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When will the first 'next gen' console arrive?

  • H2 2019

    Votes: 638 14.1%
  • H1 2020

    Votes: 724 16.0%
  • H2 2020

    Votes: 2,813 62.2%
  • H1 2021

    Votes: 141 3.1%
  • H2 2021

    Votes: 208 4.6%

  • Total voters
    4,524
  • Poll closed .

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,242
Most ppl seem to think 24gb gddr6 is realistic.
With a few thinking there crazy and its going to be 16gb.
I wish the ram could be as predictable as The GPU and CPU.
I'm not convinced at all by the logic and the argument for only 16GB.
Comparison with high-end PC GPUs not really having that much RAM ignores the PC's DDR4 system RAM and the fact that PC ports even if they have better assets, are still dealing with stuff that originated on consoles with 5 gigs dedicated for games.

Both Sony and MS will do their best to avoid split pools of RAM. And when you factor in the inevitable asset upgrade, the OS and all UI elements are 4K, the game recording at 4K (possibly @60fps), having more multi-tasking than ever before, etc etc... I just don't see how 16 gigs are enough.

24 is the minimum and most likely for me. 32GB would be nice, but I'm not going to bet on it.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
I'm not convinced at all by the logic and the argument for only 16GB.
Comparison with high-end PC GPUs not really having that much RAM ignores the PC's DDR4 system RAM and the fact that PC ports even if they have better assets, are still dealing with stuff that originated on consoles with 5 gigs dedicated for games.

Both Sony and MS will do their best to avoid split pools of RAM. And when you factor in the inevitable asset upgrade, the OS and all UI elements are 4K, the game recording at 4K (possibly @60fps), having more multi-tasking than ever before, etc etc... I just don't see how 16 gigs are enough.

24 is the minimum and most likely for me. 32GB would be nice, but I'm not going to bet on it.
not for $400, not for $500 ether. its 16, maaaaaaybe 24, no way 32.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
It's unusual that we're so sure what will be in the boxes, debating relativity tiny differences.

I hope there's a couple of cureveballs leaked/announced to really get these types of threads going. I love all this kind of talk especially hearing from the more knowledgeable posters.
The last time Sony threw a curve ball with consoles, it was THE CELL. That massively hurt the brand and also killed backwards compatibility. Worse, it made third party game development difficult.
Since backwards compatibility is agreed by most here to be a near certainty for PS5, and no-brainer for Nextbox, by default then hardware curveballs are contrary to that.
Sony had learned that developers want easy to use hardware. They were rewarded with the PS4 and not going to backtrack on that.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
But every time you argued for that, you're basing it off high RAM retail prices at the time. Meaningless in ~2 years' time, even more meaningless for a multi-million order.
gamers nexus https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3032-vega-56-cost-of-hbm2-and-necessity-to-use-it says ddr5 is around $8.50 for 8gbs. my guess ddr6, since its new and likely to have worse yealds, will be 10 to 12 per 8 gbs. 32gbs would be between $40 and 48, or about 1/8 the cost of the whole thing at a msrp $400.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
But every time you argued for that, you're basing it off high RAM retail prices at the time. Meaningless in ~2 years' time, even more meaningless for a multi-million order.

+1

People need to understand, they are buying memory in very big quantity directly to memory maker. And for PS4 memory was the costlier component not inside a shop. Last time no one thinks 8GB was possible. I think we will have 32Gb of RAM inside next gen consoles. The problem for 24Gb of RAm is the 384 bits bus expensive and not ideal for shrinking the process.

Same thing for CPU and GPU, they pay a big amount upfront for using AMD technology and some royalties for each console sold. The other cost are manufacturing cost and cost of other components but they buy directly to hardware maker and in big quantity. You have economy of scale effect going on and manufacturing improvement (yield) and process shrinking helping decrease cost during console life.
 
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chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
gamers nexus https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3032-vega-56-cost-of-hbm2-and-necessity-to-use-it says ddr5 is around $8.50 for 8gbs. my guess ddr6, since its new and likely to have worse yealds, will be 10 to 12 per 8 gbs. 32gbs would be between $40 and 48, or about 1/8 the cost of the whole thing at a msrp $400.

PS4 estimated cost of RAM was 88 dollars, it was the most expensive element inside the console.

http://news.ihsmarkit.com/press-rel...-breakeven-point-playstation-4-hardware-costs
 
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M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,242
gamers nexus https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3032-vega-56-cost-of-hbm2-and-necessity-to-use-it says ddr5 is around $8.50 for 8gbs. my guess ddr6, since its new and likely to have worse yealds, will be 10 to 12 per 8 gbs. 32gbs would be between $40 and 48, or about 1/8 the cost of the whole thing at a msrp $400.
Is that supposed to be high? I've done a quick search for PS4 BOM:

Precious memory

The cost increase for the DRAM is even more remarkable, at an estimated $88.00, up from just $9.80 for the fourth-generation PlayStation 3, i.e. the CECH-2001A. Note that the $9.80 total does not include the DRAM that was mounted directly to the Nvidia processor in the PlayStation 3 that IHS analyzed in 2009. This cost increase is due to the PlayStation 4's adoption of advanced Graphics DRAM (GDRAM) GDDR5.
According to Engadget, the RAM for the PS4 at launch was estimated to cost $88
So if you're arguing that about 10% of the total cost of the PS5 will go to memory alone and that's too high, then I think you must agree that it's not really out of the realm of possibility considering Sony possibly spent twice as much for the PS4.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,824
Australia
I thought about bringing this conversation back, but I didn't find the right time, so I'll just post it now:

Microsoft taking $126 hit per Xbox 360


Sony taking big hit on each PS3 sold; Xbox 360 in the black

isuppli-ps3.png






After Nearly Four Years, The PS3 Finally Turns A Profit


I don't think we will see something like the PS3 with the new PlayStation... though, what about Xbox? Would it be worth to creating a very expensive machine, selling it at a big loss... but maybe getting part of their previous install base back, getting the early adopter crowd and releasing their console one year to half a year before the other part do? around 400-499$ as the max price tag of course; the mass crowd couldn't care less about a new console at a >500$ price even if it cooked meal for you, washed your clothes... wait, I would buy one if it did that.

"iSuppli's teardown report shows three big cost centers for the PS3. Topping the list is the Reality Synthesizer from NVIDIA, which handles the PS3's graphics. According to iSuppli, Sony's cost for that chip is $129. Sony's decision to outfit the PS3 with Blu-ray costs $125 per unit, while the Cell CPU from IBM runs $89."

Wow, I always thought the GPU was cheaper than the Cell. Makes me wonder what a PS3 with 2 Cells and 512MB of unified XDR would've been like, at least in comparison to the PS3 as it was.

And I agree that we won't see something like the PS3 with PS5... though, a $600 console sold for $499 would not be like the PS3. :D
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Definitely disagree with this. Next-Gen will be won won/lost with games. Services are great and Microsoft has the edge on Sony in this regard. But as we see, month after month, games are what drive consoles sales. I don't understand people forget when we see it every single generation.

honestly, MS don't have the edge on services. Both offer a similar range of services, and both have unique features compared to the other.
- both have a subscription service offering access to a rotating catalog of games.
- both have a paid online service
- both restrict different things if you don't have paid online (MS don't let you play F2P games. Sony don't let you upload cloud saves)
- both let you take screenshots and videoclips and share easily
- MS allows crossplay
- Sony has shareplay
 

Mr. Pointy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,141
You know, 16GB of HBM3 sounds like a good bet. That's only two chips and it can probably shrink to one by the time a slim console gets done.

32GB would only need four chips.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
honestly, MS don't have the edge on services. Both offer a similar range of services, and both have unique features compared to the other.
- both have a subscription service offering access to a rotating catalog of games.
- both have a paid online service
- both restrict different things if you don't have paid online (MS don't let you play F2P games. Sony don't let you upload cloud saves)
- both let you take screenshots and videoclips and share easily
- MS allows crossplay
- Sony has shareplay

EA Access, Backwards compatibility, Gamepass?
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
You know, 16GB of HBM3 sounds like a good bet. That's only two chips and it can probably shrink to one by the time a slim console gets done.

No if they use HBM3 no reason to have 16GB, it will be 32Gb like if they use GDDR6. I think they will use GDDR6 for a question of timing, too early for it. HBM3 is much better for integration, heat, take smaller space but too early and maybe too costly before a die schrink. I hope they will not go crazy with OS and app RAM Allocation and stay with the 3Gb like PS4,PS4 Pro, Xbox One and Xbox One X.
 
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MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
EA Access, Backwards compatibility, Gamepass?

Well EA access is a third party offering but fair enough. BC is not 100% but infinitely more than PS4 (knew I'd missed some). Gamepass I'd included in the 'subscription' - people seem to think PS Now hasn't existed for several years and apart from the (recent) 'all first party games day one' from MS, they seem similar.

No if they use HBM3 no reason to have 16GB, it will be 32Gb like if they use GDDR6. I think they will use GDDR6 for a question of timing, too early for it. HBM3 is much better for integration, heat, take smaller space but too early and maybe too costly before a die schrink. I hope they will not go crazy with OS and app RAM Allocation and stay with the 3Gb like PS4 and PS4 Pro.

Hoping they keep the existing OSes mostly, and Ram use doesn't go up much. Maybe Sony will expand what they did with PS pro and split the OS ram pool - may be possible to put a lot more of it in a cheaper separate pool of ram and keep the more expensive GDDR6 to a minimum. If they can keep it to 2-3GB, I think 16GB would be borderline (would leave 13-14GB for games), and 24GB would be a better amount
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Well EA access is a third party offering but fair enough. BC is not 100% but infinitely more than PS4 (knew I'd missed some). Gamepass I'd included in the 'subscription' - people seem to think PS Now hasn't existed for several years and apart from the (recent) 'all first party games day one' from MS, they seem similar.



Hoping they keep the existing OSes mostly, and Ram use doesn't go up much. Maybe Sony will expand what they did with PS pro and split the OS ram pool - may be possible to put a lot more of it in a cheaper separate pool of ram and keep the more expensive GDDR6 to a minimum. If they can keep it to 2-3GB, I think 16GB would be borderline (would leave 13-14GB for games), and 24GB would be a better amount

PS Now is similar to gamepass? Not in my view. Gamepass has new 1st party releases day and date and isn't streaming based - you play a native copy of the game. PSNow is a streaming service for older games......
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
PS Now is similar to gamepass? Not in my view. Gamepass has new 1st party releases day and date and isn't streaming based - you play a native copy of the game. PSNow is a streaming service for older games......

plenty of ps4 games on ps now (but not many big titles perhaps). Game pass only just did the day and date thing - plenty of first party games still missing from it. Yes its a better service/value.

I just find it odd that MS seems to have carved out this 'services are naturally better' and more recently 'of course they'll have the most powerful hardware' based on a sentence in a press conference.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
PS Now is similar to gamepass? Not in my view. Gamepass has new 1st party releases day and date and isn't streaming based - you play a native copy of the game. PSNow is a streaming service for older games......

There is a rumor the PSnow will allow a download option. For 1rst party release I doubt it will the case for Sony because they aren't too much into GAAS game. It can probably work with a game like GT Sport or an AA single player game but not God of War too expensive to make.

EDIT: Choosing between Sony story driven first party games and Gamepass, the choice is very easy for me. Games are more important than services.
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
Regarding memory, I'm just not sure if 32GB and a 256bit bus is good enough, when looking at memory bandwidths. Here are the numbers for memory chips with different speeds:

14Gb/s chips: 448GB/s

16Gb/s chips: 512GB/s

18Gb/s chips: 576GB/s

But what is actually required? If we look at AMD Vega 64, it's memory has a bandwidth of 483.8 GB/s. From what I have read, Vega performance is heavily tied to memory performance, so you probably can't go lower. And Zen (1) seems to peak at ~50 GB/s. Which probably means you want to have at least 484 + 50 = 534 GB/s memory bandwidth.

Looking at PS4, from what I remember, it's effective memory bandwidth was actually lower than the peak value, especially when you have CPU and GPU accessing memory at the same time. Which could mean that you want to have even higher bandwidth numbers than just the sum of each part's peak values.

So if we look at the numbers above, it seems 14GB/s and 16GB/s chips won't be fast enough, leaving only 18GB/s chips. And not sure if that leaves enough room for when you have to deal with inefficiencies and parallel access (or if the PS5 GPU is more powerful than Vega 64).

With 24GB and a 384bit bus, those numbers look of course much better, even with "slow" 14 GB/s memory chips, leaving plenty of room:

14Gb/s chips: 672GB/s

16Gb/s chips: 768GB/s

18Gb/s chips: 864GB/s

In the end I guess it's probably a matter of which costs less in the long run: Using a 384bit bus with lower specced memory chips vs a 256bit bus with higher specced memory chips. And also, if those massive bandwidth improvements of a 384bit bus are more useful to developers than 8GB additional RAM.
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
Regarding memory, it's worth taking a step back and thinking about what's going into it and how quickly that data is needed. We also have alot of people predicting we won't move to M.2 SSDs either because of cost.

I can't imagine 16gb of total memory alone and a SATA III HD are going to help either console stand out above the X1. I can see plenty of cases for 8K textures for 4K screen resolution. Not to mention the desire for more types of textures per object for more accurate sub-surface detail & higher res shadows. Then throw in the desire to track 3D data in 3d textures or voxel grids (dynamic GI, weather systems). And to that memory filled up will take too long. And we're going to want to track more dynamic objects, store more anims, etc etc.

Howver, I could see both the 16gb and SATA IIII working IF the OS had its own memory pool so the main memory is only dedicated to the currently running game (seriously, what are Sony & MS doing with 3 whole gbs???) and there is a pool of NAND to house common data of some of your most recently played titles (the original XB did this pretty well).
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
There is a rumor the PSnow will allow a download option. For 1rst party release I doubt it will the case for Sony because they aren't too much into GAAS game. It can probably work with a game like GT Sport or an AA single player game but not God of War too expensive to make.

EDIT: Choosing between Sony story driven first party games and Gamepass, the choice is very easy for me. Games are more important than services.

Microsoft say that gamepass is increasing the number of game sales...so it could work potentially for every game out there.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Microsoft say that gamepass is increasing the number of game sales...so it could work potentially for every game out there.

We will see when they have a really expensive first party single player story driven game without online component if it is viable economically. Before this it is just theory. Maybe it is valid for Uncharted or The Last of Us but not the case for God of War...
 

THEVOID

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,840
We will see when they have a really expensive first party single player story driven game without online component if it is viable economically. Before this it is just theory. Maybe it is valid for Uncharted or The Last of Us but not the case for God of War...

Has nothing to do with selling a game. Still counts as a sale no matter what kind of game it is.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Regarding memory, it's worth taking a step back and thinking about what's going into it and how quickly that data is needed. We also have alot of people predicting we won't move to M.2 SSDs either because of cost.

I can't imagine 16gb of total memory alone and a SATA III HD are going to help either console stand out above the X1. I can see plenty of cases for 8K textures for 4K screen resolution. Not to mention the desire for more types of textures per object for more accurate sub-surface detail & higher res shadows. Then throw in the desire to track 3D data in 3d textures or voxel grids (dynamic GI, weather systems). And to that memory filled up will take too long. And we're going to want to track more dynamic objects, store more anims, etc etc.

Howver, I could see both the 16gb and SATA IIII working IF the OS had its own memory pool so the main memory is only dedicated to the currently running game (seriously, what are Sony & MS doing with 3 whole gbs???) and there is a pool of NAND to house common data of some of your most recently played titles (the original XB did this pretty well).

I think 16 would be 'ok' but not 'great', if dedicated to games. I don't think it could be though - you'd at least need a small amount reserved of the fast stuff

1X is around 9GB for games? So 16GB would be almost double.

24 with 384 bit bus sounds more comfortable - both for size and bandwidth to service the larger GPU
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
There is no way a portion of a gamepass sub is going to be equal to royalties from a $60 game purchase.

presumably it is a similar business model to PS+/PS Now - you're looking at incremental revenue from poeple that wouldn't have bought the game at full price, and offsetting against potential losses from those that *would* have bought it but instead took advantage of the sub.

MS First party stuff day one is obviously a loss leader to attract people into the ecosystem
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,290
Money from a few remasters/remakes is nothing compared to locking users to your ecosystem.

PS4 users easily migrating to PS5 with their game libraries and all other investments (games as a service etc) is vital for Sony.

Anything alse would be a 599$ level of a mistake.


Yeah we all agree on that, but none of us would risk let's say a hand that they won't do it :P
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,844
Regarding memory, I'm just not sure if 32GB and a 256bit bus is good enough, when looking at memory bandwidths. Here are the numbers for memory chips with different speeds:

14Gb/s chips: 448GB/s

16Gb/s chips: 512GB/s

18Gb/s chips: 576GB/s

But what is actually required? If we look at AMD Vega 64, it's memory has a bandwidth of 483.8 GB/s. From what I have read, Vega performance is heavily tied to memory performance, so you probably can't go lower. And Zen (1) seems to peak at ~50 GB/s. Which probably means you want to have at least 484 + 50 = 534 GB/s memory bandwidth.

Looking at PS4, from what I remember, it's effective memory bandwidth was actually lower than the peak value, especially when you have CPU and GPU accessing memory at the same time. Which could mean that you want to have even higher bandwidth numbers than just the sum of each part's peak values.

So if we look at the numbers above, it seems 14GB/s and 16GB/s chips won't be fast enough, leaving only 18GB/s chips. And not sure if that leaves enough room for when you have to deal with inefficiencies and parallel access (or if the PS5 GPU is more powerful than Vega 64).

With 24GB and a 384bit bus, those numbers look of course much better, even with "slow" 14 GB/s memory chips, leaving plenty of room:

14Gb/s chips: 672GB/s

16Gb/s chips: 768GB/s

18Gb/s chips: 864GB/s

In the end I guess it's probably a matter of which costs less in the long run: Using a 384bit bus with lower specced memory chips vs a 256bit bus with higher specced memory chips. And also, if those massive bandwidth improvements of a 384bit bus are more useful to developers than 8GB additional RAM.
32GB GDDR6 using 18Gb/s chips with 576 GB/s bandwidth would be 2.65x faster than Pro GDDR5 bandwidth (217.5 GB/s).

Pro GPU is 4.2 tflops so: 4.2 * 2.65 = 11.13 Tflops. If they add more bandwidth saving techniques they already included in Pro GPU, that ram setup could be well enough to feed a 12-14 Tflops GPU.
 

THEVOID

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,840
No it is not working like this. The Gamepass subscription need to be massive if your game will not be 10+ millions because it is inside the subscription.

EDIT: And it is not only for God of war but every single player driven story game Sony will release.

Read again what you quoted. Zappy just said that Game Pass has increased game sales. Meaning a game is sold. You're reply had nothing to do with that. And what off on a tangent about single player games.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
60,972
Xbox One is gonna be rebranded in Xbox Infinite. Its in line of console being supported with BC and the the old gens being gone.
And Halo Infinite is a day one launch title when the new console arrives. Starting the new name really off.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,290
What I don't like with this kind of thinking is that you take people for idiots. You wouln't buy a PlayStation 4 for 150$ after PlayStation 5 launch ; I wouldn't either. No one here would do that. So you thinking there is a public elsewhere and there is probably one, but it's a very small market.

We already had this debate ; we can reuse the same arguments, but I won't convince you and you won't convince me, never mind. We'll see ; one of us will be right.

But the $150 console is not for us or for Era.

You seem to ignore that there are millions of casuals out there, millions of people that are hard pressed for money and cannot adford a $400 sku but can afford a $150 one, millions of people with small kids to whom a slim PS4 would be the perfect entry point, etc
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,135
Somewhere South
Probably Xbox Zero. Or Xbox Omega. Or Xbox Citrus.

But the $150 console is not for us or for Era.

You seem to ignore that there are millions of casuals out there, millions of people that are hard pressed for money and cannot adford a $400 sku but can afford a $150 one, millions of people with small kids to whom a slim PS4 would be the perfect entry point, etc

40m people bought a PS2 after the PS3 had launched. All idiots, apparently. The myopia is real.
 
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chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Read again what you quoted. Zappy just said that Game Pass has increased game sales. Meaning a game is sold. You're reply had nothing to do with that. And what off on a tangent about single player games.

Will it be the same thing for Sony? This is not sure at all and we have no example with big single player AAA stoy driven game with sales potential of 10+ millions but maybe I miss some Microsoft release.

Maybe the player will take one month of gamepass and not buy the title. This is not a GAAS title.
 

nextJin

Member
Mar 17, 2018
455
Georgia
I don't see how folks are saying 24-32 GBs.

I'm thinking 12 or maybe 16. Memory is not a limiting factor with compression techniques. I'd rather the brunt of cost come from the APU.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,824
Australia
But the $150 console is not for us or for Era.

You seem to ignore that there are millions of casuals out there, millions of people that are hard pressed for money and cannot adford a $400 sku but can afford a $150 one, millions of people with small kids to whom a slim PS4 would be the perfect entry point, etc

Thank you. The "every console buyer is literally an Era poster" thing is too common.

40m people bought a PS2 after the PS3 had launched. All idiots, apparently.

The PSone (specifically the new model launched in June 2000, way after the PS2 had been announced) also apparently sold like 28 million units before being discontinued in 2006, despite the PS2 having almost total PS1 BC. So many idiots in the console buying sector, amirite.
 

THEVOID

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,840
Will it be the same thing for Sony? This is not sure at all and we have no example with big single player AAA stoy driven game with sales potential of 10+ millions but maybe I miss some Microsoft release.

Maybe the player will take one month of gamepass and not buy the title. This is not a GAAS title.

No idea what you are rambling about. What difference does it make if it's gaas or not? It's still on gamepass and it's still selling outside of gamepass.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
No idea what you are rambling about.

What works for Microsoft will maybe not work for Sony. They don't do the same type of game. And saying a Gamepass type of service is better from an economical point of view for a single player story driven game selling at least 8 millions is not the same than GAAS game like the one available on Microsoft first party gamepass for the moment. There is no game without online component as huge as God of War on the services... Using example of Microsoft for saying how the same type of service will work is pointless before we have an example of a huge single player story driven game where the sales will increase because of Gamepass.
 

THEVOID

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,840
What works for Microsoft will maybe not work for Sony. They don't do the same type of game. And saying a Gamepass type of service is better from an economical point of view for a single player story driven game selling at least 8 millions is not the same than GAAS game like the one available on Microsoft first party gamepass. There is no game without online component as huge as God of War on the services...

I don't think you understand the first post you replied to. He said a games are selling outside of gamepass. Or gamepass is not hurting game sales. That's it.

And I don't agree with the point you are trying to make. XGP has to have all types of games to be successful.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,052
The last time Sony threw a curve ball with consoles, it was THE CELL. That massively hurt the brand and also killed backwards compatibility. Worse, it made third party game development difficult.
Since backwards compatibility is agreed by most here to be a near certainty for PS5, and no-brainer for Nextbox, by default then hardware curveballs are contrary to that.
Sony had learned that developers want easy to use hardware. They were rewarded with the PS4 and not going to backtrack on that.

I didn't mean in terms of GPU. Thinking more fast loading solutions or a sim card slot or something not discussed so far.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I don't think you understand the first post you replied to. He said a games are selling outside of gamepass. Or gamepass is not hurting game sales. That's it.

And I don't agree with the point you are trying to make. XGP has to have all types of games to be successful.

I understand but where is the proof it will be the same for a story driven AAA game sellling 8+ millions. For the moment there is no proof. We will wait if Sony do the same thing or Microsoft launch a game as huge as God of War for example day one on Gamepass and decide to give sales number.

Before this we don't know if it is interesting from an economical point of view. If some sales are lost you need many subscription to be profitable.
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
That would be assuming the PS5 is a small upgrade over the PS4 Pro, otherwise why would the PS5 only be $100 more? With that said the PS4 Pro would be easier to remove out of the equation because it is rumored to only be 20-25% of all PS4 sales.

The actual costs are not what's important here - they're the assumptions on my side.

The question is does the PS4Pro make sense if you have a cheap PS4 and a full price, fully BC PS5?

I don't see the point in supporting a middle platform that only offers a marginal upgrade over the base PS4, especially if both those platforms are due to go through a node shrink to bring their costs down.
 

Fatmanp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,438
presumably it is a similar business model to PS+/PS Now - you're looking at incremental revenue from poeple that wouldn't have bought the game at full price, and offsetting against potential losses from those that *would* have bought it but instead took advantage of the sub.

MS First party stuff day one is obviously a loss leader to attract people into the ecosystem


Agreed. MS will be hoping that their investment in first party will attract more suitors to the Xbox brand and the games are of a quality level that would justify a price increase on XGP. The end game for MS could be that they can charge $200 per year for XGP, $60 for XBL and sell their consoles at a loss or a much lower than normal price to grow its consumer base. I do feel that eventually XGP and XBL will be merged but now is not the right time for that.
 

Alandring

Banned
Feb 2, 2018
1,841
Switzerland
But the $150 console is not for us or for Era.

You seem to ignore that there are millions of casuals out there, millions of people that are hard pressed for money and cannot adford a $400 sku but can afford a $150 one, millions of people with small kids to whom a slim PS4 would be the perfect entry point, etc
But it's not a choice between a PlayStation 4 at 400$ or at 150$. The PlayStation 4 was at 200$ last black friday and you can already find a second hand PlayStation 4 for 150$ (sometimes with games). New consumers won't appear magically after the PlayStation 5 launch. If they are interested by the PlayStation 4, either they will already have bought one, either they will wait for a price cut of the PlayStation 5.

40m people bought a PS2 after the PS3 had launched. All idiots, apparently. The myopia is real.
No, they are juste people living in 2006. The last exemples we have (PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and 3DS) had all a significant decline in sales after the launch of new gen.