Yep, if you were sentenced to life in prison for a parking offence, it would be reasonable, just and your fault because you broke the law.
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Pro-independence protesters cut off Barcelona’s major roads
- Thread starter Deleted member 721
- Start date
My guess is you haven't been in many demonstrations yourself. I've had the opportunity of being first hand in riots (cadiz, bizkaia, asturian mines) and when things heat up, violence always pop. It is unfortunate, but Trapero himself said it'd incite violence.
To be fair with Sanchez, it's hard to talk with someone whose only proposal was "we are leaving, let's discuss who pays". And if you had to name, who would speak for catalonia, since, as a previous poster helpfully clarified, Torra is not the leader even if he is the one "democratically" chosen?
You talk about transition, that time not so long ago that we moved from a facist dictatorship to democracy like magic.
What Catalonia could get there was, much less that had before the dictatorship. Catalan language is not only spoken in catalonia, spanish goverment doesn't help these minor languages more than regional tv segments. And it's kind of sad to be losing so many languages that spain actually has just because the regions don't have the money to pay the costs of maintain the language. Unfair economic competition like helping foreing big companies to move the headquarter to spanish regions. Authoritarian from central goverment because the justice and politics go in hand if you are in the correct side of being an unionist.
Unfair law like interpretations of the constitution, also aproved by ERC by a time that the other option was to go back to dictatorship, that can bring peaceful protesters leaders (this time is right to say) like the Jordis to jail for 9 years.
Catalans feel hated and unappreciated, the behaviour of the Spanish state (and many Spaniards) have justified all their paranoia, no idea how this can be repaired.
As a basque myself, I do think that both Catalan and Basque nationalisms and will of independence have a strong component of feeling superior to the rest. We have industry, the best education, we are hard-workers, noble, trustworthy....in comparison to those in the south who are illiterate, work on the fields or on tourism and are partying all day long (please don´t take this seriously). This is something no basque or catalan will admit publicly, but that may slip within his/her inner circles.
All the PP had to do was say, "have your stupid referendum, we won't recognise it.", it would probably have resulted in a "no" vote according to polls. Clips of Madrileños singing "a por ellos" as police left to beat up pensioners opened a can of worms (to say the least).
You don't have to be a separatist to have heard countless "Catalans are this, Catalans are that" statements
Says the guy who feels victimised for being a Catalan and goes ahead and puts an entire Spanish region in the same can. 🤣
Even worse. I'm a Madrileño and that was an insulting post.
OP
OP
i think who should decide the independence are the catalans (without the rest of spain), but spain will never accept that, as spain didnt accepted the independence of its colonies in the past... I dont see a pacific independence happening, spain does not seem to give the catalans the opportunity to do that democratically and peacefully, and the international community doesnt seems to care about the catalans independence...
so i think the only way would be by force and i dont see that happening, what's likely to happen is spain to use its force to subjugate and arrest the separatists.
so i think the only way would be by force and i dont see that happening, what's likely to happen is spain to use its force to subjugate and arrest the separatists.
You didn't read what I said:
- foreign investment goes through economy councelry, which proposes in a case by case, and can only vary in the regional irpf (up to 10%, minimum of 3).
- there are many languages in spain, most have their official agency to document and promote, but some (gomeran silbo, occitanian, bable) are by geographical distribution not that extended. Would you teach all of tjose at school? And again, the autonomies have ABSOLUTE power to promote the languages, and the money to do so, ask them whu they don't.
- the nebulous central government, I assume you mean PP government, has several former ministers jailed for corruption. Catalan government liberated oriol pujol after TWO months, despite being condemned (by catalan courts) for tax evasion, corruption and criminal organization,
- the constitution I refered to was refacted by ex-erc senator Vidal, in 2017, not in 1977 with the threat of militar insurrection.
- The condemned were condemned for disobeying the supreme court, constitutional court, catalonian court and parliament of catalonia's lawyers up to 5 times. And for using public money for an illicit act. And for inciting an uprising. Not for demonstration. All of those acts were proudly broadcasted, as their trial was, just to avoid doubts.
If you feel for some reason badly treated, that can be discussedand hopefully solved. But what you said was inaccurate or simply incorrect.
You talk about Spanish Policia Nacional dressed as protestors in order to stir trouble as some sort of paranoia when it's a fact they are there.
Here you have them arresting a girl.
https://twitter.com/Cazatalentos/status/1184953742602452992?s=20
Here exiting the police van.
Now that's Orwellian isn't it.
And that's for the police beating "the most radical protesters". Trully proportionate stuff.
https://twitter.com/Cazatalentos/status/1185297270436175879?s=20
or this other one
Look at this radical guy sitting down! Surely he deserved a bit of a beating https://twitter.com/Gerrrty/status/1185244638367682560
Links could go on an on. Repulsive stuff and repulsive people trivialising it.
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It could happen via constitutional change to allow it. Then, that proposal of change would be voted in the whole country, and should have little problem being passed. But the thing is, egos are so inflamed that only the "total defeat" is a valid result and no one gives a fuck about even trying honestly.
While I wholeheartedly agree with your "I'll obey just the laws I like" idea, it's hard to project an idea of justice and equality when you comply only when you feel like it.
If you are truely interested in the subject, I'd recommend you the book "Identity" by fukuyama.
-Moving headquarters has nothing to do about percentages.
-Yes I think spanish government should promote these languages. Because saying autonomies can control some competences like languages and then don't give them the enought money to maintain them is the same as not having the competences.
-No, I don't want to targed a single party, there's an stablishment that still is drinking from dictatorship mentality that is rulling this country. Catalan parties like Convergencia did algo very wrong, true. When that happened the party had to dissolve. But it's true that is you are closer to Madrid, and you find a notebook that appears the name "M.Rajoy" no judge will know who this people will be.
-Oh I get it now, I went lost in translation, sorry about that. So that constitution that nobody care about and nobody taked as a serious thing, sure.
-Yup, that's exactly what the judges said, but what happened is some people who demostrated peacefully and asked the protesters to go to their homes. If that is to call for an uprising we aren't in the same reality.
At least post what they were doing before that because then you are trying to manipulate. For the video quoted, here you have the complete one:
Peaceful people.
You don't need to be that selfrighteous to consider what is "fair".
Just follow the human rights, I think that's a pretty good manual.
You´re saying that you need more money to promote the use of the language, but a few lines after that you´re completely disregarding the use of public money for something illegal as has been sentenced in the trial and is completely out of all doubt. So what´s with that? I´m pro-referendum (not the same as being pro-independence) but I can´t stand how people allow their politics to do as they please with public money and then forgive everything because "independence".
Stole my post. lol.
Thanks anyways.
These "peaceful people" are the same who have transformed the wonderful city of Barcelona a city I love and where I once lived in an urban warfare.
I'm so sad and disgusted.
lol everything is manipulation to the Spanish eye. So your first reaction seeing these is well, they must have done something deserving of this. That says a lot of the Spanish public opinion.
Gonna just leave a couple more because they just keep coming. Surely deserved well done to our police.
Quoting your own post....
Fuck the violence but also I don't see why they shouldn't have a independence vote
My bad I was trying to edit my original post lol
Also they shouldn't have the independence because they are part of the Spanish state and more than half of the Catalans are against it.
Whoever thinks that all protestants are immaculate beings of light that haven´t done anything wrong is just lying to himself. Same with those who think that the police won´t go overboard in the use of force needlessly a lot of times. There are also fascists who only look to stir up violence, infiltrated (some from the police, some from outside of Spain) adding to the mix. I guess that what I´m trying to say is that if you think that your side is all made of good innocent people and the opposition are all villains then you´re just dumb, to put it lightly. There are rotten apples everywhere and they don´t represent any group.
If that´s so then what´s the problem in having a vote? It would serve to end the discussion, right?
You just said that more than half of the Catalans are against indepedence, then why are you backtracking now?
Yes this guy is an individual citizen and represents himself only, and was already arrested. If we are talking people I could post the Neonazis attacking people yesterday with the police doing nothing or the Spanish nationalists this morning in Badalona throwing stones at independentist demonstrators. But I will not blame Spanish unionists in general for it. So do you really want to start a competition on that because I don't see you winning even on that front.
Now my posts are showing violence by the police, which represents the Spanish state. Let's see what happens to these policemen, most of them with their ID known btw. Spolier alert: As always, nothing.
A Catalan independence referendum only in Cataluña it's illegal. I'm not backtracking anything.
I'm sorry for my ineptitude to understand your sentence, I do defend public money to be used to promote minor languages and I think that organizing a referendum, even one that the spanish government says is ilegal, should be used with public money. Sorry if that is not what you trying to say to me.
And for the links, let's do this,
Police charging to peaceful protesters: https://www.reddit.com/r/catalunya/comments/djtran/la_policia_nacional_càrrega_contra_manifestant/
Amnesty International: https://www.ccma.cat/324/amnistia-i...a-forca-policial-a-catalunya/noticia/2956624/
Tear gas from roofs: https://www.reddit.com/r/catalunya/comments/djtnfd/la_policia_nacional_està_llençant_gasos_des_dels/
Police violence without reason: https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/vi...ltracta-humilia-independentista-via-laietana/
Peaceful proindependence protester hitter by bat: https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/ag...bol-un-manifestant-a-sant-feliu-de-llobregat/
Catalan police being very friendly with far-right movements: https://www.naciodigital.cat/notici...3UaTBs1PIXo2vi-jEiABPIg#.Xai8aa7DonI.facebook
Spanish unionists throwing rocks to peaceful pro-independence protesters: https://www.ccma.cat/tv3/alacarta/n...s-de-la-marxa-per-la-llibertat/video/5940966/
And I have more... This is just a sample of what happened today and yesterday.
I can´t understand why if you say that more than half of Catalans are against independence you won´t let them have a vote on their own. It´s easy to change the law and allow it, just see how easy the constitution was changed to ask for money for the banks. Allowing only the catalans to vote and having that referendum end with a 55% vote against independence would be the best thing to placate the indepedents and have Cataluña remain.
We shouldn't change the law by the pressure of separatists totalitarian movements. It creates a bad precedent for our society.
And that doesn't say to you anything?
Or you are saying the videos and the pictures are fake?
OK, so you´re saying that it´s OK for politics to use public money for something that´s illegal as long as it´s something that you like? Even when they´ve been notified repeteadly that what they´re doing is illegal? Even when there are no records that the majhority of the population may approve of that dispense? Even when that means that that money won´t be available to be used to help the language grow? Do you realize the many contradictions you´re defending only because it suits you?
You´re using those links to make a generalization. Should I use what we´ve all seen tonight (and yesterday, and the night before) to generalize that the protesters are all in fact violent people? I´ve seen them taking the tiles from the floor and throwing them at the police, setting trash dumpsters on fire and many more things. And not 1, 2 or 10 people, there were hundreds of people involved. What I´m trying to say is: don´t be stupid, don´t generalize, it´s easy and dumb to do so.
It says at least they haven't been blocked yet unlike other websites that already had to migrate to .eu and people are having to resort to VPNs to bypass Spanish censorship. Like a little sad China.
Wy not? Laws should be adapted to serve society as society changes, it happens all the time. That´s what the congress is for. If you have a region where close to half it´s population wants to leave we should so something about it, right? What do you propose?
Sites that were inciting to violence and urban organised warfare.