Ray Tracing SHOULDN'T be Used for every game next gen

[T002 Tyrant]

There's just some games that rely on lighting that's been baked in for artistic reasons or a less realistic lighting may be used for non-realistic art styles or for special effects.

One recent example I think would be Resident Evil 2 Remake there's a scene that uses the light from a lamp to cast a shadow to make the player think there's a zombie around the corner.

Ray-traced I just don't think you'd be able to achieve those effects without messing with the light source to unrealistic proportions. Sure the rest of the game could benefit (although for some reason there are random surfaces that are reflective when they shouldn't be), however, this isn't really a conversation about if RE2 Remake should get raytracing support but rather if raytracing may become overused and more artistic uses for lighting may become lost in the nearish future.

What are your thoughts on ray tracing and its use? Do you think there's still room in the future for older lighting techniques?

PS: This isn't anti- ray tracing topic, just an open discussion about realistic technology/simulation vs a more controlled output?

 

[z0m3le]

It can't be. Ray Tracing is so ridiculously computationally difficult, that we won't see consoles powerful enough to enable it until the PS5 Pro (if it will exist) comes out. Mainly because AMD has no real answer for the difficulty of the task. We will have to wait and see if RTX second generation can even give acceptable performance for computers, this is with GPUs that will cost more than the entire PS5 console.

We will see Ray Tracing next gen, but it will be limited, and it will not be used in every title. This is ok, Ray Tracing is the biggest step to photo realism, and in order to get there, we are going to have to struggle a bit.

 

[ara]

It won't be.

 

[Arebours]

we have retro style pixel art games in 2019. I wouldn't worry about it. Also just looking at the best selling and most popular games, it's not like graphical fidelity dominates. It all comes down to art direction/style and for that purpose ray tracing is just another tool in the box.

It can't be.

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it's not like they patented ray tracing.

 

[Hanbei]

Just because the feature is there doesn't mean every dev will be using it. Depends on the game.

 

[sredgrin]

Just....make it a toggle

 

[Chivalry]

Movies use 100% realistic light sources to achieve an infinite variety of effects. I'm sure devs can come up with something.

 

[Gundam]

Like any technology it should be used where it makes sense

 

[leng jai]

Somehow I doubt this will be something we'll have to worry about.

 

[Paz]

Instead of thinking about scenarios where something cool was achieved without Ray tracing you should try to think of the new possibilities it will bring, especially in the genre of something like survival horror that relies heavily on lighting.

Cos the entire non raytraced history of game rendering tricks isn't going anywhere.

Also, raytracing is a tool, you could totally use it for certain parts of your render and still do whatever arbitrary effects you want on top. Heck we might even see it mostly used for audio if rendering loads become too intense.

 

[AllEchse]

Just....make it a toggle

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I think devs will know how to implement it. Most effects in games aren't toggle if you aren't playing the PC version and even then Players mostly only disable subjective stuff like Motion Blur.

 

[Linus815]

I theorized that it may be part of the reason why RDR 2 PC version doesn't have ray tracing, the game utilizes its lighting / volumetric effects constantly to paint a certain mood, tuned in by the devs. Ray tracing would likely look incredibly realistic, but also diminish the art.

However, games built for RT from the ground up should not have this issue since natural light sources can also be played around with, like in movies. In addition, I highly doubt ray tracing will be that much of a presence in the next gen consoles for this to be a real concern.

 

[DryCreek]

.

 

[Edgar]

All I want is a Ray Traced Knack. Knack tracing

 

[thuway]

Lots of pessimism in here. I would much rather a studio decide what's best for itself rather than some random person on Era spouting alarmism about what is or isn't computationally effective.

On a more serious note- Ray Tracing in next generation consoles will finally allow the entire industry to tackle and discover methods/models that can give best case results. Right now, it's relegated to a handful of developers who are given small hats made of money to stamp an RTX label.

Once we have the brunt of the game's industry focusing on solutions- you'll start discovering innovations like we did when FXAA / MLAA etc. were discovered.

 

[Timppis]

Why do you think for a second that it will be?

 

[Elios83]

And it won't. Each eveloper will decide what is best for their game given the scope, time and budget as it has always been.

 

[Vulcano's Assistant]

You can do every sort of fake lighting trick with ray tracing. Ray tracing isn't "natural lighting".

 

[Hesemonni]

OP has a huge amount of trust in game developers / artists it seems.

 

[nsilvias]

even pc games can barely utilize it. you'll barely see any games use raytracing despite how hyped up it is.

 

[thuway]

Instead of thinking about scenarios where something cool was achieved without Ray tracing you should try to think of the new possibilities it will bring, especially in the genre of something like survival horror that relies heavily on lighting.

Cos the entire non raytraced history of game rendering tricks isn't going anywhere.

Also, raytracing is a tool, you could totally use it for certain pets of your render and still do whatever arbitrary effects you want on top. Heck we might even see it mostly used for audio if rendering loads become too intense.

Click to shrink...

GOAT post right here.

 

[KilgoreTrout696]

What a silly worry. Especially with how amazing Control looked with rtx enabled. Talk about a game that used lighting to achieve an incredibly stylish look. Ray tracing in that game just made it look next level.

 

[z0m3le]

it's not like they patented ray tracing.

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Select lighting effects for real time gaming is what AMD says they will have in the RDNA architecture that PS5 is getting. If you look at the link from my first post, you'll see that what they do is turn general ALUs into 'RT Cores' via software, and use memory tricks and other hardware enabled solutions to speed up the software emulation being used.

From this point, we don't know if AMD will be able to achieve parity to the current RTX GPUs, and I'm not holding my breath on something like the RTX 2080 or better. AMD has a lot to prove about their GPU hardware, the performance of 7nm Navi is a nice move to compete with 12nm RTX GPUs that are sporting less power draw, while having much larger cores for hardware ray tracing, but it ultimately is leaning on the 7nm process node to close the gap, and has really only achieved mid high performance results.

Looking again at the picture above, next gen consoles look like they will achieve ray tracing via the cloud, much like the XB1 was able to close the gap in performance with the PS4, you know PR speak.

Ray Tracing is hard, it costs a lot of transistors and die space to make happen in decent performance, and while I assume 'Navi2' will do it better than GTX 1080 TI, I do think it will fall short of RTX 2080's ray tracing performance, which might not interest a lot of developers to use it, especially universally.

 

[boris_feinbrand]

You guys realize that Ray tracing doesn't make artists obsolete? Like what kind of stupid idea is that to begin with? If anything it'll make good lightning artists work easier, but it's not a simple toggle and that's that.
Besides the fact that even next gen consoles won't be able to use unbiased rendering and Ray tracing will be used to varying degrees or not at all.
This is such a non issue, and a concern that only highlights the ignorance of what ray tracing actually does and what it doesn't.

 

[laxu]

One recent example I think would be Resident Evil 2 Remake there's a scene that uses the light from a lamp to cast a shadow to make the player think there's a zombie around the corner.

Ray-traced I just don't think you'd be able to achieve those effects without messing with the light source to unrealistic proportions. Sure the rest of the game could benefit (although for some reason there are random surfaces that are reflective when they shouldn't be), however, this isn't really a conversation about if RE2 Remake should get raytracing support but rather if raytracing may become overused and more artistic uses for lighting may become lost in the nearish future.

What are your thoughts on ray tracing and its use? Do you think there's still room in the future for older lighting techniques?

Click to shrink...

Your example would be a perfectly fine use of raytracing, but if using traditional techniques makes it easier to achieve then that works just fine too. Nothing prevents developers from using both techniques on a case by case basis. Raytracing should be used where it will make the biggest visual difference. You are not going to care if some random pipe is reflecting the environment perfectly when you are not able to deduce that detail and will probably ignore it as you zoom by. You will notice when a big window casts your reflection though.

To me the "killer" applications of RT are mostly dealing with lighting. Raytraced lighting's ambient occlusion just grounds every object to the world so much better so you avoid that "things floating on top of other things" look or it allows for more realistic lighting. This Metro Exodus video from DF is worth a look:

 

[Fatoy]

One recent example I think would be Resident Evil 2 Remake there's a scene that uses the light from a lamp to cast a shadow to make the player think there's a zombie around the corner.

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What about ray-traced lighting would make this same fake-out impossible to achieve?

 

[eso76]

It's so expensive it certainly won't, and surely not extensively?
I'm curious about AMD's hybrid implementation, though. Might make it actually useable on consoles.

 

[Lashley]

It won't be.

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.

 

[T002 Tyrant]

What about ray-traced lighting would make this same fake-out impossible to achieve?

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I feel you'd need to use a lot stronger light source than what is realistic for the lightbulb to cast that kind of a shadow, I believe that kind of lightbulb (40watt?) would probably cast a much softer shadow and probably not that large either, meaning adjustment of the position of the light. I believe if the same effect were to be done with realistic light the intensity of the lightbulb would be blindingly bright like a stage light and drown out the rest of the room.

I've not tried to replicate the source material though with a real lamp and dummy just in my head it doesn't make sense.

 

[Mars People]

You just know its going to be used instead of getting at least 60fps.
So disapointing.

 

[Deleted member 51248]

for scenarios you talked about its still possible to art direct the lighting in a ray traced situation, plenty of animated movies do it all the time, a good example is light rigs where a character is surrounded by a bunch of lights that only effect that character and nothing else (adding rim lighting, defining important facial features or ensuring there's a white highlight in the eye).
In the case of that lamp you bring up the light attached to the lamp itself can be edited, or there would be another light sitting near it specifically to cast that particular effect.

 

[Vulcano's Assistant]

I feel you'd need to use a lot stronger light source than what is realistic for the lightbulb to cast that kind of a shadow, I believe that kind of lightbulb (40watt?) would probably cast a much softer shadow and probably not that large either, meaning adjustment of the position of the light. I believe if the same effect were to be done with realistic light the intensity of the lightbulb would be blindingly bright like a stage light and drown out the rest of the room.

I've not tried to replicate the source material though with a real lamp and dummy just in my head it doesn't make sense.

Click to shrink...

Ray traced lights don't need to follow real life. In fact, a lighting artist almost surely will make the lamp be for show only and still light the room with invisible lights placed on the scene.
You can still have the light be emitted following a texture, masking out wherever you want the shadow, and you can adjust how sharp you want it.

Or if you want to control how sharp is a shadow without changing the light you can always put an invisible object closer to the wall.

 

[Deleted member 2809]

Don't worry they're gonna throw it around like a meaningless buzzword until they find a new meaningless buzzword

 

[III-V]

I expect to see many games with ray tracing next gen, including a few at launch. It won't be used everywhere, but we will see different implementations and uses.

 

[FancyPants]

Weird topic. Ray tracing is a rendering technique. It can be implemented in various ways, and even used for sound. There is no reason to think games couldn't have the scenes you're talking about. Baked lighting can still be a thing. I mean, movies is a thing - there are tons of atmospheric movies...

 

[EarthPainting]

It remains to be seen what the practical Raytraying implementations will be like next generation consoles. I assume that the amount of resources needed will not be worth the results for most titles.

 

[Csr]

Using ray tracing for some things does not mean they can't use other techniques to accomplish what you describe in your example.

 

[Yarbskoo]

You can definitely have artistically "incorrect" lighting and still use raytracing.

Films do it all the time, and all of their light is raytraced.

 

[Marble]

Your example would be a perfectly fine use of raytracing, but if using traditional techniques makes it easier to achieve then that works just fine too. Nothing prevents developers from using both techniques on a case by case basis. Raytracing should be used where it will make the biggest visual difference. You are not going to care if some random pipe is reflecting the environment perfectly when you are not able to deduce that detail and will probably ignore it as you zoom by. You will notice when a big window casts your reflection though.

To me the "killer" applications of RT are mostly dealing with lighting. Raytraced lighting's ambient occlusion just grounds every object to the world so much better so you avoid that "things floating on top of other things" look or it allows for more realistic lighting. This Metro Exodus video from DF is worth a look:

Click to shrink...

Probably a dumb question: looking at the Metro example with the green and blue light bulbs. I see the difference, but why doesn't the dev just color the surrounding area of the bulbs al little green/blue? Doesn't that generats practically the same effect without all the computation power needed?

 

[BeI]

I think it will be used fairly often, but the amount of it will vary greatly depending on the game. Raytraced everything would be really expensive, whereas RT reflections would be easier. I think similar to dynamic resolution and similar techniques, raytracing methods will find a way to make it into console versions of games.

 

[laxu]

Probably a dumb question: looking at the Metro example with the green and blue light bulbs. I see the difference, but why doesn't the dev just color the surrounding area of the bulbs al little green/blue? Doesn't that generats practically the same effect without all the computation power needed?

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While that would be possible and is most likely done in some games, the real difference is described in the video where they explain that these lights are essentially fake. Most of them will emit no light but will just not receive any lighting from the real lights in the scene and there might be one invisible area light to fake light emitting from those bulb models. What this raytracing feature allows is that these light sources actually light the scene so even if the light is just a texture in the scene, it can realistically light its surroundings. Doing that with typical game lights would most likely tank the performance so this is a thing where raytracing actually makes for better performance.

 

[Ghos]

I wonder how films get away with it 🤔

 

[laxu]

I think it will be used fairly often, but the amount of it will vary greatly depending on the game. Raytraced everything would be really expensive, whereas RT reflections would be easier. I think similar to dynamic resolution and similar techniques, raytracing methods will find a way to make it into console versions of games.

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My expectation is to see RT effects more in cutscenes as that's usually where you have time to admire the view. I just hope we don't end up with the "reflective puddles everywhere" thing like we have had with some effects in the past.

 

[ILikeFeet]

You're coming at this way way wrong.

 

[Deleted member 4970]

???

Ray Tracing would make your example easier to achieve. With RT, it'd really be as simple as plucking a light down and doing what you need to your environment to cast that shadow.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Probably a dumb question: looking at the Metro example with the green and blue light bulbs. I see the difference, but why doesn't the dev just color the surrounding area of the bulbs al little green/blue? Doesn't that generats practically the same effect without all the computation power needed?

Click to shrink...

Sure, you can fake just about any static lighting effect by drawing it in manually, but it takes a lot more time and manpower, and it doesn't work with dynamic elements.

 

[IamFlying]

Raytracing will be just a marketing word for PS5/XOne2 not a feature often used. The next-gen consoles will be not powerful enough to use Raytracing in a meaningful way.

 

[Sei]

Don't think that raytracing on the new consoles is going to look like it does on PC demos right now. The tech/price point is not there yet, unless the consoles end up selling for $800+. I actually don't even expect the new console benchmarks to look like what Metro (global illumination) or Control ( full raytraced reflections/shadows) are doing on PC right now.

I expect most games will use it in a lot more subtle ways, but definitely it will be an improvement over current gen console graphics.

 

[ILikeFeet]

this reminds me of people thinking physically based rendering would ruin cartoony/anime games

 

[Ghostwalker]

There's just some games that rely on lighting that's been baked in for artistic reasons or a less realistic lighting may be used for non-realistic art styles or for special effects.

One recent example I think would be Resident Evil 2 Remake there's a scene that uses the light from a lamp to cast a shadow to make the player think there's a zombie around the corner.

Ray-traced I just don't think you'd be able to achieve those effects without messing with the light source to unrealistic proportions. Sure the rest of the game could benefit (although for some reason there are random surfaces that are reflective when they shouldn't be), however, this isn't really a conversation about if RE2 Remake should get raytracing support but rather if raytracing may become overused and more artistic uses for lighting may become lost in the nearish future.

What are your thoughts on ray tracing and its use? Do you think there's still room in the future for older lighting techniques?

PS: This isn't anti- ray tracing topic, just an open discussion about realistic technology/simulation vs a more controlled output?

Click to shrink...

I don't get the point you are trying to make.

What you are describing is basic shadow manipulation any kid with a touch and a toy figure can recreate it.

I cannot see for the life of me how Ray-Tracing will struggle to create that kind of lightning effect. In fact it would be able to do it better as you can create it using multiple or moving light sources so it will change as you move room the room