Racing Games Physics Face-off - Comparisons, Discussions, Etc

[TylerDurden4321]

On NeoGAF the "Racing Games Graphics Face-off"-thread (ResetEra thread version: here) has a long history and
I always wished there was something like that thread for the physics too.

This is that thread.


Similar rules as in the graphics face-off thread.

• Don't be a jerk to other members (and in general).
• Don't be dismissive if a game doesn't have the perfect physics and car feel for you, there always are people who love a game's feel as it is even if it's neither realistic nor like it's done in most other games.
• Try to back up your claims (data, videos, car reviews... anything replicable)

This thread is not made in the mindset that perfect realism should be the ultimate goal of simulation-style racing games. While there is basically no correlation between "realistic physics" and "good racing game", Physics - realistic or not - are a big part of any racing game and what makes it fun, this is a place to discuss this aspect.
Also, I'm sure everyone has questioned certain aspects of the physics behind a racing game - like "I refuse to believe that this car is that twitchy in real life!" This is the place to discuss this as well.

My hope is that actual discussion will evolve in this thread and it won't be just an info dump or a one page thread soon to be forgotten. So feel free to ask any questions even if they're very "noob" as long as it's not a troll-question to start a war and watch this thread burn while standing at the side.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Thread opener: Stopping Distance

Car used is the Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991).

(edit: correct picture now, thanks to GHG)


Process

- Assetto Corsa: Acti Telemetry plugin data recording to MoTec i2 Pro export (pic). Then exported data to a CSV file that was imported in Wolfram Mathematica.
- Project CARS 2: Data recording using the pCARS Telemetry app (pic). Exported data to a CSV file that was then imported in Wolfram Mathematica.
- Forza 7 and GT Sport: Reading out a video recording frame by frame and typed the speed and frame-time data into a spreadsheet (pic) that was then imported in Wolfram Mathematica.

In Mathematica (pic) the speed-time data was translated into a non-discrete function using Mathematica's Interpolation algorithm. In a speed-time graph the area under the curve is equal to the traveled (because speed is the first time-derivative of path). Mathematica is then used to numerical integrate the speed-time graph, the resulting path-time data is referenced with speed-time data to obtain a speed-distance curve.


Real Life reference

200km/h to 0km/h:
- Auto Bild 9/2015: "120 meter"
- Auto Bild Sportscars 1/2016: "117 meter"

100km/h to 0km/h:
- Auto Bild 9/2015: "32.3m (kalt) / 31.1m (warm)" <--new magazine internal record
- Motortrend.com January 25 2016: "halt from 60 mph in 96 feet" [29.26m from 60mph->96.56km/h]

Tire used in all real life tests was the regular Michelin Sport Cup2 (tirereview.co.uk tire charts), none of these were done using the Porsche-optional Dunlop Sport Maxx Race 2 semislick tire.




Comparison

Track: Monza GP (elevation change ~1m over the whole braking distance)
Car Setup: Game default (not necessarily real life OEM settings)
ABS Setting: ON - game / car default
Tire type / condition: See description / max 3% wear, warm up lap

Further details and tests

Gran Turismo Sport tire compound comparison

- Even GT Sport's racing slick tire does not perform a real life modern grooved Michelin sport tire.
- ABS "Weak" performs almost exactly as "default" in a straight line deceleration
- ABS is unrealistic smooth, no stutter, inaudible, no sense of pulsing of the brake pads
- The car stutters at around 34-46km/h under deceleration and the traction control engages even though the throttle is 0% engaged and still in 5th gear (low torque translation). You can see the curve dent and change shape at that point.


Project CARS 2 tire compound comparison

- In pCARS 2 the tire compounds react more to track temperature so that a medium tire can perform better on hotter track (even though... in this example the soft tire was only about 4°C hotter, yet both performed the same)
- The car stutters a lot from an unrealistic low frequency ABS pulsing, so much that you can see it swerve a little
- ABS High performs just as good as ABS Low, but is smoother and less stuttery
- Braking without ABS is by far smoother and lead to 1m shorter stopping distance at first try with room for improvement
- pCARS 2 uses a Pirelli Corsa tire, which, according tirereview.co.uk, has ~5% less grip than the Michelin Sport Cup2 tire used in the real life car reviews.
- considering the slightly worse tire compound, the 200-0 distance is very realistic, however the 100-0 distance is very unrealistic: 36m is a 100-0 stopping distance typical for modern every day cars.
edit1: I just realized it's not 3 degrees of "P-Zero Corsa" tire compound, it's 3 different real world tire types, the P-Zero (Hard), P-Zero Corsa (Medium) and P-Zero Trofeo R (Soft). Out of those the Trofeo R should have more grip than the Michelin Sport Cup2 used in the real life car reviews. It doesn't in pCARS 2.
edit2: The softer the tire, worse the 100km/h-0 stopping distance gets in pCARS2. Maybe because the tire heats up too much during braking. Maybe I should do a real 100-0 test, not one taken out from a 200-0 test.


Forza Motorsport 7

- The car can only be won, not bought in FM7. With the contest to win this car still out, it remains locked and can only be driven stock as a rental car, which can't be modified.
- Thanks to Petran for sending me the video I extracted the data from!


Assetto Corsa

- When I recorded this, I only knew about the regular Auto Bild test, which just said "around 120", reading as "we didn't measure very precisely, it was 123m, but 120m easier to read and just more exciting", meaning that pCARS2 would have been the closest to real world tests and AC a little unrealistic-good here. But then I read the precise number in the second Auto Bild Sportscars test, meaning that Assetto Corsa actually nails both 200-0 and 100-0 tests pretty much perfectly - and it did this even before the magazine was out.
- The ABS pulse is very fast, strong but also smooth - very believable for a modern torque vectoring system.

 

[Roy]

Great thread!
Yeah GT Sport's physics have been too slippery for years. Way too many cars are very difficult to drive. Strangely, however, I felt like braking distances were too short! I usually race GT3 class so maybe the results would be different there in these tests. It's just so difficult to outbrake someone that you'll much more often see overtaking happening during acceleration!
Anyway, did you try with ABS off?

 

[Deleted member 8408]

GT sports "comfort" and "sport" tires should be banned from existence. They are the most bullshit representation of a tire I've ever seen in a game in my life. Like, what tire are they even trying to simulate? Because they existed they would be banned from being able to be used on public roads, nevermind the race track.

 

[Lionheart]

Cool thread.

To me GT physics were always the most fun out of all the competition which is why it's my favorite. Simply doing TTs is a blast. Not sure how realistic it is or I particularly care too much but that's my feeling on it.

I feel I have the most control over the cars behavior , I can replicate my laps within. 2 seconds consistently and can feel when im on a hot lap. I think they nailed the weight-transfer of the cars.

 

[Poison Jam]

Bravo! I would love to see the data for a couple other cars as well, to see if the results would be similar.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Anyway, did you try with ABS off?

Click to shrink...

I currently don't have a PS4-compatible wheel and am playing GTS on a controller. Even if I had a brake pedal, I found GT to be the hardest to get the non-ABS braking right because you get to so little feedback about tire lock up. AC has a good lock-up noise, so does pCARS2 and also the camera gets a little shaky. Forza has the controller and/or wheel-vibration. The advantage you get in those other games always "more control", you can get better turn-in response with the right brake balance. I don't even know what the advantage of not using ABS is in GTS. I assume it's a shorter brake distance, because it's not better turn-in. Even with the brake balance set as far to the rear as possible the car is still more likely to understeer when steering and brakes are applied at the same time... or at least that's my experience with the game.

Yeah GT Sport's physics have been too slippery for years. Way too many cars are very difficult to drive. Strangely, however, I felt like braking distances were too short! I usually race GT3 class so maybe the results would be different there in these tests. It's just so difficult to outbrake someone that you'll much more often see overtaking happening during acceleration!

Click to shrink...

In GT6 the braking distances were too short - a GT6 Sports Hard tire had shorter braking distances than the best Forza 6 non-slick tire(I could dig up some old telemetry, if you want). In GTS they are too long and and the only factor that is different in Gr.3 cars to a GT3 RS road legal car is the higher downforce. The weight is about the same and plays an insignifcant role in brake tests of low-CoG cars anyway. Brake torque from the brake discs is about the same in GT3 race cars as it is in the road legal Porsche (brake cooling is much better, but not important if we are only braking once and probably not simulated in GTS anyway). Tires are usually smaller in GT3 race cars than on this 265/325mm width GT3 RS road car. So if the tire compound/type is "racing hard slick" in both cases, then the only way the braking distances in GTS Gr.3 cars are too short is that the aero in these cars is so overpowered that they make up for the unrealistic low-grip tire compound. I don't believe that.

Bravo! I would love to see the data for a couple other cars as well, to see if the results would be similar.

Click to shrink...

The main factor here really is the tire. Forza and GTS don't simulate brake fade from temperature as far as I know. Brake torque is more than necessary in all of the games (100% input without ABS will always lock-up all tires) and Aero doesn't matter in the 100-0km/h parts of the tests. Only leaves CoG height and the load sensitivity as big factors between cars. I'd say you'd be looking at very very similar results. Also, the 911 GT3 RS is a relatively new car, a first for all games (except Assetto Corsa) in this year's september/october iterations. It should be up to the highest car physics modeling standards.

Comfort softs were said to be more realistic for road cars in GTS but its far too slippery imo.

Click to shrink...

Amar showed me this PD picture from GT5 Prologue that explains what tire would be a realistic match for what car:

Click to shrink...

I think this was still valid in GT5 and GT6, but it's very different in GTS.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Comfort softs were said to be more realistic for road cars in GTS but its far too slippery imo.

 

[Crayon]

Wow great data,Tyler.
...
Can someone help me remember which update I'm talking about for GTS? When it first came out, tires felt wrong. Basically, when they were pushed too far and the grip fell off, it was extremely hard to recover them. It was almost like they got stuck in that state. This was most easily noticeable if your to use too much throttle in a rear wheel drive car. Then at some point soon after the release, they patch this and it made a night and day difference. I'm wondering if anyone can help me remember which patch this was.

 

[Roy]

Comfort softs were said to be more realistic for road cars in GTS but its far too slippery imo.

Click to shrink...

I remember in GT5 or 6 they were so slippery that you could slide very slowly down a modest incline with all 4 wheels locked up! Literally what happens when roads freeze.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I remember in GT5 or 6 they were so slippery that you could slide very slowly down a modest incline with all 4 wheels locked up! Literally what happens when roads freeze.

Click to shrink...

I remember these troll gifs where the car was rolling backwards down a hill with the tires rotating forwards at like 3km/h. Might be the same low-speed bug. Usually GT5 and GT6 had too much grip, even if you followed the tire recommendation pic I posted above.

Here, took this just minutes ago:

The RUF should have a similar weight distribution, but should perform worse than the new GT3 RS (that of course wasn't available in GT6 back then). Higher CoG, smaller tires, less downforce. The only advantage, weight, I undid by adding ballast to match the 1420kg of the GT3 RS from GT Sport.
So, braking distance from 200km/h to full stop in GT6 on Sports Hard tires is at least 32% shorter than in GTS and even 14% shorter than GTS on Racing Hard slick tires.

 

[Riderz1337]

Never used comfort or sport tires in gt. Comfort are only good for drifting and sport are good for... Nothing?

Racing tires all the way

 

[Crayon]

I have to agree about the Comfort tires. They drive like no name retreads.

 

[Deleted member 8408]

TylerDurden4321 you have pictured the wrong car by the way.

If you can't even get the basics right it makes me question the validity of your data :P

 

[TylerDurden4321]

TylerDurden4321 you have pictured the wrong car by the way.

If you can't even get the basics right it makes me question the validity of your data :P

Click to shrink...

Damn, you're right. *sigh* it looked so cool with that transparency. Found it with google picture search on porsche.com. Should have checked twice if it's really the right one. Give me a sec, on a phone here.

Edit: Got it.

no, wait...

 

[Deleted member 8408]

Damn, you're right. *sigh* it looked so cool with that transparency. Found it with google picture search on porsche.com. Should have checked twice if it's really the right one. Give me a sec, on a phone here.

Edit: Got it.

no, wait...

Click to shrink...

Haha, lego was nowhere near that impressive when I was a kid :(

So in summary are we saying as far as braking distances for this car go AC and PCars 2 are by far the most accurate, with GT sport underestimating and Forza overestimating the braking power?

If we blame the tires for the discrepancies in both GT Sport and Forza it correlates with what I've been saying all along with GT Sport - the "Racing hard" tires are actually closer to real world road sports tires than their own "sports" tires. If you look at the "racing hard" data it is almost bang on the real world data, especially so for 100-0 km/h.

That brings up two major issues, first that the "racing hard" tires are not accurately simulating a semi-slick racing tire, they should perform better than this if that were the case. And second is the fact that the "sports" tires perform well below the capabilities of real world sports tires, but anyone who has driven/owned a car that is also in the game would know that.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Haha, lego was nowhere near that impressive when I was a kid :(

Click to shrink...

I know, in my eyes this stuff still looks more like a Fischer Technik knock-off, not like actual Lego.

So in summary are we saying as far as braking distances for this car go AC and PCars 2 are by far the most accurate, with GT sport underestimating and Forza overestimating the braking power?

If we blame the tires for the discrepancies in both GT Sport and Forza it correlates with what I've been saying all along with GT Sport - the "Racing hard" tires are actually closer to real world road sports tires than their own "sports" tires. If you look at the "racing hard" data it is almost bang on the real world data, especially so for 100-0 km/h.

That brings up two major issues, first that the "racing hard" tires are not accurately simulating a semi-slick racing tire, they should perform better than this if that were the case. And second is the fact that the "sports" tires perform well below the capabilities of real world sports tires, but anyone who has driven/owned a car that is also in the game would know that.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I think that sums up how I feel about this. Personally I'm more annoyed by the over-the-limit behavior in GTS, especially when you have cornering forces and acceleration/deceleration forces at the same time acting on the tire. Something basically impossible to test without telemetry output.
Now you could "okay, then I just turn off slap Racing Hards on my sport cars in GTS and Racing Softs on my race cars and everything works out fine", but there are a number of problems:
- The tire wear is unbalanced then since the Racing Soft loses grip too quickly then.
- A slick should have a different slip-angle (I mean lateral slip) fall-off after the peak than a grooved tire. A grooved tire has way less fall-off and still enough grip to catch a slide somewhat easily, a really wide slick is "grip, grip, grip ...*whooof* and off you go" (maybe I'm exaggerating a little ;D).
- The difference between a sporty grooved tire and a slick is probably bigger than the difference between GTS's Racing Hard and its Racing Soft (you mentioned this already).


By the way, theoretically I could generate a slip-ratio curve for GTS from video. In first gear, go full throttle, standing start, the current speeds on the way to maximum 1st gear speed always divided by maximum 1st gear speed would be the current slip ratios and the longitudinal force would be the time-derivative of the current speed(=acceleration) times the mass of the car (F=m*a). We could then match slip-ratio to longitudinal force and have slip-ratio diagram for a tire in GTS. We could compare that to literature curves for street and slick tires. Still... sadly nothing that shows how the tire reacts to lateral+longitudinal simultaneously.

 

[Deleted member 8408]

Yeh there's no way to see the telemetry data in GT:S for whatever strange reason.

The fact that this thread is pretty dead compared to the other VS threads here speaks volumes BTW... it's pretty clear where people's priorities lie :P

 

[Shaneus]

Super interesting thread this! But wouldn't it be easier to test with ABS off, because that way you're taking out another possible variable?

I'm just curious, because it could just be that the ABS implementation could be off-kilter between titles and not just down to the tyres themselves (or other dodgy physics rules).

Also, shame something like rF2 or Automodelista couldn't be shown as well, I'd love to see how the hardcore sims shape up against the mainstream ones.

 

[Fredrik]

Cool to see what I've felt even though I'm not a hardcore iRacing type of guy, PC2 and AC needs more love, and holy crap at Assetto Corsa it's almost identical to the real life data :o

 

[Deleted member 8408]

Super interesting thread this! But wouldn't it be easier to test with ABS off, because that way you're taking out another possible variable?

I'm just curious, because it could just be that the ABS implementation could be off-kilter between titles and not just down to the tyres themselves (or other dodgy physics rules).

Also, shame something like rF2 or Automodelista couldn't be shown as well, I'd love to see how the hardcore sims shape up against the mainstream ones.

Click to shrink...

The real life test will have been with ABS on so it makes sense to run these with ABS on as well. The only way to disable ABS on modern cars tends to involve pulling a fuse or two. So unless the test explicitly states that it was done with ABS off (due to the effort involved in doing so) it's safe to assume the test was done with ABS on.

The problem we have is the fact that most games have a single ABS simulation system that carries across all cars rather than accurately modelling the ABS systems that each manufacturer (or individual car) uses and the slight differences that each one will have. Although I suspect that due to how close the AC data is it might be possible that they have factored this in when using the "factory" setting for each car (more cars would need to be tested to really figure this out). Both PCars' and PCars 2's ABS systems are somewhat old fashioned (we are most likely looking at 80's or early 90's tech here) and are not in line with modern standards employed by road cars, hence when the ABS is activated under heavy braking it induces lateral movement as noted by TylerDurden4321 .

To more accurately test which sim has the most accurate braking distances and braking behaviour you would need to take a car that doesn't allow ABS (e.g modern F1 cars) or an older car that would never have had ABS. Once we know that it is only the brakes, weight transfer and tires involved it would then be possible to start trying to figure out what is stopping each sim from achieving accuracy.

 

[WillyTheBikeGuy]

Dirt Rally has some great physics. Best racing game I've played.

 

[Remo Williams]

A great thread, bravo for the effort! I think it would also be interesting to test changes between different games in the same series, especially for Project Cars and Forza who've already seen multiple entries since the start of the generation. Also, how different surfaces affect the driving.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Super interesting thread this! But wouldn't it be easier to test with ABS off, because that way you're taking out another possible variable?

I'm just curious, because it could just be that the ABS implementation could be off-kilter between titles and not just down to the tyres themselves (or other dodgy physics rules).

Also, shame something like rF2 or Automodelista couldn't be shown as well, I'd love to see how the hardcore sims shape up against the mainstream ones.

Click to shrink...

About the ABS, GHG has said it all. That's exactly how i see it. You also have to consider that it's hard to get the braking perfect without ABS and it's much easier to question the reliability of the test.
If I had to take a guess... I'd say you can shorten the stopping distance in GTS by maybe 1% if you're braking is pretty much perfect and it's hard to get right in that game. The advantage is bigger in pCARS2 and it's the easiest to brake without ABS for me (on the hard tires I did it better than the ABS by over a meter at the first try). In Forza it's interesting - my FM5 and FM6 experience was that it's REALLY hard to modulate the brakes from higher speeds with some downforce and drag helping the braking to slower speeds, but just looking at braking high speeds to still moderately high speeds it's easy and the deceleration advantage is BIG - Forza's ABS pulsing is not modern quick and the slip at which the ABS engages is playing it pretty safe. Assetto Corsa has ABS completely on a per car basis with different pulse and torque rates, it also simulates torque vectoring ABS and even computer aided brake-balance in some high end cars. You can switch between ABS modes on the fly so you can have play-it-safe ABS in an off-camber downhill corner and minimal ABS-help in straight-line braking. It's in its own league in driving aid simulation (though STM is not a simulation, it's just an artificial effect in AC).

I can and want to do tests that include rF2 and Automobilista and it's very easy to get telemetry from those titles. But there are three problems.
1) If you have AC, PC2, rF2 and AMS in a comparison, you should also have RaceRoom and iRacing and for R3E I don't have a way to get telemetry out of it(even though it has shared-memory telemetry output, I just don't have an app or recording-converting plugin) and I'm not an iRacing subscriber because I'm a cheap student still... or "again" rather.
2) There are almost no road cars in those titles and race cars are very setup dependent.
3) They almost have no real overlap in the car roster. The AMG GT3 is in all the games except Forza and AMS, the BMW Z4 GT3 is in all games except rF2 (there is a mod, but don't want to include that) and AMS. Then again I don't own the AMG in R3E and rF2 (and that's 10 bucks together) and the Z4 is old, the sim tech might not be up to the newest insights of those dev studios.

A great thread, bravo for the effort! I think it would also be interesting to test changes between different games in the same series, especially for Project Cars and Forza who've already seen multiple entries since the start of the generation. Also, how different surfaces affect the driving.

Click to shrink...

Phew, getting data out of Forza is not very quick and I don't really want to download and play FM5 again. Data out of pCARS1 is easy, but I don't really want to download and play that (ever!) again either.
Would you trust me when I say that GT5 and G6 were quicker than real life. Then for FM5 Turn 10 had that custom Calspan tire testing machine made for them so they could get their own tire data for higher slip angles, which normal tire manufacturers don't test. BUT it felt like the tires spun too easily and it was much harder than reality and people didn't like it. So Turn 10 changed the longitudinal slip and grip for FM6, cars got faster. Faster than real life, still slower than GT6, but still not as easy to drive as in real life if you are on a wheel and simulation steering. In FM7 it's easier to drive but the times stayed about the same. Okay, Project CARS. pCARS1 feels very grippy under the limit but over the limit it's almost as harsh as GTS and Forza and not as nice as AC - pCARS1 lap times are also faster than real life. pCARS2 is less grippy than pCARS1, but still really grippy, but the tires consume energy(eating up engine power for deformation and heating) better making it quite a bit slower, maybe even a tiny bit slower than real life, but it drives very easy and nice over the limit, night and day compared to pCARS1.

What do you mean exactly with "different surfaces"? Old soviet tarmac vs. the finest and newest F1 track tarmac? Or sand vs. gravel? Smooth, even tarmac vs one with many small bumpy undulations? Or puddle vs wet vs moist vs dry?

 

[Dash Kappei]

Subscribed, great thread mate!

 

[CassiusClay99]

You're the man Tyler. Great thread.

 

[Remo Williams]

Phew, getting data out of Forza is not very quick and I don't really want to download and play FM5 again. Data out of pCARS1 is easy, but I don't really want to download and play that (ever!) again either.
Would you trust me when I say that GT5 and G6 were quicker than real life. Then for FM5 Turn 10 had that custom Calspan tire testing machine made for them so they could get their own tire data for higher slip angles, which normal tire manufacturers don't test. BUT it felt like the tires spun too easily and it was much harder than reality and people didn't like it. So Turn 10 changed the longitudinal slip and grip for FM6, cars got faster. Faster than real life, still slower than GT6, but still not as easy to drive as in real life if you are on a wheel and simulation steering. In FM7 it's easier to drive but the times stayed about the same. Okay, Project CARS. pCARS1 feels very grippy under the limit but over the limit it's almost as harsh as GTS and Forza and not as nice as AC - pCARS1 lap times are also faster than real life. pCARS2 is less grippy than pCARS1, but still really grippy, but the tires consume energy(eating up engine power for deformation and heating) better making it quite a bit slower, maybe even a tiny bit slower than real life, but it drives very easy and nice over the limit, night and day compared to pCARS1.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for this. I haven't played Project Cars games yet, but when it comes to Forza Motorsport, that's pretty consistent with my experience. Going to Forza 5 from Forza 4 felt like someone pulled the rug from under my feet, I haven't had that much trouble not slipping out in more powerful cars since, well, Forza 2. I haven't played a lot of Forza 6 and Forza 7 yet, but they do feel like they're more forgiving in that sense.

What do you mean exactly with "different surfaces"? Old soviet tarmac vs. the finest and newest F1 track tarmac? Or sand vs. gravel? Smooth, even tarmac vs one with many small bumpy undulations? Or puddle vs wet vs moist vs dry?

Click to shrink...

I meant primarily gravel and dirt simulation in games that feature those kinds of surfaces, and wet surfaces compared to hot and cold dry tracks.

 

[Shaneus]

Thanks so much for that response, TD. Appreciate all the effort in the trading *and* the replies!

 

[Deleted member 8408]

Nicki Thiim compares Raceroom, Assetto Corsa and iRacing in the Porsche 911 cup car around Nurburgring GP:



First of all, for those of you who might not know who Nicki is (please Google him), he's a professional racing driver and used to race in the Porsche Super up series.

It's well worth watching the video to get all the details in-depth but here's the ranking:

1. iRacing (just) - Positives: The graphics and sound (I know... Wtf!), the track is the most accurate of the 3 curbs are spot on, the chasis simulation is the most accurate. Negatives: the tire model is all wrong, worst of the 3, felt like he was driving the car with rain tires in dry conditions.
2. Assetto Corsa (very close second) - Positives: Best tire model of the 3, great feedback, far ahead of the other two in this regard, feels it is spot on. Negatives: similar to Raceroom, the chasis handling effects are a tad exaggerated but not as badly as Raceroom.
3. Raceroom - Positives: the way the car behaves under braking dependant on speed is the best of the 3, very accurate in that regard. Negatives: A lot of the forces on the car are exaggerated, especially the sensation of push under power. This is natural for most rear engined cars due to the lack of weight over the front axle but in this game it is amplified too much.

Bonus: When asked about why he didn't include project cars 2 in this comparison in the comments section he said "I would rather go for need for speed" :P . But he later says he will give it a try so if he posts the video I'll share it here.

 

[Roy]

I play GT Sport and prefer the GT3 category and I recently discovered the joys of the NSX. It's very well balanced and you can attack the track without constant fear of spinning. It feels planted and responsive and you can slide it a bit without losing complete control.
I wish more cars would behave like this.

 

[TJP]

iRacing (just) - Positives: The graphics and sound (I know... Wtf!), the track is the most accurate of the 3 curbs are spot on, the chasis simulation is the most accurate. Negatives: the tire model is all wrong, worst of the 3, felt like he was driving the car with rain tires in dry conditions.

1. Assetto Corsa (very close second) - Positives: Best tire model of the 3, great feedback, far ahead of the other two in this regard, feels it is spot on. Negatives: similar to Raceroom, the chasis handling effects are a tad exaggerated but not as badly as Raceroom.
2. Raceroom - Positives: the way the car behaves under braking dependant on speed is the best of the 3, very accurate in that regard. Negatives: A lot of the forces on the car are exaggerated, especially the sensation of push under power. This is natural for most rear engined cars due to the lack of weight over the front axle but in this game it is amplified too much.

Click to shrink...

1. Interesting. The guy who did the physics for R3E races and instructs in the same car.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I play GT Sport and prefer the GT3 category and I recently discovered the joys of the NSX. It's very well balanced and you can attack the track without constant fear of spinning. It feels planted and responsive and you can slide it a bit without losing complete control.
I wish more cars would behave like this.

Click to shrink...

Could it be that the car has some sort of AYC for its 4WD??

When GHG summarized Nicki Thiim, I might as well add all I remember from when I watched all the german-only videos from Jan Seyffarth after TJP called attention to that guy because of his english video about rF2.

Jan Seyffarth drives GT3 in the Mercedes-AMG GT3, before he drove the SLS GT3 and Porsche Cup. He's also an AMG Academy instructor and took part in the development of the AMG GT3 and GT4.

In his video series (YouTube playlist link) he bought sim racing equipment and only drove each game for a few laps before he recorded his impressions, hoping that this way he was more comparing each title to the real world car and not mostly to other sim-racing titles that he might have gotten used to already.

For some games he did a short initial video on a shorter track than a longer one for the Nordschleife. Car is always the AMG GT3 he drives IRL or for Forza he used the SLS GT3 - always in each game's standard car setup.
In original order (only other game he played with his wheel before is F1 2017, IIRC):

1. Project CARS 2: He likes the feel early on at Hockenheim, but in his second video on the Nordschleife (with playing RaceRoom and Assetto Corsa in between) he takes that back somewhat, saying the car is a bit off and the FFB hits too hard - maybe not a real sim but still very close already. Good graphics. Hockenheim lap time is kinda ok. Both Hockenheim and Nordschleife feel a bit bumpy for him and some tire barriers are in the wrong places, also he can't take the VLN qualifying shortcut. ABS on "weak" didn't feel right to him, switches to strong and that's better. He mentions that the gear setup is unrealistic and IRL they don't have it like that on any track. Overall he feels that it's a bit too easy to save the car after a mistake. And yea..., about 1/3 of the time(!) of each pCARS2 video he loses his shit about penalties for exceeding track limits that are entirely unrealistic[>50% of the car outside the white line, even at curbs with green stripe off-track areas behind them). This is basically enough that he doesn't want to play the game anymore and gives it a thumbs down. [btw. I was waiting the whole video for him to mention that the two red rev light LEDs are unused in pCARS2, just as the ABS-active warning light. If all this sounds like a bit of a mess of a review and all over the place, that's exactly what this was in my opinion].
2. Assetto Corsa: Graphics only ok, but car interior very accurate. He loved the sound when he got overtaken by an AI Porsche GT3 and said "amazing, exactly how it sounds IRL". He liked the physics in the sense that he can brush the brake pedal to get a little more turn in, but said that the car is set up with a bit too much oversteer. The Nordschleife, especially in the first few corners he found much too bumpy. I also remember that he liked how you have to set up each overtake in a race, considering the advantages of the different cars on the track you're driving. The Nordschleife video is actually more of a instructions how to drive the Nordschleife video - but that his explaining from IRL experience always matches what he does in game says that AC is pretty accurate in the physics and Nordschleife layout.
3. RaceRoom: He likes the sound even a little more than AC's, but mentions that the chassis noises are way overdone (there is some noise that sounds like he's constantly driving through gravel on Nürburgring GP). So far the RaceRoom standard car setup seems to be the most realistic to him in terms of over- and undesteer and he likes the FFB a little more than AC's. Nordschleife again gets the most praise out of the 3 so far - it's a lot less bumpy and thus closer to real life and he feels like he can sense the under- and oversteer that he remembers from certain Nordschleife corners IRL better in RaceRoom than in the other games (sounded like the track is better(?), not necessarily the FFB or the physics). [...and again, the display items and the way the rev lights work are entirely different to the other games, but no mention of that, also no mention about missing ABS in RaceRoom]
4. Forza Motorsport 7: He likes the look a lot. He thinks the engine sound is completely off and to drive the Nordschleife he needs to switch on TCS, ABS and even Stability Management, because the car loses grip unexpectedly mid-corner and when he's early on the gas with the unnatural feeling FFB making it very hard to catch the rear. The tires drive like some kind of street car compound and not like grippy slick. On the Döttinger Höhe (the long straight at the end of the Nordschleife) he's into 6th earlier and reaches 10-15km/h more than IRL and also a lot earlier. But he doesn't completely bash the game saying that he could see himself playing this on a controller with some friends and it's good for beginners to get motivated with "good corner"/"perfect corner" comments by the game. The Nordschleife seemed pretty accurate to him as well. Though he ends the drive with saying "Das Reifenmodell oder die Fahrphysik... kann man schlecht sagen... die is gar nix" ("the tire model or the driving physics... hard to tell... is nothing whatsoever").
5. iRacing: This is basically praise across the board except for the graphics (they're good enough though). The track accuracy, wheel feedback (too strong, but in a later video he saw that it was not set up right), all his braking points and how he brakes are very true to real life. The base car setup is again too oversteery though. Another negative he mentions in a later video is that the tire model may be a little behind the curve compared to rF2 and AC, but the whole structure of the multiplayer makes more than up for this again.
6. rFactor 2 (he has an english video for this as well, but I'm going off what he said in the German version): He likes the graphics, but the cockpit display is annoyingly off. Standard FFB too strong hitting/whipping (even more than in iRacing). Car is (set up?) unrealistically oversteery under braking which doesn't make sense to him in a car with a heavy front engine. With more laps on Silverstone(no Nordschleife in rF2), he starts to like the game more and more though and says that it's definitely not just a game but a true sim and actually fun to drive, but it felt like he doesn't see why someone would pick this over iRacing.

I'm pretty sure he liked iRacing the most, then RaceRoom, then Assetto Corsa, rF2, pCARS2 and Forza the least. Graphics he seemed the most impressed by pCARS2 and maybe Forza too.
Maybe also worth mentioning that his car control, even though he didn't drive sims before is pretty good, but he still makes many mistakes that make him slow and his lap times were below the average sim racing guy. In his newest videos, he's gotten a lot faster already though.

When you comment on this, remember, it's his impressions and he's a racing game/sim noob! Personally I disagree with many of his points, but I still think it's an interesting perspective.

 

[Roy]

Could it be that the car has some sort of AYC for its 4WD??

When GHG summarized Nicki Thiim, I might as well add all I remember from when I watched all the german-only videos from Jan Seyffarth after TJP called attention to that guy because of his english video about rF2.

Jan Seyffarth drives GT3 in the Mercedes-AMG GT3, before he drove the SLS GT3 and Porsche Cup. He's also an AMG Academy instructor and took part in the development of the AMG GT3 and GT4.

In his video series (YouTube playlist link) he bought sim racing equipment and only drove each game for a few laps before he recorded his impressions, hoping that this way he was more comparing each title to the real world car and not mostly to other sim-racing titles that he might have gotten used to already.

For some games he did a short initial video on a shorter track than a longer one for the Nordschleife. Car is always the AMG GT3 he drives IRL or for Forza he used the SLS GT3 - always in each game's standard car setup.
In original order (only other game he played with his wheel before is F1 2017, IIRC):

1. Project CARS 2: He likes the feel early on at Hockenheim, but in his second video on the Nordschleife (with playing RaceRoom and Assetto Corsa in between) he takes that back somewhat, saying the car is a bit off and the FFB hits too hard - maybe not a real sim but still very close already. Good graphics. Hockenheim lap time is kinda ok. Both Hockenheim and Nordschleife feel a bit bumpy for him and some tire barriers are in the wrong places, also he can't take the VLN qualifying shortcut. ABS on "weak" didn't feel right to him, switches to strong and that's better. He mentions that the gear setup is unrealistic and IRL they don't have it like that on any track. Overall he feels that it's a bit too easy to save the car after a mistake. And yea..., about 1/3 of the time(!) of each pCARS2 video he loses his shit about penalties for exceeding track limits that are entirely unrealistic[>50% of the car outside the white line, even at curbs with green stripe off-track areas behind them). This is basically enough that he doesn't want to play the game anymore and gives it a thumbs down. [btw. I was waiting the whole video for him to mention that the two red rev light LEDs are unused in pCARS2, just as the ABS-active warning light. If all this sounds like a bit of a mess of a review and all over the place, that's exactly what this was in my opinion].
2. Assetto Corsa: Graphics only ok, but car interior very accurate. He loved the sound when he got overtaken by an AI Porsche GT3 and said "amazing, exactly how it sounds IRL". He liked the physics in the sense that he can brush the brake pedal to get a little more turn in, but said that the car is set up with a bit too much oversteer. The Nordschleife, especially in the first few corners he found much too bumpy. I also remember that he liked how you have to set up each overtake in a race, considering the advantages of the different cars on the track you're driving. The Nordschleife video is actually more of a instructions how to drive the Nordschleife video - but that his explaining from IRL experience always matches what he does in game says that AC is pretty accurate in the physics and Nordschleife layout.
3. RaceRoom: He likes the sound even a little more than AC's, but mentions that the chassis noises are way overdone (there is some noise that sounds like he's constantly driving through gravel on Nürburgring GP). So far the RaceRoom standard car setup seems to be the most realistic to him in terms of over- and undesteer and he likes the FFB a little more than AC's. Nordschleife again gets the most praise out of the 3 so far - it's a lot less bumpy and thus closer to real life and he feels like he can sense the under- and oversteer that he remembers from certain Nordschleife corners IRL better in RaceRoom than in the other games (sounded like the track is better(?), not necessarily the FFB or the physics). [...and again, the display items and the way the rev lights work are entirely different to the other games, but no mention of that, also no mention about missing ABS in RaceRoom]
4. Forza Motorsport 7: He likes the look a lot. He thinks the engine sound is completely off and to drive the Nordschleife he needs to switch on TCS, ABS and even Stability Management, because the car loses grip unexpectedly mid-corner and when he's early on the gas with the unnatural feeling FFB making it very hard to catch the rear. The tires drive like some kind of street car compound and not like grippy slick. On the Döttinger Höhe (the long straight at the end of the Nordschleife) he's into 6th earlier and reaches 10-15km/h more than IRL and also a lot earlier. But he doesn't completely bash the game saying that he could see himself playing this on a controller with some friends and it's good for beginners to get motivated with "good corner"/"perfect corner" comments by the game. The Nordschleife seemed pretty accurate to him as well. Though he ends the drive with saying "Das Reifenmodell oder die Fahrphysik... kann man schlecht sagen... die is gar nix" ("the tire model or the driving physics... hard to tell... is nothing whatsoever").
5. iRacing: This is basically praise across the board except for the graphics (they're good enough though). The track accuracy, wheel feedback (too strong, but in a later video he saw that it was not set up right), all his braking points and how he brakes are very true to real life. The base car setup is again too oversteery though. Another negative he mentions in a later video is that the tire model may be a little behind the curve compared to rF2 and AC, but the whole structure of the multiplayer makes more than up for this again.
6. rFactor 2 (he has an english video for this as well, but I'm going off what he said in the German version): He likes the graphics, but the cockpit display is annoyingly off. Standard FFB too strong hitting/whipping (even more than in iRacing). Car is (set up?) unrealistically oversteery under braking which doesn't make sense to him in a car with a heavy front engine. With more laps on Silverstone(no Nordschleife in rF2), he starts to like the game more and more though and says that it's definitely not just a game but a true sim and actually fun to drive, but it felt like he doesn't see why someone would pick this over iRacing.

I'm pretty sure he liked iRacing the most, then RaceRoom, then Assetto Corsa, rF2, pCARS2 and Forza the least. Graphics he seemed the most impressed by pCARS2 and maybe Forza too.
Maybe also worth mentioning that his car control, even though he didn't drive sims before is pretty good, but he still makes many mistakes that make him slow and his lap times were below the average sim racing guy. In his newest videos, he's gotten a lot faster already though.

When you comment on this, remember, it's his impressions and he's a racing game/sim noob! Personally I disagree with many of his points, but I still think it's an interesting perspective.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the great summary!
Will he play GT Sport?

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Thanks for the great summary!
Will he play GT Sport?

Click to shrink...

I already wrote him on Twitter and in the comments of one video to buy a CronusMax Drivehub to make his wheel work on the PS4 and do a "Spiel vs. Realität" for GT Sport, but no response.

 

[TJP]

What the hell is going on in his R3E video? The background AKA Skybox is completely fucked; must be an AMD GPU setup.

 

[Deleted member 8408]

Thanks for the great summary!
Will he play GT Sport?

Click to shrink...

A lot of the people who do these comparisons are primarily PC gamers and will have hardware that is not compatible on consoles. The only reason Forza is getting included in some of these is because there's now a PC version.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Wow great data,Tyler.
...
Can someone help me remember which update I'm talking about for GTS? When it first came out, tires felt wrong. Basically, when they were pushed too far and the grip fell off, it was extremely hard to recover them. It was almost like they got stuck in that state. This was most easily noticeable if your to use too much throttle in a rear wheel drive car. Then at some point soon after the release, they patch this and it made a night and day difference. I'm wondering if anyone can help me remember which patch this was.

Click to shrink...

That's exactly how Forza 7 is too, as soon as you lose traction and start sliding unless you completely back off it's like it automatically just puts you in drift mode. Not at all realistic but great fun when drifting is so easy in it but too many cars are tail happy like that and brake traction constantly.

All the cars feel pretty similar to me, like the Formula Trucks drive like touring cars and are super agile and the FF touring cars drive almost identically to the rear driven ones!

 

[TylerDurden4321]

A lot of the people who do these comparisons are primarily PC gamers and will have hardware that is not compatible on consoles. The only reason Forza is getting included in some of these is because there's now a PC version.

Click to shrink...

What the hell is going on in his R3E video? The background AKA Skybox is completely fucked; must be an AMD GPU setup.

Click to shrink...

I *think* he bought an Xbox One X and played pCARS2 and AC on that, then played R3E on some low-end PC that had some sort of graphics compatibility issues with the game, THEN he got a gaming PC, rig/seat for his wheel and pedals. Don't know if he has a PS4 though (but I bet he knows dozens of people he could borrow one from).

That's exactly how Forza 7 is too, as soon as you lose traction and start sliding unless you completely back off it's like it automatically just puts you in drift mode. Not at all realistic but great fun when drifting is so easy in it but too many cars are tail happy like that and brake traction constantly.

All the cars feel pretty similar to me, like the Formula Trucks drive like touring cars and are super agile and the FF touring cars drive almost identically to the rear driven ones!

Click to shrink...

Without having tried FM7 (only 2,3,5,6), I'd say it's worse in GTS. Take the Nissan GT-R LM Nismo (FWD with +500hp) in Forza and it still steers somewhat with the wheels spinning. In GTS the car is basically slipping forward only when you steer - zero cornering capability left.



So, as I mentioned above (last paragraph #17), I thought I'd give this a try, a) see if this works and b) check if GTS has a weird slip-ratio curve.

For people who don't know, the slip-ratio is the ratio between the speed that the driven tires want to go (angular speed of the driven axle times Pi times tire diameter) and the speed that the car actually goes.
If both are the same, the slip-ratio is 0% and the car is neither accelerating nor braking. Even if you accelerate your real life car very slowly without the slightest wheelspin, there is still a difference between the speed of where the tire is connected to the rim and the speed of the tire connected to the road - imagine a minimal swirl across the tire from rim to outside. As the swirling gets harder(because of the stiffness of the rubber), more area of the tire's contact patch loses adhesive grip and goes into sliding grip.

Typically you see slip-ratio curves like these (1.0 meaning 100% , friction coefficient indicating how much "grip" there is):

Now to get this for GT Sport's tire model I tried the following:

1. Record a video of a car, revved up for a standing burn-out start from 0 to its maximum 1st gear speed (it's a BMW Z4 GT3 because the car is in many other sims, I locked the differential in the setup):

2. Get time, speed and ~revs from the video onto a spreadsheet.
3. Import the spreadsheet into Mathematica:

4. Get the first derivative of the interpolated data (this is tricky, without any smoothing it doesn't work, too much smoothing and it's too inaccurate later):

5. Get the Slip Ratios at each point in time based on the rev counter data vs actual ground speed (the little hiccup early on is GTS's clutch):

6. Match the slip-ratio data for each point in time to the acceleration data for each point in time for the final slip-ratio curve):

Error analysis:
- GTS's speed data is integer only, nothing behind the decimal point - not smooth enough, needs additional smoothing
- 30fps video means too few data point once the tires start to grip
- longitudinal g (/friction) not corrected for gain in tire load (vertical force on the tire) as the weight shifts to the back with higher acceleration
- tires show overheating for the first half of the video; degree of influence on the tire friction unknown
- Derived data points very raw and unpolished
- ...probably more I'm currently not thinking of
- edit: for example that I had to steer the car to keep it going straight


So...
Overall I'm surprised this worked (to some degree) at all and the slip vs. g-force curves looks like something familiar.
The shape looks fairly normal, not as harsh as I had guessed.

The problem must be in how GTS depicts combined slip - when lateral and longitudinal slip occur at the same time. It feels like a tire with a fully sliding contact patch almost transmits to lateral forces and uses the remaining grip for longitudinal acceleration.
Just shit that I don't see a reliable way of really testing this - even without getting actual hard data out.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Copy from the Graphics Comparison thread (because FOV is something "game vs real life" as well):

I tried to fit the GTS pic to any of my AC FOV pics [FOV 85° to FOV 35° in steps of 5°, so lots of pics to compare it with) and... shit just won't fit right!

Newest guess is that my calculation from before is bollocks ...for whatever reason, probably mostly because that acceleration comparison video was scaled badly when the author did the split-screen layout... but maybe also because the chase cam might have zoom or something on it and the actually "camera position" is somewhere very different from FM7 to GTS... really I have not much of a clue.

So, the best fit I could get is that both, FM and GT have more or less the same FOV (at least from cockpit, but FM has the "seat position" further back and tilted down more) and the best match(*cough* - best doesn't mean "actually good") is with AC's 55° vertical FOV:

Pic changes GTS -> AC -> FM6 -> GTS... [look at the track wall to the right, I tried to match the perspective contraction... also look at how close the winner podium and the last building seem to be to the camera]

Meaning, you were (probably) right! Still not entirely sure, if my lining-up of the pics was right. But right now I'd say there's maybe only 2° difference in FOV angle between Forza and GTS.
[and I still agree that Forza looks faster than GTS]



----------
side notes:
- didn't want to get you out of bed, sorry :D
- Yes, the dash cam in FM7 seemed really cool when I tried the demo. I usually drive with the wheel on screen in sims, but the wheel rotation, lag and also how far away the camera is doesn't look good in FM7(and in GTS neither really, not even with better seat position). Dash cam worked well. But there's still the annoying FOV distortion. I mind it less with a controller on a big TV in the living room, but it feels weird on my setup.
- To have this 55° FOV angle from GTS and Forza be the mathematically correct angle, you would need to sit/play 59cm (or "little under 2 feet" for our imperial friends) away from a 50" TV. Then it would be like sitting in a black box inside the real car, looking out of a window in the box that is also 50" and 59cm away from you (well, except that the box wound need to be spherical and the window and your TV too). Distances would look the same as in real life.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

So iRacing put out LMP hybrids.

The Audi R18 e-tron has a kinetic recovery on the front wheels... nothing hybrid on the rear axle:

This means that you recover energy under braking, but if you LOCK-UP the front wheels under braking, there should be no energy recovery even though the car still slows down (from the rear brakes and even locking tires transmit some braking force).

So, do games simulate this?

Games tried:

- iRacing: YES
- Assetto Corsa: NO (but the game features energy recovery systems with different modes that can be selected while driving)
- Project CARS 2: NO (but the game features energy recovery simulation)

---UPDATE---
- RaceRoom: NO ENERGY RECOVERY SIMULATION edit2: RaceRoom's car is the 2011 version without KERS, there is no other hybrid car in the game either
- Gran Turismo Sport: ??? (but the game does feature energy recovery simulation) (<--edited)
- Forza Motorsport 7: NO ENERGY RECOVERY SIMULATION


Process:
- turn off ABS
- put the brake balance far to the front to make sure the front tires lock up very early even at higher speeds (also turn brake force to max)
- deplete a good part of the hybrid energy by accelerating on a longer straight, then brake as hard as possible as fast as possible to lock the front wheels immediatel
- check the recovery / battery charge where possible [IRL it can be shown in one of three different steering wheel dash layouts according to Audi, but iRacing only has the one standard layout and you have to check recovery in in a menu. In Assetto Corsa it is the same, but there I had to check the charge status using an unofficial app (AC Sidekick), PC2 has the it on the steering wheel in cockpit view, but visible in the inaccurate standard layout... however, it does feature other dash layouts, you can click through them with the right button binding - pretty cool stuff]


Anyone care to check RaceRoom [they too have different dash views - cool] or GT Sport? [Forza doesn't simulate any energy recovery as far as I know]

 

[Deleted member 8408]

So iRacing put out LMP hybrids.

The Audi R18 e-tron has a kinetic recovery on the front wheels... nothing hybrid on the rear axle:

This means that you recover energy under braking, but if you LOCK-UP the front wheels under braking, there should be no energy recovery even though the car still slows down (from the rear brakes and even locking tires transmit some braking force).

So, do games simulate this?

Games tried:

- iRacing: YES
- Assetto Corsa: NO
- Project CARS 2: NO


Process:
- turn off ABS
- put the brake balance far to the front to make sure the front tires lock up very early even at higher speeds (also turn brake force to max)
- deplete a good part of the hybrid energy by accelerating on a longer straight, then brake as hard as possible as fast as possible to lock the front wheels immediatel
- check the recovery / battery charge where possible [IRL it can be shown in one of three different steering wheel dash layouts according to Audi, but iRacing only has the one standard layout and you have to check recovery in in a menu. In Assetto Corsa it is the same, but there I had to check the charge status using an unofficial app (AC Sidekick), PC2 has the it on the steering wheel in cockpit view, but visible in the inaccurate standard layout... however, it does feature other dash layouts, you can click through them with the right button binding - pretty cool stuff]


Anyone care to check RaceRoom [they too have different dash views - cool] or GT Sport? [Forza doesn't simulate any energy recovery as far as I know]

Click to shrink...

Stop trying to make me go back down the iRacing rabbit hole and make me buy more cars :P

I can test R3E and GT Sport (I can already tell you GT Sport will be a NO) but you will need to wait a week as I'm due to head to the airport in about 3 hours.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Stop trying to make me go back down the iRacing rabbit hole and make me buy more cars :P

I can test R3E and GT Sport (I can already tell you GT Sport will be a NO) but you will need to wait a week as I'm due to head to the airport in about 3 hours.

Click to shrink...

I tried both now, updated my post above.

How does GT Sport have NO hybrid simulation at all? GT 6 had energy recovery simulation! Even some watered-down simulation would have been been than none at all in my opinion.

 

[Apex88]

I tried both now, updated my post above.

How does GT Sport have NO hybrid simulation at all? GT 6 had energy recovery simulation! Even some watered-down simulation would have been been than none at all in my opinion.

Click to shrink...

The hybrid is simulated in GT Sport.

Energy recovery is determined by your own braking (and in the 919, recovery from the turbo), and deployed depending on speed and steering angle. The TS050 has an indicator on the steering wheel for energy recovery. The 919 stores slightly more energy than the TS050. For qualifying it's best to focus on storing energy for one lap, before you go for a quick one.

In the real cars much of the setup time is spent dialing in when to deploy the hybrid.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

The hybrid is simulated in GT Sport.

Energy recovery is determined by your own braking (and in the 919, recovery from the turbo), and deployed depending on speed and steering angle. The TS050 has an indicator on the steering wheel for energy recovery. The 919 stores slightly more energy than the TS050. For qualifying it's best to focus on storing energy for one lap, before you go for a quick one.

In the real cars much of the setup time is spent dialing in when to deploy the hybrid.

Click to shrink...

I don't have those cars, there is no sign of energy recovery in the Audi R18. Neither in cockpit nor in the GTS HUD - at least none I could find.

EDIT: I just double checked something. I just took the R18 I had won in GTS, didn't know there are 2 of those in the game, one e-tron and one without. I might have used the old model?! Gonna check youtube for the e-tron 2016 HUD now.
Edit2: Same with RaceRoom. The car's name is just Audi R18, but if you look it up on Sector3's website, it says "(2011)" which should be non e-tron version. So much for that comparison. [and there aren't any other KERS cars in RaceRoom either]

Edit 3: Checked. The 2016 Audi R18 e-tron shows the battery bar in the steering wheel display (though the display looks not original, but whatever, probably programmable by each team anyway).


If someone has the 2016 Audi R18 e-tron quattro car in GTS, could you try if there is energy recovered from braking with the front wheels fully locking?

 

[TJP]

The RaceRoom R18 is based on the 2011 car - R18 TDI Ultra - which did not have any hybrid technology.

You need to change your post as your comparing oranges to apples :)

 

[ethomaz]

That is a really great subject for thread.

Thanks.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

The RaceRoom R18 is based on the 2011 car - R18 TDI Ultra - which did not have any hybrid technology.

You need to change your post as your comparing oranges to apples :)

Click to shrink...

I realized it myself before I read your post. That the car is just named R18 didn't much help though.
Is it correct that Sector3's version of the 2017 F1 car doesn't feature energy recovery though?

One more question to you as our local R3E expert: How can I get telemetry from the game as not just live telemetry but also as a recording of a lap. I have apps/plugins for AC, rF2, AMS, PC2 but nothing for R3E even though the game does have shared memory telemetry. There must be some app out there that can do this.

 

[Apex88]

I don't have those cars, there is no sign of energy recovery in the Audi R18. Neither in cockpit nor in the GTS HUD - at least none I could find.

EDIT: I just double checked something. I just took the R18 I had won in GTS, didn't know there are 2 of those in the game, one e-tron and one without. I might have used the old model?! Gonna check youtube for the e-tron 2016 HUD now.
Edit2: Same with RaceRoom. The car's name is just Audi R18, but if you look it up on Sector3's website, it says "(2011)" which should be non e-tron version. So much for that comparison. [and there aren't any other KERS cars in RaceRoom either]

Edit 3: Checked. The 2016 Audi R18 e-tron shows the battery bar in the steering wheel display (though the display looks not original, but whatever, probably programmable by each team anyway).


If someone has the 2016 Audi R18 e-tron quattro car in GTS, could you try if there is energy recovered from braking with the front wheels fully locking?

Click to shrink...

In GT Sport there's no hud to determine how much energy is being recovered. Just some indicators on the wheel of the TS050 and R18. This only came to light recently when hot lapping. We found the first lap out always seemed quicker (or at least we hit top speeds quicker). We found on certain tracks we couldn't recover enough energy from braking to refill the hybrid to max power.

This is actually realistic. In Assetto Corsa your hybrid refills to max power every lap, regardless of how much you regained.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

In Assetto Corsa your hybrid refills to max power every lap, regardless of how much you regained.

Click to shrink...

Give me a car/track combo, I'll try this(with a video of the lap). Deplete the battery completely, then try to fully recharge it in one lap while also using a balanced auto deployment setting (there are 4 deployment modes in AC's LMP hybrids). But I can already tell you, my gut tells me you're wrong about this.

 

[Apex88]

Give me a car/track combo, I'll try this(with a video of the lap). Deplete the battery completely, then try to fully recharge it in one lap while also using a balanced auto deployment setting (there are 4 deployment modes in AC's LMP hybrids). But I can already tell you, my gut tells me you're wrong about this.

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If you use the 919 at Spa it's quicker to manually boost, otherwise you're already out of hybrid power before the back straight, where plenty of time can be gained. Cross the line and your hybrid energy goes back to 100%. No matter how much you try to recover, you're limited in how much you can deploy per lap.

In GT Sport, on the longest Dragons Trail configuration, it's difficult to recover 100% hybrid power in a single lap.

TBH, I think it's too complicated to figure out what's happening in each game. There are so many configurations you can use in the real car, it depends how the devs set them up in game. AC's four options certainly have benefits on different tracks. Whereas GT Sport is more likely optimised for each track to simplify things.