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When will the first 'next gen' console arrive?

  • H2 2019

    Votes: 638 14.1%
  • H1 2020

    Votes: 724 16.0%
  • H2 2020

    Votes: 2,813 62.2%
  • H1 2021

    Votes: 141 3.1%
  • H2 2021

    Votes: 208 4.6%

  • Total voters
    4,524
  • Poll closed .
Oct 27, 2017
20,756
If they bring two versions then one will replace the X1X.

They probably keep X1S as a cheap entry level way into the platform. Also still useful for price-driven 'emerging' markets.
So theoretically, Xbox would have on the market: Xbox One S, Xbox One Discless model, Xbox Streaming model (this could be same as discless model), Xbox Two S and Xbox Two Pro. Assuming they stop making Xbox One X since Xbox Two S replaces it

Wow. That's, uhh, a lot of hardware. Reminds me of how in 2011-2013 Nintendo sold DS Lite, DSi, DSi XL and 3DS (and 3DS XL!)
 

illamap

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
466
There is no problem with releasing 1080p console in 2020. You are fools if you think devs target native 4k let alone native 4k at 60fps. Checkerboarded or temporally upscaled 4k is ofc doable for many.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
The "Xbox S" is not going to be a 1080p console. What are you guys even doing anymore?
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,824
Australia
I very much doubt they'll discontinue XB1 on the launch of their next-gen consoles.

There will still be a market for legacy consoles, especially in emerging markets.

Brad Sam's rumour make it clear that a cost reduced 7nm XB1S is on the cards, together with a discless box next year. The XB1X might disappear in favour of Lockheart though.

You really shouldn't bother, I've gone down this rabbit hole before. As far as Alandring is concerned, a console's sales dropping off a cliff the moment its successor is released is basically a law of the universe. If you remind him of the cheap PS2's success in later years, you'll just get a 'the market has changed'.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
R.O.B the robot lives!!!!

I thought when I saw the application that this was a very 'Nintendo-like' invention. In a optimal/idealized implementation it could be a way to do something a little like VR without glasses/hmds also.

They had another simpler application a few months back for something slightly related, VR-related - using a second screen app on a mobile phone as a another window into the virtual world that a hmd wearer is seeing. And if you look through your phone at the person wearing the hmd you would see their character in that world, moving as the player does etc. Taking the idea of the 'social screen' another step forward.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Why not? The current One S strives to do so while just upscaling content to 4K. It just misses the 1080p mark because of Microsoft's bad hardware decisions.

4k is going to be the standard in 2020. They aren't going to force 4k TV owners to buy the most expensive Xbox to get 4K. This line of thinking is like 2014. Both Xbox consoles will be 4K.
 

Intersect

Banned
Nov 5, 2017
451
Actually MS has been working on streaming for a long time, they just didn't think it was ready for primetime (also the cost of Azure at the time.) We know they showed Halo 4 running on a Windows phone back in 2013 at a company meeting, they had apparently reduced the latency down to 45ms on a Lumia.
The 2010 Leaked papers for the Xbox 720 stress cloud augmented gaming. Many of the features in the leaked paper have not been implemented as they require ATSC 2.0+ features which will be fully implemented with ATSC 3.0. The paper speculates the next playstation will support Google's Android TV which also had a HDMI passthrough or Network Tuner LIKE PROPOSED for the Xbox 361 and in the Xbox one.

Slide40.jpg
 

Intersect

Banned
Nov 5, 2017
451
That's the thing. Why does the extra CPU work matter? You're going to entirely dedicate a console to being a modestly better version of the last system and call it the base model of the new thing? I don't buy such a thought as something Spencer would do. Then again, he also though UHD blu-Ray was important. So whatever I guess lol
Rumor has it the Microsoft streaming platform will have a Picasso APU. Should support AMD's VM security so the gaming hardware can support UHD media DRM.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Time will tell. I think it's too early to make that call, but I appreciate how steadfast you are in your beliefs!

Yeah we'll see! I just think some here are underestimating 4K tv adoption rates and thinking the line will be 1080p vs 4K in 2020. PS5 and Xbox Next Gen will use 4K as the floor not the ceiling anymore. A cheaper Xbox in 2020 doesn't automatically mean 1080p, unless we are talking about it being $99 or $199 (which the Xbox One S will already cover).
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
Yeah we'll see! I just think some here are underestimating 4K tv adoption rates and thinking the line will be 1080p vs 4K in 2020. PS5 and Xbox Next Gen will use 4K as the floor not the ceiling anymore. A cheaper Xbox in 2020 doesn't automatically mean 1080p, unless we are talking about it being $99 or $199 (which the Xbox One S will already cover).

I definitely get that, and I guess the only other thing that I'd add is that I agree with you. That's why I can't see a 1080p box that doesn't upscale games to 4K. We obviously know that this wouldn't be as good as the native experience, but I question whether the consumers Microsoft is aiming for would really notice the difference.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
How can you argue that splitting the installed base between multiple platforms with different specs isn't fragmentation? It is objectively fragmentation by definition. So were the mid-gen consoles.

Essentially your arguement boils down to, "fragmentation is not new to devs". It's a poor arguement.

Just because its not a new thing doesn't mean its not objectively more work for developers. Fragmentation complicates development and no amount of dev tools provided by MS is going to help because developers fundamentally use their own engines and art assets need to be made able to scale across the different spec'd machines. Your view of games development is much too simplistic.

Each platform needs optimisation time, assets selected appropriate for the platform, testing time and QA.

Better SDK tools will only expedite the time needed to get the games up at running on each SKU and these days with commercial multiplatform engines, that's hardly the critical path for development.

The fragmentation is something MS doesn't HAVE to do. It only really benefits MS marketing position.
1. Developers have been making games for different spec for ages, moreso on PC because they love to sell as many copies as possible. Sure there are those that will skimp on QA, but to state that there are many that will simply not bother is simply here nor there. Mark Cerny said that Days Gone was essentially ported up by a single developer from the base model to the Pro and it did not require a lot of work. What is to say that their tools will not get better going forward? Microsoft has stated that their aim to to make things as easy as possible for developers. If these companies are stating that it is not that big a deal, and there is no evidence massive complaints from developers coming out and saying that they have a huge issue with the way things work, or it being a pain in the ass, then what are people going on about?

2. This 'fragmentation' is something that has been there in electronics for ages. Gaming is only now embracing it to a far greater degree despite it having worked well for Nintendo with the DS. It used to be that if you wanted a colour TV you had to pay more, if you wanted (and is still the case) a bigger TV you have to pay more. If you wanted better quality speakers even from the same vendor you had to pay more, if you wanted a flat screen TV you had to pay more. Want HBM? You pay more for it, want a top end Nvidia card with ray tracing? Pay for it.

This is a model that works because it covers a broad spectrum of the market and it is what Microsoft want to cover going forward. So long as they have the same PC on the base and upgraded version, everything will work fine as they scale the resolution and visual fidelity and effects. That is not only a good option for Microsoft to have early on, it is a great option for me as a consumer to have straight out of the gate.
 

TheRaidenPT

Editor-in-Chief, Hyped Pixels
Verified
Jun 11, 2018
5,945
Lisbon, Portugal
1. Developers have been making games for different spec for ages, moreso on PC because they love to sell as many copies as possible. Sure there are those that will skimp on QA, but to state that there are many that will simply not bother is simply here nor there. Mark Cerny said that Days Gone was essentially ported up by a single developer from the base model to the Pro and it did not require a lot of work. What is to say that their tools will not get better going forward? Microsoft has stated that their aim to to make things as easy as possible for developers. If these companies are stating that it is not that big a deal, and there is no evidence massive complaints from developers coming out and saying that they have a huge issue with the way things work, or it being a pain in the ass, then what are people going on about?

2. This 'fragmentation' is something that has been there in electronics for ages. Gaming is only now embracing it to a far greater degree despite it having worked well for Nintendo with the DS. It used to be that if you wanted a colour TV you had to pay more, if you wanted (and is still the case) a bigger TV you have to pay more. If you wanted better quality speakers even from the same vendor you had to pay more, if you wanted a flat screen TV you had to pay more. Want HBM? You pay more for it, want a top end Nvidia card with ray tracing? Pay for it.

This is a model that works because it covers a broad spectrum of the market and it is what Microsoft want to cover going forward. So long as they have the same PC on the base and upgraded version, everything will work fine as they scale the resolution and visual fidelity and effects. That is not only a good option for Microsoft to have early on, it is a great option for me as a consumer to have straight out of the gate.

Cross Platform gaming would help a lot tbh, I don't see why PlayStation owners can't ply against Xbox One owners in Battlefield.

I do believe next gen will help a lot with this, there's games like FIFA, NBA, COD and so much that would benefit with this
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
1. Developers have been making games for different spec for ages, moreso on PC because they love to sell as many copies as possible. Sure there are those that will skimp on QA, but to state that there are many that will simply not bother is simply here nor there. Mark Cerny said that Days Gone was essentially ported up by a single developer from the base model to the Pro and it did not require a lot of work. What is to say that their tools will not get better going forward? Microsoft has stated that their aim to to make things as easy as possible for developers. If these companies are stating that it is not that big a deal, and there is no evidence massive complaints from developers coming out and saying that they have a huge issue with the way things work, or it being a pain in the ass, then what are people going on about?

2. This 'fragmentation' is something that has been there in electronics for ages. Gaming is only now embracing it to a far greater degree despite it having worked well for Nintendo with the DS. It used to be that if you wanted a colour TV you had to pay more, if you wanted (and is still the case) a bigger TV you have to pay more. If you wanted better quality speakers even from the same vendor you had to pay more, if you wanted a flat screen TV you had to pay more. Want HBM? You pay more for it, want a top end Nvidia card with ray tracing? Pay for it.

This is a model that works because it covers a broad spectrum of the market and it is what Microsoft want to cover going forward. So long as they have the same PC on the base and upgraded version, everything will work fine as they scale the resolution and visual fidelity and effects. That is not only a good option for Microsoft to have early on, it is a great option for me as a consumer to have straight out of the gate.
If MS want to try selling their console this way, that is their choice. But don't expect brick and mortar stores to be happy about stocking the consoles themselves. Too many SKUs means extra shelf space that stores can't spare. And MS is going to have real difficulty dealing with the manufacturing.

I expect such a Scarlet release would lead to one or two real winners, while every other SKU dying off in 6 months at the latest. MS would soon realise which console the customers choose, and decide that the failing SKUs are not worth the production costs to keep making and stocking.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
1. Developers have been making games for different spec for ages, moreso on PC because they love to sell as many copies as possible. Sure there are those that will skimp on QA, but to state that there are many that will simply not bother is simply here nor there. Mark Cerny said that Days Gone was essentially ported up by a single developer from the base model to the Pro and it did not require a lot of work. What is to say that their tools will not get better going forward? Microsoft has stated that their aim to to make things as easy as possible for developers. If these companies are stating that it is not that big a deal, and there is no evidence massive complaints from developers coming out and saying that they have a huge issue with the way things work, or it being a pain in the ass, then what are people going on about?

2. This 'fragmentation' is something that has been there in electronics for ages. Gaming is only now embracing it to a far greater degree despite it having worked well for Nintendo with the DS. It used to be that if you wanted a colour TV you had to pay more, if you wanted (and is still the case) a bigger TV you have to pay more. If you wanted better quality speakers even from the same vendor you had to pay more, if you wanted a flat screen TV you had to pay more. Want HBM? You pay more for it, want a top end Nvidia card with ray tracing? Pay for it.

This is a model that works because it covers a broad spectrum of the market and it is what Microsoft want to cover going forward. So long as they have the same PC on the base and upgraded version, everything will work fine as they scale the resolution and visual fidelity and effects. That is not only a good option for Microsoft to have early on, it is a great option for me as a consumer to have straight out of the gate.




The problem is that it's not like on PC since devs have to make it themselves. Despite having 2 Xbox SKU, some games arent X enhanced. Even new games.
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
If MS want to try selling their console this way, that is their choice. But don't expect brick and mortar stores to be happy about stocking the consoles themselves. Too many SKUs means extra shelf space that stores can't spare. And MS is going to have real difficulty dealing with the manufacturing.

I expect such a Scarlet release would lead to one or two real winners, while every other SKU dying off in 6 months at the latest. MS would soon realise which console the customers choose, and decide that the failing SKUs are not worth the production costs to keep making and stocking.

To play devil's advocate, Microsoft is already overwhelming retailers with console options. Every Holiday season sees like five or six different Xbox bundles. I wouldn't be too surprised if they just choose to focus on the new console while letting the "One" family of devices be the one that's primarily available online and in specific stores.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
the cheaper sku will most likely not run at 1080p because they want a console with true 4K capabillities which the X2 version wont be able to do with only around 2x the speed, so i assume it will be a 1440p console.
regarding the price, i still think the cheaper machine will be 399, its hard for me to see how this console can be built for 299 (i guess its not impossible but 2 skus gives them incentive to not subsidize the consoles much).
For my taste people are way too much concerned about the capabilities of a entry level next gen Xbox. Some of the stories here really makes me laugh (in general, not yours in particular). Can't wait for the first face to face comparisons with games of all next gen SKUs (Sony & MS) in late 2020.

On a 2nd note I actually changed my mind a little bit towards a 2 SKU launch (as I was not convinced when heard about first). IIRC the 360 started with 2 SKUs too though the difference was just the Hdd. Having a afforable price SKU maybe can convince some consumers to buy in faster into next gen. I absolutely do not talk about consumers like us here on ResetEra. For sure we would go with the preferred Eco-System for any price all day long ... We will see as well in 2020.

The problem is that it's not like on PC since devs have to make it themselves. Despite having 2 Xbox SKU, some games arent X enhanced. Even new games.

Slightly different situation here as the Xbox One X has a different system architecture compared to the base consoles and due to it an major update on the used APIs. We can safely assume that the Scarlett consoles would sport the exact same system architecture and APIs this time but with different specifications maybe for hdd space, CPU speed, GPU CUs & speed, amount of memory & memory bandwidth.
 
Last edited:

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,298
This is a ridiculous statement by the way. The multiple SKU has been shown to work this generation with gaming. Releasing two consoles that share the same CPU, targeting higher spec then scaling downwards or vice versa will not be something new. It would be a continuation of what has been happening for three to four years on current generation consoles by the time the next generation arrives assuming it is in the holiday period.

The only "ridiculous" statement is you calling other contributors statments ridiculous.

I've noticed your very rude behaviour across many posts, so welcome to my ignore list
 
OP
OP
Phoenix Splash
Mar 23, 2018
2,654
So the expectation is that the price of the S model will be $299 and the price of the X model $499-599? I'm personally expecting $399 for the S model and a difference of hardware slightly equivalent to what the OG Xbox model is to the PS4 but with the S model to the PS5, theorically, because PS5 could be a $499 console.

What does this mean for a possible "X" revision in the future, though. If there's no PS5 Pro at launch, it's possible there will be later on.
 

0VERBYTE

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,555
If MS want to try selling their console this way, that is their choice. But don't expect brick and mortar stores to be happy about stocking the consoles themselves. Too many SKUs means extra shelf space that stores can't spare. And MS is going to have real difficulty dealing with the manufacturing.

I expect such a Scarlet release would lead to one or two real winners, while every other SKU dying off in 6 months at the latest. MS would soon realise which console the customers choose, and decide that the failing SKUs are not worth the production costs to keep making and stocking.
Msft could sell their streaming consoles exclusively thru their online store or Amazon with finance subscription attache' and just do their regular 2 skus thru brick and mortar shops like gamestop just as done the last 12 years. No messy business there.
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
So the expectation is that the price of the S model will be $299 and the price of the X model $499-599? I'm personally expecting $399 for the S model and a difference of hardware slightly equivalent to what the OG Xbox model is to the PS4 but with the S model to the PS5, theorically, because PS5 could be a $499 console.

What does this mean for a possible "X" revision in the future, though. If there's no PS5 Pro at launch, it's possible there will be later on.

I really can't help but wonder if these "insiders" have some wires crossed and the differences in SKU's will be minor. I could kind of see Microsoft doing an "Arcade" Xbox2 that just has a standard HDD, while a "Pro" SKU maybe has an SSD and some other flourishes ALA the "Project Scorpio" edition Xbox One X.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
So the expectation is that the price of the S model will be $299 and the price of the X model $499-599? I'm personally expecting $399 for the S model and a difference of hardware slightly equivalent to what the OG Xbox model is to the PS4 but with the S model to the PS5, theorically, because PS5 could be a $499 console.

What does this mean for a possible "X" revision in the future, though. If there's no PS5 Pro at launch, it's possible there will be later on.
I expect a pricing hierarchy of this kind (Assumptions: 2 Xbox SKUs, 1 PS5 SKU): X2S < PS5 < X2X

I really can't help but wonder if these "insiders" have some wires crossed and the differences in SKU's will be minor. I could kind of see Microsoft doing an "Arcade" Xbox2 that just has a standard HDD, while a "Pro" SKU maybe has an SSD and some other flourishes ALA the "Project Scorpio" edition Xbox One X.

As we do not know anything other than some code names all variations of differentiation are possible. The one you noted could be actually a very feasible one I didn't thought about.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,824
Australia
For my taste people are way too much concerned about the capabilities of a entry level next gen Xbox. Some of the stories here really makes me laugh. Can't wait for the first face to face comparisons with games of all next gen SKUs (Sony & MS) in late 2020.

On a 2nd note I actually changed my mind a little bit towards a 2 SKU launch (as I was not convinced when heard about first). IIRC the 360 started with 2 SKUs too though the difference was just the Hdd. Having a afforable price SKU maybe can convince some consumers to buy in faster into next gen. I absolutely do not talk about consumers like us here on ResetEra. For sure we would go with the preferred Eco-System for any price all day long ... We will see as well in 2020.

Keep in mind that the 360 had no direct competition for a whole year, and when competition did arrive it did the same thing. You can get away with a lot in that situation.
 

goonergaz

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,710
1. Why would I need to stop comparing to other electronics? All electronics work in the same spectrum when they release separate hardware revisions i.e. to have a product that can appeal to people at different price points. This is what this is supposed to achieve not only mid generation, but at the start of the generation should it see the light of day.

Because consoles are not like other hardware. This isn't a mobile phone which is often tied to a contract, this isn't a TV that the whole family may watch and generally you'll buy based on affordability buying the best you can get for the money you can afford against many, many options. The same can be said for many other electrical devices, in fact I can't think of many things where you are limited to so few options...

2. You think that PS4 Pro selling one in four consoles is a bad number? What did you expect it account for? 50% of total sales? Maybe 40% on the lower side? Why not sell that high end console on day one and let it sell as many as it possibly can?

And here you show your lack of business knowledge. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to produce a 'pro' style console at launch and how many units you would need to sell to make it worth actually doing? How did Sony do with their PS3? A premium product that was actually reasonable VFM when you actually did the math. It wasn't until they brought the price down did they start to make head-way.

I would personally like to have that option on day one where I choose to have a higher spec console.

Me too, welcome to the niche market within the niche market.

Anyway, as I said, I'm done with this disagreement.
 

goonergaz

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,710
Keep in mind that the 360 had no direct competition for a whole year, and when competition did arrive it did the same thing. You can get away with a lot in that situation.

360 core was a complete con. 'Here have a cheap entry console that you'll have to spend a shed-load on to get it in a reasonable state'. I remember at launch, because it only came with a component and composite lead I had to spend £50 on a scart lead!
 

severianb

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
957
Slightly different situation here as the Xbox One X has a different system architecture compared to the base consoles and due to it an major update on the used APIs. We can safely assume that the Scarlett consoles would sport the exact same system architecture and APIs this time but with different specifications maybe for hdd space, CPU speed, GPU CUs & speed, amount of memory & memory bandwidth.

This exactly. Developers of new games have hardly any issues making a Xbox One S version and a enhanced X1X version with the current API. They will have ZERO issues making games that take advantage of multiple SKUs, even if they have very different amounts of power, since the architecture is going to be the same on all of them.

I really don't understand the pushback on this. A store like Walmart carries millions of SKUs, which are constantly changing. Having 2 or 3 more Xbox SKUs to keep track of is NOT a big deal. I think people are still stuck in the old console days when there were huge differences between consoles and you would miss out on some games if you got the wrong one.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,824
Australia
360 core was a complete con. 'Here have a cheap entry console that you'll have to spend a shed-load on to get it in a reasonable state'. I remember at launch, because it only came with a component and composite lead I had to spend £50 on a scart lead!

This was kind of a thing with the 360 in general, I feel. There was also stuff like the paid online, the grossly overpriced proprietary HDDs, and didn't they also charge $99 for the separate Wi-Fi dongle? It's part of why I was at least somewhat ok with PS3's crazy price - you had to pay a lot upfront, but it didn't have as many hidden costs.

Well, that and it was cheaper than the cheapest, shittiest Blu-ray player, but whatever.
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,541
I really can't help but wonder if these "insiders" have some wires crossed and the differences in SKU's will be minor. I could kind of see Microsoft doing an "Arcade" Xbox2 that just has a standard HDD, while a "Pro" SKU maybe has an SSD and some other flourishes ALA the "Project Scorpio" edition Xbox One X.

I think the fact that they're referencing replacing the X and S helps paint the picture that they will be somewhat different. While I could see exactly what you're talking about and Microsoft offering up a $100 more expensive model that includes an SSD or something along those lines, both Windows Central and Brad Sams are saying the S and X are getting replaced in the Scarlett lineup so it's not like we're hearing conflicting things from 2 reliable Microsoft rumor/news sites.
 

goonergaz

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,710
This was kind of a thing with the 360 in general, I feel. There was also stuff like the paid online, the grossly overpriced proprietary HDDs, and didn't they also charge $99 for the separate Wi-Fi dongle? It's part of why I was at least somewhat ok with PS3's crazy price - you had to pay a lot upfront, but it didn't have as many hidden costs.

Well, that and it was cheaper than the cheapest, shittiest Blu-ray player, but whatever.

Oh yeah, the wifi lol. I remember having a 'discussion' at work - if you added everything onto the X360 to make it do what a PS3 could do it was actually more expensive, and like you say - it kind of made the PS3 price easier to swallow!
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
1. Developers have been making games for different spec for ages, moreso on PC because they love to sell as many copies as possible. Sure there are those that will skimp on QA, but to state that there are many that will simply not bother is simply here nor there. Mark Cerny said that Days Gone was essentially ported up by a single developer from the base model to the Pro and it did not require a lot of work. What is to say that their tools will not get better going forward? Microsoft has stated that their aim to to make things as easy as possible for developers. If these companies are stating that it is not that big a deal, and there is no evidence massive complaints from developers coming out and saying that they have a huge issue with the way things work, or it being a pain in the ass, then what are people going on about?

2. This 'fragmentation' is something that has been there in electronics for ages. Gaming is only now embracing it to a far greater degree despite it having worked well for Nintendo with the DS. It used to be that if you wanted a colour TV you had to pay more, if you wanted (and is still the case) a bigger TV you have to pay more. If you wanted better quality speakers even from the same vendor you had to pay more, if you wanted a flat screen TV you had to pay more. Want HBM? You pay more for it, want a top end Nvidia card with ray tracing? Pay for it.

This is a model that works because it covers a broad spectrum of the market and it is what Microsoft want to cover going forward. So long as they have the same PC on the base and upgraded version, everything will work fine as they scale the resolution and visual fidelity and effects. That is not only a good option for Microsoft to have early on, it is a great option for me as a consumer to have straight out of the gate.

Devs aren't complaining about it because fragmentation at day one at the start of a gen hasn't happened -- as it pertains to performance -- and even with the differences in HDD size and availability at the start of last gen, developers DID complain, which is why we saw a much simplified offering with the launches of PS4 and XB1 at the start of this gen.

You seem to me to arguing from the perspective that, "MS is doing it therefore let me conjure up every contrived justification as to why its a good idea".

I'm arguing from a perspective of whether its a good or bad idea based on the pros and cons to every stakeholder, i.e. platform holders, pubs/devs, consumers.

So far, i only see pros for MS. Consumers get a semi-raw deal, as while they get a console that's cheaper, at the XB1X level it simply isn't next-gen and holds bavk next-gen games as the lowest denomenator stifling ambition and creativity. While for devs it quite an adjustment and additional hassle for development--which whether you want to believe it or not, will appear in the games.

Conceptually, releasing two skus at different performance levels is a worse idea than launching a single SKU and keeping all console owners on a level playing field... which incidentally was the entire point of consoles from the very moment they were conceived.

Anything that disrupts or adds complexity to that fixed hardware spec. is negative, from a dev and indirectly consumer perspective.

Anyway, you seem intent on dismissing these points, so there's little point in continuing this charade of a discourse.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
The problem is that it's not like on PC since devs have to make it themselves. Despite having 2 Xbox SKU, some games arent X enhanced. Even new games.
I think Colbert has answered that well enough. If it ends up being the same architecture and it looks like being that, then the job will even get simpler. Look at Mark Cerny's comment on porting Days Gone up.

The only "ridiculous" statement is you calling other contributors statments ridiculous.

I've noticed your very rude behaviour across many posts, so welcome to my ignore list
Meh! People are too sensitive on here at times. My pleasure by the way, one cannot please everyone in this world. Have to be oneself.

Because consoles are not like other hardware. This isn't a mobile phone which is often tied to a contract, this isn't a TV that the whole family may watch and generally you'll buy based on affordability buying the best you can get for the money you can afford against many, many options. The same can be said for many other electrical devices, in fact I can't think of many things where you are limited to so few options...



And here you show your lack of business knowledge. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to produce a 'pro' style console at launch and how many units you would need to sell to make it worth actually doing? How did Sony do with their PS3? A premium product that was actually reasonable VFM when you actually did the math. It wasn't until they brought the price down did they start to make head-way.



Me too, welcome to the niche market within the niche market.

Anyway, as I said, I'm done with this disagreement.
Sony did what Microsoft did with two SKU last generation the main difference being HDD. Sony ran into problems selling the console because they had to put Blu Ray in the box to try and win the next generation media disc format, they also made a poor decision trying to run everything through Cell eventually going to Nvidia for a graphics chip.

They eventually had to drop the console price $100 to move units because the main competing console was way cheaper. Microsoft is trying to cover the low end that is price conscious and the higher end of the market that wants more performance.

If MS want to try selling their console this way, that is their choice. But don't expect brick and mortar stores to be happy about stocking the consoles themselves. Too many SKUs means extra shelf space that stores can't spare. And MS is going to have real difficulty dealing with the manufacturing.

I expect such a Scarlet release would lead to one or two real winners, while every other SKU dying off in 6 months at the latest. MS would soon realise which console the customers choose, and decide that the failing SKUs are not worth the production costs to keep making and stocking.
I spent a lot of my time at a game shop for close to 7 years when I had time because that is where my friends worked and would hang out. It was retail. I still have friends that sell electronics, including consoles for a living.

They will have an issue early on knowing what to stock up on because they do not know what version of the console will sell well enough. Common sense says that they will stock up more on the base version because that is what is likely to move more units. Over time, they get to know what sells and what to stock more on. This is not only for consoles, but also software because stocking way too much of something that does not sell means dead stock.

I think the expectation is that the base console will move the most units, Microsoft will simply keep the higher SKU in the market because there is a market that it caters to.
 

Alandring

Banned
Feb 2, 2018
1,841
Switzerland
what is the market at launch of a new console for price sensitive consumers?

genuinely curious if that is enough volume to warrant a separate SKU. It might help front load adoption (which is perhaps attractive to MS from a momentum and competition perspective), by bringing year 2&3 consumers on board earlier due to the lower price.
To be honest, I don't know. If Microsoft really launch two SKU at the same time, sales will be very interesting to see.

Brad Sam's rumour make it clear that a cost reduced 7nm XB1S is on the cards, together with a discless box next year. The XB1X might disappear in favour of Lockheart though.
This rumour says that the discless console will be available in the first half of 2019. So this console will have at least one year, maybe more, to sell before the launch of the new Xbox.

Sales of Xbox 360 quickly decreased after the launch of the Xbox One, why would it be different this time? The discless version will maybe be available for a short time after the launch of the next Xbox, but it will be for a really short time.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
Devs aren't complaining about it because fragmentation at day at the start of a gen hasn't happened -- as it pertains to performance -- and even with the differences in HDD size and availability at the start of last gen, developers DID complain, which is why we saw a much simplified offering with the launches of PS4 and XB1 at the start of this gen.

You seem to me to arguing from the perspective that, "MS is doing it therefore let me conjure up every contrived justification as to why its a good idea".

I'm arguing from a perspective of whether its a good or bad idea based on the pros and cons to every stakeholder, i.e. platform holders, pubs/devs, consumers.

So far, i only see pros for MS. Consumers get a semi-raw deal, as while they get a console that's cheaper, at the XB1X level it simply isn't next-gen, while for devs it quite an adjustment and additional hassle for development--which whether you want to believe it or not, will appear in the games.

Conceptually, releasing two skus at different performance levels is a worse idea than launching a single SKU and keeping all console owners on a level playing field... which incidentally was the entire point of consoles from the very moment they were conceived.

Anything that disrupts or adds complexity to that fixed hardware spec. is negative, from a dev perspective.

Anyway, you seem intent in dismissing these points, so there's little point in continuing this line of discourse.
I am basically OK with it because it is something that has worked this generation and I was one of the people that was skeptical about mid generation consoles and how they would work until I read that interview by Eurogamer with Mark Cerny.

I also think that Colbert got it right especially with Microsoft having the same API's for the consoles.....where I am somewhat at pains to understand is whether massively more work will be required to make streaming work. Microsoft has already shown that they can essentially port down even with a difference in console configuration. What happens when they share the same CPU, same memory configuration? It gets easier and it is very easy to port down because physics run the same and you wont have any compatibility issues (as pointed out by Cerny on why they did not have a Ryzen CPU), AI will run the same, you will get graphics at different resolutions and fidelity and better effects on the higher spec console.

Listening to Brad Sams, Microsoft will have a dev kit, possibly only one for both consoles and they want to have an environment where you can easily go from PC to console development without problems. This generation has shown us that this setup works, not only porting upwards with Sony, but also porting downwards with Forza Horizon 4.

If Sony went the same route, I would be looking to game on their higher spec console too. More choice will never be something bad for the consumer.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,514
Chicagoland
I would rather see Microsoft launch just 1 traditional next-gen console SKU, that isn't low-end like Lockhart. Not because it might confuse the market otherwise, because obviously the public understands this model well enough with iPhone. I'm thinking about the low-end version limiting the potential of Anaconda. I don't think it's good to have a 6 TF console and a 12+ TF console at the same time. It's not about 1080p vs 4K. As others have pointed out, fidelity and especially visual effects don't always scale well with resolution. Not from high to low anyway. If PS5 is within 20% of Anaconda, that'll be a win for Sony. Having the most powerful base console is more important than having the most powerful high-end version.
The fact that Xbox One X is 40% more powerful than PS4 Pro is far less important than OG PS4 being 40% more powerful than OG Xbox One at the beginning of this gen.

I'd much prefer to see Microsoft lift all boats than compromise all ships.

On another note, I want Cyberpunk 2077 and that new Harry Potter game to be spectacular on nextgen Xbox.

harry_potter.jpg
 

severianb

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
957
no they have their 4k boxes, BUT a majority of the market still uses 1080p tvs, even in 2020. given market relities it makes sense to offer them a cheaper option.
Yep, I have a LOT of friends and family who have 1080p and 720p LCDs and Plasmas over a decade old that are working perfectly and they have ZERO plans to replace them. The things were built to last. Much more robust than the old CRT TVs.

These people would be perfectly happy with a slightly upgraded X1X that could play next gen games on their old TV for a low price. The rest of us nuts who have no problem paying a lot more money for a small difference can have our $599 console to match our $3000 TV and game with smug superiority while living in mom's basement. Where's my Hot Pocket and Cheetos?
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
Yep, I have a LOT of friends and family who have 1080p and 720p LCDs and Plasmas over a decade old that are working perfectly and they have ZERO plans to replace them. The things were built to last. Much more robust than the old CRT TVs.

These people would be perfectly happy with a slightly upgraded X1X that could play next gen games on their old TV for a low price. The rest of us nuts who have no problem paying a lot more money for a small difference can have our $599 console to match our $3000 TV and game with smug superiority while living in mom's basement. Where's my Hot Pocket and Cheetos?
I knew of a lot of people whose families had moved to HD, but they themselves were playing via component cables in their room or campus using standard definition TV's. I was one of the people who for a long time in that generation played at home on a standard TV set and on HD when I carried the console to a friend's house.

Those same people are still streaming in HD instead of Ultra HD. So many people just want to play games using the cheapest means possible and companies will always meet them half way. Currently mainly gaming on a 4k TV, but I am one of the few gamers doing that in a circle of gamers that spans several hundred that I know.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
but then surely those people will be buying $149/$199 discless XB1S's in 2019 along with a gamepass sub - they aren't likely to be in the market for a next gen console?


I think a lot depends on whether its a 'low end' designed to undercut the PS5 price and a 'high end', or a straight PS5 competitor at a reasonable basline of performance at $399, and a 'super Xbox' at 499-599. The latter is fine I think as it offers choice for those with the money to spend, but the former risks holding things back due to lowest common denominator
 

SeanMN

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,185
Devs aren't complaining about it because fragmentation at day at the start of a gen hasn't happened -- as it pertains to performance -- and even with the differences in HDD size and availability at the start of last gen, developers DID complain, which is why we saw a much simplified offering with the launches of PS4 and XB1 at the start of this gen.

You seem to me to arguing from the perspective that, "MS is doing it therefore let me conjure up every contrived justification as to why its a good idea".

I'm arguing from a perspective of whether its a good or bad idea based on the pros and cons to every stakeholder, i.e. platform holders, pubs/devs, consumers.

So far, i only see pros for MS. Consumers get a semi-raw deal, as while they get a console that's cheaper, at the XB1X level it simply isn't next-gen, while for devs it quite an adjustment and additional hassle for development--which whether you want to believe it or not, will appear in the games.

Conceptually, releasing two skus at different performance levels is a worse idea than launching a single SKU and keeping all console owners on a level playing field... which incidentally was the entire point of consoles from the very moment they were conceived.

Anything that disrupts or adds complexity to that fixed hardware spec. is negative, from a dev perspective.

Anyway, you seem intent in dismissing these points, so there's little point in continuing this line of discourse.

I have the same concerns regarding a muilti sku approach as you've listed above. But, I think there are more pros to the situation than what you've looked at. There's also enough unknown information to cause our speculations to potentially be wildly off course.

Taking a step back, the first thing to consider, is that any and all pros/cons to this situation will have been researched by MS, backed up by large amounts of data none of us have access to. They're also likely to be in direct contact with devs, taking their feedback on these things. That's not to say companies can't make mistakes, but I think with the leadership at MS and Xbox, they are very aware and focused on getting things right.

Having to release a game on an additional sku does add complexity to the process. But, the degree of added complexity is something we don't know and therefore can't quantify. There are also pros to releasing on additional skus, that might outweigh the added complexity.

In the Brad Sams thread, Elenarie - a developer at Dice, commented that it wouldn't gimp next gen to have a lower powered sku and was positive regarding multiple skus.

A two sku strategy will likely be easier for devs next gen, than currently. First, I expect the two skus to be much more similiar in terms of architecture - having all components be similar, but just more in some cases on Anaconda vs Lockhart. Instead of today, where the memory system is different between the two platforms, minor architectural changes to the gpu, etc.

Secondly, the other part of the recent rumors is MS's work on Game Core, which seems to improve developer tools and make transitioning games to different platforms much easier.

Launching with multiple skus will allow MS to hit several price points targeted at key consumer groups. It's likely they're *targeting* to have both the least expensive and most powerful consoles next gen. This is a benefit to consumers because they have a choice in how they want to enter the new generation. For developers, they'll continue to develop on two Xbox skus, but the next gen platforms will be much more similar in terms of design - potentially meaning developing on 2 skus next gen is easier than it currently is. With their games launching on a platform with a more accessible price of entry, it means higher potential sales of their game, which is always a risk when launch on a new platform.

Just to be clear, I'm not sure if two skus is a good or bad idea, I just think with the right plan in place, it could be.
 

Deleted member 40133

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I really can't help but wonder if these "insiders" have some wires crossed and the differences in SKU's will be minor. I could kind of see Microsoft doing an "Arcade" Xbox2 that just has a standard HDD, while a "Pro" SKU maybe has an SSD and some other flourishes ALA the "Project Scorpio" edition Xbox One X.

See, now that I could get onboard with. It's weird that people forgot two different SKUs of hard drives were a thing from launch
 

Deleted member 5764

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See, now that I could get onboard with. It's weird that people forgot two different SKUs of hard drives were a thing from launch

Agreed! I'll add that I'm not convinced this is the case. It's just a scenario that I view as being possible. Personally, I'd prefer the setup I mentioned a page or two back. Make two similar machines but have a different focus on resolution. A $300 1080p box that upscales everything to 4K, and a $500 box that runs games at or near native 4K.
 

Deleted member 40133

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God damn I'm jonesing for some Sony leaks dammit, this is all so fascinating but I'm primarily invested in Sony and Nintendo. Also, that Harry Potter gif looks amazing, very animation based though if it was gameplay, I don't expect it to be snappy. Nemesis system built in your school rival would be awesome
 

eathdemon

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Oct 27, 2017
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Agreed! I'll add that I'm not convinced this is the case. It's just a scenario that I view as being possible. Personally, I'd prefer the setup I mentioned a page or two back. Make two similar machines but have a different focus on resolution. A $300 1080p box that upscales everything to 4K, and a $500 box that runs games at or near native 4K.
thats what this is, the only major difrence is gpu. both boxes will be using zen 2, and having simaler ram set ups.
 

msia2k75

Member
Nov 1, 2017
601
imo, if MS is doing that is because the 12TF or more that some people are demanding aren't possible within a reasonable price (399).
 

eathdemon

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I knew of a lot of people whose families had moved to HD, but they themselves were playing via component cables in their room or campus using standard definition TV's. I was one of the people who for a long time in that generation played at home on a standard TV set and on HD when I carried the console to a friend's house.

Those same people are still streaming in HD instead of Ultra HD. So many people just want to play games using the cheapest means possible and companies will always meet them half way. Currently mainly gaming on a 4k TV, but I am one of the few gamers doing that in a circle of gamers that spans several hundred that I know.
yup, so again if the majority are sticking with 1080p, why is it dumb to make a box for them again?
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
imo, if MS is doing that is because the 12TF or more that some people are demanding aren't possible within a reasonable price (399).
yup, and the irony is the 6 tfp gpu at 1080p, will be able to do more than the 12 to 14 tfp at 4k. some want 4k above all else, but I am the guy who chose this year to by a 1080p/144 monitor over 4k. I will not be buying 4k anytime soon.
 

Deleted member 12635

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God damn I'm jonesing for some Sony leaks dammit, this is all so fascinating but I'm primarily invested in Sony and Nintendo. Also, that Harry Potter gif looks amazing, very animation based though if it was gameplay, I don't expect it to be snappy. Nemesis system built in your school rival would be awesome
Be happy that you have something to discuss about. I don't see anything from the Sony side other they will do a controlled leak to counter all the Xbox chatter ...