There is a lot of debate regarding sexualization/objectification of video game characters. So, I'm wondering if there are examples of explicitly sexual characters that would be considered as positive representation?
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Positive sexual representation in games: is it possible?
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I know it's one a lot of people think the opposite about, but I think Bayonetta falls under this. She has full ownership of it.
You MIGHT be able to argue 2B, but 2B is just kind of indifferent to it and is a badass character in general. She's not sexualized while vulnerable for whatever reason. I'd hardly argue the fact that you see her more mechanical parts when you use the self-destruct is not sexualization.
You MIGHT be able to argue 2B, but 2B is just kind of indifferent to it and is a badass character in general. She's not sexualized while vulnerable for whatever reason. I'd hardly argue the fact that you see her more mechanical parts when you use the self-destruct is not sexualization.
It's a mixed bag, but I think there are a fair number characters in the Yakuza series who meet this bill. Ranging from being explicitly sexual to very subtly.
I think part of this is because the sexualized nature of many of the characters (both men and women) actually fits very well within the setting.
It's definitely a "your mileage may vary" type of thing though.
I think part of this is because the sexualized nature of many of the characters (both men and women) actually fits very well within the setting.
It's definitely a "your mileage may vary" type of thing though.
I don't see why you couldn't.
The issue with objectification is that it reduces characters to their sex appeal, or injects sex appeal into a game at the expense of everything else.
Well written characters, that have the time to develop, display and examine their sexuality in the context of the game and the story, could very well work.
About 2B...
The issue with objectification is that it reduces characters to their sex appeal, or injects sex appeal into a game at the expense of everything else.
Well written characters, that have the time to develop, display and examine their sexuality in the context of the game and the story, could very well work.
About 2B...
I think it's pretty clear that 2B's design isn't intended as a "positive" representation, it's there because Taro wanted eye candy. Now, I'd agree 2B's design more than succeeds in that regard.
It's not positive rep though.
That said, I'd argue that 2B's characterization worked well, writing-wise, when it came to her relationship with 9S and their star-crossed romance.
It's not positive rep though.
That said, I'd argue that 2B's characterization worked well, writing-wise, when it came to her relationship with 9S and their star-crossed romance.
The only reason I'd argue 2B is because she doesn't act like she's "forced" into it or anything. A weird comparison, but I think it's 2B versus Ann from Persona 5:
Like wtf is this shit Atlus??? Nobody gets knocked unconscious and lays down like this. Nobody.
Mad Moxxi in Borderlands never bothered me. Her characterization made sense and the camera didn't ogle her stupidly. If anyone "owns her sexuality" or whatever, it'd be her more than the commonly listed example of Bayonetta.
Eva (MGS3) is fine in this cut scene because it makes sense, though it's dumb as all hell when she walks around dressed like that all the time.
Eva (MGS3) is fine in this cut scene because it makes sense, though it's dumb as all hell when she walks around dressed like that all the time.
She totally owns the camera zooming on her crotch huh :p
Shit no. 2B is pure objectification. There's even an achievement to look up under her skirt FFS
Those are both fair points. I actually forgot about that achievement in Nier: Automata. I agree now that 2B is objectification, however I'm still not 100% sure I agree about Bayo. Bayo is one people have argued over for a very long time.
I would absolutely argue Bayonetta. All of the action sequences of those games are of angels/demons attempting to enter her, and her responding "Absolutely not."
I've not seen much of Bayonetta, but isn't she playing with the player and the camera in a way?
It's difficult to develop a game, especially at the AA/AAA level, that's primarily about sexuality. It would be difficult to market it, to sell it, and to do justice to it.
The only game on such a scale I can think of that's centered around sexuality is Catherine, and the moment you take that game seriously, it becomes an utter trainwreck.
That said, yeah, I love her design but I can't refute anyone saying she's objectified (I mean, I personally read her somewhat differently myself, but Taro himself says she's there for eye candy, c'mon).
The only game on such a scale I can think of that's centered around sexuality is Catherine, and the moment you take that game seriously, it becomes an utter trainwreck.
They're definitely not on the same caliber in my esteem, Ann's an incredibly hamfisted "attempt" at positive sexuality. Arguably 2B's design plays into the game's thematics about differences between androids and machines, etc.etc. also, but no need to get that deep into it.The only reason I'd argue 2B is because she doesn't act like she's "forced" into it or anything. A weird comparison, but I think it's 2B versus Ann from Persona 5:
Like wtf is this shit Atlus??? Nobody gets knocked unconscious and lays down like this. Nobody.
That said, yeah, I love her design but I can't refute anyone saying she's objectified (I mean, I personally read her somewhat differently myself, but Taro himself says she's there for eye candy, c'mon).
Yes, by including context and not making pandering to horny teenagers your default mode.
Like, no one complains about games that have actual decently done sexual content like Drake and Chloe having sex in Uncharted 2 or the sex scene (which I remembered being better than it is) in Wolfenstein TNC. People complain when the default mode for female characters (and sometimes male) in games is clothing more akin to what you'd find in the strip club rather than for the situation at hand.
I mean, no, she's not. The scenario and scene directors are, but it's not like bayonetta has agency over your sexuality, or even if you perceive her as sexy or not.
Bayonetta? She is pretty sexualized but not in a bad way? It looks like her sex appeal makes her fierce
WAT
Bayonetta, yes. 2B, lol. 2B is a character who looks like a fetishy pinup while her personality shows no interest in or knowledge of sex or sexuality at all. She's an anime trope. The self destruct that shows us her ass is just icing. There's this thing anime often likes to do where female characters seem to have sexuality thrust onto them while their personality shows no interest in it, or even comes across in some cases as overly innocent/naive. We see it again and again - that dissonance.
I don't have an argument with you if you like 2B or Nier, but come on.
Like, the only overtly panderingly sexual design that worked in the context of its individual game that doesn't begin and end at "durhur sex" is maybe Lollipop Chainsaw, and even then, the middle of the game goes off on a wild slut-shaming tangent that, I believe, is supposed to be the voice of the patriarchy being red-faced and steaming at an attractive woman doing anything, but feels more like someone just...actually slut-shaming Juliet.
That being said, that game did more than most in trying to do anything with it's sexual nature.
There is 1 reason and one reason only to ever use the self destruct.
2B is 100% a sexualized pandering design. She's still cool, but let's not get crazy thinking that she's bucking the trend, she's not. She's reenforcing the trend HARD.
That being said, that game did more than most in trying to do anything with it's sexual nature.
There is 1 reason and one reason only to ever use the self destruct.
2B is 100% a sexualized pandering design. She's still cool, but let's not get crazy thinking that she's bucking the trend, she's not. She's reenforcing the trend HARD.
It's a common anime trope, they've used it beforeThe only reason I'd argue 2B is because she doesn't act like she's "forced" into it or anything. A weird comparison, but I think it's 2B versus Ann from Persona 5:
Like wtf is this shit Atlus??? Nobody gets knocked unconscious and lays down like this. Nobody.
Fictional character have to be imagined up by someone and written for an audience and by their very nature they're objects created to carry a narrative right?
Like even if the narrative is strongly implying that they are independent and they chose all their actions of their own agency, is it really even the characters agency or the writers? The character isn't even benefiting from this, the player is because they get a story to watch.
Like even if the narrative is strongly implying that they are independent and they chose all their actions of their own agency, is it really even the characters agency or the writers? The character isn't even benefiting from this, the player is because they get a story to watch.
I'm sorry I'm just being pedantic
Anyone on here saying bayonetta, i just.... no.
Bayonetta is like the quintessential woman embracing the male gaze. I hate it. It's male gaze sexuality sold to you under the guise of "she's into it".
Now... Drakengard 3. The game where the woman is really into sex, but the game never shows you any sex or sexual content, but instead the main character talks about what she wants. Says no (consent, folks!) Has her period (i know folks, women be icky!). Her sexuality is completely contextualized in her words, her wants, and is never something the player's gaze gets to partake in. Now that's positive sexual representation....
But that game got shit on because "lol bad game" and people said it was fetish bait even though, again, you never see anything and people completely missed the entire point of the character as a subject talking about her desires instead of bayonetta where her desire is apparently to be an object and act like a stripper for the camera as she winks at the the player because "I know what you came for, boys".
Barf
(i'm waiting for the first person to just rebut with "oh but beyonetta was designed by a woman!"
Bayonetta is like the quintessential woman embracing the male gaze. I hate it. It's male gaze sexuality sold to you under the guise of "she's into it".
Now... Drakengard 3. The game where the woman is really into sex, but the game never shows you any sex or sexual content, but instead the main character talks about what she wants. Says no (consent, folks!) Has her period (i know folks, women be icky!). Her sexuality is completely contextualized in her words, her wants, and is never something the player's gaze gets to partake in. Now that's positive sexual representation....
But that game got shit on because "lol bad game" and people said it was fetish bait even though, again, you never see anything and people completely missed the entire point of the character as a subject talking about her desires instead of bayonetta where her desire is apparently to be an object and act like a stripper for the camera as she winks at the the player because "I know what you came for, boys".
Barf
(i'm waiting for the first person to just rebut with "oh but beyonetta was designed by a woman!"
I don't debate that she's sexualized but I'd actually debate this point, but it'd go into discussing the particulars of the game, and I'm not sure this is the thread for it.
That's...
In effort to not spoil things...Drakengard 3 is hardly what I'd use to show off a positive sexual entity.
Zero? All her partners in game are willing participants. She's not preying on anyone.
I cite her because her sexuality is hers. (as far as a character written by a man goes).
She defines when she has sex, how she has sex, and it's not something the player (and by extension your gaze) gets to enjoy. You can only enjoy it through her as a subject, not her as an object to be gawked at. Which is where bayonetta fails. I think people completely miss out on the consideration of dealing with women as people (subject) and dealing with women as exploitable (object) "well bayonetta does this because she wants to" doesn't defeat the argument that bayonetta's sexuality is entirely to objectify herself for the viewer.
The only reason I'd argue 2B is because she doesn't act like she's "forced" into it or anything. A weird comparison, but I think it's 2B versus Ann from Persona 5:
Like wtf is this shit Atlus??? Nobody gets knocked unconscious and lays down like this. Nobody.
Yamazaki does it as well from CVS2 (use to make me laugh cause I was like "who loses like that?!?!" lol)
I think moxxi and bayonetta are good picks.
What about rainbow mika from street fighter? I don't know my SF lore very well but it makes sense to me that a pro wrestler would be all about saucy taunts and suggestive poses.
Dante from DMC as well, same dif as bayonetta.
I guess it's complicated, I don't think a character has to be sex-positive to be a good representation necessarily but with the hypocrisy in which many women in media are depicted and the double standards in society, it kinda helps.
What about rainbow mika from street fighter? I don't know my SF lore very well but it makes sense to me that a pro wrestler would be all about saucy taunts and suggestive poses.
Dante from DMC as well, same dif as bayonetta.
I guess it's complicated, I don't think a character has to be sex-positive to be a good representation necessarily but with the hypocrisy in which many women in media are depicted and the double standards in society, it kinda helps.
It's a bigger problem when a character doesn't present their sexual nature at all, yet are dressed in a way that society would determine to be extremely sex-positive, as it usually reduces anotherwise serious character into something simply to be oggled.
So many games do literally nothing with their sexualized designs, yet insist on having them for no other reason than to cater to what they think lonely nerds want.
That's usually just the truth though.
::Side eye to tecmo::
the "owning their sexuality" line of reasoning has never made sense to me when talking about fictional characters. that's an argument you can make to talk about real people with actual agency (models, sex workers, etc etc) but is completely baffling in regards to games. games aren't real. someone authored all the content.
bayonetta works for people (a lot, anyway; obviously not everyone) because the presentation is cohesive. literally all the imagery in bayonetta revolves around sexuality and jokes about bdsm. it's a core part of the aesthetic and that's all the justification it needs. it does what it says on the tin, whereas in a lot of games the tone and presentation will have literally no sexual themes aside from "well there's a girl here so we GOTTA see those boobs awooga" and so it'll feel incredibly superfluous and leering.
bayonetta works for people (a lot, anyway; obviously not everyone) because the presentation is cohesive. literally all the imagery in bayonetta revolves around sexuality and jokes about bdsm. it's a core part of the aesthetic and that's all the justification it needs. it does what it says on the tin, whereas in a lot of games the tone and presentation will have literally no sexual themes aside from "well there's a girl here so we GOTTA see those boobs awooga" and so it'll feel incredibly superfluous and leering.
I like Nier but saying that 2B is not sexualized is bullshit, come on.
2B is what pushed Automata to become a multi million seller.
2B is what pushed Automata to become a multi million seller.
Yoko Taro mentioned he told the character modeler to make the best ass or he's fired and the guy made her butt out of fear. I believe this story tbh.
She's 100% sexually objectified and for me that's fine! I understand if some people don't like the fact -- but let's be real!
There are people that have a problem with quiet, but then not 2b. Seems hypocritical.
The argument could be leveraged against anything, even non sexual characteristics. I find it a little stupid since it means characters can't stand or represent anything because the creators motives can always be called into question.
MGSV's story/characters explicitly points out Quiet's sexuality, as well as turning it up way more than 2B. The only time Nier references 2B's sexuality is through an achievement. In MGSV all the guys are oogling Quiet, in Nier:A not a single character gives a fuck.
Pretty much. I remember when I by accidentally self destructed and was confused at what exactly it did. It's only there to show off 2B's ass. I can sorta understand why since the devs actually spent time on making that asset of hers well rendered and what not but cmon it's pure fanservice. I think Yoko Taro wanted them to work on her ass especially.
The quiet stuff is so insane, it's hard to not criticize.
I get why people try to let 2B off, because a game where a bunch of space maid robots basically spend their time contemplating existence and fighting "ugly" robots is about the most anime concept you can come up with and really isn't that out of place in Japanese pop media.
Wait, but I hear everyone say that mgs is a very anime series too, and then you could argue quiet is also just an anime trope.
It would require actually having a relationship in media go past the "get them" phase but yes.
I have a huge problem with the fact that I can't be "in a relationship" in games. That "Getting the girl/guy" is the endgame and there isn't choice involved and/or a romantic arc for characters. Don't get me wrong most writers can barely handle the writing currently in games, but I would kill for a game where you can romance someone before the very end of the game and actually enjoy that and show healthy relationship tropes (and even sex) in a positive way.
Mass Effect had a lot of problems but the shit like inviting Tali to the apartment or other things like having romance specific dialogue in ME3 "Yeah, you missed me" and stuff is where I had hoped writing would go. But we kinda abandoned that. I think Mass Effect is the closest we've gotten though.
I'd much rather have half a "pick your waifu" game where I actually get to pick my waifu (or my gf her husbando) and get to enjoy the relationships and maybe present problems that arise in relationships after, but like I said, writing is barely able to handle the surface level stuff it currently tackles and even movies won't touch these types of arcs.
I have a huge problem with the fact that I can't be "in a relationship" in games. That "Getting the girl/guy" is the endgame and there isn't choice involved and/or a romantic arc for characters. Don't get me wrong most writers can barely handle the writing currently in games, but I would kill for a game where you can romance someone before the very end of the game and actually enjoy that and show healthy relationship tropes (and even sex) in a positive way.
Mass Effect had a lot of problems but the shit like inviting Tali to the apartment or other things like having romance specific dialogue in ME3 "Yeah, you missed me" and stuff is where I had hoped writing would go. But we kinda abandoned that. I think Mass Effect is the closest we've gotten though.
I'd much rather have half a "pick your waifu" game where I actually get to pick my waifu (or my gf her husbando) and get to enjoy the relationships and maybe present problems that arise in relationships after, but like I said, writing is barely able to handle the surface level stuff it currently tackles and even movies won't touch these types of arcs.