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Rage 2 is a fun game that makes me feel like garbage - Polygon

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,825
threat of ban for having a opinion that differs from yours.... seems legit.

edit: era members need something to get mad over every day. Yesterday it was the fact that america is called america, today it's this. Video game mutants.
So, your opinion is that Era is to blame for someone with a physical deformity being uncomfortable that a game is treating people just like him as if they're monsters?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,309
Georgia
threat of ban for having a opinion that differs from yours.... seems legit.

edit: era members need something to get mad over every day. Yesterday it was the fact that america is called america, today it's this. Video game mutants.
Nobody's mad

The only people who I ever notice that are mad are people who post comments like these

Is it really hard to just be capable of showing empathy while disagreeing? I mean you put a lot of brain capacity for getting mad over reviews, that might be a healthier alternative
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,702
threat of ban for having a opinion that differs from yours.... seems legit.

edit: era members need something to get mad over every day. Yesterday it was the fact that america is called america, today it's this. Video game mutants.
We don't NEED something to get mad at, there just happen to be a lot of things to be angry about because there are countless examples of hate/harm/ignorance/bigotry/racism/etc... it's a constant, heavy stream.

It's a GOOD thing to stand up to all of this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
214
whole lot of shitheads in this thread, good lord. empathise for once.
Yup. Tons of people acting in bad-faith or being willfully ignorant & not reading the article. Always comes up around these types of topics too. Fucking ridiculous.

On topic, it's a great article by Chris Plante and I'm glad he's speaking up about this. The least we can do is listen and try to do better.
 
Nov 1, 2017
4,904
UK
I suppose this thread could be an interesting place to discuss the beautiful=good/ugly=evil trope that perpetuates media, games included.

Or I guess we could just call each other crybabies, that works too.

That said, I wonder if this topic was presented in the context of a self-written thread rather than a Polygon article (I get that people have their gripes with them), whether people would be as immediately hostile towards the very idea of discussing it. Wilfully ignoring the existence of a trope just to dunk on a publication doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,825


Both sides gonna fight and call each other names ... can we have a civilized discussion?
How do you have a civilized discussion with people who are saying "lol polygon" or calling the writer "soft"? We can try to explain things a hundred times - and personally, I think it's the minimum you can do to try to explain it once - but you can't force anyone to listen if they've entered the conversation choosing not to.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,309
Georgia
This is one of my more favorite things about this thread are the same six or so people storming into topics like these, going "ERA NEEDS SOMETHING TO GET MAD AT EVERYDAY!!!!!!!!" when like, that's not the tone at all

And yet these are the same people that'll get bitchy about getting banned and probably run to the bore to whine about their bans until the timer lapses

Me? I don't give a fuck tbh but even then I'm capable of showing the slightest amount of empathy towards topics, even if I do agree or disagree.

Both sides gonna fight and call each other names ... can we have a civilized discussion?
Don't give shitheads a platform to appear credible, you shithead. "Civilized discussion" lmfao fuck outta here with this faux mediator shit, go outside. go buy a RC cola

It's amazing how it's the SAME PEOPLE crying for a civilized discussion yet they're the half-mouths that come in with memes instead of anything 'civilized' or 'stimulating' to think over

Why don't you just, like leave lmfao
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,451
We don't NEED something to get mad at, there just happen to be a lot of things to be angry about because there are countless examples of hate/harm/ignorance/bigotry/racism/etc... it's a constant, heavy stream.

It's a GOOD thing to stand up to all of this.
It's not a matter of getting mad. Like the users who think this is all about being "offended" point out, there's a billion things out there that are shitty. The status quo on things like the depiction of facial disfigurements in media is shitty. Doesn't mean it needs to stay that way. And the only way we can start moving to something better is by recognizing a problem when it shows up.
 
Last edited:
Apr 7, 2019
174
I don't agree, but I won't mock the guy. I have an issue myself: dogs. Breaks my fucking heart when you have to hurt dogs in games, to the point once dropped a game when I accidentally spoiled myself about a minor scene where you had to put a dog down. Just makes me uncomfortable as all hell. I understand why devs use them though, and unless it borders on torture porn levels of pointless/tasteless I'll just avoid stuff that bothers me.

But while I don't agree with forcing devs to remove types of content that bothers certain people, I won't ever mock those people for feeling that way. I'm "one of them", after all.
Pretty much this do not make it a social issue and force devs to censor remove things. But feel what you feel
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,652
i think that the developers intention is to show that the enemies got the cleft from being mutated not the other way around.

having the cleft is not what made them mutants.

STILL.

the point is very valid, most people will only see "cleft = bad" and that's it.
 
Jan 24, 2018
45
I can see where the author's coming from, and I respect their opinion, but I can honestly say as someone who has a facial deformity himself,and a very noticeable one at that, I'm just simply not bothered by this all that much.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,367
This is one of my more favorite things about this thread are the same six or so people storming into topics like these, going "ERA NEEDS SOMETHING TO GET MAD AT EVERYDAY!!!!!!!!" when like, that's not the tone at all

And yet these are the same people that'll get bitchy about getting banned and probably run to the bore to whine about their bans until the timer lapses

Me? I don't give a fuck tbh but even then I'm capable of showing the slightest amount of empathy towards topics, even if I do agree or disagree.



Don't give shitheads a platform to appear credible, you shithead. "Civilized discussion" lmfao fuck outta here with this faux mediator shit, go outside. go buy a RC cola

It's amazing how it's the SAME PEOPLE crying for a civilized discussion yet they're the half-mouths that come in with memes instead of anything 'civilized' or 'stimulating' to think over

Why don't you just, like leave lmfao
it's not their fault that polygon articles are the anita to their sargon
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,702
Pretty much this do not make it a social issue and force devs to censor remove things. But feel what you feel
But... it IS a social issue.

Perpetuating negative stereotypes and tropes of people already vulnerable to negative perception is a bad thing.

I don't understand how people cannot see this, truly.

"Feel what you feel, but don't stand up and call for change"?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,309
Georgia
It'll always be the same half-baked whataboutism used as a part of the 'civilized discussion' because it's such an easy and risk-free alternative to internet discussions
 
Dec 17, 2018
338
I suppose this thread could be an interesting place to discuss the beautiful=good/ugly=evil trope that perpetuates media, games included.
We were trying for a little bit but jeez it didn't go well, personally I also screwed it up by having a bad first example (sorry). But yeah it's a real big problem, especially in the age of social media where there are now a thousand times as many damaging, over-idealized "beautiful" representations to compare yourself to as before, and it's expected more than ever that you live up to those unrealistic standards. And as always disingenuous corporations are more than happy to jump on the bandwagon with cynical takes on "non-traditionally attractive people can be the hero" where it's like, someone who has a different hair color or some shit. Or like that one Netflix show where the main character was bullied for her weight and then became skinny and got revenge and the marketing was like "body positivity!! hooray!!"
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,486
Las Vegas
I can understand the point of view presented, and why it's hurtful. But at the same time, isn't the rage series set in a dystopian post apocalyptic mad max style setting? Wouldn't it make sense that there'd be people with heavy mutations, and they'd likely be oppressed, treated like outcasts and grow resentful, and/or manipulated by bad people?
I haven't played Rage 2 but yes, you're right.

But one way to counter this is to have characters with this kind of mutation / art design also be good characters / heroes.

If all the bad guys you shoot are people with real world disabilities and 'mutations' it's not a good look.
 
Aug 11, 2018
696
I don't agree, but I won't mock the guy. I have an issue myself: dogs. Breaks my fucking heart when you have to hurt dogs in games, to the point once dropped a game when I accidentally spoiled myself about a minor scene where you had to put a dog down. Just makes me uncomfortable as all hell. I understand why devs use them though, and unless it borders on torture porn levels of pointless/tasteless I'll just avoid stuff that bothers me.

But while I don't agree with forcing devs to remove types of content that bothers certain people, I won't ever mock those people for feeling that way. I'm "one of them", after all.
there's a difference with feeling uncomfortable with a scene because it makes you sad/upset and being uncomfortable with a scene because it perpetuates fictional stereotypes that influence the way we perceive and treat each other
 
Nov 14, 2017
1,157
I suppose this thread could be an interesting place to discuss the beautiful=good/ugly=evil trope that perpetuates media, games included.

Or I guess we could just call each other crybabies, that works too.

That said, I wonder if this topic was presented in the context of a self-written thread rather than a Polygon article (I get that people have their gripes with them), whether people would be as immediately hostile towards the very idea of discussing it. Wilfully ignoring the existence of a trope just to dunk on a publication doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
This thread is a great example of the venn diagram between 1) people who have a constant axe to grind with Polygon, and 2) people who don't want real life issues brought into their video games.

There are plenty of video game sites I don't like, and yet, whenever an Easy Allies thread comes up, I don't run in there and complain. I just don't understand this mentality. Especially when there are people attempting to engage with the actual content of the article.
 
Oct 30, 2017
324
They are helping perpetuate negative stereotypes.

This is literally how it works: media presents things, people's perceptions are effected. Don't be naive.
If you think people with cleft lips are murderous psychopaths based on a monstrous character from Rage 2 you are delusional. Not saying you do im saying that generally speaking.
 
Dec 17, 2018
338
there's a difference with feeling uncomfortable with a scene because it makes you sad/upset and being uncomfortable with a scene because it perpetuates fictional stereotypes that influence the way we perceive and treat each other
I think the issue is summed up nicely by the fact that the people saying "just let devs do what they want and don't get offended" struggle to come up with real examples where the problem is demonizing a historically marginalized/persecuted/otherized group. I.e., they are lacking the empathy to put themselves in a position where that is even like an understandable thought

instead it's like, "not all Germans are Nazis" and "sometimes it's sad to do x in a game but I just avoid it"
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,702
If you think people with cleft lips are murderous psychopaths based on a monstrous character from Rage 2 you are delusional. Not saying you do im saying that generally speaking.
Literally no one is saying this, so I have no idea why it's even a point you consider valid.

You truly cannot even begin to imagine how negative portrayal and tropes regarding people who already have social stigma can be harmful?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,043
I couldn't agree more. It's exhausting reading about everything that offends people. Because it's literally everything.
My goodness, if some of you weaklings are so exhausted by people having different opinions or viewpoints than you do about things, why do you even come on the internet? "Oh my God, someone had a critical viewpoint about something that I don't understand...I'm sooooo EXHAUSTED."

How sad. Most normal people read the critique or don't and agree with it or don't and then move on.

That would be hilarious. I now want the AAA game story of the "Big dick hero" mowing down all the "micro penis" enemies in an open world.
We can call the game "Size Matters".
Nah, the problem here is that most gamers think that they're the dude with the big dick.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,468
This is a different perspective, and different perspectives are good.

Although... isn't the usual trope in postapocalyptic fiction that the cleanest, most normal looking people are often the villains who were wealthy enough to avoid the full impact of the disaster?
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,538
The article raises an important point that I had never considered. Beyond just equating attractiveness with goodness (which seems pretty common in media, unfortunately), representing the cleft lip as a monstrous/villainous trait has huge implications that I was not paying attention to.

It's a real bummer that Bethesda/Avalanche were so inconsiderate given that they directly addressed the criticism pre-release.


Good article, Polygon.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,136
This is a different perspective, and different perspectives are good.

Although... isn't the usual trope in postapocalyptic fiction that the most cleanest, most normal looking people are often the villains who were wealthy enough to avoid the full impact of the disaster?
Yeah it's kinda bizarre that the inverse happens here. I think Avalanche just didn't really think this through.
 
Nov 6, 2017
2,454
The writer doesn't deserve to be mocked for his opinion. But, I think it's a stretch to suggest that fictionalized mutants in a post-apocalyptic setting were designed as a means to offend. Creature design is always nuanced and body deformities in particular are a hallmark of horror. However, that shouldn't be misconstrued as all deformities = bad/evil person.
Yeah, but they accidently made the cleft version of Resident Evil 5, so I understand the point being made.

If we want ever games to be taken seriously as art then we also have the burden of examining what message that art is conveying. This is actually one of the better Polygon articles.
 
May 9, 2019
51
Don't give shitheads a platform to appear credible, you shithead. "Civilized discussion" lmfao fuck outta here with this faux mediator shit, go outside. go buy a RC cola
I don't disagree with your criticism of that guys contribution, but I don't think he was calling for some galaxy brain debate circle jerk about compromise and finding a middle ground between something hateful and something...not. I don't think that's what most people saying that really want. I think he was calling for recognizing where they are coming from, deconstructing it to form your counter argument, and if they continue to hate, only then calling them out on it. Treat them human, and treat their argument in good faith before assuming they're just shitty people. Then again, I'm new here, maybe these people are just known for that and it's hopeless.

I should add that if your effort to get them to elaborate is futile, they kinda get whatever is coming to em.

Also, this should at the very least be done for the lurkers that don't have an opinion yet and are looking for more information. They're the minds you'll most easily change if they're leaning the other way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
267
i was born with cleft lip / palate

i can empathize with the author but i wonder if he is a horror buff or not? i've always been glad to be repped by my boy francis in hannibal



i don't mind much personally seeing monsters with facial deformities, it's a pretty common horror trope
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,538
This is a different perspective, and different perspectives are good.

Although... isn't the usual trope in postapocalyptic fiction that the most cleanest, most normal looking people are often the villains who were wealthy enough to avoid the full impact of the disaster?
Outside of maaaybe the Resident Evil movies, I'd say the opposite is true. In Mad Max-style stuff (desert apocalypse?) and a lot of zombie fiction, the most unkempt, disfigured, or just wild-looking individuals are the "baddies".

I'm not exactly a connossoir of post-apoc media so perhaps my view is skewed, though.
 
Dec 17, 2018
338
I don't disagree with your criticism of that guys contribution, but I don't think he was calling for some galaxy brain debate circle jerk about compromise and finding a middle ground between something hateful and something...not. […] Then again, I'm new here, maybe these people are just known for that and it's hopeless.
Ya I think at this point "civilized debate" is kind of a dog-whistle, which sucks because yeah ideally we could do that, but at the same time who gets to decide what is "civilized?" Historically deciding that some topics are out of bounds has been one of the best tools for perpetuating injustice, so a lot of people clamoring for "civilized debate" are unfortunately often dog-whistling for "don't let your poor baby feelings get hurt and let's debate with FACTS and LOGIC"
 
there's a difference with feeling uncomfortable with a scene because it makes you sad/upset and being uncomfortable with a scene because it perpetuates fictional stereotypes that influence the way we perceive and treat each other
Uh, I'm very much aware of that. My point is it's really shitty to make fun of people for being bothered by certain types of content, even if it doesn't bother you.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,136
Yeah, but they accidently made the cleft version of Resident Evil 5, so I understand the point being made.

If we want ever games to be taken seriously as art then we also have the burden of examining what message that art is conveying. This is actually one of the better Polygon articles.
Agreed. Something doesn't have be intentional to be offensive to someone.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,556
Hey, some of us are just new! lol
Sorry lol. Didn't mean anything against you.

I'm not trying to post shame or anything, but it's pretty common for the accounts that are relatively old with low post counts and no avatar to be the ones to post one sentence posts that are dismissive of whatever is being discussed and then bail or proceed to argue in bad faith until they get bored or they're banned.
 
May 9, 2019
51
Ya I think at this point "civilized debate" is kind of a dog-whistle, which sucks because yeah ideally we could do that, but at the same time who gets to decide what is "civilized?" Historically deciding that some topics are out of bounds has been one of the best tools for perpetuating injustice, so a lot of people clamoring for "civilized debate" are unfortunately often dog-whistling for "don't let your poor baby feelings get hurt and let's debate with FACTS and LOGIC"
This is absolutely a concern, but I don't think it's grounds for throwing the whole effort out the window. It's an individual effort, and part of the process is determining that. One thing I can say is that it sucks to be on the "wrong side" of an argument and be dismissed preemptively because someone has already full painted a picture of you (incorrectly). I'm sure everybody can relate to that to some capacity.
 
Dec 17, 2018
338
Agreed. Something doesn't have be intentional to be offensive to someone.
I wonder what the mental image of people arguing this is

"Hahaha I'm Walt Disney and I'm super racist, everyone who's not white is really gonna be offended by this latest one, their pain is my pleasure"

The whole point of "implicit bias" and structural inequality is that prejudices are often not fully consciously articulated. If we couldn't call out things that aren't fully explicit or intentional we couldn't get anywhere.
 
Nov 17, 2017
14,143
Utah
Come ON guys. Even if you disagree with the article and author, there is absolutely no reason, zero, nada, zip, no reason whatsoever to mock the author for what he wrote. You can ignore it and move on with your blissful life. Mocking and attacking him for being uncomfortable makes you look like a absolute jerk who complains more about the people ruining "muh vidya gamez" than the ones who are actually saying that things need to be better.

I never thought about the subject that the author presented. Does that mean that I can roll my eyes and call him names? No. It means that maybe I should be more mindful and attentive to things like this and understand.

And then we have Steve Spohn! He's such an awesome guy who lives with a disability that some of us don't have! He obviously agrees and that only shows that yes, while these characters are fictional, we shouldn't always dismiss other's thoughts as garbage.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,702
I wonder what the mental image of people arguing this is

"Hahaha I'm Walt Disney and I'm super racist, everyone who's not white is really gonna be offended by this latest one, their pain is my pleasure"

The whole point of "implicit bias" and structural inequality is that prejudices are often not fully consciously articulated. If we couldn't call out things that aren't fully explicit or intentional we couldn't get anywhere.
Well said.
 
Dec 18, 2017
307
If you think people with cleft lips are murderous psychopaths based on a monstrous character from Rage 2 you are delusional. Not saying you do im saying that generally speaking.
But that’s not what it does. Demonization only really gets that far in more extreme scenarios, like propaganda campaigns. This kind of relatively low-hum, undetected demonization is the kind of stuff that imbeds stigmas we don’t detect. Like being less likely to approach someone in your workplace with a physical disability/condition for help on something because of an imbedded notion of discomfort with their condition. You don’t necessarily consciously notice it, or put malice behind it, but it flares up when you’re making quick decisions or instinctual judgements. Part of a healthy lifestyle is probing why you decided to do one thing vs. the other, but we make so many decisions in a day that it sometimes takes someone bringing it up for you to recognize you might be following a distasteful stigma. If appearance based discrimination isn’t part of your day-to-day, it might be harder for you to recognize when you’re participating in it.

An example of this in another context would be the pushback we’ve been seeing against the “you should smile more” comments a lot of women receive in otherwise inappropriate contexts. I doubt most people making that comment mean ill by it, but because gender/presentability politics might not be part of their day-to-day, they may not recognize that something they said would make someone else feel uncomfortable/othered.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,849
It’s really fucking disappointing coming from this forum. It’s the sort of shit I expect to see on Reddit, not Resetera, which makes me wonder why I’m on Resetera in the first place.
Era is not the progressive haven that a lot of people think it is.

The mutations are so extremely exaggerated I find it hard to see it reflecting the real world
I am reminded of a time where I was at Disney world with my, then very young, niece and a woman with a very large facial disfigurement walked by. She cringed, pointed, clutched my arm, then laughed as soon as she thought the woman was out of ear shot.

While it may not be something a extreme as one man grafted another another heavily mutated other man, it is EXTREMELY easy how biases against people who are physically different can be bolstered by pop media.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,367
question, does these cleft enemies are characters that are the baddies?

or just copy-pasted mob enemies?
the author does a pretty good job explaining the frequency and context in which it appears in the game. i think i would be remiss by giving you an objectively less thorough summary, thus depriving you of the opportunity to read the article in its entirety.