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Progressive Latino pollster: 98% of Latinos do not identify with “Latinx” label (ThinkNow Research)

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GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
I'm very confused. Point me to where I said anyone should be forced to use this term and I will edit it.

I'm glad the term exists. I don't care if anyone uses it, but I'm happy for the thought behind it and I'm happy that people who do use it have something that they feel includes them in the conversation.



I'm not sure who you are talking about. I have nothing to say about this.



Hmmm.
Answer the goddamn question: Do we or do we not have a say in what label American marketing departments, journalists, and politicians use to refer to all of us? If you'll read the article, informing that decision was the express purpose for having conducted the poll. Nobody who hasn't already been banned is arguing that non-binary Latino Americans do not have a right to self-identify however they please, and you are being extremely disingenuous in trying to frame the argument in those terms.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
19,204
People forcing labels on anyone is absurd.

Though some reflection and effort to be more inclusive is a good thing
I gave the example earlier in this thread of how I call my f2m trans cousin a "latino" in the name of inclusion, because he's a guy.

This is why I made my long post in above, there is a ton of insinuation in this thread from non-spanish speakers that the pushback is because of a want to exclude people. Hell, someone responded to my post to say the exact same thing my post was dismissing.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
Answer the goddamn question: Do we or do we not have a say in what label American marketing departments, journalists, and politicians use to refer to all of us?
Obviously.

The problem is, we all feel differently about it. If someone hates being called Latino they are no less right or wrong than someone who hates being called Latinx or Hispanic.

We're not going to agree on the term to use for all of us, so we have to get used to sometimes being called one of the things we don't like.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
4,075
This thread sort reminds me of the XKCD comic "standards" ("there are 14 standards, we should create a unifying standard that applies to all of them!" and then there are 15 standards) in a way?

If "Latinx" (or similar) was created to be "inclusive" but people don't feel "included" in the term, is it actually inclusive?
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
And the concept of latin america from where all this comes from is not?
It also was.

We're a bunch of extremely different groups forced to share an umbrella we didn't sign up for. So those colonizers could have an easier job.

That's why I refer to myself as being from the country I am. If someone wants to throw an E or an X at the end of their country to label themselves, more power to them.

This thread sort reminds me of the XKCD comic "standards" ("there are 14 standards, we should create a unifying standard that applies to all of them!" and then there are 15 standards) in a way?

If "Latinx" (or similar) was created to be "inclusive" but people don't feel "included" in the term, is it actually inclusive?
You make a good point. A different reason for the term was to bring attention to the inclusivity. Which I personally think worked. Look at this discussion.
 

juice

Member
Dec 28, 2017
130
This thread sort reminds me of the XKCD comic "standards" ("there are 14 standards, we should create a unifying standard that applies to all of them!" and then there are 15 standards) in a way?

If "Latinx" (or similar) was created to be "inclusive" but people don't feel "included" in the term, is it actually inclusive?
this take strikes me as very astute and rings true
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,331
JP
Non binary people do exist and unfortunately spanish is a gendered language.
So should we also say Mexicanxs, maestrxs, personxs, ingenierxs, panaderxs, bomberxs, traductorxs, hermanxs, etc? It’s just being realistic when we say it’s never going to happen. It’s not a pushback against NB identity.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,421
This thread sort reminds me of the XKCD comic "standards" ("there are 14 standards, we should create a unifying standard that applies to all of them!" and then there are 15 standards) in a way?

If "Latinx" (or similar) was created to be "inclusive" but people don't feel "included" in the term, is it actually inclusive?
It really does say something when an inclusive term seems to exclude 98% of people.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
So should we also say Mexicanxs, maestrxs, personxs, ingenierxs, panaderxs, bomberxs, traductorxs, hermanxs, etc? It’s just being realistic when we say it’s never going to happen. It’s not a pushback against NB identity.
It's happening in the same academic circles as Latinx. I gave some examples a page or two back.

Note: those academics (US or not) don't expect everyone to use them, nor do they expect those who do to do it all the time.

It really does say something when an inclusive term seems to exclude 98% of people.
People not identifying as it, doesn't mean they are excluded within it.
 

alstrike

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
675
The poor writers on the "Mr. Iglesias" show on Netflix are gonna have a great time retconning this...
 

Fierro

Member
Oct 29, 2017
930
I was going to work with my brothers and father. We watched a youtube video explaining Latinx and we just laughed at it. The way we understood it, is that it is for those that are not non-binary and Latino/a are for those that are.

I am binary and would never refer to myself as Latinx. If someone I knew would want to be called that sure why not.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
That's a really, really shitty justification, as the exact same reasoning could be used to justify why "latino" is gender neutral.
It isn't a justification. It was a word that was specifically made for everyone. If people don't want to use it, that's fine, but it doesn't change what it was made to be or what it was made to point out. Latino is gender neutral for different reasons.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
4,075
It also was.

We're a bunch of extremely different groups forced to share an umbrella we didn't sign up for. So those colonizers could have an easier job.

That's why I refer to myself as being from the country I am. If someone wants to throw an E or an X at the end of their country to label themselves, more power to them.
Yeah, the thread also reminded me that I've always thought it weird that we group basically all of Central/South America into a single group. I'm not even sure what the practical use in doing that is (except to help white nationalists "other" these people more efficiently).
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,331
JP
It's happening in the same academic circles as Latinx. I gave some examples a page or two back.

Note: those academics (US or not) don't expect everyone to use them, nor do they expect those who do to do it all the time.



People not identifying as it, doesn't mean they are excluded within it.
I personally don’t have any issue with the word I guess, but I’ve never been to an English speaking country so I’ve never heard it / used it. I guess there’s no problem with its usage as long as there’s awareness that it’s not going to become a thing in Spanish speaking countries. And again, it has nothing to do with NB hate or whatever.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
Obviously.

The problem is, we all feel differently about it. If someone hates being called Latino they are no less right or wrong than someone who hates being called Latinx or Hispanic.

We're not going to agree on the term to use for all of us, so we have to get used to sometimes being called one of the things we don't like.
So the solution should be to use all three, 'latino/latina/latinx', in conjunction rather than to attempt to make 'latinx' the inclusive, catch-all term. No unreasonable person should object to that.

Again, the issue many of us have is that the use of 'latinx' as THE catch-all term for 'latino/latina/latinx' is being amplified by American marketing departments, journalists, and politicians (the very reason the poll was conducted in the first place; AS STATED IN THE ARTICLE). That reeks of cultural imperialism regardless of its very legitimate use as a self-identifier among some non-binary Latin Americans.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
Yeah, the thread also reminded me that I've always thought it weird that we group basically all of Central/South America into a single group. I'm not even sure what the practical use in doing that is (except to help white nationalists "other" these people more efficiently).
Even in terms of voting in the US we could not be more different. I don't share the beliefs that many Miami Cubans do.

I personally don’t have any issue with the word I guess, but I’ve never been to an English speaking country so I’ve never heard it / used it. I guess there’s no problem with its usage as long as there’s awareness that it’s not going to become a thing in Spanish speaking countries. And again, it has nothing to do with NB hate or whatever.
It's all good. We all have terms the others haven't heard of. It makes it weird when a word means something offensive in one country and not another.

So the solution should be to use all three, 'latino/latina/latinx', in conjunction rather than to attempt to make 'latinx' the inclusive, catch-all term. No unreasonable person should object to that.

Again, the issue many of us have is that the use of 'latinx' as THE catch-all term for 'latino/latina/latinx' is being amplified by American marketing departments, journalists, and politicians (the very reason the poll was conducted in the first place; AS STATED IN THE ARTICLE). That reeks of cultural imperialism regardless of its very legitimate use as a self-identifier among some non-binary Latin Americans.
We can at the very least, agree here.

My main source of contention was the dismissiveness in this thread towards people identifying as Latinx. People claiming they would laugh or whatever.

Keep in mind I don't see Latinx taking off all that much outside of academic circles anyway. The numbers in the poll point to that.

i will always read it as "La Tinx"
That's fine. It is mostly a written term anyway.
 

Syriel

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,462
It isn't a justification. It was a word that was specifically made for everyone. If people don't want to use it, that's fine, but it doesn't change what it was made to be or what it was made to point out. Latino is gender neutral for different reasons.
As Krejlooc eloquently pointed out (multiple times) it's not.

Latinx is NOT an inclusive term for native Latin Americans.

As a descriptor for LGBT and non-binary Americans of Latino descent? Sure, if that's what they want to call themselves.

But it is not an inclusive way to describe the larger group. If you want to be inclusive, you use Latine.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
We can at the very least, agree here.

My main source of contention was the dismissiveness in this thread towards people identifying as Latinx. People claiming they would laugh or whatever.
We can also agree that those posts were unambiguously transphobic and dismissive, and that those sorts of attitudes have no place in a civil society.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,592
As Krejlooc eloquently pointed out (multiple times) it's not.

Latinx is NOT an inclusive term for native Latin Americans.

As a descriptor for LGBT and non-binary Americans of Latino descent? Sure, if that's what they want to call themselves.

But it is not an inclusive way to describe the larger group. If you want to be inclusive, you use Latine.
From the places I've read, they share the same birth. They are basically the same thing but used in different countries. Take what I said about Latinx and apply it to Latine.

ETA: This is just my experience, which I went over in an earlier post. It could be misinformed.
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
My main source of contention was the dismissiveness in this thread towards people identifying as Latinx. People claiming they would laugh or whatever.
I don't think anyone should be cheering on the notion that one should laugh at people who want to be called latinx, although you're right that there is some of that going on in a few posts. Those posts are a very small minority, at least in this thread, thankfully.
 

RedDevil

Member
Dec 25, 2017
1,584
This thread sort reminds me of the XKCD comic "standards" ("there are 14 standards, we should create a unifying standard that applies to all of them!" and then there are 15 standards) in a way?

If "Latinx" (or similar) was created to be "inclusive" but people don't feel "included" in the term, is it actually inclusive?
In some actual spanish speaking countries there's the push for the "e" in nouns and adjectives, for example todos/todas/todes, now it's also been a matter of ridicule because in reality the o is already the inclusive one, it isn't just for males, so in reality they should get rid of the female defining ones instead of a made up one.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,934
Again with this ignorant argument. If you were in tune with Latin American culture, you would know that pride in our language and in the fact that we took the language of our colonizers, gave it our own twist and made it our own is an EXTREMELY common, recurring theme in Latin American literature, poetry, and culture. It is analogous to African Americans being proud and unabashed in their use of Ebonics.
this would be gravy in a vacuum, but it isn't. which is why I think Latinx will be around for a while. People in this thread seem to think it came from white North Americans trying to push political correctness.

But if this is not the case, if it came from members of the Latin American community that felt culturally othered in more ways than one; they needed a term for them that [email protected], latine, and the rest didn't cover, it probably has more work to do.
 

Boiled Goose

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,283
I gave the example earlier in this thread of how I call my f2m trans cousin a "latino" in the name of inclusion, because he's a guy.

This is why I made my long post in above, there is a ton of insinuation in this thread from non-spanish speakers that the pushback is because of a want to exclude people. Hell, someone responded to my post to say the exact same thing my post was dismissing.
Oh, i don't think you shouldn't use latino latina when gender is known. The question is what term to use for groups or gender neutral situations
 

Boiled Goose

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,283
So should we also say Mexicanxs, maestrxs, personxs, ingenierxs, panaderxs, bomberxs, traductorxs, hermanxs, etc? It’s just being realistic when we say it’s never going to happen. It’s not a pushback against NB identity.
Again. I don't know what the answer is, but Spanish is not only gendered but male as default is sexist. Even more egregious for things like "padres"
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
this would be gravy in a vacuum, but it isn't. which is why I think Latinx will be around for a while. People in this thread seem to think it came from white North Americans trying to push political correctness.

But if this is not the case, if it came from members of the Latin American community that felt culturally othered in more ways than one; they needed a term for them that [email protected], latine, and the rest didn't cover, it probably has more work to do.
Their right to feel that the existing terms did not include them and to self-identify with 'latinx' does not extend to a right to decide that everyone else should feel included by that term. But that's beside the point, because they're not the ones who are pushing for 'latinx' as the catch-all term for 'latino/latina/latinx'. As is plainly stated in the article in the OP, the issue is that American marketing departments, journalists, politicians, and American popular culture is attempting to amplify its usage as the inclusive, catch-all term, in favor of the terms 'latino' and 'latina' with which the vast majority of us identify. I am no more obligated to feel included in 'latinx' than non-binary Latin Americans are obligated to feel included in 'latino'.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,374
this is a conversation about use of the word in general. I agree, call anybody by what they want to be called. I am speaking of my own experiences, I have quite literally been told on this board -- not by you, mind you -- to not refer to myself as a Latino (and I identify as a man) because it's problematic.
You should definitely report those people because no one should be telling you how to identify. If you did report it and it wasn't taken care of, I apologize.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,934
Their right to feel that the existing terms did not include them and to self-identify with 'latinx' does not extend to a right to decide that everyone else should feel included by that term. But that's beside the point, because they're not the ones who are pushing for 'latinx' as the catch-all term for 'latino/latina/latinx'. As is plainly stated in the article in the OP, the issue is that American marketing departments, journalists, politicians, and American popular culture is attempting to amplify its usage as the inclusive, catch-all term, in favor of the terms 'latino' and 'latina' with which the vast majority of us identify. I am no more obligated to feel included in 'latinx' than non-binary Latin Americans are obligated to feel included in 'latino'.

is it beside the point?

and there is this implication of a push, but no evidence of one. some argue that anecdotal samples pulled from social media and politicians trying to be inclusive to LGBTQNB people is indicative of a "push", but that isn't clear.

the medium article sets out to investigate the current acceptance of the term latinx, which is almost a foregone conclusion since the framing varies from white academics forcing people into using it, to imperialists and politicians deciding what the new term for latin people will be, to internet influencers sneaking it in, insidiously. nowhere does it say that it comes from latin people who take issue with the traditional cultural gender forms in the language. Which seems to be the actual issue people want to ignore.

who is pushing back, and where is that pushback going against? white people? academics? or the people who supposedly came up with the term, lgbtqnb latin americans?
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
is it beside the point?

and there is this implication of a push, but no evidence of one. some argue that anecdotal samples pulled from social media and politicians trying to be inclusive to LGBTQNB people is indicative of a "push", but that isn't clear.

the medium article sets out to investigate the current acceptance of the term latinx, which is almost a foregone conclusion since the framing varies from white academics forcing people into using it, to imperialists and politicians deciding what the new term for latin people will be, to internet influencers sneaking it in, insidiously. nowhere does it say that it comes from latin people who take issue with the traditional cultural gender forms in the language. Which seems to be the actual issue people want to ignore.
Over the past few months and years, several of our clients have noticed the term “Latinx” trending as a new ethnic label to describe Latinos. It has been used by academics, activists, and major companies, including NBC and Marvel, as well as politicians like Senator Elizabeth Warren.
Will anything short of a scientific, peer-reviewed study on the frequency of the term in American popular culture rise to your standard of acceptable, non-anecdotal evidence of a trend (just so nobody fixates on the use of the word 'push'...)?

Latin Americans don't feel included when Elizabeth Warren uses the term 'latinx' as an umbrella term for 'latino/latina/latinx'. You, nobody else, and *especially* not American popular culture, has a right to decide what term we should feel included in. And you are still avoiding answering our question of whether we should have a say in what label should be used to refer to us, even when nobody's disputing that non-binary Latin Americans have a right to self-label however they wish.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,934
Will anything short of a scientific, peer-reviewed study on the frequency of the term in American popular culture rise to your standard of acceptable, non-anecdotal evidence of a trend (just so nobody fixates on the use of the word 'push'...)?
trend is fair and a lot less loaded term than 'push' obviously. I'll agree that it has been trending as of late in some progressive media i listen to but it's leftist multicultural pro-lgbtqnb programming, deliberately trying to be inclusive. And I assume Warren is taking a cue from those people, versus hypothetical 'marketing pushes'.

Latin Americans don't feel included when Elizabeth Warren uses the term 'latinx' as an umbrella term for 'latino/latina/latinx'. And you are still avoiding answering our question of whether we should have a say in what label should be used to refer to us, even when nobody's disputing that non-binary Latin Americans have a right to self-label however they wish.
this question was for me? who is we? Does your we include the ones who don't feel included?
"we are latinx"
"nuh uh, don't you put that evil on me! we are latino and latina!"
"but...."
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
453
trend is fair and a lot less loaded term than 'push' obviously. I'll agree that it has been trending as of late in some progressive media i listen to but it's leftist multicultural pro-lgbtqnb programming, deliberately trying to be inclusive. And I assume Warren is taking a cue from those people, versus hypothetical 'marketing pushes'.
Inclusive would be to use 'latino/latina/latinx' in conjunction. 'latinx' as the umbrella term assumes that everyone else feels included within it. Not the case. So when it's used as an umbrella term in American popular culture, it reeks of cultural imperialism. And I will point out, once again, that the author of the article is a market researcher, whose clients are marketing departments, and whose express purpose in having conducted the poll is to advise his clients (=marketing departments) on the use of the term...

this question was for me? who is we? Does your we include the ones who don't feel included?
"we are latinx"
"nuh uh, don't you put that evil on me! we are latino and latina!"
No, that would not be a problem... which is why the criticism is directed at American popular culture rather than non-binary people Latin Americans.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
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Oct 27, 2017
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You should definitely report those people because no one should be telling you how to identify. If you did report it and it wasn't taken care of, I apologize.
I don't want to get someone in trouble for that, and their heart was in the right place, just their execution poor. I'd much rather people actually tried to listen to why I reject the term, instead of insinuating I have something against transgender individuals as I've seen many times ITT.
 

Akira86

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Oct 25, 2017
9,934

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
19,204
Is latino/a considered an offensive word? Genuinely curious now...
just to clarify, and definitely NOT picking on you, but THIS is the mindset that causes me to reject this term. Because it creates this atmosphere where terms like "latino" have people questioning whether or not they're offensive terms.

I am a latino, you can definitely call me that. In fact, I'd prefer you did.
 

KunaiDrilla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,530
Harlem, NYC
just to clarify, and definitely NOT picking on you, but THIS is the mindset that causes me to reject this term. Because it creates this atmosphere where terms like "latino" have people questioning whether or not they're offensive terms.

I am a latino, you can definitely call me that. In fact, I'd prefer you did.
This is the beef I have been having with the word for a very long time. If you called yourself Latinx no issues what so ever. But to describe a whole group, no.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
628
Mexico City
Like, I'm fairly certain most of us posting here don't mind if an individual wants to be referred to as latinx. What we do feel uncomfortable/weird about is academics/politics using the term to refer to all of us collectively, for many reasons, when it's clear most of us don't use or identify with the term. Isn't that a form of mislabeling in itself, which the term is supposed to be trying to avoid? Latin American isn't gendered in English, neither is persona latina/[email protected]/latine in Spanish.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,009
  • People should be free to refer to themselves as they are comfortable and that be respected
  • Latinx should be respected when people identify with it and wish to use it
  • It should not be forced as some universal overwrite for all Latin American people
  • Latine is fine/preferable for general use when it doesn’t conflict with 1 or 2.
From reading the discussions it seems most people agree with the above?
 
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Gustaf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,912
it could be the fact that there is a fucking lot of regionalisms on the way people on my region talk that the "THAS NOT HOW SPANISH WORKS!" its such a bullshit thing to me.

like, we say things like "parqueate ahi", "beisbol", "wachate eso" "troca"

like it's not something weird to me to have a english word and transform it to spanish. spanish language rules be damned.

people try to bring the RAE when im pretty sure the same RAE said 40 years ago the word Beisbol didnt exist.
 

Regulus Tera

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Oct 25, 2017
10,830
it could be the fact that there is a fucking lot of regionalisms on the way people on my region talk that the "THAS NOT HOW SPANISH WORKS!" its such a bullshit thing to me.

like, we say things like "parqueate ahi", "beisbol", "wachate eso" "troca"

like it's not something weird to me to have a english word and transform it to spanish. spanish language rules be damned.

people try to bring the RAE when im pretty sure the same RAE said 40 years ago the word Beisbol didnt exist.
The problem is not with incorporating anglicisms into Spanish, but that said anglicisms need to work with the way Spanish is phonetically written. Latinx is completely at odds with that aspect of the language.

This is why I'm a proponent of Latine, even if I believe it sounds just as corny.
 
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