Didn't Ati make "exclusive" unified shaders for xbox 360 gpu?
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PS5 and next Xbox launch speculation - Post E3 2018
- Thread starter Phoenix Splash
- Start date
Didn't Ati make "exclusive" unified shaders for xbox 360 gpu?
I thought they rolled that into their next line of GPUs and it was only "exclusive" because the 360 came out before those cards were ready?
Ah,so it was timed exclusive? :) I forgot,it was so long ago...
Haha yeah,timed exclusives are the worst ;)
If i remember well Xenos was pretty good gpu back in 2006,much better then that Nvidia thing Sony put in PS3.
You could say that but in the end I think the more important decision was to have one shared memory pool in the 360 compared to 2 memory pools in the PS3. Ever made the mistake to do 2 partitions on an already small hdd then you should know why this was a bad idea by Sony.
About "timed exclusives": Sometimes they work, more often they do not. If you have all consoles you are not impacted anyway ...
Yes,plus using that exotic XDR ram...
In a sense,PS4 was rightful heir of 360.
Aren't unified shaders a pretty big deal? That might set a precedent for the kind of things that may be exclusive
Unified shaders weren't a timed exclusive for the Xbox 360... FFS.
This thread has gone bonkers
This thread has gone bonkers
True, ps3 went with Nvidia pretty late after realising that a 2nd Cell chip wasn't going to cut it as a graphics card
Had they went with Amd from the start then unified shaders would have been an option Imo
MS will be focusing on getting as much silicon into a box and cooling the shit out of it. I don't think they'll be interested in pursuing new architectures and exotic tech like unified shaders back in the day. They'll still need to support Xbox One X for a few more years so they can't be too experimental otherwise shiny new silicon would be unused.
I am predicting we'll be seeing a MS console with a BOM that's not being seen since launch PS3. The same chips would be used in their xblades so the cost would be shared across the whole company.
Sony have indicated they're willing to break away from the previous generation so I think they'll be more experimental.
I am predicting we'll be seeing a MS console with a BOM that's not being seen since launch PS3. The same chips would be used in their xblades so the cost would be shared across the whole company.
Sony have indicated they're willing to break away from the previous generation so I think they'll be more experimental.
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I really want to know how it took them so long to realize it wouldn't work as a GPU...they literally designed the CELL themselves
No they didn't. Cell was developed in a partnership with Toshiba, IBM and Sony. The 2nd Cell was going to have Graphic Synthesiser-esque GPU components that, I believe, Toshiba was primarily responsible for. That's what never came together.
Wasn't it Toshiba that wanted to use the cell in their HD TVs? I know that never came about
Yes... I mean, we literally had an executive like Albert Panello wading in on specs going " we have the smartest minds in the whole world working for us, do you really think we let Sony have better specs, or the gap is that big?" Hell.. he literally hinted at there being two gpus in the Xbox One...
In fact, same MS that said.. "oh, power of the cloud, dont look at Raw numbers, we can get 20TFlops with the power of the cloud, thats what the specs really are" when showing Crackdown 3 etc.
They will say they have the most powerful console no matter what even if they actually don't, and I'm okay being quoted as saying that. Is it very possible they will have the most powerful console? Yes. But big companies don't make money by pissing it away. They know they can just be even and trumpet their shit to kingdom come and it will be just as effect as if they had an extra terraflop
Vega 20 is 7nm and there's no "2X power efficiency" anywhere to be found. It is not far fetched, true, it is straight up in dream world.
Maybe Microsoft:
a) Knows they will be later than Sony
b) Is faking out Sony and trying to:
i) Get Sony to bump specs and sell at higher price
ii) Get Sony to bump specs and sell at higher loss
c) Is planning two skus, one premium with best specs but higher price
d) Is doing a Greenberg "1080p" and being a bit ignorant
No idea how much each knows about each other but I'm sure MS would love to reverse the announcements of current gen.
i hope its not c, because if it is, bye bye generational leap.
well i guess i'll get the prettier games through sony first party in that case as they'll develop for one system, and possibly in a not native 4k solution to significantly reduce render time.
I mean, this is a direct quote from Phil at the E3 2018 conference:
Doesn't sound like PR talk to me. More like they know exactly what they're doing.
Would love ps5 and xbox two to launch on the same day! I would say either summer or autumn 2020. Zero chance of anything in 2019 imo.
OMG, really...this is what you're going on!?
What did you expect him to say?
Either way any difference will ne negligible and people really don't care (outside a few fanbois).
Unprecedented? Like "unprecedented partnership"? ;)
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Oh my what a time to be alive that was.
Albert goating on poor crazies like MrX and his troglodytes. That dgpu and dark silicone secret sauce was meme worthy.
Hope they get their act together for the next reveal. 1X pr was pretty silly with the uncompressed pixels jargon, and E3 wasn't much better with the 'unprecedented performance setting the benchmark' talk when the subject is basically middling pc performance.
I quoted Phil here because somebody questioned why they thought what they thought. At E3 2016, Phil boldly proclaimed that they would have the most powerful console. A full year and a half before the X launched and 3 months before Sony officially announced the Pro. All I'm saying is that he has proven somewhat to have at least an inkling of knowledge of what his competition is doing with relation to what they are doing. I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss what he has said with "OMG, It's his job. What did you expect him to say?". But that's just me.
I'm sure he did have an inkling that Sony were working on Pro, Sony themselves had talked about Neo. I'm sure he also knew that they would be launching around a year later and for ~$100 more, especially as we had rumours a couple months before E3.
It's not rocket science.
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Actually that link is quite interesting...some of things said explain why Sony is quite on PS5;
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...n-boss-andrew-house-ps4-neo-microsoft-scorpio
House also stated that he was surprised by Microsoft's decision on Monday, to announce two new Xbox One iterations during its E3 press conference: the smaller Xbox One S, due this winter, and the more powerful Project Scorpio, coming in 2017.
"I was surprised by the step of announcing something over a year ahead of time," he said. "The dynamics of the tech industry are such that there's a much heavier emphasis on immediate gratification than there was. A lot of that is to do with how Apple has very cleverly and elegantly managed the 'available now' approach. So yes, that was a slight surprise to me. We experienced this ourselves, when, in 2013, very much in line with our previous strategies, we announced a concept and a name for PlayStation 4, and everyone said 'where's the box? How dare you?!' That was the point we realised, well, we hadn't changed but the world around us had."
On the subject of PlayStation 4 Neo, House said that the new machine will very much be something that stands aside the original hardware – it's not a replacement, and both machines will be supported throughout the PS4 lifecycle. "I don't think we're suggesting with Neo, the conventional console lifecycle is over – I'm certainly not making that statement," he said. "This is an additional option, it's a high-end version of a PlayStation 4, let's be very clear about that, rather than a generational shift."
"Some of our thinking was informed by changes that have happened in the broader tech landscape and the cadence of innovation to which the consumer is now attuned – particularly by smartphones," he said. "I'm not suggesting we want to bring the games industry to an 18-month-two-year cycle because then you would lose an awful lot of the fixed platform benefits we've enjoyed that allow for these really great leaps in game experience.
"However, we did think there was an opportunity to reflect on the traditional lifecycle, and on 4K technology, and say maybe there's an opportunity, within the course of a normal lifecycle to offer something else, something a little bit better, for a segment of the market that feels that this is important."
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...n-boss-andrew-house-ps4-neo-microsoft-scorpio
House also stated that he was surprised by Microsoft's decision on Monday, to announce two new Xbox One iterations during its E3 press conference: the smaller Xbox One S, due this winter, and the more powerful Project Scorpio, coming in 2017.
"I was surprised by the step of announcing something over a year ahead of time," he said. "The dynamics of the tech industry are such that there's a much heavier emphasis on immediate gratification than there was. A lot of that is to do with how Apple has very cleverly and elegantly managed the 'available now' approach. So yes, that was a slight surprise to me. We experienced this ourselves, when, in 2013, very much in line with our previous strategies, we announced a concept and a name for PlayStation 4, and everyone said 'where's the box? How dare you?!' That was the point we realised, well, we hadn't changed but the world around us had."
On the subject of PlayStation 4 Neo, House said that the new machine will very much be something that stands aside the original hardware – it's not a replacement, and both machines will be supported throughout the PS4 lifecycle. "I don't think we're suggesting with Neo, the conventional console lifecycle is over – I'm certainly not making that statement," he said. "This is an additional option, it's a high-end version of a PlayStation 4, let's be very clear about that, rather than a generational shift."
"Some of our thinking was informed by changes that have happened in the broader tech landscape and the cadence of innovation to which the consumer is now attuned – particularly by smartphones," he said. "I'm not suggesting we want to bring the games industry to an 18-month-two-year cycle because then you would lose an awful lot of the fixed platform benefits we've enjoyed that allow for these really great leaps in game experience.
"However, we did think there was an opportunity to reflect on the traditional lifecycle, and on 4K technology, and say maybe there's an opportunity, within the course of a normal lifecycle to offer something else, something a little bit better, for a segment of the market that feels that this is important."
MI60 has clock and perf ~20% higher than MI25 on the same number of cores, at the same TDP (while beefing FP64, INT4/8 datapaths, nonetheless). Since power dissipation doesn't scale linearly with clocks (and depending on where you are in the curve, slope can get quite steep), it's fairly clear that Vega 20 is more than 20% more power efficient than Vega 10. We'll just have to wait until someone gets their hands on one and underclock/undervolt it to 1.5GHz to get the actual number.
AMD saying it only uses 50% of the power at the same clock speeds lines up with that, so I'm willing to believe them.
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And there are several things on that board that won't scale at all like VRM overhead or RAM power.
The rumored TDPs for Navi cards indicate a huge scaling of power. I'll reserve judgement until they show up.
The MI60 also has twice the amount of RAM at higher clocks, too. That is probably adding an extra ~10-20W to the power budget (HBM2 is about 3x more efficient than GDDR5, GB/s per W, according to AMD).
Unfortunately, news from AMD often sound too good to be true...i hope Zen2 will prove me wrong.
Frankly,i don't expect much from Navi except better TDP then Vega cause of switch to 7nm.
Well it was easy cause they already knew the basic specs of Neo before designing their machine. They read GAF like most of us. There were leaks of Pro and a notable one with quite precise specs (double GPU so about 4Tflops) in march 2016. They must have verified the information in a way or another. Then they panicked and began to design their own mid-gen console, they knew Neo GPU would be about 4Tflops, and they aimed for 50% higher specs (higher than XB1 -> PS4 40% difference). And they began their PR campaign very early in order to: damage control the imminent release of Pro (one year before XBX release) and to conceal the fact that they were going to completely miss the mid-gen party.
19 months after the very specific Neo leak, they released their XBX. They never talked about their Scorpio before that date, only after. And 19 months is enough to design an produce a console from off the shelf widely available tech (Jaguar + Polaris + GDDR5). Reportedly at launch the SDK of XBX was very incomplete and clearly not finished. As long as I don't see proofs that they had plans to design a mid-gen console before march 2016 then I'll firmly believe they designed their XBX as a reactionary measure against Pro.
But that won't be the same in 2020 if both release their machines simultaneously. They won't be able to copy PS5 architecture and beef the specs up this time.
Most of the skepticism I've seen centers on pricing, not performance.
I find it hilarious that you guys seriously think that Sony's and Microsoft's only source of information are the same rumors/speculation bits we all read on the inter-webs. And that bit about Microsoft panicking to counter the Pro is one hell of a hot take. Specially since in actuality the X seems like it was very well thought-out piece of kit (hardware/the way BC works etc...). One can make a similar (but counter) argument that Sony rushed the Pro to market without putting much thought into it (relative to what MS did with the X). But I suppose in the mean time we can all have fun speculating. It'll definitely be fun watching how all this unfolds. :-)
Sony has always been with 6 years life cycle... only 1 extra year has been added after the HD era for many reasons ( good generations jump with the right price and games taking much longer to develop ect ) and some are acting like this is the worst thing ever!
Will, do you want more powerful colesones with the right prices and solid AAA games? This is the price why acting like 7 years of life cycle is the devil when it's a common sense and the logic thing now?
Plus seriously people desperately want next gen ASAP they shifted from 2019 to Q1 2020?
lol....
That won't happen... no chance Sony will release their next gen console anytime outside the holidays season and after marketing their next gen console for 9-8 -7 months at every possible major conference ( E3, Europeans conferences, TGS ect ) this isn't a mid gen refresh... this is NEXT GEN.
Plus the PS4 will continue to sell like hot cakes through 2019 and all the time in 2020 till the fall... TLOU2 and Ghost of Tsushima and Death Stranding and other big third party games are all coming to PS4 in it's last 18 months ( like they always do with their consoles they continue to release their big games and support their consoles with it till the end ) ... and with a price drop to boost the sales up if it slowed down, Why they have to feel like they need to rush a new generation console before the holidays period which is the time they usually release their consoles in ( at less in the west )?
PS5 November 2020.
Will, do you want more powerful colesones with the right prices and solid AAA games? This is the price why acting like 7 years of life cycle is the devil when it's a common sense and the logic thing now?
Plus seriously people desperately want next gen ASAP they shifted from 2019 to Q1 2020?
lol....
That won't happen... no chance Sony will release their next gen console anytime outside the holidays season and after marketing their next gen console for 9-8 -7 months at every possible major conference ( E3, Europeans conferences, TGS ect ) this isn't a mid gen refresh... this is NEXT GEN.
Plus the PS4 will continue to sell like hot cakes through 2019 and all the time in 2020 till the fall... TLOU2 and Ghost of Tsushima and Death Stranding and other big third party games are all coming to PS4 in it's last 18 months ( like they always do with their consoles they continue to release their big games and support their consoles with it till the end ) ... and with a price drop to boost the sales up if it slowed down, Why they have to feel like they need to rush a new generation console before the holidays period which is the time they usually release their consoles in ( at less in the west )?
PS5 November 2020.
Wait there a moment, don't take my comment out of context...all I was saying was that if the general news/rumours were out in the wild how much do you think MS knew! (if you dig deep enough you'll see that I imply it's highly likely both MS and Sony know quite a bit about each others next gen consoles at this point). Also, I never said anything about knee-jerk reactions - personally I think as soon as Spencer took over his plan was to get Kinect dropped and make the Xbox the most powerful console after getting so much negative feedback from their biggest fans.
Right, and how exactly do you think that it's not far fetched to expect a Navi part with the same number of units (or less?) and on the same process to consume half of that power while being 15% faster?
Sometimes I genuinely wonder why people set themselves up for a disappointment.
AMD said you get 1.25X performance for the same power recently. 20% faster for 7nm Vega is pretty damn close. They still made the 2x claim in the same presentation. This confirms what we've known all along - clocks don't scale much at all at 7nm. This makes sense since interconnect resistivity is starting to dominate, and you've got to crank voltages to meet timing, which shreds your power budget.
Consoles will be targeting the knee of the curve where you get the most perf/Watt, so they will want to end up close to that ideal 2x factor if they can.
The 15% faster is almost certainly including architecture improvements. NGG, primitive shaders actually enabled, enhanced color compression etc. should get you there.
If the variable wavefront sizing and more efficient bandwidth sharing patents show up in the next APU design, we'll have a very balanced chip for which it will be easier to optimize, hopefully.
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PS3 launched later than 360 and was more expensive, but not 'absolutely certainly' more poweful. Your 3 ways are solid, but there are no certainties.
If AMD is working on optimizing their architectural perf/W - and they really should - they might do exactly that. I recall reading that Vega 10 is some ~10% more efficient perf/W than Polaris on the same node, everything else being equal, and Vega is still pretty atrocious at that.
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I think we'll hear about Microsofts next console and new studios / games at E3. We won't hear about Sony's offerings until December 2019 at the earliest, but likely around GDC, with a release in the holiday season of 2020.
That said, I really think both companies are going to push their power less and their social features more, especially Microsoft. The next Xbox is going to have some really cool stuff built into their Mixer platform, I think, and with Windows PCs having it as an included feature, I think we'll really see the next evolution of social gaming.
Either way, I'm far more excited about the community side of PSN / XBL than I am for power. There is less and less on the table to impress the mass market visually, so they really need to leverage the features, IMO.
That said, I really think both companies are going to push their power less and their social features more, especially Microsoft. The next Xbox is going to have some really cool stuff built into their Mixer platform, I think, and with Windows PCs having it as an included feature, I think we'll really see the next evolution of social gaming.
Either way, I'm far more excited about the community side of PSN / XBL than I am for power. There is less and less on the table to impress the mass market visually, so they really need to leverage the features, IMO.
I think E3 2019 will be the discless XB1 and they're unveiling of their vision of xCloud, with heavy undertones for next gen. They'll hold their full next gen reveal until 2020. But xCloud is very much their vision of where the platform is headed, and they have a much clearer vision to present than Sony does in that sense.
I think the timeline will much more accelerated. I think xCloud will hit public alpha/beta prior to E3, perhaps GDC. The discless XB1 I could see at E3, but also wouldn't be surprised if it was before, coinciding with xCloud announcements.
For next gen / Scarlett, I think they'll look to employ a similar strategy to Xbox One X, especially if they're confident of the features/capability of the box relative to PS5. In 2016/2017, you'd be hard pressed to find an article about PS4 Pro which didn't mention Project Scorpio. I think for them announcing prior to PS5 will be a goal to ensure they're always in the conversation. I think that's one of the reason why at this past E3 Phil mentioned their working on next gen - when next gen articles and discussions are occurring, they want to be a part of it.
This simply can not happen. They need to be in the same launch window or better yet day and date. I don't think XB can afford to have Sony to set the next gen narrative unchallenged. The rumor that puts PS5 early 2020 (March) and XBOX in November 2020 would be as detrimental as the XBO's original announcement in terms of mind share and momentum.