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Rage 2 is a fun game that makes me feel like garbage - Polygon

TheHighMarshal

TheHighMarshal

Member
Dec 5, 2018
867
Bethesda, North Wales
So I found this.

The mutation, I explained to Willits, looks like an exaggerated cleft lip and cleft palate. The original Rage used similar imagery for its mutants, and I told Willits how disappointed I felt to see the sequel following that same path. Fiction has long associated clefts with both villainy and mental health disorders, and it appeared the Ragefranchise would perpetuate this cruel, damaging misrepresentation to a broad audience.
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As someone who outwardly doesn't display any kind of disability I'd never even thought of something like this.

-Edit- Taken from Loudninja post in the thread!

A lot, it turns out! The cleft is used with such frequency that it feels like a visual cue: The exaggerated cleft signifies the most mutated of mutants, subhuman beasts that are caged, ridden like horses, or mounted like animals.
There's a lopsided consistency to the world. The better the character, the more traditional their beauty. The sketchier the character, the more deformed. Obviously there are the rare exceptions, but by and large, the "good characters" aren't "mutated." Most human characters look like central casting actors and actresses in post-apocalypse makeup. A little dust here and there.
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Servbot24

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,043
Gamers are going to mock the shit out of this.

I don't share the same discomfort in regards to rage 2, but no one should be mocked for opening up about personal feeling of discomfort and concern for a community.
 
Kraken3dfx

Kraken3dfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,943
Denver, CO
I agree, also add it to the list of ways that games, movies and television portray certain subsets of people based on physical attributes or social status. Where's the article that addresses how villains are largely portrayed as overweight in games and movies.
 
Kthulhu

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
I remember reading his previous article. Shame the developers seem to not have taken his complaints to heart.
 
TaySan

TaySan

SayTan
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Dec 10, 2018
31,373
Tulsa, Oklahoma
I'm so sorry he feels that way :( hope the developers will take his complaint to heart for future games. No one should be made uncomfortable.
 
Maneil99

Maneil99

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Nov 2, 2017
5,252
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory false equivalencies and trolling in a sensitive thread; numerous accumulated infraction
5taquitos said:
Expand on this thought, please.
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Polygon loves to find ways to get people outraged at them for clicks. It's a huge reach to claim mutants look like cleft lip people.

Wheee do we draw the line lmao.

Not all German soldiers were nazis
Not all Russians in MW2 are evil
Not all bandits in uncharted are bad
Boomers from L4D attack fat people
Smokers from L4D stigmatize smokers
 
teague

teague

Member
Dec 17, 2018
1,509
I think what's most upsetting to me is the fact that Willits acted like they were going to do something about it, and then someone in the chain gave up and was like "ehh whatever, let's just keep in the part where the villains have a really common real-world condition and we make fun of them for it"
 
Klyka

Klyka

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Oct 25, 2017
18,404
Germany
I haven't seen enough of the game personally yet to properly comment on this. haven't encountered any real "mutants" yet, only like the Max Max inspired "punk people in the desert"
 
Damn Silly

Damn Silly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,186
Read the article earlier, and it was eye-opening as it was something I'd never have picked up on otherwise but is clearly there.

It might honestly be worse that they went "Oh yeah, I'll talk to the guys" and it has done diddly shit.
 
Dothraki Horse

Dothraki Horse

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Dec 28, 2017
495
User Banned (1 Month): Drive-By; Trolling in a sensitive thread and a history of similar behaviour. Account in junior phase.
Now we get offended by imaginary things like mutants and other artistic creations. This world needs to burn all imagined orders to the ground. If you get offended by playing some videos games then you probably need to buckle up because live it's hard and you will gonna get offended often.
 
Maneil99

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
teague said:
I think this article makes a pretty fair point in a world where Disney has been selling the concept that heroes are the pretty ones and villians are ugly for a hundred years.
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That's every media and story in the history of humankind. Good is seen to be perfect vs evil.

Rage 2 isn't some moral grey game
 
Almagest

Almagest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,447
Spain
I imagine the cleft itself is traumatic at some level, so seeing horrific mutants seemingly inspired by the condition must be hard.

Sure, probably only a small number of people qualify for being offended by this, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't voice their concerns and displeasure, that way the devs might reconsider that singular aesthetic decision in the future.
 
teague

teague

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Dec 17, 2018
1,509
Maneil99 said:
That's every media and story in the history of humankind. Good is seen to be perfect vs evil.

Rage 2 isn't some moral grey game
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Is it? Wasn't there some really famous book/film trilogy where the people who end up bringing victory are maybe like, short people who everyone underestimates and the only person who can actually destroy the bad guy is someone "deformed" who everyone hated and thought of as gross/evil? Wait, what was the name of that incredibly well-known and successful book/film trilogy?
 
BossLackey

BossLackey

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Oct 29, 2017
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User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory False Equivalences and Trolling in a Sensitive Thread
Maneil99 said:
Polygon loves to find ways to get people outraged at them for clicks. It's a huge reach to claim mutants look like cleft lip people.

Wheee do we draw the line lmao.

Not all German soldiers were nazis
Not all Russians in MW2 are evil
Not all bandits in uncharted are bad
Boomers from L4D attack fat people
Smokers from L4D stigmatize smokers
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I couldn't agree more. It's exhausting reading about everything that offends people. Because it's literally everything.
 
jph139

jph139

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
14,363
In general, as a society, we should try movie away from "ugliness" as a moral signifier. Human aesthetics have no real ethical weight.

That's a real, REAL big mountain to climb, but it's something to be mindful of, certainly.
 
Maneil99

Maneil99

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Nov 2, 2017
5,252
teague said:
Is it? Wasn't there some really famous book/film trilogy where the people who end up bringing victory are maybe like, short people who everyone underestimates and the only person who can actually destroy the bad guy is someone "deformed" who everyone hated and thought of as gross/evil? Wait, what was the name of that incredibly well-known and successful book/film trilogy?
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Yah... all Elijah Wood is real ugly lmao . We are talking appearance here
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

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Nov 8, 2017
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Dothraki Horse said:
Now we get offended by imaginary things like mutants and other artistic creations. This world needs to burn all imagined orders to the ground. If you get offended by playing some videos games then you probably need to buckle up because live it's hard and you will get offended daily.
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This is a shitty take.
 
Indy in the Fridge

Indy in the Fridge

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
The writer doesn't deserve to be mocked for his opinion. But, I think it's a stretch to suggest that fictionalized mutants in a post-apocalyptic setting were designed as a means to offend. Creature design is always nuanced and body deformities in particular are a hallmark of horror. However, that shouldn't be misconstrued as all deformities = bad/evil person.
 
The Third Heat

The Third Heat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,549
MindofKB said:
The developers definitely could have avoided using cleft lips, but how do you go about making sure no one is uncomfortable with your game? That's a tall order.
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This is where I'm at. It's unfortunate that he feels uncomfortable and no one should feel that way while enjoying something, but he seems to be condemning them for not taking his advice, as if Avalanche was truly wringing its hands over one journalist's objections. I do think there is an overall problem with how disability is portrayed in media and he's right to talk about it on the platform given to him, but yeah... it's a tall order. I hope it inspires more careful thought about it in the future.
 
Serenity Lotus

Serenity Lotus

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Oct 27, 2017
1,496
North Carolina
Indy in the Fridge said:
The writer doesn't deserve to be mocked for his opinion. But, I think it's a stretch to suggest that fictionalized mutants in a post-apocalyptic setting were designed as a means to offend. Creature design is always nuanced and body deformities in particular are a hallmark of horror. However, that shouldn't be misconstrued as all deformities = bad/evil person.
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This is where I stand as well.
 
Carolina Reaper

Carolina Reaper

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
I feel bad for the writer, but I'm not of the opinion that id/Avalanche owed it to anyone to change the game for them. Nor should Tim have given the impression that he might. That was disingenuous.
 
Loudninja

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,171
It goes far beyond just the design of the mutant.
A lot, it turns out! The cleft is used with such frequency that it feels like a visual cue: The exaggerated cleft signifies the most mutated of mutants, subhuman beasts that are caged, ridden like horses, or mounted like animals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There's a lopsided consistency to the world. The better the character, the more traditional their beauty. The sketchier the character, the more deformed. Obviously there are the rare exceptions, but by and large, the "good characters" aren't "mutated." Most human characters look like central casting actors and actresses in post-apocalypse makeup. A little dust here and there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
.
 
Kthulhu

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
MindofKB said:
The developers definitely could have avoided using cleft lips, but how do you go about making sure no one is uncomfortable with your game? That's a tall order.
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That's not what he's asking though. He just doesn't like that the game dehumanizes him to such an extent.


Maneil99 said:
That's every media and story in the history of humankind. Good is seen to be perfect vs evil.

Rage 2 isn't some moral grey game
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Don't you think it's kind of messed up that it's mostly the villains that have atypical bodies and almost none of the heros?

Also protagonists are often shown as being flawed, it is routinely a criticism of fictional characters when they are seen as flawless.
 
teague

teague

Member
Dec 17, 2018
1,509
Maneil99 said:
Yah... all Elijah Wood is real ugly lmao . We are talking appearance here
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huh? you said "Good is seen to be perfect vs evil." But the person who destroys the ring is Gollum, the character that Frodo is initially grossed out by and hates. The point is that someone already morally compromised, outcast, underestimated etc. is the one who defeats the bad guy, kind of by dumb luck. The heroes who are most "perfect" are in fact most susceptible to temptation by evil. I kinda think you missed the point of LOTR here, but this is very OT.

MindofKB said:
The developers definitely could have avoided using cleft lips, but how do you go about making sure no one is uncomfortable with your game? That's a tall order.
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I mean, you could start by not caricaturing the bad guys? There are really lots of good examples of thematically complex pieces of entertainment, including in games. That many people gravitate towards shallow, shitty things that have "good guys pretty bad guys ugly" doesn't somehow morally excuse those things, it just shows that there's a lot of work to do.
 
Huey

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,172
I wouldn't have made the connection myself, but even if Bethesda/Avalanche does nothing, it's good to hear more from people with disabilities and physical differences and how media represents them. We're in a culture where we're striving to increase representation and sometimes I think that doesn't tend to translate very well to people with disabilities.

Maneil99 said:
Polygon loves to find ways to get people outraged at them for clicks. It's a huge reach to claim mutants look like cleft lip people.

Wheee do we draw the line lmao.

Not all German soldiers were nazis
Not all Russians in MW2 are evil
Not all bandits in uncharted are bad
Boomers from L4D attack fat people
Smokers from L4D stigmatize smokers
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

My goodness - what a shitty take. Player describing how a disability is potentially reflected in a game =/= Nazi apologism. What the fuck with this
 
BarryFishFinger

BarryFishFinger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,450
Hard to know how to feel on this one. I'm lucky enough not to have any physical issues, but if I did I can't say how I would feel playing a game that features a very specific take on mine.

But then I would never have made the link between the Rage mutants and those with a cleft palette; maybe that's my privilege at work, but part of me does wonder about how everything seems to have the potential to offend someone. I wonder how the writer would redesign the mutants to offend less? Remove the cleft lip stuff and then what? I do wonder if whatever feature you choose to focus on/distort/exaggerate/remove has the potential to be emotionally upsetting for someone somewhere.

The only presumed solution is to have no humanoid mutants.
 
Jakisthe

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,544
As an individual who has certain...unusually distinguishing physical characteristics (although not weight or a mutation), this seems like a colossal reach to me. No, the author doesn't deserve to be mocked for it, but good luck trying to design enemies which don't take any inspiration from real world characteristics. Like, come on. I'd like to believe that at some point we can look at some component of a game and not think the devs are saying "everyone which shares characteristic A is also characteristic B".
 
Fatmanp

Fatmanp

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Oct 27, 2017
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I am all for progressive things in video games but this is an extreme stretch. It's outrage culture being taken to the next level. Never in a million years would I have associated his condition with one of the mutants.
 
Grailly

Grailly

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Oct 27, 2017
402
Switzerland
teague said:
Is it? Wasn't there some really famous book/film trilogy where the people who end up bringing victory are maybe like, short people who everyone underestimates and the only person who can actually destroy the bad guy is someone "deformed" who everyone hated and thought of as gross/evil? Wait, what was the name of that incredibly well-known and successful book/film trilogy?
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Surely there's a better example than the freaking Lord of the Rings out there. I mean, it's quite literally the worst possible example. Beautiful elves and humans and majestic eagles and Ents fighting for life and nature against gruesome and deformed goblins, orcs and trolls.

Even with your selected example of hobbits and Gollum. Gollum is not a good guy and the hobbits aren't ugly, just unassuming
 
Trickster

Trickster

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,533
I can understand the point of view presented, and why it's hurtful. But at the same time, isn't the rage series set in a dystopian post apocalyptic mad max style setting? Wouldn't it make sense that there'd be people with heavy mutations, and they'd likely be oppressed, treated like outcasts and grow resentful, and/or manipulated by bad people?
 
Kickfister

Kickfister

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May 9, 2019
1,773
Imagine the outrage from the average gamer if instead of abnormal facial features, a game based goodness off of dick size or some shit. All of a sudden I think they'd find representation matters a little bit to them, when it's something a lot of people are incredibly insecure about. It's really funny to imagine the execution of this idea lmao.

In all seriousness though, I never thought about this either. I don't think it's inherently wrong to represent this way given the lore of the game, but can agree that exclusively representing them as evil is a bit of an issue. Honestly, just one NPC with these features, with a little side story about the struggles of looking that way in that world would do a world of good. Would probably be the most engaging story in the game too...
 
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