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PSA: 'Ad hominem' is not just a fancy synonym for 'insult'

Deleted member 5545

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and insults added to arguments do not make that argument wrong.

For example

Valid argument that includes an insult: "You are wrong about Pokemon Gold coming out before Pokemon Red, here is a source, you idiot."

Ad hominem: "You are wrong about Pokemon Gold coming out before Pokemon Red because you are an idiot."

Insults are poor tact but when the argument is not predicated on the insult it is not an ad hominem. I particularly hope the alt-right shitters who undoubtedly hate-lurk this forum can take something away from this. Have a nice day.
 
chrisPjelly

chrisPjelly

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
9,616
bUt iT mAkeS yOu LoOk SmaRt


Xiaomi said:
It's not as bad as the "you can't read" defense that's so popular here.
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to be fair, I'm sure like 90% of people here (and most forums) are guilty of only reading the first and last sentence of a post (unless, the context is different from what I think?)
 

Mister Saturn

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
308
It's true that adding an insult to an argument doesn't invalidate said argument, but I've personally found that when pushing forth an argument, people are usually more receptive towards it if you aren't an asshole in how you argue your point.

Yazzees said:
I particularly hope the alt-right shitters who undoubtedly hate-lurk this forum can take something away from this.
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So confused with this part, what does it have to do with the rest of your OP?
 
Spectone

Spectone

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Oct 27, 2017
1,091
Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia
Yazzees said:
and insults added to arguments do not make that argument wrong.

For example

Valid argument that includes an insult: "You are wrong about Pokemon Gold coming out before Pokemon Red, here is a source, you idiot."

Ad hominem: "You are wrong about Pokemon Gold coming out before Pokemon Red because you are an idiot."

Insults are poor tact but when the argument is not predicated on the insult it is not an ad hominem. I particularly hope the alt-right shitters who undoubtedly hate-lurk this forum can take something away from this. Have a nice day.
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This is not a good way to explain it.

An Ad Hominem is when you attack the person and not their argument.
 

Deleted member 15326

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chrisPjelly said:
bUt iT mAkeS yOu LoOk SmaRt




to be fair, I'm sure like 90% of people here (and most forums) are guilty of only reading the first and last sentence of a post (unless, the context is different from what I think?)
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We had a thread where the majority of posters admitted they barely read the entirety of an OP, let alone the thread or even the full content of posts they respond to.

Some of the reliably worst posters too
 
OP
OP

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Labor said:
We had a thread where the majority of posters admitted they barely read the entirety of an OP, let alone the thread or even the full content of posts they respond to.

Some of the reliably worst posters too
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https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...s-at-old-man-yelling-at-cloud-opinions.46564/

look at the amount of people in that who didnt even read the thread title

legit halved my opinion of ERA

ZackieChan said:
Sadly, that is extremely common here. More common than whatever OP is talking about, which I almost never see.
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well i had to go with an unrealistically blatant example to make the difference clear

sadly it still wasn't enough it seems
 
Spectone

Spectone

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Oct 27, 2017
1,091
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Yazzees said:
well yes

the first example is a valid counterargument that stands on its own, followed by an insult

the second example is an invalid counterargument that stands entirely on being on insult
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The insult adds nothing to the argument and is pointless thus it is a fallacy.

I understand what you are trying to say but I believe that adding the insult undermines your argument considerably.
 
OP
OP

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Spectone said:
The insult adds nothing to the argument and is pointless thus it is a fallacy.
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so if someone told me pokemon gold came out before pokemon red, and i linked them to the wiki pages of each game showing their release date, and then ended it by calling them an idiot, that means i'm wrong about pokemon gold coming out after pokemon red. got it.

i want you to go look up the word "fallacy" before replying this time

Spectone said:
I understand what you are trying to say but I believe that adding the insult undermines your argument considerably.
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that doesn't make it a logical fallacy

being rude is not a logical fallacy
 
Spectone

Spectone

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Oct 27, 2017
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Yazzees said:
so if someone told me pokemon gold came out before pokemon red, and i linked them to the wiki pages of each game showing their release date, and then ended it by calling them an idiot, that means i'm wrong about pokemon gold coming out after pokemon red. got it.

i want you to go look up the word "fallacy" before replying this time


that doesn't make it a logical fallacy

being rude is not a logical fallacy
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Your insult is the fallacy not your argument. Don’t combine them or they undermine your argument.
 
A More Normal Bird

A More Normal Bird

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Nov 14, 2017
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Spectone said:
The insult adds nothing to the argument and is pointless thus it is a fallacy.

I understand what you are trying to say but I believe that adding the insult undermines your argument considerably.
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That's not what makes an argument an ad hominem or fallacious. If I walk down the street and yell "you wanker!" at a random stranger, I'm just insulting them, not making a fallacious argument. The OP's example is distinguishing between an argument that includes an insult or personal attack (not an ad hominem), and an argument that fallaciously relies upon one (ad hominem). It's also worth noting that ad hominem broadly includes more than just insults and arguably is not always fallacious, for example criticising the bias of a source.
 
Dommo

Dommo

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Oct 25, 2017
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Spectone said:
Your insult is the fallacy not your argument. Don’t combine them or they undermine your argument.
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A fallacy is an invalid form of reasoning, as in, the argument doesn't ring logically true as a result. Saying "Pokemon Red came out before Pokemon Gold, you idiot" isn't logically invalid. It makes perfect sense, is factually true and the reasoning is sound. It's got some unnecessary rudeness sprinkled on but it's not logically invalid. If you were to say "I'm not going to find out what order these games came out, but I know you're wrong because you're an idiot" is a fallacy because it doesn't stand to logical reason. It's attacking the character of the person instead of addressing the argument. It's ruling their point incorrect, not because it's incorrect, but because the person saying it is an idiot.

OP's using the term 'idiot' in both examples to highlight the crucial difference.
 
Skelepuzzle

Skelepuzzle

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Apr 17, 2018
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Eduardo Corrochio said:
Well at least my skull isn't completely hollow
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Son my skull is full of useless shit like song lyrics instead of useful things like physics equations or programming syntax that I could actually use.

CHALLENGE ME on remembering some Iron Maiden lyrics, I dare you. I'll be busy smashing a Rolling Rock and fucking my wife while you gaze down upon me from your castle you gilded gentry.
 
Dommo

Dommo

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A More Normal Bird said:
That's not what makes an argument an ad hominem or fallacious. If I walk down the street and yell "you wanker!" at a random stranger, I'm just insulting them, not making a fallacious argument. The OP's example is distinguishing between an argument that includes an insult or personal attack (not an ad hominem), and an argument that fallaciously relies upon one (ad hominem). It's also worth noting that ad hominem broadly includes more than just insults and arguably is not always fallacious, for example criticising the bias of a source.
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Even this kind of gets on my nerves. Like, I understand it's valid to be like "Fox News is not a reliable source for information. They have consistently lied and embellished facts over the last decade or so. They shouldn't be trusted now." But I think that invites lazy reasoning and a culture of avoiding the interaction of the argument on hand. It's always better to address the immediate argument first hand so you don't reject arguments by association. Who knows, maybe Fox News will be right one day and we'll have ad hominem-ed our way out of recognising that.
 
lmcfigs

lmcfigs

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm really frustrated by "whataboutism" that's suddenly become all the rage now. We're not allowed to point out hypocrisy, inconsistent thought, or incomplete criticism anymore - because doing that is WHATABOUTISM and basically you've activated your interlocutor's trap card; you lose and they can ignore your response.
 
Brakke

Brakke

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Oct 27, 2017
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The dumbest shit about this is it’s not like this forum is a world of rock solid rhetoric. Out here in the real world, we use these things called heuristics. “You sound like a moron, therefore you are not worth my time” is not logically sound, but it’s goddamn useful. There just aren’t enough hours in a day to deploy Perfect Logic against all the bullshit people spew.

Spectone said:
The insult adds nothing to the argument and is pointless thus it is a fallacy.
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the thing after the “thus” doesn’t follow from the things before it here

you are, in fact, exactly wrong. saying that something is false *because* it is mean is a fallacy.

maybe you think mean things are less persuasive. maybe. but OP isn’t talking about persuasiveness, is he?
 
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AlexBasch

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,096
I'm just gonna call people idiots and be done with it.

This isn't the debate club, is the Internet.


Now if you excuse me, I gotta go to the World Cup thread.
 
SolVanderlyn

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I think people get carried away with terminology, especially here and back on GAF. Straw Man, ad hominem, whataboutism, etc. etc. It's like they're so proud that they know what it means that they just want to say it whenever they can, except sometimes they don't know what it means and they use it incorrectly.

This isn't a jab at anyone in particular. I love sophisticated words as much as anyone else. But I find it funny on a macro level that it's sort of endemic to this forum to overuse debating terms specifically.
 
Rendering...

Rendering...

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Oct 30, 2017
16,143
Ipso facto, the OP is full of ad hominems obviously intended to quid pro quo those of us who are actually educated in logic. QED.
 
Xiaomi

Xiaomi

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Oct 25, 2017
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chrisPjelly said:
to be fair, I'm sure like 90% of people here (and most forums) are guilty of only reading the first and last sentence of a post (unless, the context is different from what I think?)
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That's one thing (you probably still shouldn't throw in a "learn to read" just to be a dick, though). What I'm annoyed by is shit like the following (paraphrased to avoid singling specific posters out):

Poster A: I think this basketball team's players are bad. They suck so hard.
Poster B: They won the championship, dude. They have really good players.
Poster A: I never said they didn't win the championship. Learn to read, bro.

The one thing about this forum that gets me sometimes is that its willingness to talk about serious subjects seriously (a good thing) leads to some hyper-aggressive posting habits even when discussing things that are not so serious (a bad thing).
 
Cocaloch

Cocaloch

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Nov 6, 2017
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You're missing the fact that arguments happen in a wider context. If in the space of having a discussion you constantly insult someone that's an ad hominem because you're attempting to damage their personal position as a rhetorical device.

I don't think an single off handed comment really counts. But constantly insulting someone over the course of an argument is often a rather obvious ad hominem even if no specific part of the argument hinges on it because it's often attacking the position of the person themselves to further your argumentative goal.

I've never seen anyone take issue with pointing this out on this forum until a few weeks ago, and I'm confused why people are bringing it up frequently all of a sudden.

Brakke said:
The dumbest shit about this is it’s not like this forum is a world of rock solid rhetoric. Out here in the real world, we use these things called heuristics.
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You're aware that Aristotelian fallacies are themselves a heuristic tool right? Obviously people try to use name dropping them as an I win button, but ultimately their purpose is to help people be aware of certain common and appealing kinds of poor thinking.
 
boris_feinbrand

boris_feinbrand

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Oct 26, 2017
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SolVanderlyn said:
I think people get carried away with terminology, especially here and back on GAF. Straw Man, ad hominem, whataboutism, etc. etc. It's like they're so proud that they know what it means that they just want to say it whenever they can, except sometimes they don't know what it means and they use it incorrectly.

This isn't a jab at anyone in particular. I love sophisticated words as much as anyone else. But I find it funny on a macro level that it's sort of endemic to this forum to overuse debating terms specifically.
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Yup. Just like first semester media theory students.
 

reKon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,367
The first page of this thread is fucking hilarious because of these OP replies. Some of you definitely came ready to argue for no reason whatsoever lol.
 
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