Rage 2 is a fun game that makes me feel like garbage - Polygon

-PXG-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,134
NJ
The writer doesn't deserve to be mocked for his opinion. But, I think it's a stretch to suggest that fictionalized mutants in a post-apocalyptic setting were designed as a means to offend. Creature design is always nuanced and body deformities in particular are a hallmark of horror. However, that shouldn't be misconstrued as all deformities = bad/evil person.
This
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,640
Madrid
If you get offended by playing some videos games then you probably need to buckle up because live it's hard and you will gonna get offended often.
Whatever would we do without the wise, profound advice of someone who writes "life is hard" as "live it's hard".

The writer doesn't deserve to be mocked for his opinion. But, I think it's a stretch to suggest that fictionalized mutants in a post-apocalyptic setting were designed as a means to offend.
It's almost as if nobody said it was "designed as a means to offend", but hey, don't let that get in the way of a perfectly good strawman.

Also, is your argument that offense that is unintentional should not be commented upon?
 

laser

Member
Feb 17, 2018
162
What exactly is the bias? The game has mutants in a post apocalyptic world. They have all sorts of various mutations. A cleft lip is an actual mutation that humans get. Is the game actually saying "They are bad guys specifically because of their appearance"? Because nothing I can find makes it seem that way.
I mean, it's literally a quote in the OP and the article.

A lot, it turns out! The cleft is used with such frequency that it feels like a visual cue: The exaggerated cleft signifies the most mutated of mutants, subhuman beasts that are caged, ridden like horses, or mounted like animals.
There’s a lopsided consistency to the world. The better the character, the more traditional their beauty. The sketchier the character, the more deformed. Obviously there are the rare exceptions, but by and large, the “good characters” aren’t “mutated.” Most human characters look like central casting actors and actresses in post-apocalypse makeup. A little dust here and there.
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,640
Madrid
What exactly is the bias? The game has mutants in a post apocalyptic world. They have all sorts of various mutations. A cleft lip is an actual mutation that humans get. Is the game actually saying "They are bad guys specifically because of their appearance"? Because nothing I can find makes it seem that way.
According to the article, yes, actually.

There’s a lopsided consistency to the world. The better the character, the more traditional their beauty. The sketchier the character, the more deformed. Obviously there are the rare exceptions, but by and large, the “good characters” aren’t “mutated.” Most human characters look like central casting actors and actresses in post-apocalypse makeup. A little dust here and there.
 
Feb 15, 2018
24
Why are so many people being banned for saying things that are just as if not more vulgar than "gamers are shitty" but
No, you dropped in with a trash drive-by and got called out rightly.

Swine was fitting.
Why is name calling only OK when certain people do it?

What is the qualifier for being able to call people names and it not be a punishable offense?

I'm asking because I am new here and want to make sure I get the rules nice and clear.
 

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
468
Minneapolis
I feel his pain. It's hard to only see yourself in negative images.

When you finally see yourself in a positive light - or even a neutral light - it's so important and affirming. That's why Spiderverse and Black Panther and Wonder Woman resonated so hard with people. I grew up gay in the AIDS-ravaged 80's and it was awful. Always dirty, immoral, villainous, less than. It was two decades or so later that I ever saw a positive portrayal. It absolutely fucked me up. Still fucked up, even with every other category of privilege (white, male, educated, socioeconomic, etc). Your mileage may vary; not everyone is wired for it to scar so deeply.

Representation absolutely matters. Positive representation. Plante's reaction is his own, and it's real, and it's not for any of us to judge his opinions and feelings as unfounded or unworthy.

I think the ignoring of concerns is more scarring than the actual characters. Being unseen is one thing - being unseen after you've been seen by that person is absolutely worse. Props to him for putting this out there. He knew what some of those reactions would be and still spoke his mind. Good on him.
 

SleepSmasher

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,456
Australia
The only thing that bothers me here is that he could've put that article up a year ago when Rage 2 was first revealed, or at least some months ago when the game was previewed by the press and the article's author himself.
 

Ivory Samoan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
502
New Zealand
I get that the author is heartfelt in his feelings, but it's no doubt also hard for a dev to take into account all things when designing a game: and for the record, I have family with this affliction in childhood along with my God daughter.
 

newmoneytrash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,048
Melbourne, Australia
The only thing that bothers me here is that he could've put that article up a year ago when Rage 2 was first revealed, or at least some months ago when the game was previewed by the press and the article's author himself.
he did write an article about it a year ago

https://www.polygon.com/e3/2018/6/14/17462430/rage-2-interview-e3-2018-id-avalanche

more so he talked to them directly about it in the interview and they responded to be sensitive about this and exploring changing it, so seeing it still in there is obviously something that chris would be sensitive about
 

Eugene's Axe

Member
Jan 17, 2019
348
The lack of empathy in this thread is disgusting. Daily reminder that I share my hobby (video games) with a bunch of spoiled brats.
 

Majora's Mask

Member
Oct 26, 2017
556
I saw the article making the rounds yesterday in Twitter and, to be honest, I never thought about it. Guess that is what happens when you are privileged enough to not have been born with any kind of disability like this.

Representation is important, and when you often see someone with disabilities be the bad guy, well yeah, it sucks. As a mexican myself, I will very often cringe and roll my eyes at the latest videogame featuring a mexican or latin american cartel like that is all what we are.

The example I gave is obviously not in any way, shape or form similar to what the OP of the article experiences when he sees yet another deformed creature as the bad guy, but I see where he is coming from.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,487
The answer to "what we do about it" is just like live and act as though these are real valid criticisms and take it into account in your character designs. That doesn't mean you can't use exaggerated deformities in character design (that's literally what physical mutation is), but be aware that you're doing it! And maybe that'll lead you to interrogating the psychology of why you're giving certain features to certain characters
 

17 Seconds

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,589
User Banned (Permanent): Modwhining and history of dismissive behavior; excessive accumulated infractions
the article makes interesting/valid points, but a lot of the bans in this thread are just insane to me. i don't know if this post will be considered thread whining or whatever, but we should be allowed to voice concerns over what the line is. many of the banned people in this thread really didn't seem to cross any lines. it's way over the top.
 

17 Seconds

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,589
It’s really fucking disappointing coming from this forum. It’s the sort of shit I expect to see on Reddit, not Resetera, which makes me wonder why I’m on Resetera in the first place.
maybe instead of thinking that this isn't the progressive place you thought it was, you should consider the fact that maybe it IS, and that there is validity to this argument.

i see the "i'm so disappointed in era" posts all the time, and it always sounds like a complete lack of self-awareness. like, no way i could possibly wrong, the site i usually agree with must be wrong this time!
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,537
the article makes interesting/valid points, but a lot of the bans in this thread are just insane to me. i don't know if this post will be considered thread whining or whatever, but we should be allowed to voice concerns over what the line is. many of the banned people in this thread really didn't seem to cross any lines. it's way over the top.
Why do you think so? Explain why you think the bans are unearned. Is it the people asking to be banned? The people who had a knee jerk reaction to someone explaining how a game made them feel?
 

17 Seconds

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,589
Why do you think so? Explain why you think the bans are unearned. Is it the people asking to be banned? The people who had a knee jerk reaction to someone explaining how a game made them feel?
many of the offenses that people got banned for on the first pages basically amounted to them saying "i don't find that offensive". i'm not even going to bother arguing it anymore. i'll probably already get banned for even saying anything. i just think it's crazy how some people can't see how extreme the bans have gotten.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
624
many of the offenses that people got banned for on the first pages basically amounted to them saying "i don't find that offensive". i'm not even going to bother arguing it anymore. i'll probably already get banned for even saying anything. i just think it's crazy how some people can't see how extreme the bans have gotten.
If you have issues with moderation you should message them.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,979
the article makes interesting/valid points, but a lot of the bans in this thread are just insane to me. i don't know if this post will be considered thread whining or whatever, but we should be allowed to voice concerns over what the line is. many of the banned people in this thread really didn't seem to cross any lines. it's way over the top.
What line? Why does there need to be a line with what we can and can't discuss? Because thats the main point of the article, to discuss an issue the author has with framing particular physical deformities and what that subtext says about real life. So when people voice concern over "where the line is?", it reads like nothing but an attempt to dramatize the conversation and act like the point of the message is to take away a game they enjoy when the reality is, its just a discussion. Theres no need to ask where the line is, when one wasn't being drawn.

maybe instead of thinking that this isn't the progressive place you thought it was, you should consider the fact that maybe it IS, and that there is validity to this argument.

i see the "i'm so disappointed in era" posts all the time, and it always sounds like a complete lack of self-awareness. like, no way i could possibly wrong, the site i usually agree with must be wrong this time!
Or people who make shitty drive by posts like "this is the most polygon article ever" or distorting the meaning of the article to be something akin to nazi germany and asking "BuT wHeRe Do We DrAw Da LiNe?" is a pretty shitty response to an author expressing concern over the portrayl of features that effect people in real life and what the narrative of the game is evidencing about those features IE only evil bad mutants are deformed.
 

newmoneytrash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,048
Melbourne, Australia
imagine thinking era was progressive. this is the most centrist site in existence. we can’t discuss the most innocuous social issues without a dozen account coming in and saying wow what a liberal circle jerk you guys get offended about everything
 

GHG

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
to those who were banned

the stance you took in this thread is the same stance you would have taken at the black community when they started speaking out prior to the civil rights movment
that flippant "what's the big deal"/"it's always been this way" is excatly the attitude that the movement faced at every turn, and it all stems from the i've never heard anyone complain before. as tho they've done any leg work on the subject when they haven't
If you're a black person you should be ashamed of yourself. If you're not a black person stop with this bullshit, you're not helping in the slightest.

Trying to equate the reaction to this with the reaction to the civil rights movement... Give me fucking strength.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,156
If you're a black person you should be ashamed of yourself. If you're not a black person stop with this bullshit, you're not helping in the slightest.

Trying to equate the reaction to this with the reaction to the civil rights movement... Give me fucking strength.
If you think this the flippant attitude displayed in this thread wasn't prevalent back then, i have so many bridges to sell you
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
973
imagine thinking era was progressive. this is the most centrist site in existence. we can’t discuss the most innocuous social issues without a dozen account coming in and saying wow what a liberal circle jerk you guys get offended about everything
There doesn’t seem to be much discussion at all. What are the two sides here?
 

GHG

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
If you think this the flippant attitude displayed in this thread wasn't prevalent back then, i have so many bridges to sell you
Sell me all the bridges you have, you're not going to convince me that people who don't have a problem with cleft lipped zombies are the same as people who opposed or didn't support the civil rights movement. What a fucking reach.

imagine thinking era was progressive. this is the most centrist site in existence. we can’t discuss the most innocuous social issues without a dozen account coming in and saying wow what a liberal circle jerk you guys get offended about everything
When shit like the posts I quoted above are allowed to slide can you blame people? There's no middle ground here, no discussion allowed. You're either a racist nazi or a tree hugging SJW. Those two sides scream at each other while everyone else gets drowned out or refrains from participating.

It's a fucking mess.
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,537
Sell me all the bridges you have, you're not going to convince me that people who don't have a problem with cleft lipped zombies are the same as people who opposed or didn't support the civil rights movement. What a fucking reach.



When shit like the posts I quoted above are allowed to slide can you blame people? There's no middle ground here, no discussion allowed. You're either a racist nazi or a tree hugging SJW. Those two sides scream at each other while everyone else gets drowned out or refrains from participating.

It's a fucking mess.
Really? Cuz I read plenty of thoughtful post stuff about people never having thought of this before. Or some talking about how insensitive it is to say you’ll address this as a game developer and then ignore the concerns altogether. But nope, I guess I misread those.
 

Bramblebutt

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,318
many of the offenses that people got banned for on the first pages basically amounted to them saying "i don't find that offensive". i'm not even going to bother arguing it anymore. i'll probably already get banned for even saying anything. i just think it's crazy how some people can't see how extreme the bans have gotten.
I can't tell you what you find offensive, but immediately characterizing the author's grievances as insincere clickbait or suggesting he should be mocked for finding offense at all is pretty fucking shitty, especially considering he has a pretty good point about the game carelessly invoking a common physical deformity, which in reality has no bearing on a person's intelligence or moral character, as a marker of mindlessness, moral degeneracy, and outright inhumanity. These depictions are, at best, tone-deaf to the strong stigma faced by people born with this condition. At worst, they might be seen as contributing to the stigma.

Now if you have a counterargument to that, that's cool. But if a poster's gonna toss out the very premise of argument and just label it "outrage culture," I'm not gonna cry tears when I see him banned for trolling.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,156
Sell me all the bridges you have, you're not going to convince me that people who don't have a problem with cleft lipped zombies are the same as people who opposed or didn't support the civil rights movement. What a fucking reach.
I'm not here to convince you of anything, all the bans on the first page made my point
 

VN1X

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,212
Really odd issue imo and even though I'm someone who gets looks when out in public on a regular basis, due to my own 'body deformity', I do not sympathize with the author at all. I'm physically inhibited even yet despite that never hid behind my chronic disorder or felt weird when dealing with content that features this type of thing. That's not to say I haven't had my fair share of mental fall backs over the years (because it does take a toll obviously) and while everyone deals with their own afflictions differently I think this a bit too much, personally.

I'm sorry for the writer and that they feel this way but other people shouldn't have to feel bad for playing Rage 2 because of this.
 
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GHG

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
I'm not here to convince you of anything, all the bans on the first page made my point
It's actually sad that you think it's ok to associate apathy towards one journalist with a keyboard and a cleft lip with apathy towards a movement that sought to bring an end to the suffering, oppression and (more often than not) physical abuse faced by black people across multiple generations. A problem that was so ingrained in society that these issues are still prevalent today on a global scale to varying degrees.

To put it mildly I don't appreciate you trivialising the civil rights movement in order to try and prove a point in relation to some of the reactions to the article in the OP.

And if you think that getting banned here is a barometer for anything then I have a bridge to sell to you.
 
Sep 3, 2018
47
so you want them to make a game with mutants where all the mutants look unmutated? and ignore that you can only design a human mutation that is still humanoid looking so many ways.
This just feels like a lack of creativity. There's plenty of ways to show someone is mutated without necessarily using real life deformities.
 

Stop It

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,716
It's actually sad that you think it's ok to associate apathy towards one journalist with a keyboard and a cleft lip with apathy towards a movement that sought to bring an end to the suffering, oppression and (more often than not) physical abuse faced by black people across multiple generations. A problem that was so ingrained in society that these issues are still prevalent today on a global scale to varying degrees.

To put it mildly I don't appreciate you trivialising the civil rights movement in order to try and prove a point in relation to some of the reactions to the article in the OP.

And if you think that getting banned here is a barometer for anything then I have a bridge to sell to you.
It isn't the point they were making at all.

What is wrong with you.

The point is that apathy for things that do not affect them is commonplace. Just like how people handwave racism even now because it doesn't affect them.

Look at the Danny Baker situation for how racism is still handwaved away and how yes, civil rights movements across the world are ignored and denigrated by those who do not care about the people hurt.

Instead of trying to create a situation where you can defend this shit, how about acknowledgment that this just isn't on and people who are affected by depictions of disability and disfigurement as a negative trait in media deserve to be heard?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,156
It isn't the point they were making at all.

What is wrong with you.

The point is that apathy for things that do not affect them is commonplace. Just like how people handwave racism even now because it doesn't affect them.

Look at the Danny Baker situation for how racism is still handwaved away and how yes, civil rights movements across the world are ignored and denigrated by those who do not care about the people hurt.

Instead of trying to create a situation where you can defend this shit, how about acknowledgment that this just isn't on and people who are affected by depictions of disability and disfigurement as a negative trait in media deserve to be heard?
well said
 

Joris-truly

Member
Nov 1, 2017
45
Netherlands
Those comments...

My brother took his own life for not feeling accepted as an equal human being due to his deformaties. And people call Chris "whiny"? Some people have no idea.
 
Dec 30, 2018
1,442
I feel empathy for the writer and can understand why that would be upsetting for him, I can't imagine what that must feel like.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
so you want them to make a game with mutants where all the mutants look unmutated? and ignore that you can only design a human mutation that is still humanoid looking so many ways.
Have you even bothered to read the thread?
Why are so many people being banned for saying things that are just as if not more vulgar than "gamers are shitty" but

Why is name calling only OK when certain people do it?

What is the qualifier for being able to call people names and it not be a punishable offense?

I'm asking because I am new here and want to make sure I get the rules nice and clear.
A poster was banned, their actions were shitty and they got called on it. They were called a swine because that's what they were being.

There are examples of gamers being shitty ITT.

If you can't work it out yourself I'm not going to spell it out for you.
 
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SolidChamp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,011
Take note:

One of the rapists in Leaving Las Vegas has a cleft and is mentally disabled.

So is Dollarhyde in Red Dragon.

So it’s not baseless at all.
 
Dec 11, 2017
43
I have red hair and a stepdad and see "red headed stepchild" used in articles to highlight a negative point of a subject. It doesn't make me feel very good. I get on with life.
 
Dec 30, 2018
1,442
I have red hair and a stepdad and see "red headed stepchild" used in articles to highlight a negative point of a subject. It doesn't make me feel very good. I get on with life.
First of all, I am sorry you have to experience that.

Secondly, the writer is also getting on with his life he is just highlighting an issue that impacts him personally, I think people should be able to share what affects them because speaking out has a positive impact on people who also feel the same way and can also allow people who don't suffer from disabilities to see things from a different perspective.

We see it with mental health all the time, speaking out is massively important.
 

Ghost305

Member
Jan 6, 2018
742
User Banned (A Week): Trolling in a sensitive thread; Dismissing Racism. Accumulated infractions.
If this is the same dude who kept complaining about cleft lips during Geoff Keighley’s E3 coverage last year...please accept a very prolonged *eyeroll*.

This reeks of the same idiocy that tried to promote Resident Evil 5 as racist.

Speaking as a black male.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
If this is the same dude who kept complaining about cleft lips during Geoff Keighley’s E3 coverage last year...please accept a very prolonged *eyeroll*.

This reeks of the same idiocy that tried to promote Resident Evil 5 as racist.
Your lack of empathy and understanding of how negative stereotypes, representation, and tropes can perpetuate negative social perceptions is quite concerning and upsetting.

EDIT for your own edit: "Speaking as a black male" doesn't somehow make your lack of empathy more palatable.
 

Triscuitable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,975
If this is the same dude who kept complaining about cleft lips during Geoff Keighley’s E3 coverage last year...please accept a very prolonged *eyeroll*.

This reeks of the same idiocy that tried to promote Resident Evil 5 as racist.
It's a totally valid criticism on the author's part. Even if not everyone can directly relate to his frustration and concern, we can at least offer our sympathy, instead of completely dismissing the issue (as you've done).

Additionally, the RE5 reveal was racist. A white dude shooting black people en masse looks bad, no matter how you spin it.
 

Keasar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,252
Skövde, Sweden
Did Thanos come through here? Goddamn.

Gotta agree with the op, I honestly thought by its jovial nature that the game would feature characters of all types on all sides. Mutants being both good/bad cause that makes sense honestly (they are still human) and would offer a lot of creative writing opportunities for characters. Still wanna give the game a shot sometime but that is quite disappointing.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,269
The way a lot of media portrays people with deformities as bad guys (or bad guys are the only ones with such conditions and rarely the good guys) is something that really should stop happening. Ugliness being a cue for being bad is definitely damaging for real people and how the world looks at them.

Rage isn’t the only media project that does this of course but I’m glad articles are highlighting this. Is something so ingrained that I wouldn’t have thought about it and it’s good to be reminded and hopefully awareness will bring this message to artists who do this.