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Pro-independence protesters cut off Barcelona’s major roads
- Thread starter Deleted member 721
- Start date
Have you even thought that spanish media dont want to show you pictures and videos that may make you think diferent?
As catalans this is hard, because when I turn on the TV I have go to the 7 or 8 number to know these kind of things. You know spanish media can also be seen in catalonia, but I think it's a little more hard to see catalan media outside catalonia.
And for the majority of population to approve, the polls indicate that around 80% of the catalan population wanted a referendum.
Do you compare the money required to do a referendum and the money to help a language to not disappear?
It's true that there are violent people that puts on a catalan flag, but there's something called proportionality and that seems our police don't like to use, and that is inside our law. Also please consider the links with peaceful people.
As catalans this is hard, because when I turn on the TV I have go to the 7 or 8 number to know these kind of things. You know spanish media can also be seen in catalonia, but I think it's a little more hard to see catalan media outside catalonia.
Not something that I personally like, something that human rights like.
And for the majority of population to approve, the polls indicate that around 80% of the catalan population wanted a referendum.
Do you compare the money required to do a referendum and the money to help a language to not disappear?
It's true that there are violent people that puts on a catalan flag, but there's something called proportionality and that seems our police don't like to use, and that is inside our law. Also please consider the links with peaceful people.
That´s an article from La Razón with a lot of text and no images whatsoever of the sites or the app. Not buying it.
Do you do. Also I'm not selling anything. Just posting some true.
Maybe this isn't good enough for you either. 🤷♂️
No, that wasn't my first reaction. I watched earlier the complete video and when I went here and watched yours and I corrected you. I'm really tired of the usual lies.
There are lots of not peaceful people there. The other day they were trying to shoot down an helicopter.
And don't get me wrong, the Spanish police have acted badly in the past, like 1-O, but they are not problem here.
Previously, I supported a referendum in Catalonia, but, right now, I don't think is a good idea. The society is completely polarized and it would cause a lot of unrest in the losing side. If the situation settle down in the next years, ok, it could help to solve the problem, but not today.
No, it isn't. That change in the Constitution would require 60% of the seats from both Parliament and Senate, an election to both chambers, 60% of the seats in the new Parliament and Senate and, finally, a referendum to approve the new Constitution.
They are the Kurds of Spain so I'm fully supporting them. Soon the Fries and the Zeeuws in Holland will fight for their independence too.
I'm sure you can show everybody here how TsunamiDemocratic's website is inciting to violence. If you actually go to the site one of the first things you should see is Non violence, if you click you'll see the guidelines of non violence everyone willing to participate has to follow. Maybe you can explain it better or with your great eloquence you are gonna reply again with a laughing emoticon?
I'll translate the guidelines on the website that's been banned for terrorism for our international readers.
(the guidelines) must be accepted by people willing to participate in an action.
- We recognize the value of each individual. We admit the dignity and humanity of oneself and others. We refuse to misstreat our opponent as an enemy.
- We recognize that we all own a part of truth, nobody owns it all. Nobody is totally right and nobody is totally wrong.
- Our actions stress the promotion of communication and democratic procedures. We work for processes that express "power with" and not "power over" other.
- Our means (conducts and acts) are coherent with our ends (affirmation of life, oppose oppression and seek justice, value everybody). We don't justify a "victory" achieved through violence.
- We are willing to endure suffering instead of inflict it. We will not fight violently if we are attacked.
- We commit to prepare for non violent action according to these guidelines.
What you don't want your country to be divided? The Netherlands are backing the Catalans. Like Cruyff said.
The Kurds of Spain, fucking hell, how disrespectful can someone be in this climate?
You forgot the part where they preparing acts of terrorism and conspiring to do the most harm possible in their Telegram groups.
Man I have maaany friends living in Barcelona, Girona, Gavá and Casteldefells. All of them are pro-referendum, most are anti-independence and a couple are pro. You know what they tell me of Catalan media? That the adoctrination of TV3 is sick. They all say that TVE, Antena 3 and the others are all partial as well, but TV3 is in a league of its´ own and has been for years. Just a couple of hours earlier they were saying how in the live feed from TV3 the fires in the centre of Barcelona were never showing, making the incidents look much less severe than they really were. I know that all newspapers and TV channels have a clear editorial line and I filter my information based on that, just as I rejected the article of La Razón a couple of posts above this one. You shoudl do the same and stop thinking that Catalan media is telling the absolute truth and the rest are lying.
Hey men, they TOOK YOUR MONEY. They took it and used it for something that was clear that would be completely useless. But go on, keep on defending them. At this point, you deserve to be robbed.
OP
OP
to have other parties voting in the independence would not bring legitimacy, its like thinking spain should vote in the past if argentina should be independent, or that england should vote in the US independence, that doesnt make sense, the people of the region only should vote. That would be the democratic way.
Wow who's disrespectful are you backing Turkey and Spain and you're not supporting people who want their own countries?
I don't give a fuck about Johan Cruyff or what a bunch of Dutch assholes have to say about my country's internal affairs but thanks anyways.
Uhm if your friends tell you TV3 is adoctrincation maybe they are not very fair with this theme.
And as I said you can watch other TV's, even in catalan, that are far for being labeled as catalanists.
As long as they took my money to do a referendum I'm ok with it. I still think democracy it's the best way to solve problems between humans.
Several reasons:
- Euskadi and Galice would want a referendum for them too. It could be more in a future.
- Nobody can assure you the vote against independence is going to win. Nowadays, votes change drastically in two weeks thanks to manipulation and social networks. Look Brexit, Trump or Bolsonaro.
- Any crisis in the country means petition of a new referendum.
Long live the Catalans and Kurds fighting for indepence you're all alone in this.
Oh, apologies if I wasn't being clear. You're being disrespectful, the Kurds are literally being massacred and ethnically cleansed. These two examples aren't really comparable except to someone with a limited understanding about either situation.
It was done to put the payment of the debt pretty easily, right? Also, we´re on our way to our 4th general elections in 5 years so since when having an election is such a big hurdle? If the will is there it can be done.
Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sanchez didn't take anyone's money and got 9 years each. Anyone can remind me exactly what for? They climbed on vandalized police cars and tried to calm down people?
Well enough for today, just gonna leave some pics of the much professional police with their Nazi friends, for the lols.
I'm sure they are actually beating them but my Catalan media indoctrinated eyes see only a friendly chat. Forgive me.
Don´t think so, Euskadi is playing it´s cards really well lately and the independence feeling is lower than it ever was. Galicia has never had a strong independent block.
Ah, not allowing it for fear of losing means that you´re acknowledging that in fact there is a problem. So something must be done. Closing your eyes to the problem and ignoring it is what´s brought us to where we are.
I don´t think this can be labelled as "any cysis".
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You have cleansed them look at your history with civil wars. You can't deny your history.
Great post. I've been thinking about referendums and their use in the democracy of today. It should be the more democratic way to decide something like this but brexit and trump have shown us that people are easily manipulated by lies and social media.
Hey I agree that the sentence is too much, that´s not what we´re discussing. What I´m saying is that pro-independents are hand-waving the fact that part of the sentence is that the public charges used public money for ilicit means. And I haven´t seen anyone from the pro-independent side say that that was wrong. That´s very baffling, when earlier that same user was citing lack of funding as one of the reasons for wanting to leave Spain.
The pics you post are disgusting, no one can defend that.
Yep, that time the fast route, contemplated in the Constitution, was used, but a change to allow a referendum only in Catalonia can't use that route because the Article 2 shall be changed.
Btw, the fast should be changed to force a referendum. What they did witch Art 135 wasn't democratic and people should have voted.
The problem rather than a new election is that people could vote a party that promise not to support the reform, and, with the situation right now, I see that happening.
Totally agree, but probably it must be something between both sides. Federal state or some kind of new agreement.
Yeah I see that last one as being the bigger problem. Some people (sadly, a A LOT) see this as a us VS them issue and just want the catalans to stay and shut the fuck up, without even considering how they´d feel if they were the ones being told to do so. Everyone needs to understand that there´s a problem in that region and that we must sit down, understand the reaons why people want to leave and make them WANT to stay. But when you have PP, C´s and Vox asking for a straight confrontation it certainly becomes impossible.
Yeah and who is to decide who is manipulated and who is not, or who is more manipulated and who is less. Should be a pointless argument. Well obviously case in point here it's the Spanish side that decides the Catalans are manipulated and therefore their judgement is worthless to the point they can't be listened, but that's a rather... I don't know if it should be called infantile or totalitarian.
I'm from Andalucia, poor compared to the historically rich Cataluña. Believe me I've heard plenty of "Andalusians are this, Andalusians are that".
Have yet to feel hated by my country, let alone starting a supremacist movement to force my region to be independent without even asking the rest of Spain about it.
Why should the rest of Spain consider fair that one of their most historically privileged and cared regions simply decides to leave without asking the rest of the country for their opinion?
Is it democratic to jump over the state you belong to, saying that the rest of the country are inferior scum that are stealing from you?
The law is fair, and it's the same for the entire country. Politics are in place to address these matters. Not unilateral decisions like that that leave the rest of Spain out of the picture.
They knew exactly what they were doing. They broke the law, had a fair, transparent trial and were found guilty. Maybe they should act like politicians next time.
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Exactly, good point. I don't like the comparison between spain and a totalitarian state though. It's fair that catalans want independence, but their relationship and differences to Spain are not on the same level as Hong Kong and China, for example, or previous authoritarian regimes in Europe decades ago. That's unfair to people who've actually suffered under a totalitarian regime.
Do you know anything about the Civil Wars, who fought in them and why? it doesn't seem like you do. I don't really think you know much about the plight of the Kurds either.
i mean people say the same about Andalusia, I've often been expressly told not to reference an office of ours in Málaga because of what the rest of the country says and thinks.
Do you know anything about the Kurds and the Turks?
Sleep well. I'm out.
First of all, your username is awesome.
Second, as a basque I can relate to what he says. Now things are better for us, but when growing up we had to be really careful when leaving the basque country depending on where you went in Spain. People would be openly hostile to you and sometime violent. You would get your car damaged just because people saw the plate and knew you were basque. I don´t think it´s reached those extremes with Catalans yet, but more and more I´m hearing people refferring to them in similar ways to what I heard used for the Basques back then. That´s really hard and really wants you to send everyone to go f*ck themselves and get out.
Yes, I am a massive supporter of an independent Kurdistan and have extensively studied Middle Eastern history and politics at a formal university level. I didn't appreciate the plight being downplayed by your comparison.
Genuinely sleep well too, no hard feelings from me here.
Yeah, I'm frightened with what is happening because Vox may have a huge boost.
You are doing the same thing that accuse us.
Btw, a little off-topic, in an hypothetical case of an independent Catalonia, shall Tarragona and Barcelona held a referendum to reintegrate into Spain?
Neither you of Spain and Catalonia.
I didn't call it a totalitarian state. I was talking about that tiresome 'they don't know better because they are being manipulated' song.
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We are talking about a bunch of parties that are willing to use the regional public TV channel for pure propaganda, they are willing to violate all the laws, including the regional ones (Since they obviously don't respect the rest of Spain, or national laws) to pass a transition law and stage a referendum that only one side campaigned in (Using the public TV for propaganda) and who consider an illegal referendum with 40% turnout as a democratic mandate for independence.
I'd say that shows they reaaallly don't give a fuck about the rights of the Catalans who don't think like them. We go back to the "peoples" thing, they only consider part of the Catalan "people" or "nation" those who favor independence. The rest are Spanish colonists in their view.
Nation, people, ethnicity, the moment mainstream Catalan nationalism claims all the time there is an overwhelming social majority crying for freedom, a people in a quest for freedom, all that jazz, it's immediately clear they only consider real Catalans those who are in favor independence, because surely if you look at actual opinion polls there isn't even a 50% majority.
We are talking about a bunch of parties that are willing to use the regional public TV channel for pure propaganda, they are willing to violate all the laws, including the regional ones (Since they obviously don't respect the rest of Spain, or national laws) to pass a transition law and stage a referendum that only one side campaigned in (Using the public TV for propaganda) and who consider an illegal referendum with 40% turnout as a democratic mandate for independence.
I'd say that shows they reaaallly don't give a fuck about the rights of the Catalans who don't think like them. We go back to the "peoples" thing, they only consider part of the Catalan "people" or "nation" those who favor independence. The rest are Spanish colonists in their view.
Organizing a vote isnt illegal (there was another referendum earlier in the decade and there was no legal consequences). Breaking the law by trying to brute force it into reality is what was illegal.
Organizing a vote isnt illegal (there was another referendum earlier in the decade and there was no legal consequences). Breaking the la
The spanish government gives extra money to regions with their own language. I know because my region is one of the ones that is fighting to promote their language into official state and it is one of the main points (as well as preserving our culture).
Also, Convergencia didnt really dissolve ffs. You still have them in JxSi, they just changed their name but they are the same fucking party.
The thing is, moving headquarters wasn't done to pay less, was to avoid the situation of catalonia being independent and out of EU, meaning no euro, no coverage in case of default, etc. An independent catalonia would be out of EU for a while even if Spain doesn't veto it, so that'd be an important issue.
Again, regions collect the money and keep around 80% of all taxes, meaning its their budgetary decision what do they spend it in. And Puigdemont's soujourn and entourage ain't cheap.
Convergencia dissolved in name only, same people who were named are still in pdcat.
That document that nobody cares about is what is called a documental evidence of concerted, long and OFFICIALLY sponsored effort to eliminate the rule of law (that's the name, not my fancy choice).
Calling people to wait and impede a police inquiry, by means of intimidation and coertion, intended to interrupt an investigation (which by the way, was meant to see if the referendum was paid by the regional government), that is indeed an insurrection, literally. That they said it was peaceful and it was almost unanimously peaceful doesn't change the intent. If me and my 35 closer colleagues surround you, very very closely, and politely demand you your phone, how would you call it?
Btw, rajoy offered to let the referendum itself happen if it was voted on squares and streets as a public protest (which is legitimate), it was the insistence on using official buildings which triggered the response, since voting anything isn't a criminal act, but disposing of government buildings for a "private voting" very much is.
According to that logic; a region were OVER half of the population does not want independence OR a referendum, should get referendums banned, since they are the majority and can exert more pressure.
I was in for a referendum, but I feel in the last 5 years independence is becoming a strawman, and I don't really like the government that would come out.
Speaking of which, if it was independent, what would happen with the pro-spain 55% of the population?
The sooner you people realize this independence movement is not a political party thing the sooner this shit will be resolved. The delusion that by "cutting the head" the movement will dissolve is one of the reasons we are at this shit point.
Also I fully condemn the vandalism of these last days by some violent scum that use any occasion to show how few neurons they have all together. Like, 2.
Also I fully condemn the vandalism of these last days by some violent scum that use any occasion to show how few neurons they have all together. Like, 2.
Is a fair Referendum like Scotland one possible in Spain? If half of Catalonians really oppose independence, why independent parties keep winning elections and holding majority of seats in provincial government even after the crackdown in 2014?
D'hondt law of distribution gives more proportional weight to votes in less populated areas, to avoid said areas having less importance in votings. That way, in more populated areas you need more votes proportionally to get a representative, compared to less inhabited ones. I'll let you guess which votes pro independence and which don't.
A referendum could be upheld in 2 possibilities: by means of a constitutional change, which would be desirable since it'd have to clearly stipulate conditions of validity and victory (I hope we all agree that secession should have a qualified majority on a high upturn); or as a CONSULTIVE and non-binding way. Fun part: in nov 2014 that happened. Even more fun: brexit vote was also non-binding.
Because (*gasp*) Spain is a democratic country and has free elections (not sure what you mean by crackdown in 2014) with an electoral system that tends to benefit major parties in the marginals, so it is possible to get a majority with 46-47% of the vote.
Better post. Also yeah people saying that they are criminalizing voting really dont know that they had a similar vote in 2014 and NOONE was put in prison, because it was consultive and there was no real intension or structure to leave Spain.
LOL.
I laugh because well, it's about 'feelings', not about facts or reasons or rational thought. They want independence because they 'feel' Catalans, no Spanish. What does it mean, in real terms? Fuck if I know. Sometimes I think they just want that in their DNI would say 'Catalán' instead of 'Español', that's it. Nationalism (any) is about silly, petty feelings and sometimes government brain washing.
It's really all big feedback luck that started hundred of years ago, and in the last 20 years has increased, with Catalans radicalizing their own as years passed by.
In reality Cataluña approved democratically the Spanish constitution in 1978 like the rest of communities, with a massive approval. But since then, the community government from has incited slowly but surely nationalistic feelings.
Nationalist independentists have a series of doubtful and cloudy arguments about how things would be much better if they were independent, which... well, it sounds like the milkmaid's tale, a fantasy. They are a part of Spain and have been for the last 500 years. They have the same culture, tradition, way of doing things, techonology level, education level, corruption level (ask Pujol, previous long standing governor!) than the rest of Spain's communities. The only notable difference is the Catalan's language, which is a co-official idiom there.