PS5 and Xbox Series speculation |OT11| Cry Havoc and Let Slip the Dogs of War [NEW NEWS, NEW THREAD - CHECK OUT THE STAFF POST]

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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,345
It's not hard to understand really. Sony was aiming for $399 for the retail price of the PS5, but costs of parts pushed them over to $450.
Also, the fact that they are spending more money on cooling suggests a much higher clock rate of 2 Ghz as well as a much higher power draw.

That essentially means that the Github leak of 9,216 TF would be ballpark.

It's not rocket science... ;-p

I just see the evidence piling up that this is what Sony has been aiming for all along because of cost, but it cost them more than they expected.

Remember: They have to design these consoles years ago, so prices flux over time and it's going to cost them more now as we get a clearer picture before launch.
You are confusing BOM and retail price.
Sony was aiming for a BOM of $400 so they would have taken a lost no matter what at $400 retail .
This $50 can effect the retail price or it might not we have to wait and see.
 

chromatic9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,547
I dont understand why a 9.2 TF PS5 = gloom and doom. Given their Brand recognition and global presence, a competitively priced 9.2TF PS5 sells out at launch and beyond.

IF Github turns out wrong (dated information), then all the better. But 9.2 TF, does not mean doom for Sony I think.
I don't think so either, but not the clean sweep in some markets. I'd be hesitant myself if XSX is 30% better for a similar price though.

Clocking a part higher to bridge a large gap is not all that appealing to me. These GPUs TF flop number go hand in hand with the other specs like rops and texture units so while some performance can be gained the reality is the gap is still very large and will show more over time, a base 8.Xtf is about 40%, overclocking to 9.2tf is just masking it for a while. XSX GPU will; no doubt be speced accordingly.

If Sony has got the heat and noise down then fair enough, I certainly think this 7nm refresh can achieve some higher clocks than before but still wouldn't want to jump in early and for me Sony has form in PS4 and PS4 Pro being noisy and the PS3 60gb Phat had expensive cooling for a hot 170w system but mine turned into a jet engine 2 years in and the BGA failed with the YLOD like many did. At least they lasted longer than 360s in general.
 
Dec 10, 2019
298
Another day, more people losing their minds...

Just wait for the damn reveal. Don't worry so much people...the machines will be priced appropriately for what they are.

If there was for some reason a 3+ TF gap in power which translated to a significant real-world performance differential, you can expect the lower powered console to be priced around $50 to $100 cheaper than the more powerful console. More than likely however, both PS5 and XSX will be nearly identical performance-wise and priced identically.
Could be 5 more months
 

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,266
I have to agree with this. Sony's acting like a team ahead in the 4th quarter desperately trying not to lose instead of going out there to win. At the very least, given what is said in that Bloomberg article, some within Sony see being endlessly secretive is becoming unproductive.
I agree and was kind of surprised when I read that in the Bloomberg article, specifically the "internal consternation" about the way things are going in terms of the reveal plan.

It seems like back in 2013 there was a clear plan. The big February event, which was teased in Janaury. Constant updates throughout the year. Big E3 blowout. It felt like they had more conviction at that time.
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,499
Im not gatekeeping you, but is impossible to have a discuss with you because the end result is always the same.
It is one thing to want to know more about the product and another thing to have a meltdown over it, it is not the first time he has one.
what meltdown? lol. I am discussing the latest news in a level headed manner without cursing, insulting other users, or arguing in bad faith to make my point. Which btw is par for the course in this thread. The only thing i have done is make an argument you dont like. the title of the article literally states that Sony is struggling to price it. you can feel free to spin it as a positive but this is NOT a positive article. just sweeping all concerns under the rug is not going to make this all go away.

besides, this is literally the first piece of news we have had in over two months. Came direct from inside Sony. if we cant discuss this what can we discuss?
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,086
Seattle
Honest question: if we knew everything about the new Xbox(es), PS5, and the games for both that will be available this year, including gameplay video, would that make the wait for their holiday launch easier, harder, or not change anything? Explain your reasoning if possible.
 

Seshumaru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
886
The Netherlands
If there was for some reason a 3+ TF gap in power which translated to a significant real-world performance differential, you can expect the lower powered console to be priced around $50 to $100 cheaper than the more powerful console.
While i do understand what your saying...its not always about comparison. I want best bang for my bucks and a system that stays "relevant" for the next 7 years. Meaning if i think that there is a chance that a pro version can comes out, ill skip PS5 so fast. If for some reason they think they should release cross gen games. Than also Skip!
 

Betty

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,467
Starting to feel like a February event is definitely not happening, which Klee said there would be.
 

Snakeeee

Member
Jan 20, 2019
3,746
what meltdown? lol. I am discussing the latest news in a level headed manner without cursing, insulting other users, or arguing in bad faith to make my point. Which btw is par for the course in this thread. The only thing i have done is make an argument you dont like. the title of the article literally states that Sony is struggling to price it. you can feel free to spin it as a positive but this is NOT a positive article. just sweeping all concerns under the rug is not going to make this all go away.

besides, this is literally the first piece of news we have had in over two months. Came direct from inside Sony. if we cant discuss this what can we discuss?
You could have actually discuss the info that they are going for a better colling solution for example.
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,499
Good. Lol.

You are confusing BOM and retail price.
Sony was aiming for a BOM of $400 so they would have taken a lost no matter what at $400 retail .
This $50 can effect the retail price or it might not we have to wait and see.
I distinctly recall sony saying that they needed to sell a first party game with every console to break even on the PS4. We know the PS4 BOM was $380. So retail and distribution costs must have been $80.

If the BOM alone is $450, we are looking at at least a $530 console. you would think sony would be willing to take a $30 loss at $499 and only have to sell 1 first party game for every 2 consoles sold, but they dont feel confident going up against a $499 xbox series x and i dont know why other than the possibility of a 9 tflops $499 console.

if they have to go with $450 because of worse specs, they will have to make up $80 which means selling more than 1 first party game per console which can get very tricky, but not impossible if they launch with horizon and gran turismo 7.
 

metalgear89

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,325
Ps+ combined with the fact that this isn't going to be an long term issue, i don't see why $399 would be a problem for the first few months.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,196
$399 will be next gen’s 8GB GDDR5 moment.
If Sony manage to package:
3.2Ghz 8C/16T Zen 2, 9.2TF Navi w/ RT, 16GB GDDR6 and 1TB super fast SSD

For $399 then that is a very compelling product even if we here would rather have a 12TF $499 version. The average buyer is way more price conscious than we are. Such a machine would probably sell better than the one we want.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,343
I remember reading somewhere that Layden and Ryan differed on whether big events were necessary for communication (Layden didn’t think they were). It makes me wonder if the Wired articles were part of Layden’s marketing strategy for PS5, which Ryan didn’t approve of and possibly led to Layden leaving or being forced to resign.

Layden didn’t have a big reveal planned, so as of his departure last year there wasn’t a PS Meeting-type event in the works. Ryan wants a big conference reveal so now they’re hurrying to put one together (which would explain the delay). Just a random thought.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,345
Yes it would be over a $100 but over a $100 for a few months might not be a problem if it's short term which was my point .
So a extra $50 for 4 or 5 months while limiting the amount they make can work .
Truth is it's only this gen where Sony or MS eat small losses but now they also have way more way to make money .( no one is thinking consoles are dead\dying)
I wonder if they would go back to PS2\360 where they lost $100 .
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,499
You could have actually discuss the info that they are going for a better colling solution for example.
But i did talk about their cooling last night around midnight when this article first went up. in three different posts.

More like 9 tflops. You needed a $520+ bom to get bigger die with even sophisticated cooling to get more than 10.

450 is only $70 more than the ps4 bom. Half of that is going into ssd alone. Leaving only $35 for ram, bigger gpu and cooling.
Article mentions they cooling solution is unusually expensive. They are hitting 2.0 ghz.

Guthub was real folks.

$399 9 tflops console with 12 gb ram is what we are getting.
But we don't know the bom of the Xbox series x. Ram is more expensive, apu fab on 7nm is more expensive, cooling is more expensive, ssd is more expensive and they only have $70 more to play with. We know they are going all in on the ssd which doesn't leave much for the apu.

I just realized that Sony is probably concerned about the Lockhart. Not the xsex.
the discussion has since moved and ive replied to people talking about other things. i havent even ranted in a solo post. im simply replying to others. again, i dont understand the gatekeeping.
 

Seshumaru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
886
The Netherlands

TRios Zen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
130
I don't think so either, but not the clean sweep in some markets. I'd be hesitant myself if XSX is 30% better for a similar price though.

Clocking a part higher to bridge a large gap is not all that appealing to me. These GPUs TF flop number go hand in hand with the other specs like rops and texture units so while some performance can be gained the reality is the gap is still very large and will show more over time, a base 8.Xtf is about 40%, overclocking to 9.2tf is just masking it for a while. XSX GPU will; no doubt be speced accordingly.

If Sony has got the heat and noise down then fair enough, I certainly think this 7nm refresh can achieve some higher clocks than before but still wouldn't want to jump in early and for me Sony has form in PS4 and PS4 Pro being noisy and the PS3 60gb Phat had expensive cooling for a hot 170w system but mine turned into a jet engine 2 years in and the BGA failed with the YLOD like many did. At least they lasted longer than 360s in general.
Agreed.

My primary point is that if someone believes that Sony is going to be at 9.2 TF; and are suggesting that would equal doom for Sony, they are likely arguing from a perspective NOT doing with sales. Assumption being that they are competitively priced vis-a-vis a potentially stronger Xbox.

Not aimed at you, but just in general, I am NOT arguing that Sony WILL be 9.2TF.
 

Snakeeee

Member
Jan 20, 2019
3,746
But i did talk about their cooling last night around midnight when this article first went up. in three different posts.





the discussion has since moved and ive replied to people talking about other things. i havent even ranted in a solo post. im simply replying to others. again, i dont understand the gatekeeping.
Then i apologise.
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,499
Starting to feel like a February event is definitely not happening, which Klee said there would be.
i dont like that this gets brought up all the time. Klee didnt say this in the thread. he PM'ed a poster about what he heard. if he had felt confident about it, he wouldve mentioned it in the thread. so not only did the poster break his trust by revealing the content of a private message, now his credibility is being questioned over something he did not even say publicly.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,993
i dont like that this gets brought up all the time. Klee didnt say this in the thread. he PM'ed a poster about what he heard. if he had felt confident about it, he wouldve mentioned it in the thread. so not only did the poster break his trust by revealing the content of a private message, now his credibility is being questioned over something he did not even say publicly.
He also specified later that plans could change.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,345
Good. Lol.


I distinctly recall sony saying that they needed to sell a first party game with every console to break even on the PS4. We know the PS4 BOM was $380. So retail and distribution costs must have been $80.

If the BOM alone is $450, we are looking at at least a $530 console. you would think sony would be willing to take a $30 loss at $499 and only have to sell 1 first party game for every 2 consoles sold, but they dont feel confident going up against a $499 xbox series x and i dont know why other than the possibility of a 9 tflops $499 console.

if they have to go with $450 because of worse specs, they will have to make up $80 which means selling more than 1 first party game per console which can get very tricky, but not impossible if they launch with horizon and gran turismo 7.
Yeah but the question is how long will the BOM be $450 is this a short term problem or one that will last long .
This gen ram prices went up and down so i feel that is one of the reason why we not get permanent prices cut for years .
If it's short term are they willing to eat the extra $50 for a few months .
Like how they still did sales with PS4 when ram prices went up .
 

LordBlodgett

Member
Jan 10, 2020
374
Imagine believing Mochizuki

( Maybe PS5 and XBX will be 599 or more but again imagine believing this guy )
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Mochizuki is probably one of the most well respected business journalists for Japanese companies in the US. I mean Bloomberg and Wall Street Journal are not usually the places you think of when you think of crappy journalism.....
 

Betty

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,467
i dont like that this gets brought up all the time. Klee didnt say this in the thread. he PM'ed a poster about what he heard. if he had felt confident about it, he wouldve mentioned it in the thread. so not only did the poster break his trust by revealing the content of a private message, now his credibility is being questioned over something he did not even say publicly.
Alright, fair enough, didn’t know that’s how it was found out.
 

Crazy_KiD_169

Member
Jun 21, 2018
205
If it was 36cu vs 56cu rdna architecture then the difference in BOM would have been significantly higher than ps5.

ZhugeEX saying series x BOM not significantly higher than ps5, just prove how outdated github info was and that insiders were correct in saying both consoles are very close.
This makes more sense, there’s no way the cooling difference of a couples of dollar per units makes up the difference between 36cu and 56cu price wise. People who see this as making github spec more likely have confirmation bias.
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,499
I remember reading somewhere that Layden and Ryan differed on whether big events were necessary for communication (Layden didn’t think they were). It makes me wonder if the Wired articles were part of Layden’s marketing strategy for PS5, which Ryan didn’t approve of and possibly led to Layden leaving or being forced to resign.

Layden didn’t have a big reveal planned, so as of his departure last year there wasn’t a PS Meeting-type event in the works. Ryan wants a big conference reveal so now they’re hurrying to put one together (which would explain the delay). Just a random thought.
but Jim took over in February and the first wired article was in April. Its possible Shawn did cancel E3 before he left, but Jim did not one but two wired articles after shawn left.

Jim had over a year to put together a big meeting.
 

RoninStrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,113
I remember reading somewhere that Layden and Ryan differed on whether big events were necessary for communication (Layden didn’t think they were). It makes me wonder if the Wired articles were part of Layden’s marketing strategy for PS5, which Ryan didn’t approve of and possibly led to Layden leaving or being forced to resign.

Layden didn’t have a big reveal planned, so as of his departure last year there wasn’t a PS Meeting-type event in the works. Ryan wants a big conference reveal so now they’re hurrying to put one together (which would explain the delay). Just a random thought.
Entirely possible.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
2,543
St Kitts
i blame sony tbh. their pr has been atrocious so far. they have been needlessly secretive for over two years now while cancelling conferences left and right. this was bound to happen.

say what you will about MS, but they have shown that they are confident in their product. they have been openly talking about setting a bar for two years now. they have shown the console. they have talked about the specs in more detail. they ooze of confidence.

sony is acting like the student who doesnt want to turn in his homework or do his presentation because he knows he half assed it. if you are not confident in your product, it shows. revealing logos instead of meaningful specs just screams insecurity to me. they have released two wired articles talking about the hardware without actually mentioning the specs. No mention of tflops, cpu clockspeeds, ssd speeds, ram bandwidth or anything. its like if sony had two articles for the ps4 in 2012 where they confirmed they had an amd gpu, a jaguar cpu, some ram and a hdd. ok, so your console has things that make up a console... brilliant!

the longer sony holds off, the worse its going to get. wait until arthur gies and tom warren start writing articles about sony. its just a fucking toy. they need to stop treating it like a state secret.
To be fair... MS hasn't said anting either. More so, being silent doesn't mean there is some sort of problem. It could just mean that when they do talk they want to have a lot o meaningful things to say and show. Oh, nothing was officially said of the XB1 until May 2013. A whole 3 months after sony did their full reveal. That has nothing to do with why MS lost this gen, and even if sony remains silent til may or after mS does their own full reveal, it wouldn't change anything. What I think is important is what is said when something is actually said.

SSDs that have a Phison 16E controller are over 250$ per 1TB. If XSX has a Phison 19, it will be cheaper but we are fooling ourselves if we keep repeating the “a 1TB SSD is just 100$” mantra.
And the RX5700xt costs over $400 and the PS5s GPU is supposedly more powerful than that....

But let's make this simple, I believe that whatever SSD solution sony/Ms uses wouldn't cost them more than $55. So you mean to tell me that you believe it would cost them at least $100?
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,343
but Jim took over in February and the first wired article was in April. Its possible Shawn did cancel E3 before he left, but Jim did not one but two wired articles after shawn left.

Jim had over a year to put together a big meeting.
Some of the articles about Shawn’s departure suggest that there was a power struggle. Maybe he [Layden] was getting his way at first (since the Wired articles were probably already planned at that point), but Ryan ultimately won out? Idk.

Also, didn’t Shawn leave in October 2019? Both Wired articles were done while he was still with PlayStation I think.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
2,719
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
They were? Pretty sure it was just bullshit from the media.
Hmm. I think TV TV, second screen experiences, and the BOM vs. PS360 are pretty obvious signs among many that console makers were looking to avert risk and broaden out beyond the classic "dedicated" box.

I think this time they are much more convinced that the dedicated box is still a pretty big deal, hence why they are comparatively "splurging" on them hardware wise.
 

RoninStrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,113
This makes more sense, there’s no way the cooling difference of a couples of dollar per units makes up the difference between 36cu and 56cu price wise. People who see this as making github spec more likely have confirmation bias.
Especially considering Sony is going to save more money on the components they make themselves (bluray drive etc)
 

Ricky Ricardo

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
935
Atlanta, GA
You know, it's interesting to me that just before 8th gen started, (just about) every time CBOAT appeared, she/he/it came bearing bad news relating to Xbox One and the Xbox division's internal decisions regarding it. And there was a hunger among posters for these drops of information. Regardless of the tone in which that information was delivered, IIRC, most of it turned out to be true.

Going on what we are piecing together, some internal struggles and changes have occurred within the PlayStation division over the last ~3 years and it's beginning to look like these changes have altered the division's behavior, perhaps significantly. If the recent Bloomberg article holds water, then there's also concern among Sony leadership about the PS division's strategy. And why wouldn't they be concerned? PlayStation is a massive part of their operations.

Yet to some, discussing that information is tantamount to "doom and gloom." I'm not calling anything on GitHub, that's still not 100% clear to me, but to deny that something is up at PlayStation and that everyone who insinuates such is on a warpath agenda reeks of insecurity.
 
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Isayas

Member
Jun 10, 2018
2,474
i blame sony tbh. their pr has been atrocious so far. they have been needlessly secretive for over two years now while cancelling conferences left and right. this was bound to happen.

say what you will about MS, but they have shown that they are confident in their product. they have been openly talking about setting a bar for two years now. they have shown the console. they have talked about the specs in more detail. they ooze of confidence.

sony is acting like the student who doesnt want to turn in his homework or do his presentation because he knows he half assed it. if you are not confident in your product, it shows. revealing logos instead of meaningful specs just screams insecurity to me. they have released two wired articles talking about the h
ardware without actually mentioning the specs. No mention of tflops, cpu clockspeeds, ssd speeds, ram bandwidth or anything. its like if sony had two articles for the ps4 in 2012 where they confirmed they had an amd gpu, a jaguar cpu, some ram and a hdd. ok, so your console has things that make up a console... brilliant!

the longer sony holds off, the worse its going to get. wait until arthur gies and tom warren start writing articles about sony. its just a fucking toy. they need to stop treating it like a state secret.
Snake, you are overreacting way too hard, bruh. You guys were setting yourselves up for failure when you guys thought they show something at CES 2020. Like this is why you responded like this. Microsoft did the exact same opposite seven years ago because they were good with the gamers and Sony was making a strong comeback. They had to strike first and lol @ not being confident in your product. Please.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,196
i blame sony tbh. their pr has been atrocious so far. they have been needlessly secretive for over two years now while cancelling conferences left and right. this was bound to happen.

say what you will about MS, but they have shown that they are confident in their product. they have been openly talking about setting a bar for two years now. they have shown the console. they have talked about the specs in more detail. they ooze of confidence.

sony is acting like the student who doesnt want to turn in his homework or do his presentation because he knows he half assed it. if you are not confident in your product, it shows. revealing logos instead of meaningful specs just screams insecurity to me. they have released two wired articles talking about the hardware without actually mentioning the specs. No mention of tflops, cpu clockspeeds, ssd speeds, ram bandwidth or anything. its like if sony had two articles for the ps4 in 2012 where they confirmed they had an amd gpu, a jaguar cpu, some ram and a hdd. ok, so your console has things that make up a console... brilliant!

the longer sony holds off, the worse its going to get. wait until arthur gies and tom warren start writing articles about sony. its just a fucking toy. they need to stop treating it like a state secret.
MS has revealed the XSX is a cool video at E3 and shown the console at the Game Awards. Spencer is out there talking about how excited he is about it.

Sony are being so weird about it.

This thing is supposed to be out in 10 months. And we know what the logo looks like. That's it.

Feb reveal would have been fine, but it looks like we aren't even getting that. So PS5 is some kind of secret mystery that us, as consumers, are not allowed to know about.

The thing is coming out in 10 months, if they can't show it off now then they're in major trouble and it isn't coming out this year. If it is on track for holiday 2020 then there is no reason they can't show us SOMETHING.

If we get nothing by the end of Feb I think the fans have every reason to be pissed at Sony.
 
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