• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Project Phoenix scammed us? Creative Intelegent Art Fraud?

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,037
Exellus said:
You can buy the game after it releases. You don't have to buy a game before it even exists, by unproven startups.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think his point is if 100% of people followed that line of thought, great Kickstarter projects would never have come to pass.

I don't doubt at least some of them would have been able to secure funding without a crowdfunding platform, but not everything.
 
Belmont

Belmont

Member
Oct 27, 2017
292
I think I almost backed this. It sounds like I dodged a bullet.

Glad all I've backed is Bloodstained. I had a former co-worker who did a Kickstarter, got his money, then just flaked out and abandoned it. He hasn't posted an update in four years. His backers still post wanting to know what's going on with it. It's super sad.

Some people are just horrible business people and won't have their shit together no matter how much money you throw at them.
 

ThaNotoriousSOD

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
802
I made the mistake of backing a kickstarter game in H-hour and learned my lesson. Never again. It's really sad that these stories seem like they're coming out over and over again.
 
Theodran

Theodran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
927
Japan
Exellus said:
The lesson here is to never Kickstart anything and never pre-order anything.

Only buy good games, after they're released, and review well.

Everything else is setting yourself up for lies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I backed Torment, Pillars of Eternity, Double Fine Adventure, and Wasteland 2 and have been extremely pleased with the results of all of these projects. That being said, Project Phoenix had an aura of overselling itself from the start without anything really substantial to back it. The project leader being only known for music production and not game production should have been obvious warning signs, even if he had experience in video game music, because those are two different beasts altogether. Budgeting games is hard and Project Phoenix, as well as the broken promises of other Kickstarter projects (even those I mentioned!) should be enough proof for that.
 
XaviConcept

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,894
Otoshigami said:
someone made a response by the name of TINY METAL PROGRAMMER on KS comments.
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...nix-japans-indie-rpg-feat-aaa-talent/comments
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sounds believable except when he keeps plugging TINY METAL every other sentence.

Whole situation is a mess. The developer may cery well be getting screwed here but they havent exactly earned the consumers trust on this one.

I have seen many a developer sabotage their project on their way out the door though, so this is tricky.
 
JigglesBunny

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,042
Chicago
ChasePettit said:
Tiny Metal looked pretty good, but it's hard to support it if the content of this post is true. Considering that I don't think Project Phoenix has ever shown anything aside from concept art though, it's not all that hard to believe that this allegation may be true.

Extremely sucks that there are people out there like this, and it definitely does damage the entire industry. Jason Schreier already wrote about Project Phoenix damaging the industry once this year and I guess he's going to end up doing it again if this story checks out.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So Project Phoenix was announced in 2012 and to date, five years later, after numerous vague and half-baked status updates, all that was ever shown was concept art?

The post in the OP is hardly a warning call then, red flags should have been flying for years.
 
OuterLimits

OuterLimits

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
987
Granjinha said:
It's not "a few". The huge majority turn out well, and only a small select few that had a ton of red flags prior to attaining their goal that sometimes go wrong.

Nothing even close to "gambling".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You do realize I wrote "quite a few" not "a few" right? "Quite a few" means a significant number. Doesn't change the fact that some kickstarters don't work out(for many different reasons ) and you ended up wasting money.
 
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,941
Otoshigami said:
i just see it as a NAME TITLE but i dont think it was intentional or some hidden ads on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm still totally undecided on this. I'm not going to claim that they're plant because of capitalization, that'd be goofy. But as soon as I look at the posts, my eyes are immediately drawn to the recurring caps lock words that are splattered all over them. It's feels really weird to read.
 
Last edited:
Raybunzy

Raybunzy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
Dodged the bullet on this one. Their KS smelled funny. It's quite frustarting for people that supported them and been waiting for years. Some legal countermeasures should be put in place.
 
m43lstr0m

m43lstr0m

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
759
So will we still be able to purchase Tiny Metal or what? It was just about out. Shame even if it does make it out, I highly doubt there will be any patch support if it's needed.

Kinda joking. Would only think about buying if it's really good. Maybe.
 
RiamuFG

RiamuFG

Director at Chuhai Labs
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
81
Kyoto, Japan
I know Tariq. He's a pretty great guy and extremely passionate about games. Although I'm not sure as to what has happened, this definitely won't have been a petty way of getting back at a company over something. This definitely sounds like something, Tariq has thought about and thinks needs highlighting. Hopefully will get to chat to him about it soon.
 
Via_Purifico

Via_Purifico

Member
Oct 25, 2017
351
Considering there's been more than one account on knowing the guy I am more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
 
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,941
Just to confirm, was it already known that Project Phoenix and Tiny Metal were connected? I did a very brief google of the two names together, and what I found were the comments on the Kickstarter, a random post from the old site saying that Tiny Metal looked like a scam liked Project Phoenix (no connection implied), and a few other things like that post.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,037
L Thammy said:
Just to confirm, was it already known that Project Phoenix and Tiny Metal were connected? I did a very brief google of the two names together, and what I found were the comments on the Kickstarter, a random post from the old site saying that Tiny Metal looked like a scam liked Project Phoenix (no connection implied), and a few other things like that post.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Project Phoenix's website in May (or thereabouts) hinted that they were working on another game. Around September/TGS Yura did indeed start posting more about Tiny Metal publicly on social media and the like.

Tiny Metal does indeed look great, but I personally have doubts that it'd come anywhere close to salvaging Project Phoenix barring some kind of miracle/reboot.
 
TheSporkWithin

TheSporkWithin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
404
Japan
L Thammy said:
Just to confirm, was it already known that Project Phoenix and Tiny Metal were connected? I did a very brief google of the two names together, and what I found were the comments on the Kickstarter, a random post from the old site saying that Tiny Metal looked like a scam liked Project Phoenix (no connection implied), and a few other things like that post.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It was definitely news to me that the two were related. I'd been aware of Tiny Metal since at least the spring, but I didn't realize that the team was the same as Project Phoenix. Seems like the project lead is at least a somewhat known figure, so it should have been easy enough for any games journalists to put the two projects together but somehow nobody seemed to do so (think emoji). It's completely unsurprising that this isn't something they'd be actively advertising, as Project Phoenix has turned out to be more of an albatross, and they wouldn't want that hung on their necks in the public eye. (Seriously, how the hell did nobody at any of the outlets make that connection?)
 
OP
OP
Aurizen

Aurizen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,592
Philly
TheSporkWithin said:
It was definitely news to me that the two were related. I'd been aware of Tiny Metal since at least the spring, but I didn't realize that the team was the same as Project Phoenix. Seems like the project lead is at least a somewhat known figure, so it should have been easy enough for any games journalists to put the two projects together but somehow nobody seemed to do so (think emoji). It's completely unsurprising that this isn't something they'd be actively advertising, as Project Phoenix has turned out to be more of an albatross, and they wouldn't want that hung on their necks in the public eye. (Seriously, how the hell did nobody at any of the outlets make that connection?)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wow, I hope that isn't true. They could very well recycle loads of the game and use that in Project Phoenix and then it wouldn't be as unique as we hoped.
 
thetrin

thetrin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,603
Atlanta, GA
Exellus said:
You can buy the game after it releases. You don't have to buy a game before it even exists, by unproven startups.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Except that if you never preorder or kickstart anything, and everyone takes that lesson to heart, amazing games like Thimbleweed Park never exist. So yeah, it sounds like a great lesson in hindsight, but doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

Death Penalty said:
If appropriate, let us know what happens.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'll let you guys know what I can. It's likely I won't be able to say shit.
 
Wulfric

Wulfric

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,963
th16nTt.png


Uhh, well this is an interesting turn of events.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,037
TheSporkWithin said:
It was definitely news to me that the two were related. I'd been aware of Tiny Metal since at least the spring, but I didn't realize that the team was the same as Project Phoenix. Seems like the project lead is at least a somewhat known figure, so it should have been easy enough for any games journalists to put the two projects together but somehow nobody seemed to do so (think emoji). It's completely unsurprising that this isn't something they'd be actively advertising, as Project Phoenix has turned out to be more of an albatross, and they wouldn't want that hung on their necks in the public eye. (Seriously, how the hell did nobody at any of the outlets make that connection?)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Tiny Metal is fronted by Hiroki Kikuta, not Hiroaki Yura.

edit: See http:///2016/10/12/secret-mana-composer-reveals-advance-wars-spiritual-successor-tiny-metal/
 
TheSporkWithin

TheSporkWithin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
404
Japan
Falk said:
Tiny Metal is fronted by Hiroki Kikuta, not Hiroaki Yura.

edit: See http:///2016/10/12/secret-mana-composer-reveals-advance-wars-spiritual-successor-tiny-metal/
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The tiny Metal site has ©2017 HIROAKI YURA at the bottom.

EDIT: He also claimed the project in the post where he gave Project Phoenix backers access to the Tiny Metal beta/demo, as quoted here: Project Phoenix scammed us? Creative Intelegent Art Fraud?

EDIT2: Tiny Metal is mentioned in his Japanese twitter bio, but not his English one.
 
Last edited:
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,941
I do appreciate Tiny Metal Programmer responding to us peacefully, even if it is unusual.

TheSporkWithin said:
Project Phoenix doesn't have a known team, AFAIK, but the project lead, Hiroaki Yura, is absolutely the same for both Tiny Metal and Project Phoenix.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So this seems like they weren't hiding the connection, then? Even if they weren't actively promoting it (which, I mean, I totally understand).
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,037
TheSporkWithin said:
The tiny Metal site has ©2017 HIROAKI YURA at the bottom.

EDIT: He also claimed the project in the post where he gave Project Phoenix backers access to the Tiny Metal beta/demo, as quoted here: Project Phoenix scammed us? Creative Intelegent Art Fraud?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Right, no, I'm not saying Yura isn't involved. If you read the post I quoted, I was responding to the notion of 'how come people didn't instantly link the projects together'?

Tiny Metal was initially marketed as having not much to do with Project Phoenix, except perhaps in terms of "we're a bunch of japanese veterans" and Tomoki Miyoshi (bless him) doing the music.
 
TheSporkWithin

TheSporkWithin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
404
Japan
Falk said:
Right, no, I'm not saying Yura isn't involved. I was responding to the notion of 'how come people didn't instantly link the projects together'?

Tiny Metal was initially marketed as having not much to do with Project Phoenix, except perhaps in terms of "we're a bunch of japanese veterans" and Tomoki Miyoshi (bless him) doing the music.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, looking at it now it seems like they may have been intentionally obfuscating things with western outlets... (see what I added to that post about his twitters) ((this is exactly the sort of thing that journalists are supposed to be looking for))
 
Pooroomoo

Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
Via_Purifico said:
Considering there's been more than one account on knowing the guy I am more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Some of the best con men have lots and lots of friends, are charming and people would vouch for them blindly. Not saying he is one, but several accounts of knowing him means absolutely nothing, just that he knows his way around people.
 
ffvorax

ffvorax

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,855
I backed PP too, and lost most of my believes after all the delays... that said, until we have solid proof of it, I prefer not to believe to accusations. Sure this should be investigated after all this time and these things written, but too often on the internet peoples talks shit because they know how to make people angry.
 
gigaslash

gigaslash

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,122
Dang. I sort of said "bye" to the 50 bucks I pledged years ago, but still, dang.
 
kirbyfan407

kirbyfan407

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,099
TheSporkWithin said:
It was definitely news to me that the two were related. I'd been aware of Tiny Metal since at least the spring, but I didn't realize that the team was the same as Project Phoenix. Seems like the project lead is at least a somewhat known figure, so it should have been easy enough for any games journalists to put the two projects together but somehow nobody seemed to do so (think emoji). It's completely unsurprising that this isn't something they'd be actively advertising, as Project Phoenix has turned out to be more of an albatross, and they wouldn't want that hung on their necks in the public eye. (Seriously, how the hell did nobody at any of the outlets make that connection?)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm a backer, and I'm pretty sure the emails I've been getting for Project Phoenix have been mentioning their connection. I'll see if I can find anything in my inbox.

EDIT: Based on my quick look, it seems like the development of a smaller side game was first mentioned on April 23, 2017, and that TINY METAL was first mentioned by name on August 15th.
 
Last edited:
Pooroomoo

Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
duckroll said:
Damn man, that's not a nice thing to say about Hiroaki Yura. :(
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Lol.

He (Hiroaki this time :-)) did come up with the current game though at least. Clearly there was serious mismanagement of Project Phoenix, I'm just not at all certain it was intentional.

To me the other guy (not Hiroaki...) does sound like a disgruntled (full of himself) person out for revenge. I guess time will tell.
 
Last edited:
TDLink

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
Is the Tiny Metal delay really because of this? Or just that something last minute was discovered, preventing release? The game hasn't had complete info on the eshop like other games do that are about to release. And I feel like it wouldn't get pulled a day in advance just because its developer is worried about a controversy most people aren't even aware of.
 
TheSporkWithin

TheSporkWithin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
404
Japan
They're based in Japan, it was presumably supposed to have launched here within the next 16 hours or so.

They had a "seven days until launch" tweet last week, which pretty strongly implies that they thought all systems were go for a launch tomorrow. This is really weird.
 
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,941
TheSporkWithin said:
They're based in Japan, it was presumably supposed to have launched here within the next 16 hours or so.

They had a "seven days until launch" tweet last week, which pretty strongly implies that they thought all systems were go for a launch tomorrow. This is really weird.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

On one hand, I genuinely don't see how this would lead to a delay even if it's true. On the other hand, that is some suspicious timing, yikes. Maybe they want to address this and are pushing the date over so that launch isn't dragged down by these rumours? It's the only thing I can think of. Weird is a good word for all of this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.