PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!

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Kyolux

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
NCR, Canada
It would be cool if they pulled it off, especially if they could a better version of the PS2's PS1 BC enhancements, I would not get your hopes up though.
If they do have PS1 BC it will be a very nice fan service gesture because I don't think it would make them any money.
My hopes are definitely reasonably placed. I just don't like the downplay of old gens collections as if the 35 yo+ marketshare doesn't exist. ;)

But yeah, if it happens, it's definitely fan service.
 

Gero

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,595
New Leak from reddit:-This leak has some information matching with the previous reddit leak about the PS event and details. but the $79 part is making this seems fake but who knows bad things do come true what do you guys think. Check the leak details below.

Hey, all I've gotten some PlayStation 5 information from a job my gaming mate does. He works in one of the biggest European distributing and retail chains in the world.

Console:

  • PlayStation 5 will cost €399
  • Dualshock 5 will cost €54.99 (Black, White, Red, and Blue at launch)
  • Games suggested retail price at launch are €79.99 (Subject to change)
  • Several previous PlayStation 4 exclusive including God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, Marvel's Spider-Man and Uncharted 4 will get a rerelease under "PlayStation 5 Legacy Hits" games will be reprinted onto UHD Blu Rays for €33.99 making them PlayStation 5 only versions. This is due to including game fixes patches, PlayStation 5 support and downloadable content.
  • PlayStation 5 is backward compatibility out of the box no day 1 patches or software need to be downloaded to support this.
  • PlayStation 5 isn't just backward compatible with PlayStation 4 and VR software it will support PlayStation 1, 2 and 3 disc and digital download backward compatible
  • PlayStation 5 will support standard and 4K Blu-ray video playback
  • Retailers are expected to open the first wave of pre-orders in early March.
Marketing:

  • PlayStation 5 marketing message is about community and connections.
  • One of the trailers shows people playing PlayStation 5 around the world this includes America, England, Japan and Malaysia playing together in groups or online play.
  • The trailer includes backward compatibility, cross-play, and online play demonstration.
  • Games that seem to be showcased in this trailer describe to me as
    • New Crash Bandicoot game
    • Horizon Zero Dawn Sequel
    • Spider-Man swinging in new york
    • The Last of Us Part 2
    • Ghost of Tsushima
    • Third-person action Viking game
    • Space Japanese action game
    • 3D Platformer with robots
    • A fantasy medieval game that has a dragon blowing fire on a bridge
    • A batch of PlayStation 2,3 and 4 footage (Metal Gear Solid, Tekken 3, Ape Escape 3, Grand Theft Auto Vice City, ICO, Infamous and Killzone 2, Uncharted 4, Bloodborne, Knack, God of War)
    • Street Fighter title looks more realistic than Street Fighter V
    • A futuristic medieval game that has sword combat
399? yeah not happening
 

CerealBro1

Member
Jan 9, 2020
46
On the backwards compatibility argument, I am honestly still fairly certain that they will not have BC for older systems. Looking at it from their prospective, they released the Playstation Classic in Holiday 2018 to try to cash in on nostalgia (and lets be honest here, probably to see if backwards compatibility is actually a profitable endeavor with hard numbers before investing lots of money into it) and the system completely crashed and burned in terms of sales and reviews. It was marked down 60% less than 2 months after it came out, and over a year later, it can still be found new at a lot of Gamestop and Target stores for $20, and Gamestop stores have also stopped taking it for trade in. That just shows Sony that backwards compatibility is not worth the amount of time that would be needed for developing an emulator and then testing all of the games (and also getting them re-licensed for their store to make money off of them) to ensure playability. Also, looking at things from the consumer perspective, the PS Classic used a crappy open source emulator that had poor accuracy and performance, and the PS2 Classics on the PS4 was abandoned after just a couple years and an abysmal 51 games being listed because Sony's emulator was apparently not accurate enough to emulate a lot of games, and also had the developers/publishers do a lot of the heavy lifting to get things working.

I am honestly yet to see any evidence that the PS5 will play games from the PS3, 2 or 1, especially not from the disk. I am seriously hoping that it's something that they do though, since I would love to be able to easily play a lot of the games exclusive to the older Playstation systems without having to hunt for an older system for what would be just a large handful of games. I would much rather buy a PS5 thats backwards compatible with all older generations and be happy that I can play all the new Sony games for the next 7 years as well as more than 20 years of games
 

MykhellMikado

Member
Jan 13, 2020
407
On the backwards compatibility argument, I am honestly still fairly certain that they will not have BC for older systems. Looking at it from their prospective, they released the Playstation Classic in Holiday 2018 to try to cash in on nostalgia (and lets be honest here, probably to see if backwards compatibility is actually a profitable endeavor with hard numbers before investing lots of money into it) and the system completely crashed and burned in terms of sales and reviews. It was marked down 60% less than 2 months after it came out, and over a year later, it can still be found new at a lot of Gamestop and Target stores for $20, and Gamestop stores have also stopped taking it for trade in. That just shows Sony that backwards compatibility is not worth the amount of time that would be needed for developing an emulator and then testing all of the games (and also getting them re-licensed for their store to make money off of them) to ensure playability. Also, looking at things from the consumer perspective, the PS Classic used a crappy open source emulator that had poor accuracy and performance, and the PS2 Classics on the PS4 was abandoned after just a couple years and an abysmal 51 games being listed because Sony's emulator was apparently not accurate enough to emulate a lot of games, and also had the developers/publishers do a lot of the heavy lifting to get things working.

I am honestly yet to see any evidence that the PS5 will play games from the PS3, 2 or 1, especially not from the disk. I am seriously hoping that it's something that they do though, since I would love to be able to easily play a lot of the games exclusive to the older Playstation systems without having to hunt for an older system for what would be just a large handful of games. I would much rather buy a PS5 thats backwards compatible with all older generations and be happy that I can play all the new Sony games for the next 7 years as well as more than 20 years of games
You’re looking at the wrong cost analysis. TheY have to continue to compete with GamePass and part of GamePasses total number of games are their BC ones. So unless they want severely drop the total number of games of PSNow and look like an even worse value they need to either:

A: continue building PS3 servers and data centers to support PSNow indefinitely or

B: create official working emulators (which they already did for PS1 and PS2 games) and launch only the games they can get working easily similar to what they did with Xbox One back compat.

As for relicensing, there are probably not nearly as many which need to be relicensed as we would think. There’s a good chance that if they had a digital release on PS3 then they are good for PS4 and would be no different than the hundreds out games they already have on PSNow.
At the very least I would think they would be able to get the games they currently have on PSNow to
 
Mar 18, 2018
23
On the backwards compatibility argument, I am honestly still fairly certain that they will not have BC for older systems. Looking at it from their prospective, they released the Playstation Classic in Holiday 2018 to try to cash in on nostalgia (and lets be honest here, probably to see if backwards compatibility is actually a profitable endeavor with hard numbers before investing lots of money into it) and the system completely crashed and burned in terms of sales and reviews. It was marked down 60% less than 2 months after it came out, and over a year later, it can still be found new at a lot of Gamestop and Target stores for $20, and Gamestop stores have also stopped taking it for trade in. That just shows Sony that backwards compatibility is not worth the amount of time that would be needed for developing an emulator and then testing all of the games (and also getting them re-licensed for their store to make money off of them) to ensure playability. Also, looking at things from the consumer perspective, the PS Classic used a crappy open source emulator that had poor accuracy and performance, and the PS2 Classics on the PS4 was abandoned after just a couple years and an abysmal 51 games being listed because Sony's emulator was apparently not accurate enough to emulate a lot of games, and also had the developers/publishers do a lot of the heavy lifting to get things working.

I am honestly yet to see any evidence that the PS5 will play games from the PS3, 2 or 1, especially not from the disk. I am seriously hoping that it's something that they do though, since I would love to be able to easily play a lot of the games exclusive to the older Playstation systems without having to hunt for an older system for what would be just a large handful of games. I would much rather buy a PS5 thats backwards compatible with all older generations and be happy that I can play all the new Sony games for the next 7 years as well as more than 20 years of games
As much as many people keep going on about "full" BC for PS5, I agree with you here. History is not on Sony's side when it comes to support for older systems, not just video games.

If they launch with what looks to be downclocked hardware support/emulation for PS4, that will be enough. The current PS4 owners can keep their library going forward and it fits into this potential ecosystem approach.

If you are going to try to make backward compatibility a feature, the way it hits hard is if you go hard and make it big and bold. Phil Spencer announcing it on stage and saying that 100 games would be playable by end of year was a bold first step when it was first said to be impossible.

If Sony was to do that move at the PS5 launch announcement, it could be seen as a half step and a middling attempt. I think Jim Ryan knows that he has downplayed BC in the past however, past is the past and even being a Xbox guy myself, I can't wait to see which way Jim will reveal BC
 

Kyolux

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
NCR, Canada
As much as many people keep going on about "full" BC for PS5, I agree with you here. History is not on Sony's side when it comes to support for older systems, not just video games.

If they launch with what looks to be downclocked hardware support/emulation for PS4, that will be enough. The current PS4 owners can keep their library going forward and it fits into this potential ecosystem approach.

If you are going to try to make backward compatibility a feature, the way it hits hard is if you go hard and make it big and bold. Phil Spencer announcing it on stage and saying that 100 games would be playable by end of year was a bold first step when it was first said to be impossible.

If Sony was to do that move at the PS5 launch announcement, it could be seen as a half step and a middling attempt. I think Jim Ryan knows that he has downplayed BC in the past however, past is the past and even being a Xbox guy myself, I can't wait to see which way Jim will reveal BC
History? PS4 is the only console that didn't launch with BC. PS2 and PS3 launched with full BC. PS3 dropped it partly due to cost though.
 

Malkier

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,015
On the backwards compatibility argument, I am honestly still fairly certain that they will not have BC for older systems. Looking at it from their prospective, they released the Playstation Classic in Holiday 2018 to try to cash in on nostalgia (and lets be honest here, probably to see if backwards compatibility is actually a profitable endeavor with hard numbers before investing lots of money into it) and the system completely crashed and burned in terms of sales and reviews. It was marked down 60% less than 2 months after it came out, and over a year later, it can still be found new at a lot of Gamestop and Target stores for $20, and Gamestop stores have also stopped taking it for trade in. That just shows Sony that backwards compatibility is not worth the amount of time that would be needed for developing an emulator and then testing all of the games (and also getting them re-licensed for their store to make money off of them) to ensure playability. Also, looking at things from the consumer perspective, the PS Classic used a crappy open source emulator that had poor accuracy and performance, and the PS2 Classics on the PS4 was abandoned after just a couple years and an abysmal 51 games being listed because Sony's emulator was apparently not accurate enough to emulate a lot of games, and also had the developers/publishers do a lot of the heavy lifting to get things working.

I am honestly yet to see any evidence that the PS5 will play games from the PS3, 2 or 1, especially not from the disk. I am seriously hoping that it's something that they do though, since I would love to be able to easily play a lot of the games exclusive to the older Playstation systems without having to hunt for an older system for what would be just a large handful of games. I would much rather buy a PS5 thats backwards compatible with all older generations and be happy that I can play all the new Sony games for the next 7 years as well as more than 20 years of games
You can't seriously be comparing backwards compatibility to PS classic. I'd rather pay $100 to unlock backwards compatibility on my PS4 then buy a junk novelty toy with a handful of games. Problem with Sony is they want to turn BC into profitability somehow and it's just not that popular and probably why they ditched the PS2 games. At best it's a console selling point, if they want to profit they should work on getting old games on PSN with minimal effort.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,915
The way Sony has treated bc since PS3, I would expect questionable treatment of bc for PS5. I would fully expect a Nintendo style approach. Require repurchase of games you already bought on PS3/PSP/Vita and no support for discs at all. That said, I hope for a more Microsoft approach and hold out hope for full Playstation bc support. Too much of their library is no longer easily playable. If only for preservation everyone should hope for this.
I wouldn't.

BC will start with PS5 from the very beginning. I would expect it to be on par with their previous BC efforts.

On the backwards compatibility argument, I am honestly still fairly certain that they will not have BC for older systems. Looking at it from their prospective, they released the Playstation Classic in Holiday 2018 to try to cash in on nostalgia (and lets be honest here, probably to see if backwards compatibility is actually a profitable endeavor with hard numbers before investing lots of money into it) and the system completely crashed and burned in terms of sales and reviews. It was marked down 60% less than 2 months after it came out, and over a year later, it can still be found new at a lot of Gamestop and Target stores for $20, and Gamestop stores have also stopped taking it for trade in. That just shows Sony that backwards compatibility is not worth the amount of time that would be needed for developing an emulator and then testing all of the games (and also getting them re-licensed for their store to make money off of them) to ensure playability. Also, looking at things from the consumer perspective, the PS Classic used a crappy open source emulator that had poor accuracy and performance, and the PS2 Classics on the PS4 was abandoned after just a couple years and an abysmal 51 games being listed because Sony's emulator was apparently not accurate enough to emulate a lot of games, and also had the developers/publishers do a lot of the heavy lifting to get things working.
Right, cheap cash grabs because of how things were this gen. BC wasn't a priority this gen, so their efforts reflected that.

The PS5 is going out the gate with BC.

As much as many people keep going on about "full" BC for PS5, I agree with you here. History is not on Sony's side when it comes to support for older systems, not just video games.

If they launch with what looks to be downclocked hardware support/emulation for PS4, that will be enough. The current PS4 owners can keep their library going forward and it fits into this potential ecosystem approach.

If you are going to try to make backward compatibility a feature, the way it hits hard is if you go hard and make it big and bold. Phil Spencer announcing it on stage and saying that 100 games would be playable by end of year was a bold first step when it was first said to be impossible.

If Sony was to do that move at the PS5 launch announcement, it could be seen as a half step and a middling attempt. I think Jim Ryan knows that he has downplayed BC in the past however, past is the past and even being a Xbox guy myself, I can't wait to see which way Jim will reveal BC
History would say otherwise, actually. When Sony prioritized BC, it has been fairly good. That will be the case with PS5.

The Jim Ryan comment is meaningless to analyze. It is typical corporation PR for something they aren't involved with. MS did a similar thing with VR. It is nothing.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,345
I don't think that Sony is aiming for the tiny fraction of people that still have PS1 and PS2 discs (or even PS3) with backwards compatibility. It's about reintroducing those old titles to another generation and above everything create the illusion of a giant Playstation ecosystem that spans multiple generations (even if only a fraction of old titles are available).
How do they do that if its only 1 or 2 games every 6 months or so. I'm not sure how they can even claim its backwards compatible if it doesn't work with the discs.
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,784
As much as many people keep going on about "full" BC for PS5, I agree with you here. History is not on Sony's side when it comes to support for older systems, not just video games.

If they launch with what looks to be downclocked hardware support/emulation for PS4, that will be enough. The current PS4 owners can keep their library going forward and it fits into this potential ecosystem approach.

If you are going to try to make backward compatibility a feature, the way it hits hard is if you go hard and make it big and bold. Phil Spencer announcing it on stage and saying that 100 games would be playable by end of year was a bold first step when it was first said to be impossible.

If Sony was to do that move at the PS5 launch announcement, it could be seen as a half step and a middling attempt. I think Jim Ryan knows that he has downplayed BC in the past however, past is the past and even being a Xbox guy myself, I can't wait to see which way Jim will reveal BC
As much as many people keep going on about "full" BC for PS5, I agree with you here. History is not on Sony's side when it comes to support for older systems, not just video games.

If they launch with what looks to be downclocked hardware support/emulation for PS4, that will be enough. The current PS4 owners can keep their library going forward and it fits into this potential ecosystem approach.

If you are going to try to make backward compatibility a feature, the way it hits hard is if you go hard and make it big and bold. Phil Spencer announcing it on stage and saying that 100 games would be playable by end of year was a bold first step when it was first said to be impossible.

If Sony was to do that move at the PS5 launch announcement, it could be seen as a half step and a middling attempt. I think Jim Ryan knows that he has downplayed BC in the past however, past is the past and even being a Xbox guy myself, I can't wait to see which way Jim will reveal BC
Ps1 classics on PSN sold a lot on ps3,psp psvita. Sony does not have a restricted view as to why the ps1 mini failed while nintendo mini sold a lot, they know the product was not received well due to the quality of it and there's nothing related that there's no nostalgia for ps1 games. And PS4 is the only console release until today with horrible bc.
 

Liabe Brave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
985
The formula:

52 (CU)*64(No. of stream processors per CU)*1.8 (clock frequency)*2 (FP32?! I am not sure about this one) = 11980.8 GFlops or 11.98 TF
I believe the final x2 is number of ops per clock.

Due to change in block layout, Navi GPUs typically announce not number of CUs anymore, but number of WGPs. Each is equal to two CUs. So in new consoles, it'll be simpler to remember the formula as this:

Active WGPs * Clock * 256

I just want us to have a discussion, this a speculation thread as far as I’m aware, even if that speculation is at times unsubstantiated or unlikely some people may want to discuss it.
Fine, but no one's going to be forced to discuss it. They're allowed to simply say "false" if that's their opinion. If you want to talk about it, just do so; anyone else who's interested will join in.

I said that link which you provided was calculating most played based on only 2 million players, the list wasn’t about PUBG only was it? I said number of active unique xbox live users was tens of millions bigger than what that list is based on. ...All the numbers are to put your link into perspective and how much margin of error there could be.
A 2m sample on a 65m population is huge. If I remember right, the margin of error for a 99% confidence interval would be less than a tenth of a percent.
 
Mar 18, 2018
23
History? PS4 is the only console that didn't launch with BC. PS2 and PS3 launched with full BC. PS3 dropped it partly due to cost though.
Apologies, i should have been more clear about what i was referring to.

The Playstation Mini was a atrocious money grab that showed no love or care for what they were doing.

The PlayStation 2 hardware BC was great, PS3 BC was good for the original release hardware, then they made the slim and advertised it here in Australia as still being backwards compatible fully with ps2 games. I watched that happen as friends dealt with angry parents.

Considering the forward facing approach of Sony this generation and the fact that it has worked wonderfully in their favour, I don't trust them swinging for anything more than what can be achieved easily and for a reasonable cost.

PS3 emulators have had individual patching written over years to get the results we see in the pc emulation today. To build upon that is a people power cost and engineering effort that is not worth it, in my mind.

I would love to be proven wrong.
 

MykhellMikado

Member
Jan 13, 2020
407
Apologies, i should have been more clear about what i was referring to.

The Playstation Mini was a atrocious money grab that showed no love or care for what they were doing.

The PlayStation 2 hardware BC was great, PS3 BC was good for the original release hardware, then they made the slim and advertised it here in Australia as still being backwards compatible fully with ps2 games. I watched that happen as friends dealt with angry parents.

Considering the forward facing approach of Sony this generation and the fact that it has worked wonderfully in their favour, I don't trust them swinging for anything more than what can be achieved easily and for a reasonable cost.

PS3 emulators have had individual patching written over years to get the results we see in the pc emulation today. To build upon that is a people power cost and engineering effort that is not worth it, in my mind.

I would love to be proven wrong.
realistically, how much money and time do you think it would cost to create a working PS3 emulator that works with 70% of the PS3 library?
 

TetraGenesis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,940
It was probably already said but I’m laughing at the |OT10| title likely being the one about transitioning people from |OT9| at a rate never seen, when it’s actually so delayed hahahaha

(Not a problem though! They can take all the time they need)
 
Mar 18, 2018
23
realistically, how much money and time do you think it would cost to create a working PS3 emulator that works with 70% of the PS3 library?
Okay, i will admit, this is outside my wheelhouse for video games. If it were for security systems, Recording and transcoding 20 years of video codecs in one system, then i could help but what the hell.

I could not ball park the people power away from the fact you would first need to lock down to a hardware spec for the emulator. That would require a damn good lead engineer and some people who could help sift through the documentation for the Cell. Not impossible at all, just time consuming.

I think the cost would be in a approach similar to Microsoft, sit down and test every game. See where the issues are and work out how to best apply those solutions. Go with MS approach of custom changes to titles as needs be? Make a one size fits all emulator and only release what works? Only those working on it would be able to make that call.

I believe Mark Cerny or his hardware team would be up to task on this. Do I believe that Sony would invest to pull this off for PS3 BC? Nope but again, I would love to be proven wrong and I would eat crow happily if PS5 BC is more than PS4
 

TheRealTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,587
anyone got the old PS4 devkit UI

I remember long ago (maybe after the Reveal event) we saw it

just curious for comparison sake (consumer ui vs devkit ui)
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,139
Apologies, i should have been more clear about what i was referring to.

The Playstation Mini was a atrocious money grab that showed no love or care for what they were doing.

The PlayStation 2 hardware BC was great, PS3 BC was good for the original release hardware, then they made the slim and advertised it here in Australia as still being backwards compatible fully with ps2 games. I watched that happen as friends dealt with angry parents.

Considering the forward facing approach of Sony this generation and the fact that it has worked wonderfully in their favour, I don't trust them swinging for anything more than what can be achieved easily and for a reasonable cost.

PS3 emulators have had individual patching written over years to get the results we see in the pc emulation today. To build upon that is a people power cost and engineering effort that is not worth it, in my mind.

I would love to be proven wrong.
The fat 60GB PS3 released in Europe/AU was equivalent to the 80GB PS3 released in the states.
It still had PS2 hardware, but I think the GS was emulated using PS3 GPU.
There were some games that didn't work - but I never had any issues with my library - except for Guitar Hero - but that was PS2 controller/input related.

The slim released years later with PS2 hardware fully removed.
 

Kreten

Member
Nov 16, 2019
221
I believe the final x2 is number of ops per clock.

Due to change in block layout, Navi GPUs typically announce not number of CUs anymore, but number of WGPs. Each is equal to two CUs. So in new consoles, it'll be simpler to remember the formula as this:

Active WGPs * Clock * 256


Fine, but no one's going to be forced to discuss it. They're allowed to simply say "false" if that's their opinion. If you want to talk about it, just do so; anyone else who's interested will join in.


A 2m sample on a 65m population is huge. If I remember right, the margin of error for a 99% confidence interval would be less than a tenth of a percent.
Hmm just looked this up and you are right. Didn’t think that it would be anywhere near <1%. I imagined it would be more like 20%
 

freshyk

Member
Jan 15, 2020
21
Have there been any rumors or informed speculation about the new consoles using tech from the new Ryzen mobile APUs?
 

Liabe Brave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
985
Hmm just looked this up and you are right. Didn’t think that it would be anywhere near <1%. I imagined it would be more like 20%
Lots of stuff in statistics is deeply counterintuitive. In any case, I think you're probably on the right side of the argument regarding PUBG's popularity anyway. Being 17th-most-played means you're in the top 1% of games for the system. Being 1st would mean a lot more players, sure, but nobody in the top echelon is anything less than wildly successful.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
2,173
St Kitts
Does variable rate shading 2 require high teraflops or could it be done on something like a 4 TF GPU.

How does it work exactly.
It can be done on anything.

To put it simply, its a method of shading pixel (or groups of pixels) on screen at different levels of fidelity (or resolutions). So imagine you are playing a game at native 4k. Now imagine drawing a circle on your screen. Everything inside that circle is shaded at max resolution and fidelity. Everything outside the circle is shaded at half rez or quarter rez.

Thats kinda how the concept works. Its basically a way of hitting a set native rez while using less power than you would have otherwise needed to use.Kinda like reconstruction.
 

EdReedFan20

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,509
One thing I haven't seen discussed in leaks regarding BC is CD support/playback. Unless there's something being done via software, there's no way PS1 discs could be read. If you recall, PS4 never had CD support (to the chagrin of many prior to launch). Also, technically haven't seen DVD support brought up either, which would be required for PS2 games.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,756
Tokyo
One thing I haven't seen discussed in leaks regarding BC is CD support/playback. Unless there's something being done via software, there's no way PS1 discs could be read. If you recall, PS4 never had CD support (to the chagrin of many prior to launch). Also, technically haven't seen DVD support brought up either, which would be required for PS2 games.
The PS4 does play DVDs though, so its possible.
 
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