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Progressive Latino pollster: 98% of Latinos do not identify with “Latinx” label (ThinkNow Research)

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Lexad

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,088
Gringo here but I grew up in a border city. There isn’t many who would go by that label whatsoever. It’s telling the first time I heard of it was in a podcast starring 3 white dudes (The Adventure Zone)
 

The Archon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,486
The word itself may have been invented by a person of spanish speaking heritage, but most of the people that vehemently defend it dont understand how the spanish language works. Or are willing to bend the rules of the language far more than the average speaker. The reason it’s being rejected so much by native speakers it’s because it doesnt fit the language.

A lot of the people are getting annoyed when the lack of support or dislike of the word gets linked to bigotry, especially when some have presented alternatives to the word such as Latin or Latine but mostly english speakers insist they are wrong or that Latinx is more inclusive.

I live in Puerto Rico and no one says Latinx in daily conversations. Because it’s incompatible to us. In fact if you were to try to duplicate the rule of x replacing a/o to indicate gender neutralness in a word, the words would become unpronounceable to the average speaker. Language does evolve, as some posters have suggested in the thread, but to the majority of native spanish speaking people, this particular instance feels forced by people who dont use spanish on a daily basis.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
There were a handful of people who said they identity as Latinx in this thread. I don't know if they do because they are enby because I'm not going to demand they justify themselves for me.

You can go back and read the thread if you want to know who they are.
Yeah, just read back and saw someone who did in fact self-identify as non-binary and Latinx; one counter-example is enough, so I'll retract what I said.

Thanks
 

Rosé Fighter

Member
Aug 23, 2019
122
Latinx is nomenclature that was most likely introduced by english-speaking people.

Latinx, as a word meant to refer to Latin people, doesn't work in Spanish, funnily enough. This is another instance of a foreign community deciding how Latin Americans should speak. First the Spaniards when they conquered my ancestors land, deciding we should learn and speak spanish.
 

elzeus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,563
I hate that I wasted my time responding to you when I should have known you would be that dismissive.

Lesson learned.
What? I was responding to Tranq and then summed it up from the wikipedia entry. I'm genuinely appreciative of both of your replies for helping me become slightly more informed on the subject.
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
581
Though it's a borrowed word, isn't Latino as a widespread classification U.S. centric? U.S. decided to refer to everyone in this hemisphere with Spanish or Portuguese speaking roots as "Latino" for the census. Didn't think it was a popular term with non-American Spanish and Portuguese speakers.
Missed this post, you make a good point. You're correct, no one from spanish speaking countries really refer to themselves as "latinos" in general. Instead they obviously call themselves based on their nationality (Mexican, Dominican, Chilean, Peruvian, etc etc). However, it is derived from the word "latinoamericano" so it's still used in many cases but it serves the purpose in america to lump all the browns together as you suggested.

Broadly speaking, language change is an organic, bottom-up process; language changing via top-down imposition of preference is a relatively new attempted phenomenon.
Kinda off-topic of me here. I'm assuming you're talking about gendered pronouns (which are the issue at hand), because I can't even fathom how to de-genderize top-down for the entire Spanish language.

Like how on earth would you de-genderize: "El carro" (The car) and "La silla" (The chair)... as examples.

I get that certain aspects of languages need to change (like gender specific pronouns), but what about the examples above? Is it necessary to change terminology for non-living nouns as well?
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
We both know of several Puerto Rican writers and scholars that use Latinxs and/or use “x” in other gendered articles and pronouns instead of “a/o” or even “@”. Lissette Rolón Collazo, Beatriz Llenin Figueroa and Jaime Géliga Quiñones are among the first ones that come to mind. Moreover, a simple Google search of “lxs” + a Latin American country brings up hundreds of thousands of websites, articles, and blogs written by Latin Americans living in their countries of origin that are using this gender-inclusive article in Central and South American as well as the Caribbean. Another google search of “lxs” + psicología produces almost 60,000 results that include the works of scholars and references to teaching materials —such as those by Yuderkys Espinosa Miñoso (Dominican-born, residing in Argentina) and Adriana Gallegos Dextre (Pontificia Universidad Católica del Perú)— in addition to newspaper articles, blogs, descriptions of groups, all using the gender inclusive article “lxs.” Thus, while it is not by any means mainstream, the use of the gender-inclusive “x” within Latin America is far from “nonexistent.”
 

Jehuty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
48
I’ve heard people use Latinx before and it just sounds so weird to me. It’s not a thing in most Latin American countries and it sounds wrong/corny saying it in Spanish. I told my Dominican parents about Latinx and they laughed for a bit and then went back to watching primer impacto. Spanish is a heavily gendered language, that won’t be changing anytime soon.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
Missed this post, you make a good point. You're correct, no one from spanish speaking countries really refer to themselves as "latinos" in general. Instead they obviously call themselves based on their nationality (Mexican, Dominican, Chilean, Peruvian, etc etc). However, it is derived from the word "latinoamericano" so it's still used in many cases but it serves the purpose in america to lump all the browns together as you suggested.



Kinda off-topic of me here. I'm assuming you're talking about gendered pronouns (which are the issue at hand), because I can't even fathom how to de-genderize top-down for the entire Spanish language.

Like how on earth would you de-genderize: "El carro" (The car) and "La silla" (The chair)... as examples.

I get that certain aspects of languages need to change (like gender specific pronouns), but what about the examples above? Is it necessary to change terminology for non-living nouns as well?
Well, you don't have to go through the trouble if you simply accept that grammatical gender is a purely grammatical quirk of the language. Nobody thinks of cars as male, or chairs as female. I don't get why this is so difficult for English speakers to understand. If you say "la persona", nobody will know if you're referring to male, female, or non-binary, EVEN THOUGH THE ARTICLE "LA" IS FEMALE. Likewise, if you say "latino"...
 

MCee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
243
Bay Area
So the natural follow-up is that in Spanish speech, Americanx has to be a thing too, right?
I don't know about natural but theoretically you'd have to apply the same thing when referring to groups of non latin folks in Spanish.

When referring to yourself, there's usually a/o, when a broad group it's usually o, in conversation or groups, you'll hear tu, usted, yo, mi, su, and etcetera. Plus kids with stuff like nino, nina or terms of endearment like ito/ita.

English is definitely easier to navigate with gender neutral terms as Spanish is rooted in gendered language.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
What? I was responding to Tranq and then summed it up from the wikipedia entry. I'm genuinely appreciative of both of your replies for helping me become slightly more informed on the subject.
I apologise that I misread your comment. I thought you were being dismissive of the term because it started in American colleges. Some in this thread have used that as shorthand to mean that it doesn't exists anywhere else or that it was created by white people.

Hopefully my last post will inspire more nuanced discussion than "nobody in Spanish speaking countries ever uses Latinx."
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,374
Well, you don't have to go through the trouble if you simply accept that grammatical gender is a purely grammatical quirk of the language. Nobody thinks of cars as male, or chairs as female. I don't get why this is so difficult for English speakers to understand. If you say "la persona", nobody will know if you're referring to male, female, or non-binary, EVEN THOUGH THE ARTICLE "LA" IS FEMALE. Likewise, if you say "latino"...
Before I learned English, I remember thinking it was a little unfair that many group terms (particularly the ones used to refer to me at that age so niños, hijos, nietos, primos, etc.) defaulted to the male endings. Not surprising that many men don't consider it a big deal or think about it too much, but I definitely did as a child. Although I was a weird kid in general. :P
 

Tranq

Member
Oct 21, 2018
188
Yes, organically. That's not what's happening here--as evidenced by all the Latin Americans who have posted that they've never heard the term before.

Spanish already has ways to be gender-inclusive that are infinitely more palatable to the Latin American ear than "latinx". Why are you not listening to what we're saying and instead keep trying to speak on behalf of non-binary Latin Americans, not a single one of which has self-identified with the term "Latinx" 17 pages into this thread?
Ok, first of all I'm not "speaking for nb folk." The word was made to be lgbt friendly. NB people haved used and do use it as such. I don't need to scrub through 17 pages of a likely majority cis thread to verify your claim for that to be true.

It was an organic development in American universities. A place not everyone has access to, which would of course limit it's spread since it's mainly used in academia. It's a term like mysogynoir or intersectionalism, words that don't come up in everyday converation but tend to appear in discussions about social justice. As for "there are already other words/ways with the same meaning," that's never stopped synonyms from being made. Clearly latinx comes from a speciifc background, so I can see how it can be criticized because of that. It's defintely more of a written word than a spoken one. What I don't like is people saying it has no value when it clearly does in a way most people in this thread will never have to worry about.

I'm only speaking for myself when I say 1) I don't see the harm this word is allegedly causing and 2) it sucks that a word specifically meant to include nb people has so much hatred. Feel free to hate me for that, I guess.
 

adam prime

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,321
ATX
Im Mexican. It's whatever , I don't care. If people want to use Latinx or Latino or Latina, whatever makes them happy. It's important to someone else, I respect that.
 

R2RD

Member
Nov 6, 2018
86
It’s sad because there’s so many in the closet. I’m happy my generation(Dominican Americans I should say) are way more open about it. Ever since my cousin came out so many years ago I have met sooooooooooo many.
Younger generations are more open in the DR. There was a video around San Valentine's day were a men showed up in a School with a Gift for his boyfriend and you could see the kids cheering when they kissed. That of course is not representative of the entire population but is nice to see.
Before I learned English, I remember thinking it was a little unfair that many group terms (particularly the ones used to refer to me at that age so niños, hijos, nietos, primos, etc.) defaulted to the male endings. Not surprising that many men don't consider it a big deal or think about it too much, but I definitely did as a child. Although I was a weird kid in general. :P
That is weird at all. I remember in my school people joke a lot because most words in plural have male endings in Spanish. Most girls thought it was unfair and I'm pretty sure you can find a lot of people that think the same now.
 

DarthOrange

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,698
Southern California, Mexico
I use Latinx. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Although I will also use Chicano to describe myself, because I think Chicanx sounds dumb. I've had the debate in person plenty of times and no one really cares that much at the end of the day after some light poking.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
Ok, first of all I'm not "speaking for nb folk." The word was made to be lgbt friendly. NB people haved used and do use it as such. I don't need to scrub through 17 pages of a likely majority cis thread to verify your claim for that to be true.

It was an organic development in American universities. A place not everyone has access to, which would of course limit it's spread since it's mainly used in academia. It's a term like mysogynoir or intersectionalism, words that don't come up in everyday converation but tend to appear in discussions about social justice. As for "there are already other words/ways with the same meaning," that's never stopped synonyms from being made. Clearly latinx comes from a speciifc background, so I can see how it can be criticized because of that. It's defintely more of a written word than a spoken one. What I don't like is people saying it has no value when it clearly does in a way most people in this thread will never have to worry about.

I'm only speaking for myself when I say 1) I don't see the harm this word is allegedly causing and 2) it sucks that a word specifically meant to include nb people has so much hatred. Feel free to hate me for that, I guess.
Makes no difference where it originated; it is being amplified and popularized by American media, to the point where a term that sounds foreign to us and that we don't identify with is becoming the default, go-to label for our people. And if you'll recall, the poll in the OP was about whether marketing departments should refrain from using the term to refer to all Latin Americans.

So as much as anyone would like to make it about bigotry or trans-erasure, the fact of the matter is that the push-back stems from Latin Americans *naturally* being upset that a label very few of us use, is being applied to all of us in favor of what we usually call ourselves.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
Is it okay for American marketing departments, journalists, and politicians to unilaterally refer to all of us by a term that 98% don't identify with? Remember, that's the reason this poll was conducted in the first place. I and any reasonable person would be fine if they used something like latino/latina/latinx, but to instead use latinx as a catch-all label when so few of us identify with it, or have even heard it before... Is that okay?
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
581
Hopefully my last post will inspire more nuanced discussion than "nobody in Spanish speaking countries ever uses Latinx."
I was genuinely curious to see how they were using the word Latinx and I didn’t find that. I feel like you posted that article to prove Spanish speaking countries use “Latinx”, but you misread the article. Re-read the first sentence of the quote of the article you posted. It says “ scholars that use Latinxs and/or use “x” in other gendered articles and pronouns instead of “a/o” or even “@ ”“. This is extremely misleading, they make it sound like the authors are using latinx when that’s not the case. Instead, that they use latinx OR other non-gendered terms... which is true lxs/[email protected] in their articles.

They use lxs or [email protected] (something not mentioned in the article is the word “les” is also used) as pronouns instead of the traditional gendered “Los/Las”. Not that they specifically use the word “latinx”, because I haven’t seen it.... thus far on google.

Think I’m talking out of my ass? Hop on a non-US Google with that region’s results. Tell me how many results you get that aren’t Telemundo, Univision, BBC, and other American/English based companies. I looked for the authors listed and none of them used the word latinx in the few articles I found, but they did include a lot of friendly non-gender pronouns that your article mentions.

I’ll say this so we’re not getting things twisted.

It’s fine that american Latinx (or any non-American) that wants to identify themselves as Latinx. How about we let the native Spanish speaking NBs pick their own term... Can we agree on that?
 
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jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,061
As a Chilean my experience is that most people asking for non-gendered words use "Latine" (I haven't actualy read anyone use that since people in Chile don't usually refer themselves as latino though, but still). As many have said, the "x" is just unnatural to speak as a vowel so it makes more sense to replace with another vowel that isn't linked to a gender.
 

golguin

Member
Oct 29, 2017
762
Latinx feels the same as POC. The first place I saw the term POC was here and I feel the same about it as I do about Latinx. Those are words meant to homogenize groups of people for the convenience of others that can't be bothered to know the difference.

People from Latin America and other counties around the region are very particular of the words used to describe themselves and will often correct you when you use a word that they don't identify with. In my own culture (My parents are Mexican, but I was born in the US) there is a variety of terms and labels that people feel comfortable using. Those same terms and labels are not acceptable to others for a variety of reasons that I wont get into here. It's clear from reading the posts in this thread that many of you are not part of our culture, but are very vocal about the words we should or should not use to identify ourselves.

People can use whatever terms and labels they like to identify themselves in the culture, but don't tell us what we can or cannot use. Don't tell us what we should or should not use. Look at history and you'll see we've already had enough of that.
 

Zuly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
399
Puerto Rico
I am not opposed to a gender-neutral term for [email protected] people, my issue is that if I try to say it in my native accent, it feels foreign. If I said it to another Puerto Rican here, they'd look at me weird because I'm speaking an "English sounding word" to them and not something local sounding.
 

Drksage

Member
Oct 30, 2017
642
I am not opposed to a gender-neutral term for [email protected] people, my issue is that if I try to say it in my native accent, it feels foreign. If I said it to another Puerto Rican here, they'd look at me weird because I'm speaking an "English sounding word" to them and not something local sounding.
If a stranger dropped it in a conversation, yea I would totally look them weird. If a friend of mine came to me and in a convo dropped the “latinx”, I would immediately reply “Te crees cool cabron?”
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,009
Is it okay for American marketing departments, journalists, and politicians to unilaterally refer to all of us by a term that 98% don't identify with? Remember, that's the reason this poll was conducted in the first place. I and any reasonable person would be fine if they used something like latino/latina/latinx, but to instead use latinx as a catch-all label when so few of us identify with it, or have even heard it before... Is that okay?
Sure, but that's not what the poll is actually polling for nor what people are generally arguing in favour of in the thread. You keep asking for posts in the thread of people that self-identity as latinx in some bizarre "yeh but do they really tho" piece while barely anyone (anyone?) is in here saying anything in support of forcing everyone to use latinx or referring to them by it. The same has been said for most of the thread.

The poll itself, regardless of what prompted it, just asked individuals how they would best describe their own ethnicity.



2% of people selected Latinx. Which isn't really mind-blowing if you consider that the non-binary population -- the people most likely to identify with it -- is likely an equally small number.

If you asked people in the UK who used they/them over he/his and she/her and you would find an equally small result.

Which isn't the fault of the people like yourself that are taking it from the perspective of "would you want to be called latinx" rather than "what, of everything, would you refer to your ethnicity as" as that's how the article has poorly reframed the data to push that narrative. When all the data shows is that 2% of the population polled use latinx and that shouldn't be surprising.

People like Warren are misplaced in their use of it to cover everyone, despite the intent not being to enforce something upon others it evidently has a negative impact when used to refer to the wider Latin American population. Which is more than valid, and again something I've not seen [m]any in here argue in favour of (the suggestion, not Warren).

The issue is with the framing of the piece and the pretty benign data to push the notion that it's about something being taken from someone else, instead of using a term that's inclusive in places to acknowledge that a % of the population do identify that way. Because as we've seen it prompts a pretty poor reaction that overextends in the other direction and has people mocking the notion of anyone using the term themselves as white, dumb or worse.
 
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muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,410
a sunken pirate ship
I'll tag Kyuuji, since they mentioned wanting to know, but I asked my wife (who is, for the record, cis binary) about this at dinner.

She rather strongly dislikes "hispanic" because of its broadness, for the same way that some people are criticizing the use of latinx here -- it just means anyone who speaks Spanish, which could in theory include people from Spain, i.e., the colonizers, and just flattens everyone south of the US border into a single group based on a small piece of shared culture, and a lot of which is not even that strongly shared sometimes. Asked what she preferred she said "of Mexican origin". She also mentioned actually being a bit frustrated about the way that hispanic ethnicity is done on the US census, and that in the visa advisement group (for emigrants to the US seeking fiancee visas) she's in, people who would count as hispanic aren't sure what they should put down for their choice of race -- white doesn't seem correct, nor does american indian / native american, and any other single-race choices are even worse.

She was a bit more against the notion of being labelled at all, and implied she found the categorization a bit dehumanizing -- given that right now, here in the US, such racial/ethnic categorization is being used as a pretext for detention without trial and multiple forms of abuse, I don't entirely blame her; it's hard to separate genuine curiosity about American ethnic makeup right now from categorization meant to serve fascist purposes, and the people doing it don't care at all about citizenship of those they're taking captive.
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
581
Sure, but that's not what the poll is actually polling for nor what people are generally arguing in favour of in the thread. You keep asking for posts in the thread of people that self-identity as latinx in some bizarre "yeh but do they really tho" piece while barely anyone (anyone?) is in here saying anything in support of forcing everyone to use latinx or referring to them by it. The same has been said for most of the thread.

The poll itself, regardless of what prompted it, just asked individuals how they would best describe their own ethnicity.



2% of people selected Latinx. Which isn't really mind-blowing if you consider that the non-binary population -- the people most likely to identify with it -- is likely an equally small number.

If you asked people in the UK who used they/them over he/his and she/her and you would find an equally small result.

Which isn't the fault of the people like yourself that are taking it from the perspective of "would you want to be called latinx" rather than "what, of everything, would you refer to your ethnicity as" as that's how the article has poorly reframed the data to push that narrative. When all the data shows is that 2% of the population polled use latinx and that shouldn't be surprising.

People like Warren are misplaced in their use of it to cover everyone, despite the intent not being to enforce something upon others it evidently has a negative impact when used to refer to the wider Latin American population. Which is more than valid, and again something I've not seen [m]any in here argue in favour of (the suggestion, not Warren).

The issue is with the framing of the piece and the pretty benign data to keep pushing the notion that it's about something being taken from someone else, instead of using a term that's inclusive in places to acknowledge that a % of the population do identify that way. Because as we've seen it prompts a pretty poor reaction that overextends in the other direction and has people mocking the notion of anyone using the term themselves as white, dumb or worse.
The issue here is that this article/thread had nothing to do with NBs other than the author of the article (and his entire marketing team) using/describing “Latinx” incorrectly.

Regardless of what the poll asked, the article is framed as: “What do the browns prefer to call themselves these days?”

This isn’t some anti-nb movement, the article itself is misinformed so you can’t blame people’s reaction to it... The article itself is saying that LatinX is a new label for “Latinos”, when we all know that’s not true. Those who are informed know it’s a label mainly used by Latin NB (in America).

Read some of these misinformed quotes:

Over the past few months and years, several of our clients have noticed the term “Latinx” trending as a new ethnic label to describe Latinos. It has been used by academics, activists, and major companies, including NBC and Marvel, as well as politicians like Senator Elizabeth Warren. We were curious about the appeal of “Latinx” among the country’s 52 million people of Latin American ancestry and decided to test its popularity.”

“We presented our respondents with seven of the most common terms used to describe Latinos and asked them to select the one that best describes them. When it came to “Latinx,” there was near unanimity. Despite its usage by academics and cultural influencers, 98% of Latinos prefer other terms to describe their ethnicity. Only 2% of our respondents said the label accurately describes them, making it the least popular ethnic label among Latinos.”
They’re the ones framing Latinx as an alternative to labeling people Latino/Latina NOT as an addition.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
I was genuinely curious to see how they were using the word Latinx and I didn’t find that. I feel like you posted that article to prove Spanish speaking countries use “Latinx”, but you misread the article. Re-read the first sentence of the quote of the article you posted. It says “ scholars that use Latinxs and/or use “x” in other gendered articles and pronouns instead of “a/o” or even “@ ”“. This is extremely misleading, they make it sound like the authors are using latinx when that’s not the case. Instead, that they use latinx OR other non-gendered terms... which is true lxs/[email protected] in their articles.

They use lxs or [email protected] (something not mentioned in the article is the word “les” is also used) as pronouns instead of the traditional gendered “Los/Las”. Not that they specifically use the word “latinx”, because I haven’t seen it.... thus far on google.

Think I’m talking out of my ass? Hop on a non-US Google with that region’s results. Tell me how many results you get that aren’t Telemundo, Univision, BBC, and other American/English based companies. I looked for the authors listed and none of them used the word latinx in the few articles I found, but they did include a lot of friendly non-gender pronouns that your article mentions.

I’ll say this so we’re not getting things twisted.

It’s fine that american Latinx (or any non-American) that wants to identify themselves as Latinx. How about we let the native Spanish speaking NBs pick their own term... Can we agree on that?

I posted that article for a few reasons.

First, it shows that there are people in Spanish speaking countries that do in fact use Latinx in their writings. They list some of those people. Secondly, it was to dispute the whole "x" thing that people are arguing makes no sense in Spanish and thus Latinx is too complicated or whatever to use. There are people in Spanish speaking countries who are using lxs, which comes with the exact same issues, right?

As for your last point. That is literally what this thread is about. 2% of people polled by the people in the OP are choosing Latinx for themselves. We immediately got people who came in and shat on their preferred term for self-identification. As I've mentioned before, that isn't really surprising, people are stubborn and the Latin community has countless issues with the LGBT community anyway. So yes, I completely agree that anyone should use whatever term best suits them, and I will argue with those who feel the need to sling insults at those who choose to use something they feel best describes them.
 

Untzillatx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,012
Basque Country
And what is wrong with using "persona latina" in Spanish and "Latin American (person)" in English?

Both are gender neutral terms that do not assume anyone's gender and do not require to invent any new words.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,830
As a latino, the main reason I hate it is because Latinx tells you absolutely nothing about how the word is supposed to be pronounced. There's a similar movement in Spanish about making nouns and articles non-gendered (lenguaje inclusivo), and it makes more sense there because they choose to replace the "o" and the "a" with "e". That would be much more intuitive to say than Latin ecks.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,153
Southern California
Is this why I sometimes see folx on here instead of folks?

Are we at the point where we tell people to change their languages? Good luck changing all those heavily gendered languages
Who is telling you to change *your* language when someone like me uses "folx"? It's just a personal choice that causes you no harm.

A lot of cisnormative privilege all over this thread, yikes.
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
581
I posted that article for a few reasons.

First, it shows that there are people in Spanish speaking countries that do in fact use Latinx in their writings. They list some of those people. Secondly, it was to dispute the whole "x" thing that people are arguing makes no sense in Spanish and thus Latinx is too complicated or whatever to use. There are people in Spanish speaking countries who are using lxs, which comes with the exact same issues, right?
I looked up a few of those people and didn't find that they do use Latinx in their writings, I told you that in previous post. You're using evidence that's not there just to prove your point, when you didn't even really fact check it (it even has the pronunciation wrong for latinx very first sentence).

Without looking this up, please tell me how to pronounce lxs/[email protected] in Spanish... is it open to interpretation cause that arrangement of letters just doesn't make sense in Spanish?

Here is a post from someone (2016) regarding this topic (I can post the link if you're genuinely curious):
"Si se está propagando, es porque hace falta. O mejor dicho, algo hace falta, y esas son propuestas. Ya aparecerá lo necesario. A no desesperar.

(Por favor, el argumento de que la @ o la X no sirven porque no se pueden pronunciar, parece olvidar que todas las letras escritas son simples símbolos). Hay mucha cosa que se escribe pero no se pronuncia, como las comas, los puntos finales, los signos de interrog/admir, las diéresis y las/los tildes). "

So lxs/[email protected] are actually pronounced as los/las... and some people might debate they are actually pronounced... so maybe it is actually pretty more complex than you're making it out to be?

As for your last point. That is literally what this thread is about. 2% of people polled by the people in the OP are choosing Latinx for themselves. We immediately got people who came in and shat on their preferred term for self-identification.
Except that is not what the OP presented and the original article are about, re-read the original article.

The article is literally market research to figure out what the browns (as a monolith) are calling themselves these days, and seeing where this "new buzzword" stacks up against the favorites Hispanic (1st) & Latino/Latina (2nd).

The article is framed as: "What is the brown people favorite word to call themselves nowadays, we will see where this new buzzword "Latinx" stands in the rankings."

If you don't want to bother to read the article, here is a quote that clearly sums it up in one paragraph:

"Over the past few months and years, several of our clients have noticed the term “Latinx” trending as a new ethnic label to describe Latinos. It has been used by academics, activists, and major companies, including NBC and Marvel, as well as politicians like Senator Elizabeth Warren. We were curious about the appeal of “Latinx” among the country’s 52 million people of Latin American ancestry and decided to test its popularity. "

As I've mentioned before, that isn't really surprising, people are stubborn and the Latin community has countless issues with the LGBT community anyway. So yes, I completely agree that anyone should use whatever term best suits them, and I will argue with those who feel the need to sling insults at those who choose to use something they feel best describes them.
I agree with that, call people out when they're genuinely being asses. But you are wasting your energy attacking those specifically who are replying to the OP/Article because they might actually replying to the OP directly because they're replying to the articles conclusion: Latinx is not the new label Latinos (as a monolith) prefer.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
And what is wrong with using "persona latina" in Spanish and "Latin American (person)" in English?

Both are gender neutral terms that do not assume anyone's gender and do not require to invent any new words.
Nothing is wrong if you want to do that.

Nothing is wrong with having a term that means everything, and that works for non-binary people to use when referring to themselves.

Who is telling you to change *your* language when someone like me uses "folx"? It's just a personal choice that causes you no harm.

A lot of cisnormative privilege all over this thread, yikes.
Someone doing a thing always makes people lose their minds. Someone wanting to show inclusivity to a group that gets left behind at best, and literally hurt at worst is seen as this huge blow against the people who have never had to consider their own privileges.

We have enbies in here saying they like the term and use it for themselves, and 18 pages deep we're still questioning why the word exists. We have people still asking the same questions on page 18 that were asked on page 1, yet we have to assume they are acting in good faith or they get offended.
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,061
It's pretty ironic how OP asked "Chicanx-ERA" what they think, forgetting (or ignoring) that Chicano only refers to people from Mexico and not the entirety of Latin America.
 
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Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
I looked up a few of those people and didn't find that they do use Latinx in their writings, I told you that in previous post. You're using evidence that's not there just to prove your point, when you didn't even really fact check it (it even has the pronunciation wrong for latinx very first sentence).
I doubt you've scoured all of those people's writings. I'm taking the word of people who claim to have read their writings and say they use it. I'm not claiming to be an expert, just pointing to information I've seen online.

Without looking this up, please tell me how to pronounce lxs/[email protected] in Spanish... is it open to interpretation cause that arrangement of letters just doesn't make sense in Spanish?
I would assume they aren't meant to be pronounced. Like Latinx wasn't mean to originally be pronounced but was made to point out the things they wanted to point out.

So lxs/[email protected] are actually pronounced as los/las... and some people might debate they are actually pronounced... so maybe it is actually pretty more complex than you're making it out to be?
When have I said this isn't complex? I'm saying these are terms used. They look strange and may or may not be meant to be pronounced, you know like "latino/as" isn't meant to be pronounced but convey a message. What should be simple is letting people self-identify, which a lot of people have a problem with. They are giddily telling us how they would laugh at people if they said it, or roll their eyes, etc.

Except that is not what the OP presented and the original article are about, re-read the original article.
I suppose it depends on which reading is accurate. You are reading it as them being asked what the whole group should be called, but they say this: We presented our respondents with seven of the most common terms used to describe Latinos and asked them to select the one that best describes them. That, to me, reads more personally. You may be right, I don't know. And as a new term, it doesn't surprise me that the % is low, considering the age range.

 

jcs

Member
Aug 7, 2018
1,919
I identify as Peruvian first. My experience, culture, upbringing, etc. is too different from other latinos for the label to be relevant.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,009
The issue here is that this article/thread had nothing to do with NBs other than the author of the article (and his entire marketing team) using/describing “Latinx” incorrectly.

Regardless of what the poll asked, the article is framed as: “What do the browns prefer to call themselves these days?”

This isn’t some anti-nb movement, the article itself is misinformed so you can’t blame people’s reaction to it... The article itself is saying that LatinX is a new label for “Latinos”, when we all know that’s not true. Those who are informed know it’s a label mainly used by Latin NB (in America).

Read some of these misinformed quotes:

Over the past few months and years, several of our clients have noticed the term “Latinx” trending as a new ethnic label to describe Latinos. It has been used by academics, activists, and major companies, including NBC and Marvel, as well as politicians like Senator Elizabeth Warren. We were curious about the appeal of “Latinx” among the country’s 52 million people of Latin American ancestry and decided to test its popularity.”

“We presented our respondents with seven of the most common terms used to describe Latinos and asked them to select the one that best describes them. When it came to “Latinx,” there was near unanimity. Despite its usage by academics and cultural influencers, 98% of Latinos prefer other terms to describe their ethnicity. Only 2% of our respondents said the label accurately describes them, making it the least popular ethnic label among Latinos.”
They’re the ones framing Latinx as an alternative to labeling people Latino/Latina NOT as an addition.
I did specifically say that I can't blame people for taking it that way and that the tactic was shitty on the part of that company.

And what is wrong with using "persona latina" in Spanish and "Latin American (person)" in English?
Both are gender neutral terms that do not assume anyone's gender and do not require to invent any new words.
Some people prefer to identify with the other. Otherwise I don't think there's a problem if you're speaking to general use.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
I used to think about this a lot: Why did activists go with Latinx when just Latin could've been used instead? I imagine it would be way easier to get people to use that as well. Latinx looks and sounds very awkward linguistically.
Anecdotally, I've read that when protesting, signs that had something like "cuidadanos" on it had the O physically X'd out, so it read like "cuidadanxs."

Like most things around this topic, it is difficult to find the hard evidence, so take that as you will.

Most places say that it was started in American Universities, but nothing about why or how. When you read stuff from activists they seem to replace a lot of Os and As with Xs, not only with Latino, but other words.

I won't use the word for myself, and probably wouldn't write it when referring to a group of people unless asked to. I have the privilege of being a man in this culture though, which makes me a king, at least according to my mom.
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
581
I doubt you've scoured all of those people's writings. I'm taking the word of people who claim to have read their writings and say they use it. I'm not claiming to be an expert, just pointing to information I've seen online.
Everything? No, but I looked enough to make my conclusion that the article means lxs/[email protected] is being used rather than Latinx. I still couldn't find those easy google results that article is talking about, even when I use the keyword "lxs" I still get weird results like for Lexus (car) site. Using keyword "Latinx" all I get are sources from American authors/sites. I was curious to see how those authors are using the word latinx and what their thoughts/feelings are about it, and like I said I found nothing of the sort. I'm not going to keep looking just to prove you wrong, but at some point I will likely stumble across an article organically (probably via FB since this is US focused forum).

I would assume they aren't meant to be pronounced. Like Latinx wasn't mean to originally be pronounced but was made to point out the things they wanted to point out.

When have I said this isn't complex? I'm saying these are terms used. They look strange and may or may not be meant to be pronounced, you know like "latino/as" isn't meant to be pronounced but convey a message.
Your words:
"Secondly, it was to dispute the whole "x" thing that people are arguing makes no sense in Spanish and thus Latinx is too complicated or whatever to use. There are people in Spanish speaking countries who are using lxs, which comes with the exact same issues, right?"

You're using the article as proof of Spanish speaking countries that are already using "lxs" to tell people here that it's not complicated/complex. That's what I'm hearing when you say "Spanish speaking countires who are using lxs, which comes with the exact same issues, right?".

I suppose it depends on which reading is accurate. You are reading it as them being asked what the whole group should be called, but they say this: We presented our respondents with seven of the most common terms used to describe Latinos and asked them to select the one that best describes them. That, to me, reads more personally. You may be right, I don't know. And as a new term, it doesn't surprise me that the % is low, considering the age range.
You're cherry picking one sentence without the context around it.

"We presented our respondents with seven of the most common terms used to describe Latinos and asked them to select the one that best describes them. When it came to “Latinx,” there was near unanimity. Despite its usage by academics and cultural influencers, 98% of Latinos prefer other terms to describe their ethnicity. Only 2% of our respondents said the label accurately describes them, making it the least popular ethnic label among Latinos."

Here some more quotes:

"Some have speculated that “Latinx” resonates with women and Latino youth. We found no evidence of this in our study. While Latinos’ preferences for other labels vary by age, the limited appeal of “Latinx” is consistent across generations and genders. Only 3% of 18–34 year-old respondents in our poll selected the term as their preferred ethnic label. This was roughly the same as the 2% of 35–49 year-olds. No respondents over 50 selected the term."

"Given the very small pool of respondents who indicated a preference for the “Latinx” label, it is difficult to develop a statistically reliable demographic profile of its users. Further research is also needed to ascertain how familiar Latinos are with the term, but in our survey its users tended to be English dominant and US-born. "
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
Everything? No, but I looked enough to make my conclusion that the article means lxs/[email protected] is being used rather than Latinx. I still couldn't find those easy google results that article is talking about, even when I use the keyword "lxs" I still get weird results like for Lexus (car) site. Using keyword "Latinx" all I get are sources from American authors/sites. I was curious to see how those authors are using the word latinx and what their thoughts/feelings are about it, and like I said I found nothing of the sort. I'm not going to keep looking just to prove you wrong, but at some point I will likely stumble across an article organically (probably via FB since this is US focused forum).
Your words:
"Secondly, it was to dispute the whole "x" thing that people are arguing makes no sense in Spanish and thus Latinx is too complicated or whatever to use. There are people in Spanish speaking countries who are using lxs, which comes with the exact same issues, right?"

You're using the article as proof of Spanish speaking countries that are already using "lxs" to tell people here that it's not complicated/complex. That's what I'm hearing when you say "Spanish speaking countires who are using lxs, which comes with the exact same issues, right?".
All I can tell you is that it happens.

Again, not going to scour the internet looking for examples, because I've already said that it isn't super popular, just that it happens.


The situation we find ourselves in is complicated, but the way to use it is not. Using an X that way seems consistent across the authors mentioned before, even though specifically finding "Latinx" seems difficult to track down.

Edited: It looks like the article I found was about Puerto Rico, but I can't verify that it was written by a Puerto Rican.

If this means that this is predominantly used by Spanish speaking people in the United States, so be it. I don't see a huge difference, since we're still talking about Hispanic/Latin people. Some seem to have a problem with that, though.

Edit2:


Here's a quick one.

 
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killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
581
All I can tell you is that it happens.


Again, not going to scour the internet looking for examples, because I've already said that it isn't super popular, just that it happens.

"La guerra contras todxs lxs puertorriqueñxs"

Again, the situation we find ourselves in is complicated, but the way to use it is not. Using an X that way seems consistent across the authors mentioned before, even though specifically finding "Latinx" seems difficult to track down.
I'm not aruging that lxs/[email protected] isn't used, it's that it's complicated/complex change when applied linguistically with native speakers. Just because some scholars/authors use it doesn't mean it's widely adapted or even known.

Your example what you posted, it makes sense on paper and isn't that complex to figure out in literary works but saying it out loud is a different ball game.
Linguistically, how would you say "La guerra contras todxs lxs puertorriqueñxs"? Is the x silent? Is the x ignored and o/a used verbally instead? Is the x making the english "ecks" sound?
 
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