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Randy Pitchford explains his support for EGS. (See Staff Post)

Gbraga

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,258
Nothing of this feels new.
Nothing of this tries to acknowledge that we as customers are put in a position with less choice, and are expected to accept that because of what might become of the situation.
Nothing of this acknowledges how poorly both Epic and publishers/devs have communicated these moves.
Very little of that acknowledges the good things Valve have done with Steam, a platform where Randy's products have sold in millions of copies.
And not much of it explains exactly what it is he feels that Valve needs to improve.

But it is interesting to see and read these explanations, or whatever you're supposed to call them, that only looks to a utopian future, without looking that much at what has been and what is right now.
Right, like his point about shareholders being more likely to invest the profits back into making the store grow, that is true, but I look at both stores, and I'm more than satisfied with Steam's features, there are ways they could improve, but they have a lot more than I need, while EGS is missing things that are important to me.

So I'm not really feeling how Valve being privately owned is harming me as a consumer when it comes to the quality of their launcher, much less feeling any benefits of EGS having shareholders at the moment.

"Well, one day that may change and EGS will be huge and great". Ok, then. When the time comes maybe we'll all use EGS then. What's the point of saying this? "If thing becomes great, you will want thing". Sure, I guess.
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,018
As EGS continues to gain marketshare and influence. We won't see game have limited time exclusivity but full exclusivity. I believe most game devs want Epic Games store to succeed. Not just for the cut ratio but also the power that Steam currently has over their livelihoods. Perfect scenario for them would be for steam and epic to each have the same marketshare.
 

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,806
Whole lotta words to say “they gave me a lot of money, that’s why”
The Satisfactory devs said that straight up and I can respect that, it's honest and entirely understandable. It'd be understandable from Take Two/Randy too. But they feel like spewing this bullshit instead. It's insulting. We're all grown ups, we know what capitalism is, just be honest.
 

Ramjag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,872
I take Randy’s words seriously since he has more business experience than people who like to spread lies about how the egs is a spyware and that steam is not a monopoly.
The one who doesn’t restrict where games are sold is the monopoly and not the one buying up exclusivity? Good grief.

In general, devs need to be cautious. I’m not as angry as some over this, but unless epic is going to be money hatting future releases as well, it’s going to bite some in the ass.
 
OP
OP
Thinkdifferent
Dec 30, 2018
1,564
Please give us your take. Enlighten us with your completely neutral point of view.
I thought my OP was pretty neutral to be honest haha, I do admit I dislike EGS for their anti-consumer behaviour but I felt I put enough neutral information in the OP for people to come to their own conclusions.
 
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Rodjer

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Jan 28, 2018
4,808
I take Randy’s words seriously since he has more business experience than people who like to spread lies about how the egs is a spyware and that steam is not a monopoly.
"business experience"
> usingSEGA's money to make Borderlands
> lying about Aliens Colonial Marines

Imagine taking Randy's word seriously in 2019.
 

Jinaar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
430
Edmonton AB
The whole thing is written like someone from the Reagan administration. Trickle down Game-A--Nomics. What is going to happen, if it does, is Epic and their Shareholders will start to innovate more ways to keep more money to themselves, like it always plays out.

Play the good guy first, become the bad guy after, leave the consumers with no choice during and afterwards.

Good Guy Randy selling the juice. I ain't buying.
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,795
Randy still has an axe to grind with Valve over Counter Strike: Condition Zero. It's no surprise to see him buddy up with Epic to specifically oppose Steam. Not saying his problem with Valve isn't warranted, but I think he might be a little biased.

 

Kyougar

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,956
Food for thought:
- Steam is the home to over 150 million customer who have their games on Steam
- >150 million customers who will lose their access to their games
- even if Valve's "steps to make sure the customers can still access their games" is successfull (which can be tricky because of different licenses and GAAS games) you still have 150 million customers who will never believe in the all digital future ever again.
- in essence, Steam is too big to fail
- unless Steam is bought up by another company, it would damage the digital marketplace and could have serious implications for the gaming future.
But those two clowns can't see that far ahead.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,156
Yeah, like his salient point about how a private company is bad but not bad and how another private company is private but not private and is good.
From when this was posted in the PC Gaming thread:

Valve is a private company and, to the best that we can see, a huge amount of the value that Valve has generated has been used to enrich the handful of people who own and manage the company
https://techraptor.net/content/gearbox-ceo-randy-pitchford-accused-of-embezzlement-gearbox-calls-accusations-absurd

The suit against Pitchford claims that Pitchford struck a deal with publisher Take-Two interactive to receive a “personal, secretive ‘Executive Bonus’ of $12,000,000 to be paid directly to Pitchford entity called ‘Pitchford Entertainment Media Magic, LLC.'” According to Callender, the executive bonus was an advance upon the royalties towards the Borderlands series, that would normally go towards the Gearbox staff.
His point of view on private companies being used to enrich a handfull of people who own and manage the company might be skewed by his own personal experience as the CEO of a private company.

(Also Epic is also a private company)

The whole concept is based on Epic improving their service to a much faster rate than Steam, when EGS bosses itself said they believe current state of shops (not EGS but in general so Origin for instance) is good enough and do not need improvement.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,146
You can dislike Randy all you want but to try and diminish his company’s success because he lost a USB drive is illogical.

I can also talk about how of a scammer he is after Aliens Colonial Marines.
I can also talk about save for Borderlands, the rest has been far from being successful.
 

raketenrolf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,396
Germany
The comparison between HL2 and BL3 says it all. That delusional magician would be better off if he would stay away from social media. If I would work with him within the same company, I would be embarrassed.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,299
User Warned - History of driveby posting on EGS threads to rile a reaction
/slowly opens door.

I agree with him and think this will be good for the pc gaming market.

/slams door and runs from angry mob.
 

psilocybe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
789
Nice writing. It could be convincing if not fallacious.

Steam features are better than EGS. Case closed. I wouldn't buy on Epic if I had the choice. It wouldn't make sense.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
2,008
They don’t even have a shopping cart.

A shopping cart.
A shopping cart feature only became available on the Xbox Store in Q4 2018. The Nintendo eShop doesn’t have a shopping cart. People managed to survive just fine.

The ‘outrage’ over the lack of a shopping cart at launch is unwarranted.
 

Tart Toter 9K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
337
A lot of the way some devs and pubs talk about the EGS sounds like they have utter contempt for the customer.
Contempt is the wrong word. They view them as cattle with money.

A shopping cart feature only became available on the Xbox Store in Q4 2018. The Nintendo eShop doesn’t have a shopping cart. People managed to survive just fine.

The ‘outrage’ over the lack of a shopping cart at launch is unwarranted.
The 'outrage' isn't over a shopping cart. The shopping cart is used as an example of a basic feature that is super easy to implement yet Epic needs to put it on the roadmap as a future update.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,712
It's rich of him to talk about how most of valve's money goes to a few of the executives when he himself is facing a lawsuit for embezzling millions of dollars from his company
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,156
A shopping cart feature only became available on the Xbox Store in Q4 2018. The Nintendo eShop doesn’t have a shopping cart. People managed to survive just fine.

The ‘outrage’ over the lack of a shopping cart at launch is unwarranted.
I think that says more about how lacking the console shops are to be honest. You cant even buy gifts in PSN.
 
OP
OP
Thinkdifferent
Dec 30, 2018
1,564
/slowly opens door.

I agree with him and think this will be good for the pc gaming market.

/slams door and runs from angry mob.
I am sincerely not trying to argue when I ask this, I am being genuine when I ask, why do you believe this is good for the PC gaming market?

What is EGS doing for the PC gaming market that steam and GOG and other companies aren't that is truly benefitting the consumer?
 

Dest

The Fallen
Jun 4, 2018
3,639
Work
A competitor to Steam needs to have an installed base and be sufficiently neutral in alignment so that all publishers and developers who support the store can trust a fair economy. That’s just not possible with direct stores that are controlled by publishing interests
Isn't that exactly what Epic is doing by... buying exclusivity and control on publishing games?

Valve is a private company and, to the best that we can see, a huge amount of the value that Valve has generated has been used to enrich the handful of people who own and manage the company.
So is Epic? Valve does pay employees and higher ups well, but they also aren't afraid of investing in the community that got them to that point. They may not have given everyone Half-Life 3, but you know as well as anyone Randy that games come, or at least should, come when they're ready. Valve instead focusing on bringing features to Steam that people want and making sure the experience using their service is as accessible as possible and that's great. Also a bit ironic, no? Isn't Tim Sweeney worth nearly twice as much at this point than Gabe Newell is?

There’s nothing wrong with that, BTW!
So why bring it up?

But they have also taken a significant amount of value off the table and, when they’ve reinvested, they’ve tended to put it to a lot of other activities besides the store that is generating all of the revenue. They’ve been able to do this because they haven’t had to worry about it.
Have they? As a user of Steam over the last 11 years, I've seen the value of the platform grow every year. Improvements to the store, improvements to how I find content that I might enjoy, improvements to how I play my games and they've even gone as far as developing a way to bring a large portion of the Steam library to Linux which is, to say the least, incredible. I've watched them invest in a platform they truly believe in. Two, really. They believe in Steam and they believe in VR and they've put a significant amount of money into both of those.

There has been no viable competitor to Steam.
As it stands, Epic isn't it either.

But, if I were to bet on this (and remember I’ve got a pretty good seat with a great view of this competition), Epic will inevitably surpass Valve on features and quality of service.
The EGS launched without a search function. I know that there's a roadmap in place that's publicly visible, but they have to deliver on that and more to come close to touching what Steam offers currently. I think Epic can do it, but it's a matter of if they will do it.

That they have decided to invest SIGNIFICANT amounts of the money they have made from Fortnite into the creation of a store to create a real competitive landscape is, frankly, a GIFT to customers and developers and publishers. ALL OF US WILL BENEFIT from this competition.
Regional pricing, in home streaming, gaming on Linux, direct publishing, reviews, their... own engine, a VR platform, a mod platform, an easy to use friends list, and advertising to 90 million active Steam users. Of course you can make the argument that the same if not more people currently use EGS, but those people use it for Fortnite. We have no idea how many of those people are interested in purchasing other games.

This is good for Steam customers
Forcing me to move to another platform and hope that my friends are willing to move, while also making the same game more expensive, making it so I can't have that game in my library on Steam for a year where I have allllll my other games isn't good for me.

Take Two shows some balls and steps up with our game,
Take-Two got a fat paycheck is what happened. It's funny that I'm actually rooting for Respawn and EA far more than I am the publisher of fucking Rockstar games.

And so we’re going to swallow the Epic Game Store pill with Borderlands 3. And some of you guys are going to hate it and scream bloody murder and you’ll even blame me, personally, for it. And you can bitch and moan and brigade and stalk my shit, but at the end of the day when we look back at this moment we’ll realize that this was the moment where the digital stores on PC became unmonopolized.
You and Take-Two swallowed the pill because you got paid. You can try and put it under the guise of it being for the benefit of the customer but...

And we’re all going to look back and see how change happened and how costs for developers and publishers to be on stores went down and how that value was passed on to the customers
This value isn't being passed down to us. If it were, things would be cheaper on the EGS platform and... in most cases they're not. Of course you could say that hitting a third-party site like Humble or GMG could help provide those discounts but they're still worse/no different than what you'd get from a Steam game.

You have to show consumers these things before people will believe it. You can't just come out and say shit will be different, you have to be the difference. Epic Games Store could have likely launched with just as many if not more features than Steam did if they left it in the oven longer, but they didn't. At the moment we have shallow promises and lies from Epic and Tim Sweeney himself. I have over 1,200 games on Steam, 10 years of loyality to that platform and I want to see Epic Games Store do well. I am all for competition and bettering the PC platform, but I'm seeing are publishers and big headed developers like yourself getting fat paychecks and forcing me to use a lesser platform to play games I want to play. And that sucks.
 

Yarbskoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,004
A shopping cart feature only became available on the Xbox Store in Q4 2018. The Nintendo eShop doesn’t have a shopping cart. People managed to survive just fine.

The ‘outrage’ over the lack of a shopping cart at launch is unwarranted.
Yeah, people put up with a lot of shit on consoles. That's not really a high bar.
 

Eorl

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,036
Australia
Let me know when Epic has a road plan for developing technology already existing in Valve's Steam ecosystem that greatly enhances user accessibility while also pioneering or joint venturing into new technology fields. Because right now, Epic is actually actively destroying that crucial element of PC gaming and media and devs are allowing it to happen in return for quick bucks to cover initial costs.

There isn't an excuse available for Epic's approach to a storefront and what they have delivered so far. There was already a blueprint, yet what is on offer is so much worse it's actually pushing back standards. How is this celebrated? Why is it hand waved with "oh but they'll add it eventually" or "but Valve didn't have those things initially either!" Yeah they did not, but that was pre 2018.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,146
A shopping cart feature only became available on the Xbox Store in Q4 2018. The Nintendo eShop doesn’t have a shopping cart. People managed to survive just fine.

The ‘outrage’ over the lack of a shopping cart at launch is unwarranted.

That's what I like about you. It's always comparison with the worst:
"Don't be complaining ! On other system they have an online paywall"
"Be grateful ! On Switch there's not even a party chat !"
"It could be worse ! Think of PS4 where you need to pay to change your username".

I'm not comparing with the worse stuff existing. I'm comparing as a customer as what I'm used to. And a shop is paying exclusives to convince me to use their services instead of those I use already. So yeah, I'll be comparing it to what I'm using in 2019.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,613
PC gaming doesn't need saving. I don't know where they got this shit from.
It's encouraging the listener to automatically equate "PC gaming" to "Bleeding-edge AAA gaming that's dependent on profit margins"; just quietly normalising that association - and I'm sure a number of people making the statement don't get that they're treating that association as completely normal and healthy.

Yall really tripping about EGS, it's not a big deal, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
I don't actually mind EGS all that much; I'm critical, but I'm genuinely intrigued to see how the experiment pans out. Nothing on it is grabbing me right now, but I'd never say never for the future.

I am, however, very much disinclined to appreciate various forms of people who have direct vested interest in the success of the EGS enthusiastically evangelising to me that it'll be just great for everyone as long as we just suck it up and accept the bits of it that aren't pro-consumer right now.

Edit:

As someone who doesn't like EGS but still wouldn't think twice before buying a game I'm really looking forward to if it's EGS exclusive, it still feels so weird to have this kind of defense for it.

I didn't need walls of text to convince me to buy on Origin, Uplay, Steam, Nuuvem, GMG or other key sellers. They just offered me prices and services, and I said "sure, why not". It's so off-putting to have this much rationalization around it.

Maybe it could have something to do with the fact that you need a lot more words to convince someone that something that is worse is actually better. Uplay's much better preloading means I'll always prefer to get a Ubisoft game on Uplay if I'm really looking forward to it and want to play it as soon as possible. No need for anyone to tell me just how much better Uplay is for the industry.
Yeah, this is a great encapsulation of where I stand.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,652
A shopping cart feature only became available on the Xbox Store in Q4 2018. The Nintendo eShop doesn’t have a shopping cart. People managed to survive just fine.

The ‘outrage’ over the lack of a shopping cart at launch is unwarranted.
Just using the Eshop of all things to justify the lack of features from any platform is laughable really.

Fact is, standards are different in the PC ecosystem, since every platform is free you need to set yourself apart through features instead of price of entry and library available. Epic games is failling hard on that front.

If they bring nothing to the table, be it new funded games or through features they may as well not exist to me.
 

Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,316
I can also talk about how of a scammer he is after Aliens Colonial Marines.
I can also talk about save for Borderlands, the rest has been far from being successful.
Yeah, what happened with Sega and Alien Colonial Marines was scummy as hell, but again that doesn’t disprove the point of him being a good businessman. He used the money to invest in Borderlands which turned out to be the better business move.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
938
Australia
/slowly opens door.

I agree with him and think this will be good for the pc gaming market.

/slams door and runs from angry mob.
We're not going to lynch you lol. At least I'm not, I'm genuinely curious why you think it will help the PC gaming market! I'm certainly willing to have my mind changed but from my point of view I can only see this hurting it, especially when it comes to things like 3rd party storefronts whom a lot of the world rely on to afford their gaming hobby. So far the only thing EGS has done is stifle competition, whilst this may change in the long term I'm not a huge fan of their brand of burning the short term down for possible long term gains.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,951
Just put your game on the store and be done with it. There is no need to shill for them with trite arguments too. So weird.
 

NeuralProxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,482
Italy
Hey since they keep repeating this I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it's actually good for consumers in the long term so I'll give them my money... when we get there. Since, currently, I find it pretty bad for me, I'll do my job as a consumer and put my money elsewhere.

Also, I never liked when corporate people get so high and mighty and arrogant and start believing they can do what they want, say what they please and trust the consumers to go full sheep mode and swallow all their shit with pride and honor. It worked for Apple, it worked for Google, it worked for a bunch of others tech companies, but it's 2019 and we know that's all bullcrap.

I'll also save this just to look back at it in 5 to 10 years to see how wrong someone can be.
 
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Kyougar

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,956
I take Randy’s words seriously since he has more business experience than people who like to spread lies about how the egs is a spyware and that steam is not a monopoly.
The past is littered with the bodies of companies from people with "serious business experience"

And the second part... it seems like a serious sllegation, do you have any proof that it was fabricated or just lies? we had a big thread about it, surely you can show us proof of it being lies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,552
Randy seems to be incredibly excited about there being a second launcher on PC in addition to Steam. He is trying to paint this as a positive thing for the customer. But as a customer, I ask: why?

Today I can buy Steam games either though Steam store or through key sellers. Valve makes no money off keys so they would obviously love if I chose Steam. But key sellers are often much cheaper as they offer discounts on games, allowing me to get games cheaper even during pre-order or launch period. So I never pay full price.

BL3 seems to have become available on a wider scale than previous Epic exclusives, I see it on GMG and Humble Store right now. So this issue has been addressed or is in progress of getting addressed. But now we're back to where we are with Steam: I can buy Epic launcher games from Epic store or cheaper from key sites. The price is the same or higher.

What is the benefit for the customer here? How do I benefit from splitting my games between two launchers now? Randy is painting some sweet rosy future with Steam no longer being the one place to go, but I'm not seeing it.
 

Nightbird

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,681
Germany
Sorry this might seem weird, but what exactly is the issue with the Epic Game Store?

As far as I am concerned it's just another Launcher, so it's not really a problem.
Is it about the lack of features?

Geniuly asking, I don't get the exact problem.
 

Tart Toter 9K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
337
Yeah, what happened with Sega and Alien Colonial Marines was scummy as hell, but again that doesn’t disprove the point of him being a good businessman. He used the money to invest in Borderlands which turned out to be the better business move.
He also invested in that Paladins rip-off ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,316
"scummy" "good businessman"
wat
It was a scummy and underhanded move to make from a moral standpoint, but the move allowed his company to make a shit ton of money by doing so. Do you need me to explain how Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are good businessmen despite doing similarly scummy moves?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,146
It was a scummy and underhanded move to make from a moral standpoint, but the move allowed his company to make a shit ton of money by doing so. Do you need me to explain how Bill Gates and Steve Jones are good businessmen despite doing similarly scummy moves?

Nah, I got you don't worry. And we're supposed to think this good businessman knows his shit when he's telling us "it's good for you". Despite his scammer history.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,086
The way he's trying to describe Valve and Epic as fundamentally different where they're not feels... weird. Reaching at best, disingenuous at worse.

There are fundamental differences between a private business and a publicly traded company. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

That said what he suggest those differences will mean in the long run are either myopic or disingenuous.
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,458
Sorry this might seem weird, but what exactly is the issue with the Epic Game Store?

As far as I am concerned it's just another Launcher, so it's not really a problem.
Is it about the lack of features?

Geniuly asking, I don't get the exact problem.
For me, its simple; I lived through the shit Era of PC gaming during the 7th gen, when DRM, GFWL and delayed/no release was the order of the day for the PC market. The EGS reminded me of being forced to use GFWL and I'll never forget how THAT ended, badly with many, many broken games.

I have no problem with another storefront and even launcher. I have uplay, origin, GOG galaxy and Steam as launchers installed right now. Its the third party exclusivity and PR trying to convince me its raining while we all know its something else....