PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!

Status
Not open for further replies.

wowbaggerBR

Member
Jan 6, 2020
82
Brazil
So big Navi and hbm is back eh 😬
I'd like to see HBM (and Imagination ray-tracing tech for that matter) just because it'd be a bit exotic. HBM2, PowerVR ray-tracing and custom SSD thingy are what we could get in terms of extraordinary hardware, since the days of crazy MIPS and PowerPC are now gone.

Which brings me to this:

Haha, same...

Not recent (uploaded in June 2013) but this is always interesting to watch and listen to the journey of how PS4 came about. Hope we get something similar for PS5 as well.
I watched this video a couple months ago and one thing that I remember clearly was Cerny saying that, when he started to ask what developers wanted for a new console, the thing that he heard the most was "no exotics", he even said something like "developers don't care if you can bring an exotic and powerful GPU that does ray tracing, they want something familiar".

But that was on the lead up to PS4, off course.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,316
I think everyone fully expects and wants the bolded to happen.....
Yes, give us up-ports and bring late gen games onto the new systems with enhancements but don't leave out next-gen exclusives and force teams to develop for 7 year old hardware when designing a next-gen game.
Who says this isn't them bringing forward games late gen games rather than them developing next gen games with old hardware in mind?

Who says their developers aren't also making next gen exclusives? (they are)

When it comes to cross gen, MS historically has 1) had in-house developers focus completely on new gen while a second studio ported backwards 2) brought old gen games forward with enhancements.

So I'm not sure why everyone has bought into the idea that they are hamstringing developers who are trying to make new gen games. That's not what was said.
 
Last edited:

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,733
At this point everyone would agree that if Sony reveals a big Navi (above 50 cu)as ps5 we will all be surprised ? Correct?
Not really. I mean the GitHub tests have no context, so only inference came out of them...no source weighed in on them stating that they claim they verified what they heard on the retail end. So...it's still up in the air.
 

KeRaSh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,840
I'd like to see HBM (and Imagination ray-tracing tech for that matter) just because it'd be a bit exotic. HBM2, PowerVR ray-tracing and custom SSD thingy are what we could get in terms of extraordinary hardware, since the days of crazy MIPS and PowerPC are now gone.

Which brings me to this:



I watched this video a couple months ago and one thing that I remember clearly was Cerny saying that, when he started to ask what developers wanted for a new console, the thing that he heard the most was "no exotics", he even said something like "developers don't care if you can bring an exotic and powerful GPU that does ray tracing, they want something familiar".

But that was on the lead up to PS4, off course.
I think what devs basically meant was: "For the love of all that is holy, don't make us code for something as complicated as a Cell processor anymore.
I don't think they're inherently against any kind of component that's not in a standard PC as long as it's not too complicated to program around.

I personally can't wait for what I like to call "silly season" to kick in once the reveal dates are officially announced. Bridging those weeks until we finally get all the info will be hard but hype threads ease that pain a little (as long as it's all fun and games and not dumb console warring).
I want gifs of Cerny rolling out on stage in a tub to present the PS5 specs and stuff like that.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
1,983
St Kitts
I don't think xCloud will be available on PlayStation. But I think in the future, Microsoft first party games will launch on PlayStation and will be available with Game Pass.


Absolutely. Game Pass PC and Game Pass Xbox are currently two different subscriptions, with different games on each. I think the same will be true for Game Pass PlayStation and Game Pass Nintendo.

Sony has allowed Electronic Arts to launch EA Access on PlayStation, I don't see why they wouldn't let Microsoft do the same with Game Pass.


Yes, absolutely. Because Sony will take 30% of the price of this subscription and also 30% on each MTX/DLC for those games. Game Pass would also only include a small part of the content available on PlayStation.
That makes absolutely no sense.
 
Last edited:

Dewin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
466
My hot-take is that Microsoft has a strategy that is divergent from the traditional "console generations" strategy that Sony has. They have mentioned previously that they are thinking in terms of generation-less, they are now promoting cross-gen titles for their latest hardware etc.

I feel that they have decided that it makes more sense to not compete with Sony head-to-head and instead change the rules of the game.

If Microsoft can make enough strides towards this more PC-centric forward-scaling + back-compatibility model alongside subs/streaming, then they will have a different playing field - one which is more familiar to them and one in which they hold several advantages over the traditional generational mindset of Sony.

I think it's genius from a business perspective and in many ways it's more pro-consumer as new experiences will be available to more consumers on a variety of hardware.

I personally think that Sony have this one chance to adapt (from the success of the PS4) and to take on-board the shifting eco-system (that Microsoft are driving) or they'll basically be irrelevant in 6 years time.

I think Sony know that they could be on the cusp of their last hurrah so the messaging and service offering has to be perfect. Any mis-step and their slide into irrelevance will be all but confirmed.

~*And I'm a huge PlayStation and PlayStation IP fan*~

I think there's enough hints from various industry folks that streaming will take off (and I see it happening faster than people think it will) and as such the dominance of local hardware will wane - which would be an existential threat to PlayStation, but wouldn't bother Microsoft who already have a different mental model of how to operate in a stream/cloud-centric world.

Will be interesting to see if the generations model will survive next go around.
I'm bookmarking this one. Irrelevant in 6 years time. Good god.
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
83
As an amusing aside, I noticed as I was going back through the Flight Sim thread that there were an awful lot of people in there saying that it is the first next gen game, but that’s a cross gen release too.
 

Alandring

Member
Feb 2, 2018
1,684
Switzerland
This benefits MS way more than Sony.
I think both will have benefits.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Gamepass is a subscription service. Much like PSnow is a subscription service.

And what sense would that make for sony, to have users paying for gamepass on their platform when they have their own equivalent in PSnow? Like do you also expect PSnow to be on the Xbox?
I don't think Microsoft will continue to release new consoles, so no, but it wouldn't be because they would be against it.

And I don't see the difference between Xbox Game Pass and EA Access (already available on PlayStation).
 

Dust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,365
Every time I ask myself "where is the god damn info?" I also remind myself it is middle of January and this shit is nearly year away...
 

Mr_Nothin

Member
Oct 29, 2017
113
Who says this isn't them bringing forward games late gen games rather than them developing next gen games with old hardware in mind?

Who says their developers aren't also making next gen exclusives? (they are)

When it comes to cross gen, MS historically has 1) had in-house developers focus completely on new gen while a second studio ported backwards 2) brought old gen games forward with enhancements.

So I'm not sure why everyone has bought into the idea that they are hamstringing developers who are trying to make new gen games. That's not what was said.
The one fact that we DO know is that games will be developed for both last gen and next gen for the 1st 1-2 years. Of course their devs are making next-gen exclusives as we speak but Spencer himself said that there wont be any next-gen exclusives for 1-2 years.

Also, it doesnt matter if its up ports or next-gen games dev'd with last gen in mind...my beef is with "no exclusives for the 1st 1-2 years"
 

DrKeo

Member
Mar 3, 2019
1,499
Israel
This benefits MS way more than Sony.
I actually don't see a reason why Sony or Nintendo will allow Xcloud on their platforms. It's an app that runs a lot of games without Sony or Nintendo seeing a single cent. Why would Sony sell you a PS5 at a loss if all you are going to do with it is pay MS 10$ a month?

IMO Xcloud will be everywhere - WebOS TVs, Android devices, phones, Chromecast-like sticks, tablets, IOS, Mac, PC, etc. But Sony and Nintendo platforms? It's like allowing another app store on your console, it goes against everything this industry relays on financially.
 
Last edited:

Bönthö

Member
May 25, 2018
33
I don't think Microsoft will continue to release new consoles, so no, but it wouldn't be because they would be against it.

And I don't see the difference between Xbox Game Pass and EA Access (already available on PlayStation).
Your points make absolutely no sense. Xbox Game Pass is a direct competitor to PS Now and these two services will definitely have some influence on which console a certain user will buy. EA Access is a much smaller platform. Why would either company want a very similar subscription service on their console when they already have that covered, while at the same time there's a very certain possibility that it can negatively affect the sales of your console and the subscriptions of your own service?

There really isn't a possibility that Game Pass on Playstation would be more profitable to Sony than just sticking to PS Now.
 

Midas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,341
I actually don't see a reason why Sony or Nintendo will allow Xcloud on their platforms. It's an app that runs a lot of games without Sony or Nintendo seeing a single cent. Why would Sony sell you a PS5 at a loss if all you are going to do with it is pay MS 10$ a month?
PlayStation Plus required. :P
 

DrKeo

Member
Mar 3, 2019
1,499
Israel

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,993
Europe
I actually don't see a reason why Sony or Nintendo will allow Xcloud on their platforms. It's an app that runs a lot of games without Sony or Nintendo seeing a single cent. Why would Sony sell you a PS5 at a loss if all you are going to do with it is pay MS 10$ a month?

IMO Xcloud will be everywhere - WebOS TVs, Android devices, phones, Chromecast-like sticks, tablets, IOS, Mac, PC, etc. But Sony and Nintendo platforms? It's like allowing another app store on your console, it goes against everything this industry relays on financially.
Well said.
Isn't the ME trilogy held back by the 360 anyway? :)


touché!
Yeah, those elevator rides...lol
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
83
The one fact that we DO know is that games will be developed for both last gen and next gen for the 1st 1-2 years. Of course their devs are making next-gen exclusives as we speak but Spencer himself said that there wont be any next-gen exclusives for 1-2 years.

Also, it doesnt matter if its up ports or next-gen games dev'd with last gen in mind...my beef is with "no exclusives for the 1st 1-2 years"
Nobody has said no exclusives for the first 1-2 years, they’ve said no exclusives for the next 1-2 years, starting from a year before the console comes out.
 

DavidDesu

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,519
Glasgow, Scotland
On cross-gen versions:

I might be misremembering but pretty sure in Jason Schreier's book the chapter on Dragon Age Inquisition mentions that being forced to develop for cross gen consoles contributed to development woes - and then the game barely sold on PS3 and 360 anyway. Shadow of Mordor's nemesis system couldn't be acheived on the last gen consoles but it was released for them anyway... Why bother?

I think in the last transition a lot of publishers were genuinely scared of the 'consoles are dying' narrative which wasn't helped by the WiiU flopping. It led to a really tentative launch in terms of software which wasn't necessary.

There was a strange 'PlayStation is doomed' thing then, too. We saw weird decisions like EA agreeing to put Titanfall on One/360 and not on PS4 and holding back that IP which could have become one of the biggest new ones of the gen.

I think these are missteps and to progress things in the industry we actually need harder generational transitions and for publishers to be bold about dropping last gen.
Totally agree. People keep mentioning the fact that when this gen started cross gen game sales just plummeted for last gen consoles in a way nobody quite expected. The new and fresh was far more appealing and we saw games sales skyrocket for the new systems even though the install base was only a fraction the size. It’s why Sony seems wise wanting to do that again and aiming for a clear generational distinction. People want to play new games with the best graphics and the new consoles will sell millions and with them millions of games. Microsoft’s strategy is the polar opposite for now and while it’s pro consumer in a way so is Sony’s. People paying all that money for next gen consoles want next gen games, not last gen games with bells on even if that is a nice proposition as well. Let’s just say I don’t see Sony becoming irrelevant in six years time, lol.
 

jesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,689
UK
The one fact that we DO know is that games will be developed for both last gen and next gen for the 1st 1-2 years. Of course their devs are making next-gen exclusives as we speak but Spencer himself said that there wont be any next-gen exclusives for 1-2 years.

Also, it doesnt matter if its up ports or next-gen games dev'd with last gen in mind...my beef is with "no exclusives for the 1st 1-2 years"
It's not the first 1 or 2 years that was said.
It was the next year or two, and that was said in November last year.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,971
Nobody has said no exclusives for the first 1-2 years, they’ve said no exclusives for the next 1-2 years, starting from a year before the console comes out.
Every time I see this posted, it doesn't make sense in the context of everything.

Why would it be a year before the console comes out? There is nothing to play Xbox games on but XBO and PC.

I would think it would be from the launch of the Series X, not before. They aren't making One X exclusives.

Unless they meant Halo Infinite, but that was always coming to XBO. Like TLoU 2 and GoT are for PS4.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
1,983
St Kitts
I think both will have benefits.


I don't think Microsoft will continue to release new consoles, so no, but it wouldn't be because they would be against it.

And I don't see the difference between Xbox Game Pass and EA Access (already available on PlayStation).
Ok...

PSNow: You pay a monthly subscription and you have access to games that you can either stream (if on another platform, PC, Android TV..etc) or download for direct play if you are on a Playstation.

GamePass: You pay a monthly subscription and you have access to games that you can either stream (using Xcloud) or download directly to a supported platform (PC/Xbox) for direct play.

I ask again, what business sense does it make for sony, to kill off their own "console-free service" and help MS build out theirs while at the same time shooting themselves in the foot by reducing how many games are sold on their platform since all gamers would have to do is just pay for a game pass subscription?
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
83
Every time I see this posted, it doesn't make sense in the context of everything.

Why would it be a year before the console comes out? There is nothing to play Xbox games on but XBO and PC.

I would think it would be from the launch of the Series X, not before. They aren't making One X exclusives.
The full quote was about all of the games over the next 1-2 years playing up and down the family of consoles, so it’s saying that 1st party games released this year on Xbox One will be playable on XSX.
 

DrKeo

Member
Mar 3, 2019
1,499
Israel
PlayStation Plus required. :P
It's not the first 1 or 2 years that was said.
It was the next year or two, and that was said in November last year.
Every time I see this posted, it doesn't make sense in the context of everything.

Why would it be a year before the console comes out? There is nothing to play Xbox games on but XBO and PC.

I would think it would be from the launch of the Series X, not before. They aren't making One X exclusives.

Unless they meant Halo Infinite, but that was always coming to XBO. Like TLoU 2 and GoT are for PS4.
IMO, the first real XSX exclusive will be Forza Horizon 5 in Q3 or Q4 2021. Such an open-world game combined with Playground's talent screams new CPU and SSD. It also fits Matt Booty's claim.
 

panda-zebra

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,826
|OT10| Will you be my Valentine?
my <3 to Mark Cerny

nintendo is red
sony is blue
terraflops aren't everything
but 9 won't do
I feel that they have decided that it makes more sense to not compete with Sony head-to-head and instead change the rules of the game.

...

I personally think that Sony have this one chance to adapt (from the success of the PS4) and to take on-board the shifting eco-system (that Microsoft are driving) or they'll basically be irrelevant in 6 years time.
I think that's bizarre tbh!

The future of gaming is not a box. It is a potato.
There is not future without a past. It's consumer friendly.
 

Ebtesam

Member
Apr 1, 2018
3,773
I don't think xCloud will be available on PlayStation. But I think in the future, Microsoft first party games will launch on PlayStation and will be available with Game Pass.
So they don't allow XCloud but they are okey with Game Pass??




Sony has allowed Electronic Arts to launch EA Access on PlayStation, I don't see why they wouldn't let Microsoft do the same with Game Pass.


Yes, absolutely. Because Sony will take 30% of the price of this subscription and also 30% on each MTX/DLC for those games. Game Pass would also only include a small part of the content available on PlayStation.
Game Pass is not only a first party service and MS won't share anything with Sony
 

Rumpestump

Member
Dec 8, 2018
662
IMO MS and Xbox are going generations-less because their main goal is not to sell consoles compared to PlayStation it’s as Nadella says to reach as many people and get them to invest in their services and stay invested regardless of device they prefer. With Xcloud not yet ready for a full launch across many devices and also become a bridge for late adopters or devices not capable of running real next gen games the most sensible thing to do then is to not go all in on next gen and instead go their current path and only develop cross gen games for the time being at least both giving cloud infrastructure time to mature and keep as many people as possible able to play their games and keep on being subscribed to their services even on “old” devices.

Off course that don’t mean they don’t want to sell consoles and will be thrilled if you choose an XsX as your primary device but they will not feel sad if you instead consume their games and services on a PC, Phone or on your TV without even a console plugged into it if that becomes an option or probably even competing platforms and instead of their success being tied to hardware adoption of their own products become the Netflix of games as Nadella puts it.

So while it means they are not going head to head with Sony who’s main goal instead is to transition people over to the new gen at an unprecedented pace investing in next gen only games to drive that transition that is just a side effect of following Nadella vision he set Xbox on and PlayStation having another.

Nadella vision for the whole of Microsoft and its services is to be available everywhere and just like how gmail is supported by outlook , how office is available on apple products I believe he would make Gamepass and Xcloud available on PS products the second Sony would let them.

The guy was thrilled to make PlayStation use and become their partner in developing cloud gaming on their azure platform and PlayStation equally thrilled to be a part of it.

These companies both Sony and Microsoft do what they believe is best and most profitable to their shareholders and if that is working together with companies competing in certain businesses areas it won’t make any difference.

And while it means their games like you say will be available for more consumers day one with not being build around next gen hardware to me personally, and I bet a lot of other enthusiasts and early adopters of the new hardware, would rather want developers to create experiences not previous possible and getting the most out of the new hardware I put several hundred dollars on this is not “pro-consumer”. While I am fine with a Halo with ray tracing and fast loading I can not stop thinking about what it could have been if it was not also developed with a “unusable” CPU as DF puts it themselves in a PC environment when speaking of the jaguar and a 40 times slower drive among the rest of the old hardware keeping innovation and creativity back.

And while I would have preferred MS going the “usual” route console manufacturers done and push next gen technologies and game development day one with Microsoft pushing services and cloud through their entire company it makes perfect sense for Xbox also having that as their main goal and thus this decision. I wouldn’t be surprised if they keep supporting the one X with first party games even in a couple of years outside the big AAA ones.

PlayStation is pushing hardware adoption instead and while being a “hardware” centric company perhaps should be reason enough personally I believe they have two other very good reasons for doing so with PlayStation 5.

1: They already have managed to sell more than a 100 million PS4 and coupled with its services already being far more lucrative than even the PS2. Getting as many of those customers invest in the next console and continue to also invest in their services tied to it will keep that revenue stream going for another seven years or how long the next generation is is basically a no brainer and also because...

2: They believe cloud gaming is not “ready” yet and there is quite a lot of things pointing at that from both the performance of their own cloud service, the launch of Stadia and even from Phil Spencer himself saying it’s not a replacement for local hardware yet and right now the phone in your pocket is what Xcloud will target.

You do remember that PS have had their cloud service up and running long before Xcloud was even mentioned by Xbox? And with PS also going forward able to use the same Azure servers as MS their is nothing stopping them from providing the exact same experience as any Xbox cloud platform or service should they want to invest more into that area than they currently are basically.

So for Sony to be “done” in six years they would not have to do a misstep they basically would need to go from mistake to mistakes year after year and never adapting to customer behavior while having the same cloud servers available and competing services already up and running (PSnow). This while having a far larger customer base from this generation already tied to their ecosystem both when it comes to retaining your digital library, backwards compatibility with discs among many other reasons to stay with them and compared to Xbox also being available and supported in (and completely dominant in several) far more markets makes this idea basically fan fiction.

I believe both will be tremendously successful next gen and reach even more “gamers” both than ever before and push gaming and technologies together in different ways and both have solid reasoning behind their strategies and while they differ there is nothing stopping either to adapt should the market point in a certain direction or the other.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,971
The full quote was about all of the games over the next 1-2 years playing up and down the family of consoles, so it’s saying that 1st party games released this year on Xbox One will be playable on XSX.
Ok, XBO games on Series X is BC. I've said it before, if it wasn't something different, Booty shouldn't have said anything. Him saying what he said implies they are doing something different. Even more different than 2 different versions.
IMO, the first real XSX exclusive will be Forza Horizon 5 in Q3 or Q4 2021. Such an open-world game combined with Playground's talent screams new CPU and SSD. It also fits Matt Booty's claim.
We shall see. I know some of us look at the holiday consoles launch as that year. Some look at it as Nov 2020 to Nov 2021 as a year.

And I agree it will still fit with what Booty said.

I'm thinking it's just games related, we'll probably see games from the new studios but some couldn't totally focus on next gen yet.

It just seems odd they will do things different, and only the first year or 2.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
1,983
St Kitts
The full quote was about all of the games over the next 1-2 years playing up and down the family of consoles, so it’s saying that 1st party games released this year on Xbox One will be playable on XSX.
If that allits saying then that is great.

But if MS does not have a single SeX AAA first-party exclusive in 2021? Then that is going to be a major problem for them.

You don't have to take my word for it, just wait and see.

Games always have and will always sell hardware.

Lets see how this hardware-free thing from MS really pans out
 

RoninStrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,513
Guys, new Cerny patent for Backward Compatibility. Granted 15 January 2020.


Backward compatibility through use of spoof clock and fine grain frequency control

 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
83
Ok, XBO games on Series X is BC. I've said it before, if it wasn't something different, Booty shouldn't have said anything. Him saying what he said implies they are doing something different. Even more different than 2 different versions.

We shall see. I know some of us look at the holiday consoles launch as that year. Some look at it as Nov 2020 to Nov 2021 as a year.

And I agree it will still fit with what Booty said.

I'm thinking it's just games related, we'll probably see games from the new studios but some couldn't totally focus on next gen yet.

It just seems odd they will do things different, and only the first year or 2.
BC could potentially be working differently here. For instance, currently when I want to play a 360 game on my One, I see the 360 loading screen, I see the old UI for notifications, perhaps this is what is currently planned for BC but games over the next year will run natively on XSX?

I don’t know, you may be right, but I hope you’re not. As I say, I do want to see games built around these new capabilities. I expect we’ll get clarification soon. I can’t imagine many journos will miss the chance to ask more about this.
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
83
But if MS does not have a single SeX AAA first-party exclusive in 2021? Then that is going to be a major problem for them.

You don't have to take my word for it, just wait and see.
I don’t have to take your word for it as I agree. I don’t expect it to happen, but I can’t rule it out yet based on what’s been said so far.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,796
Guys, new Cerny patent for Backward Compatibility. Granted 15 January 2020.


Backward compatibility through use of spoof clock and fine grain frequency control

That's ancient.
 

mangochutney

Member
Jun 11, 2018
196
Nadella vision for the whole of Microsoft and its services is to be available everywhere and just like how gmail is supported by outlook , how office is available on apple products I believe he would make Gamepass and Xcloud available on PS products the second Sony would let them.

The guy was thrilled to make PlayStation use and become their partner in developing cloud gaming on their azure platform and PlayStation equally thrilled to be a part of it.

These companies both Sony and Microsoft do what they believe is best and most profitable to their shareholders and if that is working together with companies competing in certain businesses areas it won’t make any difference.
Sony is not competing with Microsoft in B2B cloud services.

Sony using Azure is a natural partnership. It has little impact on either party - but it puts Sony's money in Microsoft's pocket and not the pocket of Amazon or other cloud providers so of course MS is happy. And Sony wouldn't use them if it wasn't a good deal, so of course they're happy.

Offering xCloud or Gamepass or PS Now on competing platforms is an unnatural partnership as they are direct competitors.

You can take the view 'hardware doesn't make the money, software does', and from that perspective having your product available in the widest possible way could net you the largest income - but people are time limited.

Consider you're Sony. Microsoft says 'hi, we want to put an xCloud app on PS5'. If people are playing xCloud or Gamepass titles they aren't playing Sony titles. And if they aren't playing Sony titles, they aren't giving you their money. Even with revenue sharing, you'd get a bigger chunk from your own sales.

That is why it won't happen.
 

Mr_Nothin

Member
Oct 29, 2017
113
Nobody has said no exclusives for the first 1-2 years, they’ve said no exclusives for the next 1-2 years, starting from a year before the console comes out.
It's not the first 1 or 2 years that was said.
It was the next year or two, and that was said in November last year.
Ok I read that part wrong but my point still stands. I'm not spending $500 on a next-gen console to play cross-gen games for up to a year.
I'm pro-exclusives & want to see the hardware exploited as much as possible. Designing games with last-gen in mind is a bummer. I want next-gen only games on my next-gen console.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.