a catalyst in and of itself, or if it's something that exacerbates a mental state that already exists in a particular viewer's mind.

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I'm saying it's a contributing factor, not the sole cause. It's also reflective of the pervasiveness of misogyny in our culture. Porn is so misogynistic because our society encourages and reinforces misogyny. Women are treated as objects for men's pleasure, the focal point of any porn video is the man's orgasm, women are routinely demeaned and degraded. Even sexual content geared towards women is full of sexist and misogynistic tropes. By far the most popular 'genre' of Kindle erotica for women features male characters who are the dominant, controlling, extreme alpha-male type, and who engage in jealous, controlling, and forceful behaviors. Part of the appeal of porn is the transgressive nature of it, but that's also why it can be damaging. It is simultaneously an outlet for (sometimes unhealthy) desires, as well as a reflection of the sexism and misogyny in our culture that simultaneously reinforces those messages.

That's before we even get into the affect porn has on young people compared to adults, as young people's brains and attitudes are developing and forming at that time. So what is safe for an adult isnt necessarily safe for a teen.

The other problem is that for many young people, porn is the only exposure they will have to sex and intimacy before reaching adulthood. So it's not just that young people are consuming porn, it's that they are consuming it with little guidance and aren't being exposed to healthier depictions of what relationships and sex are really like.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

They interviewed Anita? After her Hitman review in the Tropes video I can't taker her seriously.

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Why cant you take her seriously? Do you also feel this way about other game critics? Because pretty much every game critic has made factually inaccurate statements about a game before. Human beings can sometimes be wrong about things, that doesnt invalidate all of their work or anything they have to say about a subject forever.

 

[Crossing Eden]

They interviewed Anita? After her Hitman review in the Tropes video I can't taker her seriously.

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This is always the go to example for trying to discredit the work that Anita Sarkeesian put in when it came to improving the game's industry. It's really getting old considering that her point still stands, hitman absolution was an example of a game rife with sexism right down to the embarrassing marketing:

 

[Jerykk]

It happens here whenever anyone says "gamers suck". Someone then comes in to make a thread all about them and about how THEY -don't- suck and stop labelling them. If we could get through a discusson on Era without people trying to talk over the women in the thread about how they're A Good Guy and then tone policing, we'd already be one major step ahead.

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I think the bigger problem is somehow trying to make this gaming-specific. People on the internet act like assholes because they can be do so without physical repercussions. Just peruse Youtube comments or reddit/4chan forums that are completely unrelated to gaming and this will become pretty obvious. The root of the issue has nothing to do with gaming and if you want to fix it, you'll need to think on a much larger scale.

As for porn, does it objectify women and affect how men perceive them? Sure. But again, that has nothing to do with gaming. As for women being sexualized in games, that's primarily an issue with Asian culture (western games have matured considerably in this regard whereas Japanese/Chinese/Korean games have not). Again, not an issue specific to gaming.

Why cant you take her seriously? Do you also feel this way about other game critics? Because pretty much every game critic has made factually inaccurate statements about a game before. Human beings can sometimes be wrong about things, that doesnt invalidate all of their work or anything they have to say about a subject forever.

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It's not about making a mistake. It's about intentionally misrepresenting the facts in order to achieve an agenda. Sarkeesian made it look like the goal of Hitman was to murder strippers and manipulate their corpses for sexual gratification. She knew this obviously wasn't true but went out of her way to misrepresent the game as such. She did the same with Dishonored and Deus Ex, taking neutral gameplay mechanics and systems and making them look like they were designed for misogynistic perverts.

It's a shame because Sarkeesian does make some valid points. However, the way she tries to argue those points is often dishonest and that undermines her position.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I think the bigger problem is somehow trying to make this gaming-specific. People on the internet act like assholes because they can be do so without physical repercussions. Just peruse Youtube comments or reddit/4chan forums that are completely unrelated to gaming and this will become pretty obvious. The root of the issue has nothing to do with gaming and if you want to fix it, you'll need to think on a much larger scale.

As for porn, does it objectify women and affect how men perceive them? Sure. But again, that has nothing to do with gaming. As for women being sexualized in games, that's primarily an issue with Asian culture (western games have matured considerably in this regard whereas Japanese/Chinese/Korean games have not). Again, not an issue specific to gaming.

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It absolutely is related to gaming, and it is not solely an Asian-specific problem. Hell, the thread about pornography on Discord we had today is evidence enough that the issues are linked, not to mention the many games that bridge the gap between porn and traditional game.

 

[Stardestroyer]

They interviewed Anita? After her Hitman review in the Tropes video I can't taker her seriously.

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Yep, it is a great way to show how much we should ignore your opinion and where you said.

 

[Era of not Yakuza]

Not all porn fans™
It is that hard to see that we are not talking about the people who aren't misogynist but that in the end this contribute in some degree to the culture?

This is always the go to example for trying to discredit the work that Anita Sarkeesian put in when it came to improving the game's industry. It's really getting old.

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I watched some days ago a really good video about her work. People just want a justification for their bias, her work and the things she had to fight are inspiring

 

[JusDoIt]

This is great. Say what you want about Polygon, but they're still the only outlet really capable of putting together something like this.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I think the bigger problem is somehow trying to make this gaming-specific. People on the internet act like assholes because they can be do so without physical repercussions. Just peruse Youtube comments or reddit/4chan forums that are completely unrelated to gaming and this will become pretty obvious. The root of the issue has nothing to do with gaming and if you want to fix it, you'll need to think on a much larger scale.

As for porn, does it objectify women and affect how men perceive them? Sure. But again, that has nothing to do with gaming. As for women being sexualized in games, that's primarily an issue with Asian culture (western games have matured considerably in this regard whereas Japanese/Chinese/Korean games have not). Again, not an issue specific to gaming.

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It's absolutely related to gaming and even people outside of gaming like white supremacists have blatantly admitted to recruiting gamers for the purpose of spreading hate, you really cannot argue that there isn't an deep seated problem with gaming culture when gamergate happened and still affects developers today as publishers emboldened toxicity by not taking a hard stance and pushing back on it until recently. Like literally just the list of reasons people use to say that a women or minority shouldn't be the lead in a game or else it "doesn't feel natural." Like no, gaming has a very specific brand of issues that yes, are partly influenced by issues with society as a whole.

 

[Harkins1721]

Why cant you take her seriously? Do you also feel this way about other game critics? Because pretty much every game critic has made factually inaccurate statements about a game before. Human beings can sometimes be wrong about things, that doesnt invalidate all of their work or anything they have to say about a subject forever.

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If other game critics rinse and repeat the same course of action on the games they continue to review then yes.

This is always the go to example for trying to discredit the work that Anita Sarkeesian put in when it came to improving the game's industry. It's really getting old.

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Not discrediting her work. But she repeats the same mistakes over and over.

Yep, it is a great way to show how much we should ignore your opinion and where you said.

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Congratz? Never said you should listen to my opinion. I expressed why I stop listening to someone else.

 

[The Adder]

It is that hard to see that we are not talking about the people who aren't misogynist but that in the end this contribute in some degree to the culture?

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You didn't actually read the conversation, did you?

 

[Deleted member 15326]

The gaming industry has actively promoted the attitudes responsible for the toxicity in gaming for at least 25 years, and it was allowed to fester this long because no one profiting from it was concerned or held responsible.

You can see similar attitudes in consumer bases for other forms of entertainment BUT the other industries are nowhere near as indifferent to criticism and the continuing harassment of people working in those industries.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Not discrediting her work. But she repeats the same mistakes over and over.

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Stop while you're ahead fam.

 

[Jerykk]

It absolutely is related to gaming, and it is not solely an Asian-specific problem. Hell, the thread about pornography on Discord we had today is evidence enough that the issues are linked, not to mention the many games that bridge the gap between porn and traditional game.

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Gamers are generally younger and more tech-savvy, making it easier and more likely for them to find, access and distribute pornographic material on the internet. However, that doesn't mean that being a gamer is what lead to said activities. Correlation does not imply causation.

It's absolutely related to gaming and even people outside of gaming like white supremacists have blatantly admitted to recruiting gamers for the purpose of spreading hate, you really cannot argue that there isn't an deep seated problem with gaming culture when gamergate happened and still affects developers today as publishers emboldened toxicity by not taking a hard stance and pushing back on it until recently. Like literally just the list of reasons people use to say that a women or minority shouldn't be the lead in a game or else it "doesn't feel natural." Like no, gaming has a very specific brand of issues that yes, are partly influenced by issues with society as a whole.

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As I mentioned above, gamers are generally young and tech-savvy. Being young means you're easier to influence and being tech-savvy means you're more likely to use technology as a social tool. People act like gamergate is somehow a unique phenomenon. It's not. Female celebrities in all industries regularly receive death threats, rape threats, dick pics and other forms of sexual harassment and persecution. The difference is that those incidents aren't highly publicized because they're so common. The New York Times isn't going to report that Jennifer Lawrence received yet another death threat, whereas the gaming media will report every single death threat they learn of.

The same is true of resentment of women or minorities in lead roles. When Sam Jackson was announced as Nick Fury, a lot of people were angry because the comic character was white. Black Panther received a lot of flak for its almost exclusively black cast from all the same people who would criticize games for the same thing. These are the same racist, misogynist assholes criticizing the same things in gaming, television, film, anime, comics and any other form of popular culture. It's not limited to gaming nor caused by being a gamer.

 

[The Adder]

Gamers are generally younger and more tech-savvy, making it easier and more likely for them to find, access and distribute pornographic material on the internet. However, that doesn't mean that being a gamer is what lead to said activities. Correlation does not imply causation.

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Nah. The culture around gaming is pretty damn toxic. Put on a pair of headphones or go watch a popular streamer for about ten minutes.

 

[KingM]

If other game critics rinse and repeat the same course of action on the games they continue to review then yes.



Not discrediting her work. But she repeats the same mistakes over and over.



.

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The ability to do those things was put I to the.game on purpose for the amusement of the player .While not required to progress they are still a part of the game. It's not misrepresentative to point it out when it's something that players can, and often, do .

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Gamers are generally younger and more tech-savvy, making it easier and more likely for them to find, access and distribute pornographic material on the internet. However, that doesn't mean that being a gamer is what lead to said activities. Correlation does not imply causation.

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I didnt say it was causation, I'm saying they are both related to the prevalence of misogyny, and thus relevant to the discussion. My first exposure to pornography as a kid was through an online flash game, I'm sure that's true for many people my age. For many others, their first exposure was probably rule 34 of a game they liked while looking up stuff about it on the internet. They are inextricably linked in many ways, even in the way female characters in games were created and how games were marketed back in the 90's/early 2000's and even still today. The Polygon article directly touches on this topic.

 

[newmoneytrash]

*chef's kiss*

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this is really good

 

[Era of not Yakuza]

You didn't actually read the conversation, did you?

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I completely agree with you, even about people who enjoy BDSM and love porn. I was upset because every time a problems gets spotlight someone appears saying "but not all...", Instead of saying things like "it's true, we (Society) must do better than this"

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I completely agree with you, even about people who enjoy BDSM and love porn. I was upset because every time a problems gets spotlight someone appears saying "but not all...", Instead of saying things like "it's true, we (Society) must do better than this"

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Just to expand on this, something doesnt have to be the sole cause of a problem to contribute to it, nor does it have to be a factor in 100% of all cases.

Just as an example, not all addicts will commit suicide. That doesnt change the fact that addiction struggles can be a contributing factor that leads people to taking their own life.

 

[The Adder]

I completely agree with you, even about people who enjoy BDSM and love porn. I was upset because every time a problems gets spotlight someone appears saying "but not all...", Instead of saying things like "it's true, we (Society) must do better than this"

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Sure, but that wasn't my point. And forgive me if you were addressing someone else and not me. The point is that you have to figure out whether the issue you're addressing is a cause, a symptom, or an irritant before knowing how to best approach fixing it.

 

[Bhonar]

wat does rubrics mean?

 

[Jerykk]

Nah. The culture around gaming is pretty damn toxic. Put on a pair of headphones or go watch a popular streamer for about ten minutes.

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Watch any popular young person on a Youtube channel unrelated to gaming and there's a good chance they'll act like a douchebag. That's probably how they became popular in the first place. Remember Logan Paul? If you're an immature asshat playing a multiplayer game, you're probably going to continue acting like an immature asshat while playing said game. It's not like these kids were mature and respectful gentlemen until they got their hands on a videogame, at which point they turned into racist and sexist monsters. They were already douchebags to begin with, likely due to poor parenting.

I didnt say it was causation, I'm saying they are both related to the prevalence of misogyny, and thus relevant to the discussion. My first exposure to pornography as a kid was through an online flash game, I'm sure that's true for many people my age. For many others, their first exposure was probably rule 34 of a game they liked while looking up stuff about it on the internet. They are inextricably linked in many ways, even in the way female characters in games were created and how games were marketed back in the 90's/early 2000's and even still today. The Polygon article directly touches on this topic.

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I'm pretty sure the modern generation will be exposed to porn through free sites like pornhub or redtube. As for the previous generations, yes, sex was used as a marketing tool... just as it was in every other medium. Remember Basic Instinct? Showgirls? American Pie? Porky's? Hell, you can even see it back in 1960 with Psycho. Playboy's first issue was published in 1953 and had a huge impact on the cultural perception of women. Gaming, like any other medium, does not exist in a vacuum. It's a reflection of cultural and societal norms. As western culture has slowly become less sexist, this has been reflected in western games. Asian cultures remain as sexist as ever and unsurprisingly, their games reflect that.

No one is saying this. You created a strawman and are arguing against that rather than anything the article or posters in this thread have actually said.

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The poster who wrote that was making the false correlation between being a gamer and being an asshole. People who scream racial and sexist epithets while playing Halo would do the exact same thing in any other activity where there are no real consequences. Gaming as a medium did not turn them into what they are. It simply gave them an outlet for their inherent douchebaggery.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Watch any popular young person on a Youtube channel unrelated to gaming and there's a good chance they'll act like a douchebag. That's probably how they became popular in the first place. Remember Logan Paul? If you're an immature asshat playing a multiplayer game, you're probably going to continue acting like an immature asshat while playing said game. It's not like these kids were mature and respectful gentlemen until they got their hands on a videogame, at which point they turned into racist and sexist monsters. They were already douchebags to begin with, likely due to poor parenting.

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No one is saying this. You created a strawman and are arguing against that rather than anything the article or posters in this thread have actually said.

 

[Harkins1721]

Stop while you're ahead fam.

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No im good. She makes it a point that the player is encouraged to attack, kill, and play with these strippers. You can go up to a male character kill them and strip them of their clothes and leave them there in their underwear. She cherry picked her material.

 

[BDubsLegend]

Sometimes articles like this while having valid points, create such an antagonistic tone it pushes away people that belong to the group being criticized but don't practice destructive behaviors. It's clear misogyny, racism and LGBTQ discrimination are problems in video game culture but as someone mentioned earlier these are problems on the internet as a whole. While games have become more mainstream over the last decade, I feel games reflect culture more than set it. Lots of people focus on games I guess because it's their entertainment if choice, but I personally feel wider societal changes would have more impact than changing individual games.

But more to my point, some threads on Era have increasing become hostile to anyone, that doesn't conform to increasingly liberal viewpoints and there is no room for moderate opinions on any social issue. I'm not talking about being moderate on what is racist or sexist there is little Grey area there, but if you don't vehemently disown, boycott, call out, and condemn anyone that the echo chamber decides needs to go you risk backlash. Honestly it can feel like people are more in a rush to tell someone how much of a piece of shit they are and anyone like them than actually discuss the issues challenging the industry today. It makes it scary to comment in any social/political thread.

But to bring it back to the article at hand, It's a massive amount analysis about the causes for some of the more vicious actors in the gaming community, it deserves a read and is a good topic for discussion.

Oh and just to clarify I am not a white male.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

All these claims of gaming not being uniquely toxic are fucking bullshit in light of how many prominent alt right figures came to prominence from Gamergate. FORMER WHITE NATIONALISTS HAVE ADMITTED IN WRITING THAT THEY SPECIFICALLY RECRUIT GAMERS YOU DUMB DENSE FUCKS

 

[Deleted member 27471]

Sometimes articles like this while having valid points, create such an antagonistic tone it pushes away people that belong to the group being criticized but don't practice destructive behaviors. It's clear misogyny, racism and LGBTQ discrimination are problems in video game culture but as someone mentioned earlier these are problems on the internet as a whole. While games have become more mainstream over the last decade, I feel games reflect culture more than set it. Lots of people focus on games I guess because it's their entertainment if choice, but I personally feel wider societal changes would have more impact than changing individual games.

But more to my point, some threads on Era have increasing become hostile to anyone, that doesn't conform to increasingly liberal viewpoints and there is no room for moderate opinions on any social issue. I'm not talking about being moderate on what is racist or sexist there is little Grey area there, but if you don't vehemently disown, boycott, call out, and condemn anyone that the echo chamber decides needs to go you risk backlash. Honestly it can feel like people are more in a rush to tell someone how much of a piece of shit they are and anyone like them than actually discuss the issues challenging the industry today. It makes it scary to comment in any social/political thread.

But to bring it back to the article at hand, It's a massive amount analysis about the causes for some of the more vicious actors in the gaming community, it deserves a read and is a good topic for discussion.

Oh and just to clarify I am not a white male.

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Thank you.

 

[Urban Scholar]

It's clear misogyny, racism and LGBTQ discrimination are problems in video game culture but as someone mentioned earlier these are problems on the internet as a whole.

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The article does acknowledge this often & makes that clear.

So for the rest of your points. Yes this does paint an antagonistic view, it's antagonistic in nature. This article is merely mentioning things matter of factually mind you. It's antagonistic because well come on.

Yes larger social changes would help. But that's not going to happen fast enough. The short leaps is making hobbies/entertaining like gaming more inclusive. Yes certain demographics will feel some kind of way...

But it'll create an environment where seeing PoCs, LBGTQIA, and more women is like every day life. Then those opposed to it will either slowly change and get over it. Or you know not & get themselves banned on this forum as an example.

Edit: I want to note if someone makes a case for civility in regards to this subject...that's ridiculous. Civility was thrown out the window by people once these became issues.

 

[Shig]

It's a great article and effort, but I feel like they really, really undermined any hope of reaching over to the people its addressing by leading with this in their introductions:

I'm a feminist media scholar, and as such, I don't believe in gender essentialism. While sex is biological, gender is a social construct. We are trained from childhood to behave in certain gendered ways.

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Having a line like that up front and center, that immediately pepper sprays the subjects with a laser-concentrated dose of their movement's favorite trigger words, pretty much guarantees that the people that really need to read the piece and self-evaluate their behavior will just REEEEEEEEEEE away from the whole thing.

 

[BlackJace]

Anybody actually upset at the term "straight white male" is exactly who this article is talking about.

Good fucking god yall. It sucks to be examined under a spotlight huh?

Fake edit: Also can we stop with this "echo chamber" nonsense? If intolerance of defending/resisting bigoted opinions is an echo chamber, why in the hell is that not a good thing? What, we can't have our favorite medium be too welcoming to every demographic?

 

[Deleted member 4346]

There's a lot to unpack there. A couple of points I want to highlight:

No matter how many times GamerGaters vociferously deny it, video game culture has been a boys' club for a very long time. It's not too different from older forms of media. The only difference is that older forms of media have had more time to diversify and include narratives and experiences which are more reflective of the experiences of a wider variety of people.

Video games are on the event horizon of a similar transitional period, yet we've seen this unprecedented pushback from self-identified gamers at every turn.

Gamers are afraid of change. They seem to believe that any attempt to amplify the voices of marginalized people in the game space must also come with a suppression of their own voice.

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I don't think games are unique with this pushback. We are seeing it across the Western world. That's what the 2016 presidential election in the US was about, what Brexit was about, why right-wing nativism is growing across Europe and the US and Canada. This is about a general resentment among white men both young and old about perceived "oppression"- which is simply other groups getting increased representation. I think it's important not to take for granted that diversification across all media, not just gaming, is under attack. Star Wars fans drove Kelly Marie Tran off of Twitter, or why the alt-right dug up James Gunn's old inappropriate jokes, or Trevor Noah's. And while I agree that film and TV and music do a better job of representing diverse perspectives, let's not pretend that they don't have a long way to go still.

I want to believe that it's not intentional, but it's hard to understand why episodes of Game of Thrones are wiped from places like YouTube within nanoseconds, while chronic abusers are allowed to flourish.

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I hadn't thought about this, but it's an excellent point. And it goes towards how tech companies are complicit in all of this. It would be relatively trivial for YouTube, or Facebook, or Twitter, or Reddit, to automatically flag content for words or phrases and have a human review that flagged content in near-realtime for hate speech, threats, doxxing, harassment, etc. That they do not do it is an indication that a) it's all about profits, and they have no real desire to limit the damage done by the alt right and b) the employees of these companies by-and-large are made up of the same demographic as the alt-right and I think it's likely that many techbros share the same perspectives. We need to start turning away from these platforms until they start policing their users better. Perhaps create our own, diversified social media platforms.

 

[HStallion]

The gaming community is highly toxic and your go to response is that a lot of internet is like that. Yeah and? That doesn't let the gaming community off the hook for their shit and comes off as a huge cop out that wants to ignore the issue because shit sucks elsewhere. Come off it. It's fucking tired.

 

[BDubsLegend]

The article does acknowledge this often & makes that clear.

So for the rest of your points. Yes this does paint an antagonistic view, it's antagonistic in nature. This article is merely mentioning things matter of factually mind you. It's antagonistic because well come on.

Yes larger social changes would help. But that's not going to happen fast enough. The short leaps is making hobbies/entertaining like gaming more inclusive. Yes certain demographics will feel some kind of way...

But it'll create an environment where seeing PoCs, LBGTQIA, and more women is like every day life. Then those opposed to it will either slowly change and get over it. Or you know not & get themselves banned on this forum as an example.

Edit: I want to note if someone makes a case for civility in regards to this subject...that's ridiculous. Civility was thrown out the window by people once these became issues.

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I'm not saying you can't be angry or upset about the issues, but if antagonistic is the default tone then expect war or silence. People are either gonna not participate in the discussion or they are going to be antagonistic back to you. In the age of the internet politics have become a fight instead of a discussion where you with for me or against me. This doesn't lead to discussion it doesn't lead to changing hearts and minds either. But that's just my opinion.

People like to shout "tone policing" when people make statements about this, but the only thing constant aggression and name-calling helps is increasing the echo chamber. If anything we should be better than trolls. In my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 19066]

People who find straight white male insulting.

It's quite interesting that's what people have taken from this article.

You know what's worse than straight white male? Slurs.

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That nail had some velocity!

 

[HStallion]

I'm not saying you can't be angry or upset about the issues, but if antagonistic is the default tone then expect war or silence. People are either gonna not participate in the discussion or they are going to be antagonistic back to you. In the age of the internet politics have become a fight instead of a discussion where you with for me or against me. This doesn't lead to discussion it doesn't lead to changing hearts and minds either. But that's just my opinion.

People like to shout "tone policing" when statements when people feel this way but the only thing constant aggression and name-calling helps is increasing the echo chamber. If anything we should be better than trolls. In my opinion.

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The toxic fucks aren't going to have a conversation just because you're nice to them. They do not ever want to have that discussion otherwise they would have had it already. These people are out there to hurt others and you act like we should treat them better than they treat anyone else.

 

[Jerykk]

Stop while you're ahead fam.

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Those rebuttals are lacking and make it clear that the writer(s) aren't very familiar with the Hitman games.

For example: "To put in other terms, if the developers didn't want the players to interact with/sightsee the strippers, why does the level take place in a strip club?"

In Hitman, NPCs serve two roles: to provide disguises and items and/or act as mobile security systems. You can't steal women's clothing in Hitman so strippers don't provide any disguises. However, they, like every other NPC, can see and hear you. If they see or hear you attacking anyone or roaming in a restricted area, they'll run to the nearest guard and warn them about you, at which point the guard will investigate and potentially sound the alarm.

The level takes place in a strip club for the same reason that any level takes place anywhere: to provide a unique setting that offers different tools and obstacles. Just because a level has strippers doesn't mean that you're supposed to kill them. Same goes for cooks, waiters, janitors, reporters, tourists, shop owners, patients, mechanics or any of the bazillion NPCs in the Hitman games. Sarkeesian complained that the penalty for killing strippers wasn't severe enough, which means she either wanted strippers to be invincible or for their murder to cause an automatic alarm or fail state. Regardless of penalty, changing the game's rules for this one specific NPC type would be ridiculous and undermine the sandbox nature of Hitman's gameplay for no logical reason. I think Sarkeesian also suggested removing the strippers entirely which would also be absurd given that the level takes place in a strip club. That would be like having a police station with no police. She'd probably take it a step further and demand that the strip club level be removed entirely but at that point, should we remove any level that would potentially be offensive to a vocal minority? There's another level in Hitman: Absolution that takes place in an orphanage full of dead nuns and another level where an entire town is being wiped out by mercenaries.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

I'm not saying you can't be angry or upset about the issues, but if antagonistic is the default tone then expect war or silence. People are either gonna not participate in the discussion or they are going to be antagonistic back to you. In the age of the internet politics have become a fight instead of a discussion where you with for me or against me. This doesn't lead to discussion it doesn't lead to changing hearts and minds either. But that's just my opinion.

People like to shout "tone policing" when statements when people feel this way but the only thing constant aggression and name-calling helps is increasing the echo chamber. If anything we should be better than trolls. In my opinion.

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The "other side" is making threats, harassing, or fuck, engaging in mass shootings or mowing down protesters with their cars. I think that complaining we are uncivil sometimes lacks perspective on your part, yeah?

 

[Deleted member 27471]

The toxic fucks aren't going to have a conversation just because you're nice to them. They do not ever want to have that discussion otherwise they would have had it already.

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They are talking about the people who actually want to have a discussion. By all means if someone is being an asshole to you, be one back.

 

[Urban Scholar]

I'm not saying you can't be angry or upset about the issues, but if antagonistic is the default tone then expect war or silence. People are either gonna not participate in the discussion or they are going to be antagonistic back to you. In the age of the internet politics have become a fight instead of a discussion where you with for me or against me. This doesn't lead to discussion it doesn't lead to changing hearts and minds either. But that's just my opinion.

People like to shout "tone policing" when statements when people feel this way but the only thing constant aggression and name-calling helps is increasing the echo chamber. If anything we should be better than trolls. In my opinion.

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I feel what your saying but how does a discussion happen? When everything mentioned in that article despite being true is met with pushback.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But if I hand a report of hey here are all the things you did. & you want to fold your arms and tune out how does the conversation start with those demographics?

 

[Dracon]

Most toxic gamers haras other players just for the sake of it, its not a secret agenda. The exception maybe is the harassment that women suffer.

 

[III-V]

https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/25/17593516/video-game-culture-toxic-men-explained

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really like their top of the page image, because that is literally what is up.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Those rebuttals are lacking and make it clear that the writer(s) aren't very familiar with the Hitman games.

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The developers designed a level where you assassinate a target in a strip club with the added option of knocking out strippers with a minor penalty to the score, yes this is fundamentally the same mechanic for Mocs who aren't strippers, but the context is changed specifically when the background npcs are strippers because art doesn't exist in a vacuum. They also commissioned a trailer around the level where you brutally murder scantily clad nun assassins. In the same game, one of the final targets is the lover of the main villain, who strips in front of you before she tries to kill you. This is the same game which opens up with a voyeuristic view of a woman showering. Hitman Absolution was really garbage when it came into its portrayal of women.

 

[HStallion]

They are talking about the people who actually want to have a discussion. By all means if someone is being an asshole to you, be one back.

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We're the ones discussing things. The people this article is writing about never want to have this discussion and go to disgusting lengths to avoid and crush that conversation. Calling it antagonistic because it goes over these very serious issues in a well written and in depth manner comes at it from the view of the toxic base.