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Progressive Latino pollster: 98% of Latinos do not identify with “Latinx” label (ThinkNow Research)

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Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,014
People saying things like "the problem is when the American popular culture collectively decides that this is the only and correct way to use the Spanish language".

Who is saying that it's the only and correct way to use Spanish?
Did I miss posts suggesting that Latinx should replace Latino and Latina?

Seems to be a number of people within the culture that use it, but are being told it's dumb because people would prefer them to use Latine. Then another section of people who are arguing against it on the basis that it takes something away from them?
 

Drksage

Member
Oct 30, 2017
642
The irony of using a word appropriated from black culture (woke) to white wash and frankly shit on another culture is really amusing.


People saying things like "the problem is when the American popular culture collectively decides that this is the only and correct way to use the Spanish language".

Who is saying that it's the only and correct way to use Spanish?
Did I miss posts suggesting that Latinx should replace Latino and Latina?
Eh, that’s how this thread feels to me as a Latino.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,318
Broad linguistic question here. So because the Spanish language has genders, you can't just say, "Latin," you have to say Latino or Latina for a man or a woman. What does Latino/a refer to? A race, a culture, a region? So if you're a black guy from Senegal, does a Spanish person say Negro/Negra or Senegaleso/Senegala, Africana/o? Are there gender-neutral terms for people that aren't Latin-American but who a Latin-American may be speaking about?
Generally speaking, plurals re: groups of people default to the male form, unless it's a specific gendered case where it's assumed (in a sexist way, let's be honest) that the group is all women.

To be clear, there simply isn't a gender neutral way to refer to groups like that. "Latinos" is a male-gendered word that refers to a culture. To default to its male form as "neutral' is to accept a sort of male-centric world view, which is exactly what has happened.
 
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Yams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,059
People saying things like "the problem is when the American popular culture collectively decides that this is the only and correct way to use the Spanish language".

Who is saying that it's the only and correct way to use Spanish?
Did I miss posts suggesting that Latinx should replace Latino and Latina?
It hasn't happened in this thread before but it has happened here and it has happen on twitter
 

Lant_War

The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
10,722
Now that I think about it, how do spanish speakers refer to non-binary people? For example boy and girl would be el chico, la chica or professor would be el profesor, la profesora. How would you refer to them in spanish if the person is non-binary?
This is precisely one of the reasons why people are trying to come up with gender-neutral pronouns.

Technically the male pronouns are the gender neutral ones, which most likely doesn't help non-binary people at all.
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
583
The poster bringing up the phrase "self-hating Latinos" sure ain't transphobic no

/s
And should be reported as such, but tell me this... Why are AMERICANS deciding what NATIVE latine population calls itself? If you ask a latin person, they're never going to identify as latinx, they'll identify as latine.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,626
And should be reported as such, but tell me this... Why are AMERICANS deciding what NATIVE latine population calls itself? If you ask a latin american person, they're never going to identify as latinx, they'll identify as latine.
There are multiple Latin Americans in this thread who say they identify as Latinx. What do you say to them?
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,014
It hasn't happened in this thread before but it has happened here and it has happen on twitter
I can appreciate that would get backs up, thanks for clarifying that it occurs. People should use what they find comfortable for themselves, especially without facing ridicule over it and it being called dumb.

Non-binary people trying to navigate gendered languages is definitely coming to the fore as non-binary becomes more socially palatable. Within translation topics gaming side it's a frequent discussion as well, and can only imagine it'll persist as non-binary experiences are more and more introduced into media, like books and film. Language changes and will carve a way over time, but it's not going to be a neat fit from the jump and will require some experimentation.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,412
I understand what you're saying here, but I have to use this a launching point to ask: How many people do you think actually get offended if you use the wrong term for them? I always worry that cishet people tend to THINK everyone's going to get offended if they misgender or use the wrong term for them. This is all anecdotal, but I've seen cis people get more offended by being misgendered (saying 'miss' to a male/'sir' to a female by accident) than the trans/nb people I know. Most of the time they tend to either say nothing and internalize very negative feelings about it, or calmly explain the situation and hope to educate.
The problem with asking how many people get offended by it comes down to, does it matter how many? I completely understand that to some it can come across as unecessary hand wringing but the reality is that even something relatively minor can become additive in hurting someone.

That's where I feel it matters. Possibility of hurting someone. And while there's certainly logic to recognizing that one can't ever completely avoid accidentally hurting others in some way, I don't think that's reason enough not to at least try not to hurt others.
 

Cap'n Cook

Member
Oct 25, 2017
152
My problem with it is that it's unnecessarily changing a Spanish word. When speaking English, why not just say Latin? Should we change hispano/a to hispanx, mexicano/a to Mexicanx, colombiano/a to Colombianx.......? All these have their English translations so why not just use those?
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
583
There are multiple Latin Americans in this thread who say they identify as Latinx. What do you say to them?
I would ask them if they knew Spanish since the arrangement of letters doesn't exist in the spanish language, whereas latine exists and has an acceptable native pronounciation. It's fine if people identify as Latinx, but right off the bat it gives them away as american and not from other south american countries.
 

Coffee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
303
Malmö
I'd rather use latine if I were trying to be gender neutral, sounds a lot better than latinx (which really only "works" in English)
 

sqwarlock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,220
Irvine, CA
The problem with asking how many people get offended by it comes down to, does it matter how many? I completely understand that to some it can come across as unecessary hand wringing but the reality is that even something relatively minor can become additive in hurting someone.

That's where I feel it matters. Possibility of hurting someone. And while there's certainly logic to recognizing that one can't ever completely avoid accidentally hurting others in some way, I don't think that's reason enough not to at least try not to hurt others.
I'm realizing my post was worded super poorly, and I apologize. I wasn't implying that lack of offense should mean lack of caring about terms, but that people shouldn't hesitate to use inclusive terms because they're worried someone may get offended and yell at them if they use the wrong term. I was hoping to come off as encouraging inclusivity and chastising anyone that thinks they shouldn't be progressive because "there's so many terms and omg what if I use the wrong one?"
 

asagami_

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,385
Mexico
Is there a reason people don't use something like [email protected]? Slightly easier to digest than x?
I think [email protected] is gendered, and to me when I read it I automatically translate to latino y latina, meanwhile latinx/latine is non-genered. I prefer more latine than latinx, but I'm not going to try imply people who use them are wrong. Talking about what my experiences as Mexican living in Mexico.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,412
I'm realizing my post was worded super poorly, and I apologize. I wasn't implying that lack of offense should mean lack of caring about terms, but that people shouldn't hesitate to use inclusive terms because they're worried someone may get offended and yell at them if they use the wrong term. I was hoping to come off as encouraging inclusivity and chastising anyone that thinks they shouldn't be progressive because "there's so many terms and omg what if I use the wrong one?"
Ah I see. Thank you for clarifying and I apologize for my part in the misunderstanding.

I agree with what you're saying but I still lament the situation because it feels like a band aid. Something being better than nothing and all that but it still feels crappy.
 
Nov 2, 2017
698
Quebec City
I'd rather use latine if I were trying to be gender neutral, sounds a lot better than latinx (which really only "works" in English)
When it comes to expressions like this, you cannot hope that such expressions will transcend to all languages. Even if it only works in English it shouldn't disqualify it from being used in english. Just your example here is a good one, Latine in French is the literal feminine (female? not sure of the term to use here) version of Latin.

There could be looots of problems if you want to make all languages fit.
 

kikiribu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
Latinx is the dumbest word I’ve ever seen. As a Latino, I will NEVER use that shit.

Stick to Latin, nobody asked for it. Hopefully certain people on this site stop saying it because you don’t look informed at all.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
454
Spoilers: Vast majority of basically anyone speaking any language isn't going to use gender neutral language... almost like that's part of the whole issue that non binary people face.
I agree with that, but I don't agree that grammatical gender should fall in the same category of problematic language use. There are ways to be gender-inclusive in Spanish and other languages with grammatical gender that don't involve butchering the language's grammar. I don't expect anybody who is not a native Spanish speaker to understand, but it no less unreasonable than ask English people speak like this.

Even Spanish speakers who use terms like latinx fall short of phasing out ALL use of grammatical gender in spoken language. Because again, it sounds extremely janky, unnatural, and grating to the ears of native Spanish speakers, for whom language is an incredibly important part of our shared cultural identity.

The fact that we took the language of our colonizers, gave it our own twist and made it our own is a big recurring theme in Latin American culture, poetry, literature, etc.

Also, the fact that Americans are extremely ignorant of their history of imperialism and supporting dictatorships in Latin America doesn't help with the perception that this is just another form of cultural imperialism. I saw the way some of you right here on Era laughed and scoffed when Andrew Yang pointed out that the US has interfered in other countries' elections before. That's the kind of dismissiveness that earns Americans this scorn we're seeing.
 

MCee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
244
Bay Area
Broad linguistic question here. So because the Spanish language has genders, you can't just say, "Latin," you have to say Latino or Latina for a man or a woman.
Not in Spanish, no. I was born America so I prefer to use Latin though.

What does Latino/a refer to? A race, a culture, a region? So if you're a black guy from Senegal, does a Spanish person say Negro/Negra or Senegaleso/Senegala, Africana/o? Are there gender-neutral terms for people that aren't Latin-American but who a Latin-American may be speaking about
It refers to your heritage. It's an umbrella. You can be black, white, asian, native or any combination of races like myself but have your family roots in South America/The Carribean. More often that not though, people will be referred to by their country. Americano, Cubana, Puertoriqueno, etcetera.

Regardless of country or race, the term will be gendered as that is just the language. I won't get into terms for color. Too many layers, haha.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,313
I’ve always thought it was a condescending word.

It’s basically a way for English speakers to make easier/comfortable for them than to use the Latino/Latina words.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,595
Me, personally, yeah, I don't want to be called something that sounds ugly to my ears nor something that would make people think I was being stupid by calling myself that.
Imagine being this close and still not seeing it.

It's fine if people identify as Latinx, but right off the bat it gives them away as american and not from other south american countries.
What difference does that make?
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,426
Canada
I feel terrible for anyone who might read this thread who identifies as Latinx...

Non-binary words are important to a lot of people and are thankfully.becoming more common in languages where they don't exist, English has Mx/Mxs and Xe/Xr, why can't other languages do the same? Things change, I'm sure everyone here has learned a new word in their life, what makes this any different?
 

Switch Back 9

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,728
My sister's fiance is Venezuelan, one of best friends growing up is Colombian, and a friend from college is Argentinean. We are in Canada, and all three generally use the term "Spanish" or "Hispanic", the latter will occasionally use "Latina".

I don't know a ton of South American people but I've never heard the term Latinx from the three that I know.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,293
Also, the fact that Americans are extremely ignorant of their history of imperialism and supporting dictatorships in Latin America doesn't help with the perception that this is just another form of cultural imperialism. I saw the way some of you right here on Era laughed and scoffed when Andrew Yang pointed out that the US has interfered in other countries' elections before. That's the kind of dismissiveness that earns Americans this scorn we're seeing.
Fundamentally gender non binary Latinix people trying to find their shit aren't your colonizers or your imperalizers.

Like to go from a group of Latinix people coming up with a word to explore gender non binary to you laughed at Andrew Yang for saying the US interfered with elections? Huh?
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,646
Monolingual English speakers telling often bilingual Spanish speakers what to do. What else is new?

Besides, bringing in gender is kinda simplistic cuz it's not really gendered words. Best explication I've seen?

"These are the starting points of the present study: First, the set of examples in (1)
is so impoverished as to support no general conclusion. The -a and -o in (1) belong to
a class of seven or more morphologically analogous elements that participate in no fewer
than twenty-four different relationships with gender. I will call these elements word
markers.2 Second, (2) errs in conflating biological sex (male versus female), grammatical
gender (masculine versus feminine), and form class (-o versus -a). I will argue that these
are interrelated but autonomous domains of linguistic generalization, each one of which
demands independent formal representation. Sex is a matter of semantics and/or biology,
gender is involved in syntax-dependent concord, and form class is a matter of the mor-
phophonology of individual lexical items. Insight into the true nature and interaction of
these modules depends on understanding the internal organization of each; this cannot
be gained without recognizing the autonomy of each module with respect to the others."

(...)

"Tradition has it that the -o of such nouns as maestr-o '(male) teacher', tor-o 'bull',
disc-o 'disk', and the -a of such nouns as maestr-a '(female) teacher', vac-a 'cow',
cint-a 'tape' are gender-marking suffixes. Tradition is wrong: the -o and -a in question
belong to a set of exponents of declensional class. They are markers of pure form;
members of a particular form class uniquely share no attribute other than membership
in that class. The class-marking suffixes have no meaning or function; they obey no
higher semantic or syntactic authority. They are simply pieces of form that must be at
the right place at the right time, by their own rules. They may perform an incidental
phonological service by permitting syllabification of otherwise impermissible clusters.
For example, nt cannot be tautosyllabic in Spanish, and the -a of cint-a allows the
syllabification cin.ta. But this service can be rendered in other ways. For example, the
stem tint- 'tint' belongs to a declensional class that has no vocalic suffix. In this case
nt is saved by epenthesis: tin.te.
Reduced to its essentials, the argument that the suffixes in question are declension-
class markers rather than gender markers is this: These suffixes share a unique pattern
of distribution. They thus constitute a coherent set of morphemes. The form classes
defined by these morphemes, however, are unrestricted with respect to gender; each
may contain masculine, feminine, and gender-ambiguous nouns, adjectives, and speci-
fiers. Moreover, adverbs-which are strictly genderless-are scattered throughout the
various form classes. These cannot, therefore, be gender classes.
The exponence of gender in Spanish is modular in that it involves four interrelated
but autonomous domains of linguistic generalization: biological/semantic sex, syntactic
gender, morphophonological form classes, and strictly phonological redundancy rela-
tions. We cannot gain insight into the interactions among these modules unless we have
some understanding of the separateness and internal organization of each."


The Exponence of Gender in Spanish
Author(s): James W. Harris
Source: Linguistic Inquiry, Vol. 22, No. 1 (Winter, 1991), pp. 27-62
 

Chris Contra

Member
Nov 15, 2017
226
Latinx was created by the colonizers because they do not understand syntax not foreign speech.

Latino is already gender neutral by definition.
 
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