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Progressive Latino pollster: 98% of Latinos do not identify with “Latinx” label (ThinkNow Research)

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Lundren

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Oct 27, 2017
1,592
I'm not aruging that lxs/[email protected] isn't used, it's that it's complicated/complex change when applied linguistically with native speakers. Just because some scholars/authors use it doesn't mean it's widely adapted or even known.

Your example what you posted, it makes sense on paper and isn't that complex to figure out in literary works but saying it out loud is a different ball game.
Linguistically, how would you say "La guerra contras todxs lxs puertorriqueñxs"? Is the x silent? Is the x ignored and o/a used verbally instead? Is the x making the english "ecks" sound?
In that case we're basically in agreement.

I am arguing for it's academic useage. I think that in type it works fine and can be understood for what it is, namely as a way to be inclusive to everyone.

Spoken aloud does bring different hurdles, Latinx would be pronounced La-Teen-Ex, or Lat-Tin-Ex, or even Latinks, and we would understand your point. Something like the x being in place of the vowel would be based on whatever you think fits best, I've actually heard that some people pronounce it as an E, which is why the E is more common in Lat-Am.

I think that this is a stopgap term, honestly. I think that this will bring eyes to the issue at hand and once the college educated Spanish speaking people become a majority we will be able to work together to figure it out. Right now, in my opinion, I think this is just a method to tell enbies "hey someone is here for you and cares about what you're going through, you aren't alone."
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,152
Southern California
You failed miserably to group me with actual assholes. What’s stopping anyone that is struggling with their identity from using the word Latin when it covers all? It’s clear some people are confused how the word Latino is used, so why don’t you just say Latin instead of trying to push something that is completely unnecessary and not actually ever used in anything to describe anyone? Any trans person, or any person that doesn’t identify as male or female, and is Latin, is simply just Latin. “Latino” represents the culture as a whole, it’s not a masculine thing at all unless a male is describing himself as a Latino, which is the only part that I suppose “is tricky.” Latin girls I know do call themselves Latina, but not as often as just Latin.

I hope one day certain types of people on this forum stop jumping to conclusions about people they don’t actually know shit about. You don’t know me, so don’t accuse me of shit you’re not sure of.
See, the thing is, you don't get to decide what pronouns other people use for themselves.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
"Don't @ me with facts, I want to freely shit on whoever I want."

This fucking thread sucks.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,331
JP
Grammatical gender is a feature of Romance languages and it’s never going to change. Conflating this with sexism / homophobia is pendejadxs IMHO.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
I'm going to give an example for the people who don't speak spanish in this topic, to understand the pushback from spanish speaking people over this. Let's say, for whatever reason (the actual reason why the change occurs is irrelevant), there is a push to change the name Seattle to Xiattle, based off of the chinese pronunciation of "Xi." Seattlers are now known as Xiattlers to people from other states. People from Xiattle are now like "what the fuck, that's now how we pronounce the letter X" but a bunch of people from Xiattle who also speak chinese are like "no way dudes, this is super simple, it's a natural change."

That is much like what is going on here. People are conflating "Latinx doesn't follow the rules of our language, it follows the rules of other languages" to be "I reject the notion of non-binary inclusion" when that's not the point. You can have non-binary inclusion while still respecting the characteristics of the language in question. Again, as been repeated over and over in this thread, Latine follows the convention of the language and makes sense.

Now, you have some people in here from northern mexico being like "Latinx is easy to pronounce" being typed in english, meaning they are inherently familiar with English pronunciation. It needs to be pointed out that not every spanish speaking person can pronounce Latinx. Depending on dialect, the term "latinx" might be literally unpronouncable. Like Gustaf keeps going on about how he can say "ecks" super easily, but he apparently has never met a spanish person from a dialect that, for example, comes with a natural lisp. There are some dialects that outright cannot pronounce a sharp "cks" noise, it's literally not a phoneme in their dialect. If english speakers wish to understand how it can be "impossible" to pronounce a phoneme not in their language, just remember how many western people struggle to correctly pronounce "Tsu" or "Tso."

Not to mention that, in many spanish speaking dialects, X is not pronounced "ecks."

Now you might be saying, "so what, rules change." Except that the vast majority of people from Latin America are descendents of some sort of Native American heritage. That's a group of people whose culture has vanished. Like, erasure of language is one of the primary and most well understood forms of cultural imperialism, and we're talking about a region that more than possibly any other region has experienced it the hardest. It's extra insulting to tell people to start pronouncing things using the pronunciation of their historical conquerors.
 
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Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
This thread was started to ask Latinos/Latinas their feelings on the word and then the thread turned into Latinos/Latinas being told their opinion doesn't matter lul.
Latino/as have very different opinions on this because our cultures vary wildly. Nobody is telling anyone their opinions don't matter.

P.S bigotry is not an opinion.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,737
Dallas, TX
White dude here, but it’s always felt condescending to me to swoop in and try to degender terms being taken from a language where grammatical gender is a core feature. Especially when there are easy non-gendered alternatives available that don’t require mangling the language, like Hispanic or Latin. Latinx feels designed to bring attention to just go progressive you’re being.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
The reason is not irrelevant. You can't make an honest comparison that starts by ignoring the motivation for change - that people are misgendered by the existing norms of the language.
It is irrelevant for the example, durr.

And your post is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The people pushing back against Latinx aren't doing so because they disagree with anything you are saying. They are doing so because the word outright doesn't make sense. You can't see beyond your preconceived, incorrect notion that the people opposing the word are bigots, to understand their argument.

Again, the general acceptance of the term "latine" in this topic is proof of this, from the very same people who oppose the word "latinx."

like, the entire post flew past your head. You literally ignored it all. You very, very obviously did not read the post.
 

pizzaparty

Member
Oct 28, 2017
398
I'm a 31 year old american born salvadoran; I use and prefer latinx as do many other american born central americans I know.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
White dude here, but it’s always felt condescending to me to swoop in and try to degender terms being taken from a language where grammatical gender is a core feature. Especially when there are easy non-gendered alternatives available that don’t require mangling the language, like Hispanic or Latin. Latinx feels designed to bring attention to just go progressive you’re being.
Latinx was designed to bring attention to the lack of inclusion felt by some people.

You can feel however you want about that aspect, but it is what it is. It was also done by Latin people in the first place. They happen to live in the US, but that changes little if anything.

It is irrelevant for the example, durr.

And your post is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The people pushing back against Latinx aren't doing so because they disagree with anything you are saying. They are doing so because the word outright doesn't make sense. You can't see beyond your preconceived, incorrect notion that the people opposing the word are bigots, to understand their argument.

Again, the general acceptance of the term "latine" in this topic is proof of this, from the very same people who oppose the word "latinx."

like, the entire post flew past your head. You literally ignored it all. You very, very obviously did not read the post.
People are pronouncing the X as an E, apparently. The difference is the spelling, and that seems minor. Latinx and Latine are basically the same. One has traction in one country and the other in another. Like a lot of Spanish words. I'm not mad at el ordenador even though I love my computadora.
 

Objektivity

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,051
Latino/as have very different opinions on this because our cultures vary wildly. Nobody is telling anyone their opinions don't matter.

P.S bigotry is not an opinion.
You must have missed this or conveniently ignored it. People are conflating "Latinx doesn't follow the rules of our language, it follows the rules of other languages" to be "I reject the notion of non-binary inclusion.
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
People are pronouncing the X as an E, apparently. The difference is the spelling, and that seems minor. Latinx and Latine are basically the same. One has traction in one country and the other in another. Like a lot of Spanish words. I'm not mad at el ordenador even though I love my computadora.
There are places that pronounce X as "ha" and have been doing so for hundreds of years. There are other places that pronounce X like "sh." It literally depends on the region, the letter isn't homogeneous in pronunciation.

Even within this topic, from spanish speakers who are for the term, you've seen 3 different pronunciation of "latinx."
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
There are places that pronounce X as "ha" and have been doing so for hundreds of years. There are other places that pronounce X like "sh." It literally depends on the region, the letter isn't homogeneous in pronunciation.
I am aware. What I'm trying to get at is that in the US (the poll in this thread is about the US) it seems fairly simple for people to pronounce. In other Latin American countries when they see it some are pronouncing it as an E. Others are replacing it completely with Latine. We don't get mad that the Dominican Republic uses different words than Ecuador, why is this any different than the Spanglish used in parts of the US?

by that logic you are arguing for the use of a term born from French imperialism .
It's all imperialism. We got fucked by Europe. What I'm saying is that this one word isn't the straw that is breaking my back at the end of the day.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,882
I am aware. What I'm trying to get at is that in the US (the poll in this thread is about the US) it seems fairly simple for people to pronounce. In other Latin American countries when they see it some are pronouncing it as an E. Others are replacing it completely with Latine. We don't get mad that the Dominican Republic uses different words than Ecuador, why is this any different than the Spanglish used in parts of the US?
Reality is, people south of the rio grande dont often use the word in any form and you know it. each country has its own identities that people go by.

The problem is that gringos are using that word to label us all. latino/hispanic was already bad enough
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
I am aware. What I'm trying to get at is that in the US (the poll in this thread is about the US) it seems fairly simple for people to pronounce. In other Latin American countries when they see it some are pronouncing it as an E. Others are replacing it completely with Latine. We don't get mad that the Dominican Republic uses different words than Ecuador, why is this any different than the Spanglish used in parts of the US?
Even within the US, the pronuncation of the letter X varies from spanish speaker to spanish speaker. And, this is a replacement for the spanish terms latino and latina. There is already an english term for that, it's latin. To imply that US spanish speakers are obligated to be able to pronounce "latinx" is insulting. One of my best friends is a naturalized person from guatamala and speaks spanish with a heavy native american accent (being able to actually speak various indigenous languages from guatamala himself). I asked him about this today, the term "latinx" is unpronounceable to him. Is he not part of the US anymore or something? Remember, this is the term for him.

Latine follows the convention of spanish regardless of the country or region, and accomplishes the same exact goal.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
What I'm saying is that this one word isn't the straw that is breaking my back at the end of the day.
And there are people who feel their backs were broken hundreds of years ago and are virulently against this type of cultural imperialism, and they were quite literally told to stop "fear mongering" by a white person who doesn't speak spanish ITT.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
See, the thing is, you don't get to decide what pronouns other people use for themselves.
Do I get to decide what label American marketing departments, journalists, and politicians get to use when referring to me and my people?
It's cool. I used Spanish because he hates linguistic imperialism, which is funny. You know, considering why Latin America speaks Spanish, and all.
Again with this ignorant argument. If you were in tune with Latin American culture, you would know that pride in our language and in the fact that we took the language of our colonizers, gave it our own twist and made it our own is an EXTREMELY common, recurring theme in Latin American literature, poetry, and culture. It is analogous to African Americans being proud and unabashed in their use of Ebonics.
 

bangai-o

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,246
I wonder if there were bans here of posters complaining about the use of the term. Everytime someone tried to use it, posters complained about it.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
Reality is, people south of the rio grande dont often use the word in any form and you know it. each country has its own identities that people go by.
Even within the US, the pronuncation of the letter X varies from spanish speaker to spanish speaker. And, this is a replacement for the spanish terms latino and latina. There is already an english term for that, it's latin. To imply that US spanish speakers are obligated to be able to pronounce "latinx" is insulting. One of my best friends is a naturalized person from guatamala and speaks spanish with a heavy native american accent (being able to actually speak various indigenous languages from guatamala himself). I asked him about this today, the term "latinx" is unpronounceable to him. Is he not part of the US anymore or something? Remember, this is the term for him.

Latine follows the convention of spanish regardless of the country or region, and accomplishes the same exact goal.
I'm very confused. Point me to where I said anyone should be forced to use this term and I will edit it.

I'm glad the term exists. I don't care if anyone uses it, but I'm happy for the thought behind it and I'm happy that people who do use it have something that they feel includes them in the conversation.

And there are people who feel their backs were broken hundreds of years ago and are virulently against this type of cultural imperialism, and they were quite literally told to stop "fear mongering" by a white person who doesn't speak spanish ITT.
I'm not sure who you are talking about. I have nothing to say about this.

gave it our own twist and made it our own
Hmmm.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
We don't get mad that the Dominican Republic uses different words than Ecuador, why is this any different than the Spanglish used in parts of the US?
Just to give an example of how this IS an enduring problem, world wide, and how calling people by names they don't identify is actually a serious, cultural issue, I'll give an example completely removed from the Americas: Korean. There are 3 terms for Korean - a term for North Korean, a term for South Korean, and a general term for Korean as a unified place. These are terms in their own language. Depending on where you are, using these terms will get a black eye. For example, even people who defect from North Korea, get furious when being called "north koreans." Like wise, calling a south korean, "unified korean" will make them upset too. And this is after 50 years of isolation, where the two countries languages have actually begun to diverge.

Now advance this cultural identification to the term for yourself by hundreds of years. THAT is why people have strong feelings about this.
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
I'm very confused. Point me to where I said anyone should be forced to use this term and I will edit it.
this is a conversation about use of the word in general. I agree, call anybody by what they want to be called. I am speaking of my own experiences, I have quite literally been told on this board -- not by you, mind you -- to not refer to myself as a Latino (and I identify as a man) because it's problematic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,882
Just to give an example of how this IS an enduring problem, world wide, and how calling people by names they don't identify is actually a serious, cultural issue, I'll give an example completely removed from the Americas: Korean. There are 3 terms for Korean - a term for North Korean, a term for South Korean, and a general term for Korean as a unified place. These are terms in their own language. Depending on where you are, using these terms will get a black eye. For example, even people who defect from North Korea, get furious when being called "north koreans." Like wise, calling a south korean, "unified korean" will make them upset too. And this is after 50 years of isolation, where the two countries languages have actually begun to diverge.

Now advance this cultural identification to the term for yourself by hundreds of years. THAT is why people have strong feelings about this.
Its impossible to have them understand, We should just be good thirdworlders and accept whatever label our US masters gift upon us
 

Boiled Goose

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,283
this is a conversation about use of the word in general. I agree, call anybody by what they want to be called. I am speaking of my own experiences, I have quite literally been told on this board -- not by you, mind you -- to not refer to myself as a Latino (and I identify as a man) because it's problematic.
People forcing labels on anyone is absurd.

Though some reflection and effort to be more inclusive is a good thing
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
Just to give an example of how this IS an enduring problem, world wide, and how calling people by names they don't identify is actually a serious, cultural issue, I'll give an example completely removed from the Americas: Korean. There are 3 terms for Korean - a term for North Korean, a term for South Korean, and a general term for Korean as a unified place. These are terms in their own language. Depending on where you are, using these terms will get a black eye. For example, even people who defect from North Korea, get furious when being called "north koreans." Like wise, calling a south korean, "unified korean" will make them upset too. And this is after 50 years of isolation, where the two countries languages have actually begun to diverge.

Now advance this cultural identification to the term for yourself by hundreds of years. THAT is why people have strong feelings about this.
I'm aware why people have strong feeling about this.

I have strong feelings about it too.

I don't like the sentiment that Latin Americans who live in the US and came up with this term or use it are just "white people."

this is a conversation about use of the word in general. I agree, call anybody by what they want to be called. I am speaking of my own experiences, I have quite literally been told on this board -- not by you, mind you -- to not refer to myself as a Latino (and I identify as a man) because it's problematic.
That's shitty, and I'm sorry it happened to you.
 
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