Progressive Latino pollster: 98% of Latinos do not identify with “Latinx” label (ThinkNow Research)

[TacoSupreme]

I'm not saying people shouldn't use Latinx, and I'm not trying to dismiss this as "kek it was created by white Americans." But I personally find it problematic that so much of the push for using Latinx as a catch-all for people who generally prefer to be addressed differently comes from white Americans.

Obviously anyone who wants to be called Latinx should be respected. And I recognize that many who promote the word aren't white Americans. But I can't ignore this nasty feeling that a lot of self-identified white progressive Americans think that, by virtue of being progressive, they're immune to behaving in a colonial manner. Spoiler alert: They're not.

 

[CountAntonio]

I'm a LatinXXX

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

What the hell is latinx?

 

[IrishNinja]

Inclusive alternatives do exist: Latine and Latin@.

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how would you pronounce the latter, though?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm not being insulting here, but it honestly sounds like you have very, very little experience with this subject. I talk to people from other spanish speaking languages, in spanish. The idea of cultural imperialism from US hispanics is a big subject among latinos from other countries. Like, Tejano music is understood to be US appropriation of Norteno music, despite it all being Spanish.

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We're literally mostly talking about people who are struggling just to find a way to speak about themselves within their own culture and to navigate what it means to be non binary and shit... maybe hold off on the fear mongering about fucking American Imperalism in this instance?

Like talking about fucking right wing death squads and shit because some American Latinix people invented a gender neutral term you don't like?

Like this thread is bluntly transphobic as all fuck.

 

[DorkLord54]

The post you replied to never once said anything about white people, it was, word for word:



YOU replied calling it garbage, and YOU brought up White People to that poster.

Believe it or not, hispanics in the US, still count as the US.

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I mean, that person is more-or-less implying Latinx is a scheme by U.S. liberals to spread American ideals abroad instead of American-born Latinos trying to be more inclusive due to the inherent gendered nature of Spanish vis-a-vis English (who - it must be said - have very little power in American society or over American foreign policy outside of exiled gusanos).

EDIT: Also, in my anecdotal experiences as a non-Latino white person, I've only ever seen Latinx used by other Latino people, while it's most derided by Plastic Irish types who, if you ask them if they've ever been to Cork, they respond 'Why are we talking about wine?'

 

[Cantaim]

Look I just call non-binary people what they want to be called. Apparently me doing that is controversial according to this thread.

 

[Lundren]

THIS

being honest the reject for this word, im almost 100% sure is funded on the machismo and homphobia of latin american culture.

*shrugs*

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Yup.

Don't make assumptions. Some of us annoyed with the term aren't cis.

We already have a gender-inclusive term to use in English. Latin American.

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Funny how in a thread about words used and language in general you completely missed the "a bunch of" meaning "not all but some." You are correct, you don't have to be cis to not give two fucks about enbies. We can have multiple words for the same thing, and people are free to use whatever makes them comfortable. Given how the community treats LGBT people, I would say they can do whatever the fuck they want, since they've earned that shit.

Once again most of the people posting in this thread is why many nonbinary and queer people feel uncomfortable speaking up

It's nice to read the other words that are used for inclusion so thank you to those people vs the complete toxicity exuding from most people

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Exactly. So many people who consider themselves progressive or liberal have this huge blind spot and will sound like republicans at the drop of a hat.

Ustedes pelean por las cosas mas mierdas algunas veces , es una fucking palabra , porque la gente se molesta tanto? no hay problema en usarla si alguien se identifica con eso.

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Dilo otra vez para que te oigan.

"It's stupid, only white liberals use it"

*Numerous people attest to using it that are a part of the culture in question*

"So dumb, only white people use it"

Let's not even bother to entertain the "I don't like it, non-binary people should use this word I prefer" takes.

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I'm so tired of it always being specific people who have to "get used" to shit. Inflexible when it comes to anything they find annoying in the slightest. That is why change is so slow.

 

[Tetrinski]

This is English speaker bullshit. In Spanish speaking countries, those who want to change the genderization of the language use an E termination. Why? Because it's fucking pronunciable. There's no way in Spanish to pronounce an X at the end of a word when it's preceded by a vowel and followed by nothing.

 

[excelsiorlef]

self hating latinos.

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Why would they be self hating?

This thread is fucking wild

 

[Trup1aya]

Or the opposite, occasionally. This is actually a big problem inherent to the language, and not just spanish but all gendered languages.

What is actually happening is that you're seeing a lossy conversion. Spanish actually carries more information per unit of language than in english, when you translate from spanish to english, you automatically lose some of the information conveyed. Like all lossy conversions, trying to then go back the other way means interpolating information where there is none present. This became a huge deal regarding google translate:

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Isn't this more of a problem of an incorrect translation though?

Like if I say Trump is having problems courting Latino voters, it doesn't mean he has a problem with Latin American males. It means he has a problem with Latin American people in general, regardless of gender identity.

If someone wanted to dissect that conversation by gender identity, the would provide more context.

Again, I'm ignorant on this subject. Maybe some actual examples of latino/a being used in a way were needed info is missing would help.

 

[Jest]

same reason there's a push to use pronouns when we're CIS - it's the most minor of gwstures in an effort to normalize something to make trans/NB lives slightly less hellish, because us as the default plays a part in all the suffering/death these communities experience - but that's a larger conversation than this thread is ready to have

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This is the only part that I think is really an issue and even as in issue it's a bit unique.

For a Cisgendered person that wants to be inclusive the topic is difficult to navigate because there's so many terms and no consensus on what those terms even mean within the communities they apply to, let alone a consensus on which term(s) won't perpetuate a feeling of being alienated/othered.

There's Latino, Latinx, Latine, and Hispanic (among other even lesser used terms) and using any of those terms has the potential to bother at the least or other/insult at the worst despite the possibility of the person using that term trying to be inclusive or respectful in choosing whichever term they use. So it can end up making those people confused AND still has the potential of hurting the people it's specifically trying not to hurt.

Compare it to Black and African American as terms in the US or even Native and Indigenous (and Native American in the US specifically) and you can see how much more complex the issue of terminology is for the people this topic most applies to.

People being what they are, it unfortunately results in more pushback than inclusive terminology for other communities typically gets (which is already far too much) which ends up making even more people want to just toss up their hands on it.

I have no clue what the solution could be aside from just trying to use an inclusive term and apologizing if it offends even if that feels an inadequate approach.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

This is English speaker bullshit. In Spanish speaking countries, those who want to change the genderization of the language use an E termination. Why? Because it's fucking pronunciable. There's no way in Spanish to pronounce an X at the end of a word when it's preceded by a vowel and followed by nothing.

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I think most of us here that don't like Latinx agree that Latine sounds way better.

 

[Salarians]

people sure do hate non-binary people huh

 

[excelsiorlef]

For the record I will, when in doubt, use Latine as it seems to have a bit more broader support (unless who I am talking to asks for Latinix), while here I'll use Latinix mostly as we're talking about the word.


But be real Latine won't change the results of the poll that drastically will it? You'll get what 90%? Maybe?

Because it's not just the literal world that's freaking a lot of people out is it?

 

[Tezz]

Oh good, I was afraid we might go a day without a thread shitting on trans concerns. Phew.

 

[applejuice]

people sure do hate non-binary people huh

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nice try, latine already existed before latinx and is both friendly to the language and its speakers.

 

[kiKs__]

As a Spanish speaking person I don't like it and I'll never use it. They're better terms that already exist that include non binary people.

 

[crienne]

This is the only part that I think is really an issue and even as in issue it's a bit unique.

For a Cisgendered person that wants to be inclusive the topic is difficult to navigate because there's so many terms and no consensus on what those terms even mean within the communities they apply to, let alone a consensus on which term(s) won't perpetuate a feeling of being alienated/othered.

There's Latino, Latinx, Latine, and Hispanic (among other even lesser used terms) and using any of those terms has the potential to bother at the least or other/insult at the worst despite the possibility of the person using that term trying to be inclusive or respectful in choosing whichever term they use. So it can end up making those people confused AND still has the potential of hurting the people it's specifically trying not to hurt.

Compare it to Black and African American as terms in the US or even Native and Indigenous (and Native American in the US specifically) and you can see how much more complex the issue of terminology is for the people this topic most applies to.

People being what they are, it unfortunately results in more pushback than inclusive terminology for other communities typically gets (which is already far too much) which ends up making even more people want to just toss up their hands on it.

I have no clue what the solution could be aside from just trying to use an inclusive term and apologizing if it offends even if that feels an inadequate approach.

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I understand what you're saying here, but I have to use this a launching point to ask: How many people do you think actually get offended if you use the wrong term for them? I always worry that cishet people tend to THINK everyone's going to get offended if they misgender or use the wrong term for them. This is all anecdotal, but I've seen cis people get more offended by being misgendered (saying 'miss' to a male/'sir' to a female by accident) than the trans/nb people I know. Most of the time they tend to either say nothing and internalize very negative feelings about it, or calmly explain the situation and hope to educate.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Like legit a few people speaking about solely about pronunciation aside this thread is indistinguishable from the shitty parts of reddit and /pol

 

[Relix]

nice try, latine already existed before latinx and is both friendly to the language and its speakers.

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Latine makes perfect sense within the context of the language. Latinx or latina@ make no sense at all.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

Monica Castillo and Shea Serrano and other fellow latinx writers and journalists I follow use it so to me they are closer to the authority on the subject matter. Gonna continue using it.

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I think that's another issue. A lot of Latin Americans do not like being called Latinx nor do they like their group being referred to as Latinx.

It's an unpopular term among Latin Americans even if it is gender-inclusive. So there's going to be a lot more pushback on it even among more progressive people.

No one wants to be called something they don't accept as labels for their people.

 

[Lundren]

people sure do hate non-binary people huh

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And will loudly shout at them to tell them which terms they should use.

 

[Fart Master]

I only hear white people say it and yeah I don't like it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Most of the time they tend to either say nothing and internalize very negative feelings

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...

You say like that's nothing serious

 

[Xaszatm]

nice try, latine already existed before latinx and is both friendly to the language and its speakers.

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The poster bringing up the phrase "self-hating Latinos" sure ain't transphobic no

/s

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Isn't this more of a problem of an incorrect translation though?

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Sorta, but it's more a problem of lost information inherent to the language. The translation is "incorrect," because it becomes impossible to restore the original interpretation. It's not really an incorrect translation, those are about the most correct translations you can get from the limited information conveyed (in that, both "he is a doctor" and "she is a doctor" are both correct, even though neither are what the original sentence actually said -- it's more like "person is a doctor"). It's the languages themselves that truncate the information that used to be inherent to the sentence. An original spanish sentence can convey more information than an english sentence could, and thus when you tried to translate the english sentence back into spanish, there outright wouldn't be information to be translated in the first place.

Now, the attempt to solve this inherent lack of information is where the awful bias really shows it's head, you're right. I.e. "doctors are usually male." That's ultimately where the "he is a doctor" translation occurs, because the original turkish sentence in that case never said "he" or "she" in the first place.

 

[Blue Skies]

I think it's wrong that y'all are trying to attribute some sort of bigotry to the majority of us in here saying the term is stupid/not spanish

 

[Gustaf]

Like legit a few people speaking about solely about pronunciation aside this thread is indistinguishable from the shitty parts of reddit and /pol

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i cannot fathom people being against the fucking word just because "it sounds bad"

there a lot of fucking things that sound bad when you speak spanish, but THIS where they stand their ground.

 

[Drksage]

Qué porciento de la población hispanohablante usa "latinx" o tan siquiera sabe qué es "latinx" en primer lugar? Respeto todo hispanohablante que decida identificarse o usar tales términos, pero el problema es cuando la cultura popular estadounidense decide de manera colectiva que esa es la manera única y correcta de usar el lenguaje español, lo cual es lo que está sucediendo en este caso.

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Ding Ding Ding
Nothing pisses me off more than that. Woke america trying to be the cherry on top on how the rest of the world should follow suit

 

[crienne]

...

You say like that's nothing serious

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You're right, I made that sound kind of glib and that was fucked up.

My point was that people tend to pushback against inclusive terms because, "If I use the wrong thing they'll get offended and yell at me!" and that's not the reality of the situation that I've seen. Basically, don't pushback against these terms because you're afraid of reactions towards you. Learn to accept the terms so people don't have to internalize those negative feelings.

 

[Yams]

how would you pronounce the latter, though?

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The latter was intended for written word not speech.

 

[Infcabbage]

As a Spanish speaking person I don't like it and I'll never use it. They're better terms that already exist that include non binary people.

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Not even if somebody asks you to because it works for them?

 

[Lumination]

As an outsider looking in, this just feels like a case of possible language evolution. There is a small (2%, from this article) subset of Latinos that like using Latinx, while the vast majority like the status quo, which just happens to be a word stemming from a language with culturally masculine and feminine words. That 2% may naturally grow or shrink over time as more people get exposed to it, but I don't think it's right to think "oh, just because they prefer their culturally traditional word, they must be an enemy or don't support LBGTQ+" or whatever.

EDIT: On second thought, in English, we do this with he/she and now we use they as well. So maybe the parallel is closer than I think?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Nothing pisses me off more than that. Woke america trying to be the cherry on top on how the rest of the world should follow suit

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reddit.com

 

[Ash735]

Latine is best from what I've heard from people, Latinx sounds like a Pokémon and yeah, has this "forced by white liberals" tag on it which most in the community don't side with.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

i cannot fathom people being against the fucking word just because "it sounds bad"

there a lot of fucking things that sound bad when you speak spanish, but THIS where they stand their ground.

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I mean this is our identification as a people that's being talked about.

It's at the core of our identities. It's a serious topic.

I would dislike for my people to be called Latinx by the vast majority of people but would be more than okay with Latine since it doesn't sound weird (but personally just prefer Hispanic or Latin American if I'm speaking English).

 

[Yams]

Monica Castillo and Shea Serrano and other fellow latinx writers and journalists I follow use it so to me they are closer to the authority on the subject matter. Gonna continue using it.

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Shea thinks Tex-Mex is better than regular Mexican food. You can't trust him anymore

 

[excelsiorlef]

The irony of using a word appropriated from black culture (woke) to white wash and frankly shit on another culture is really amusing.

 

[Gustaf]

I mean this is our identification as a people that's being talked about.

It's at the core of our identities. It's a serious topic.

I would dislike for my people to be called Latinx by the vast majority of people but would be more than okay with Latine since it doesn't sound weird (but personally just prefer Hispanic or Latin American if I'm speaking English).

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why tho?

because it sounds bad?, because is "Gramatically incorrect" because bla bla bla

WHY exactly?


just THAT? sounds weird? thats your excuse?

 

[Jroc]

I've only ever heard it on Era/Twitter.

Always sounded like something out of Newspeak to me.

 

[Yesterday]

i cannot fathom people being against the fucking word just because "it sounds bad"

there a lot of fucking things that sound bad when you speak spanish, but THIS where they stand their ground.

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I don't see many people using xe anymore and most including myself have moved to they them because the words already exist and sound better out loud. Its presumably the same with Latinx and Latine based on what people are expressing in this thread

 

[Coinspinner]

...is it pronounced "la-TINKS?"

Personally I prefer hispanic... I might even prefer to be called a slur to that.

 

[kiKs__]

Not even if somebody asks you to because it works for them?

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I would 100% respect their wishes and refer to them as such. I guess I shouldn't have said "never", my mistake.

 

[Ryaaan14]

I always thought it sounded like a Tekken character

 

[Rover]

But be real Latine won't change the results of the poll that drastically will it? You'll get what 90%? Maybe?

Because it's not just the literal world that's freaking a lot of people out is it?

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As I understand it, the word was specifically designed to not fit, as it's supposed to draw awareness to the problem with the gendered Spanish language in the first place. However, that doesn't indicate to me that it's meant to be the new word in everyday use. It's a statement piece, and it does seem pretty effective.

But people coming in just to say "latinx is a stupid word" come off like they are objecting to inclusivity in general, and that's shitty and not what rejecting the identity word should be about. Those people should reflect on what the inclusive language should be, or at least try to make their position clear.

It would probably take a while for "Latine" to catch on, too. "Latine" actually works with the language, though. There isn't a road block there in just trying to adopt the concept.

 

[Gustaf]

I don't see many people using xe anymore and most including myself have moved to they them because the words already exist and sound better out loud. Its presumably the same with Latinx and Latine based on what people are expressing in this thread

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its fine they prefer Latine or whatever,

but if people identify themselves with latinx, let them be

 

[Deleted member 2533]

Broad linguistic question here. So because the Spanish language has genders, you can't just say, "Latin," you have to say Latino or Latina for a man or a woman. What does Latino/a refer to? A race, a culture, a region? So if you're a black guy from Senegal, does a Spanish person say Negro/Negra or Senegaleso/Senegala, Africana/o? Are there gender-neutral terms for people that aren't Latin-American but who a Latin-American may be speaking about?

 

[Lunar Wolf]

why tho?

because it sounds bad?, because is "Gramatically incorrect" because bla bla bla

WHY exactly?


just THAT? sounds weird? thats your excuse?

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For a lot of people, it's different reasons.

Me, personally, yeah, I don't want to be called something that sounds ugly to my ears nor something that would make people think I was being stupid by calling myself that. I don't like Latino/Latina either which is why I tend to say Hispanic irl.

If people want to call themselves Latinx then that's up to them but don't call me Latinx.

...is it pronounced "la-TINKS?"

Personally I prefer hispanic... I might even prefer to be called a slur to that.

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It's supposed to be pronounced Latin-eks.

 

[excelsiorlef]

As I understand it, the word was specifically designed to not fit, as it's supposed to draw awareness to the problem with the gendered Spanish language in the first place. However, that doesn't indicate to me that it's meant to be the new word in everyday use. It's a statement piece, and it does seem pretty effective.

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Oh interesting. Thanks for that.