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signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,192
https://pudding.cool/projects/vocabulary/index.html

https://twitter.com/matthew_daniels/status/1085544308122546176


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Some of the newer artists wield a smaller vocabulary comparatively, but this is not because hip hop has "dumbed down." The genre has evolved; it has moved away from complex lyricism toward elements traditionally associated with pop music: repetitive song structure and singing (Joe Carmanica recently wrote about this trend for the New York Times, arguing that it was led by Drake, who popularized the rapping-and-singing formula over the past decade).

A better benchmark for Lil Uzi Vert's word count (2,556) might be those of pop artists, such as Beyonce (2,433 words), or even one his major influences: Marilyn Manson (2,466 words).

There are also genre-bending artists. If Childish Gambino's Awaken, My Love! is less hip hop in the traditional '90s boom-bap sense, is it fair to compare it to vocabulary-dense Wu-Tang albums? Genre matters in vocabulary calculations—check out the chart below, which takes 500 random samples of 35,000 words from rock, country, and hip hop.


Every rapper isn't present but it's pretty broad in who is included. And lol Uzi.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
my highlight on one of these threads back on GAF was when it was just about drinking and a ska punk band bomb the music industry was top of the charts and the rest was all rappers
 

F2BBm3ga

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,083
Damn, Wu tang is strong with this one, I knew Gza, Ghost and Raekwon would be up there. Interested to Rza too. Makes sense the vaudeville villian himself MF doom is up there since hes like old school ghost and rae. Same with jedi mind tricks. and Lupe should be high but I can't find him. surprising.
 
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signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,192
Damn, Wu tang is strong with this one, I knew Gza, Ghost and Raekwon would be up there. Interested to Rza too. Makes sense the vaudeville villian himself MF doom is up there since hes like old school ghost and rae. Same with jedi mind tricks. and Lupe should be high but I can't find him. surprising.
Yeah it's not an exhaustive list at all. Some just haven't be included and others (more major omissions) don't have enough material.
 

F2BBm3ga

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,083
Yeah it's not an exhaustive list at all. Some just haven't be included and others (more major omissions) don't have enough material.

apparently he's in there, but when i click on his name, it doesnt do anything, but when i select on anyones name, it doesn't do nothing. (algorithm error? lol). cant find him. but its surprising he wouldnt be pretty high cause he tends to use alot of words most rappers dont use.
 

mozbar

Member
Feb 20, 2018
856
Does Matt Daniels include guest verses for an artist? Or does he attribute them to the exact artist?
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
Damn, Wu tang is strong with this one, I knew Gza, Ghost and Raekwon would be up there. Interested to Rza too. Makes sense the vaudeville villian himself MF doom is up there since hes like old school ghost and rae. Same with jedi mind tricks. and Lupe should be high but I can't find him. surprising.

ive never heard the bolded before, but it totally made me interested in checking him out.
thank you!
 
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signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,192
apparently he's in there, but when i click on his name, it doesnt do anything, but when i select on anyones name, it doesn't do nothing. (algorithm error? lol). cant find him. but its surprising he wouldnt be pretty high cause he tends to use alot of words most rappers dont use.
Oh I see, I get the same error. Click some name in the list then use the up or down arrows to navigate (if you're on desktop) then it'll start highlighting people.
 

F2BBm3ga

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,083
Found lupe, he's a little higher than eminem.

Surprising to see the only "newer/young" rapper in the higher area is Joey Badass. figured kendrick and j cole would be up there too, but they aren't.
 

Deleted member 23850

Oct 28, 2017
8,689
Aesop stays winning. Nice to see Busdriver on the list.
 
Jan 15, 2019
4,393
I love this list, I love that it got updated, and I love that Busdriver and Aesop Rock are like 1,000 words ahead of everyone else. I also love how it shows that vocab density is not the end all be all of your skills as a lyricist. Kendrick is average if not slightly below average, for instance, but is a brilliant rapper in my opinion.
 

DrFunk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,880
Not at all surprised at MF Doom, Busdriver, and Aesop Rock being on the "living thesaurus" end
 
Jan 15, 2019
4,393
ive never heard the bolded before, but it totally made me interested in checking him out.
thank you!
I can't tell from your post if you picked up on this or not, but the "vaudeville villain" and MF Doom are the same person. That said, if you aren't familiar with MF Doom, yeah, check him out. I'd personally start with Mm... Food.
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,171
You compile a list of most extensive vocals in hip hop and forget Notorious B.I.G. ?!?! Nah son
 

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,050
but this is not because hip hop has "dumbed down." The genre has evolved; it has moved away from complex lyricism toward elements traditionally associated with pop music

How is dropping complexity to fit in more with traditional pop music not "dumbed down"
 

F2BBm3ga

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,083
First 35000? That seems like a weird way to count it

agreed, I think thats wierd

Action Bronson's up there too. Bronsolini making his presence known.

well, bronson is like little ghost face, and based on where Ghost face is at, that makes complete sense.

How is dropping complexity to fit in more with traditional pop music not "dumbed down"

lmfao, right? that's literally what dumbing down is. he just described dumbing down, then said it wasnt dumbing down.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
I can't tell from your post if you picked up on this or not, but the "vaudeville villain" and MF Doom are the same person. That said, if you aren't familiar with MF Doom, yeah, check him out. I'd personally start with Mm... Food.
no i assumed that was who the poster was referring to! love the phrase, and what i think it entails. totally checking them out.
 
Jan 15, 2019
4,393
How is dropping complexity to fit in more with traditional pop music not "dumbed down"
You can be complex without using tons of words. Sometimes it's really impressive to express a complex and impactful idea in very few words. I would argue that Billie Holiday's one line of "Southern trees bear strange fruit" was/is more impactful than tons and tons of lyrical miracle hip-hop songs.
 
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signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,192

35,000 words covers 3 to 5 studio albums and EPs. I included mixtapes if the artist was short of the 35,000 words. Quite a few rappers don't have enough official material to be included (for example, Biggie and Chance the Rapper).

I mean, Shakespeare was making up a bunch of words as he went along so maybe DMX needs to be reevaluated.
Actually made up words do count for this! Probably not diverse barks though.
 
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signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,192
Definitely, but lyrically it feels like subject matters have shrunk. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I love big dumb chant worthy anthems as much as the next person, but that sentence didn't make much sense to me.
Author probably referring to the genre as a whole, which is why he brings up song structure in the same sentence. You could argue less complex lyrical content dumbs down the entire genre but I guess he's referring to the complexity of individual components.
 

Kotto

CEO of Traphouse Networks
Member
Nov 3, 2017
4,466
ASAP Rocky is above J Cole and Kendrick on here. I am pretty surprised at that.
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,171
He's one of the ones that were left out because of not enough material, not just left out on purpose by the author.
Well that seems like a pointlessly arbitrary cut off. Why not just place him as is and see how he stacks up. Even with the disadvantage I'd bet he's pretty high up there.