It has been discussed quite thoroughly already:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...layer-agency-during-its-story-missions.80582/
https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...layer-agency-during-its-story-missions.80582/
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RDR2 lacks mission freedom.
- Thread starter Deleted member 5148
- Start date
Basic controls would have been an improvement. Super Mario Bros. has basic controls and the game plays like a dream. RDR2 has bad controls. Sluggish, unresponsive, insane input delay at times, forced walking in camp (he walks insufferably slow, and you spend a lot of time in camp, etc.) It's just not a fun game to play.
That said, if you loved the first one, I still suggest checking it out, but not at $60.
I loved that. It made the world feel organic and that you really were an outlaw.
Kind of a known thing at this point, it's been the main criticism with the game in many game of the year discussions.
Yep but it's kinda a R* thing. You don't really have much freedom in missions. The free form comes outside of the main missions.
You shouldn't because the problem with Red Dead is not linearity. It is agency. They are not one and the same.
I do not fail Uncharted 4 missions for flanking.
Uncharted isn't an open world game nor does it punish you by killing you or making you fail for approaching things in the way you want to. Uncharted 4 had different paths through levels that all intertwined.
This thread isn't about linear game versus open world game. It's about restrictive mission design and Uncharted 4 absolutely gives me more options.
The first time this really hit me was quite early in the game.
I was going to arrest a "healer" selling poison and I snuck up on him ready to pounce. However the game had other ideas and instead of fighting I had to talk and "be fooled" and let him run away to generate a chase. This pissed me off, but then during the chase I could see the game "cheating" to make sure I didn't catch him before the game wanted. This has also been the case in other missions and it might actually be my biggest issue with the game. I _hate_ when the game cheats to make it's own goals, i.e. a horse you are chasing is running just fast enough so that you can't catch them and matches pace so if you slow down the horse in front slows down etc. Grrr...
I started the game with GPS directions turned off, I wanted it to feel immersive. There was a mission near the beginning where you have to drive a horse carriage to Strawberry... I just used the marker on the compass to guide me. I went straight instead of turning left, and it resulted in failed mission, sending me back like 2 minutes of riding, to the beginning.
Then I did it a second time. I zoned out because I had already heard the dialog before, and I missed the turn, (by like 20 feet) and had to restart the mission again.
I heard that boring ass dialog for the 3rd time, and turned on the GPS directions for turn by turn assistance, out of fear I might miss another turn after the one I missed before, and would have to restart the mission yet again, and then never turned it back off.
Future missions of course gave more freedom, but that was a big turn-off that the game needed a few "good" hours before it got back in my good graces. And for every future mission i had a twinge of paranoia if I didn't turn where the compass said I should. (of course, most future missions where not as restrictive)
Then I did it a second time. I zoned out because I had already heard the dialog before, and I missed the turn, (by like 20 feet) and had to restart the mission again.
I heard that boring ass dialog for the 3rd time, and turned on the GPS directions for turn by turn assistance, out of fear I might miss another turn after the one I missed before, and would have to restart the mission yet again, and then never turned it back off.
Future missions of course gave more freedom, but that was a big turn-off that the game needed a few "good" hours before it got back in my good graces. And for every future mission i had a twinge of paranoia if I didn't turn where the compass said I should. (of course, most future missions where not as restrictive)
I'd disagree with almost everything here. It's worth 60$ for the story alone. Factor in the fact that the world is literally the most detail rich environment ever made in a sandbox and it's worth more than 60$
The controls are fine, sluggish yes, but you get used to the weighted controls quickly cause they feel natural for the settings. Walking in the camp does blow but everything is dilberate. It's paced like a western. It encourages character building, world building, all the things that people complain is missing in other games is right here, except you have to walk for oh maybe 5-10 minutes every 2-3 hours of gameplay for the first 2-5 chapters.
If you LOVED RDR then you will absolutely love RDR2.
Story is cliched crap I saw coming a mile away. I didn't care about any of the characters and the Epilogue was pointless.
Uncharted titles are linear, but their combat encounters generally offer a tonne of approach diversity thanks to the sheer scope, number of branching paths, amount of verticality, climbing, shimmying, jumping and other mobility options etc. If you want to flank for example, outside of a very select few set pieces, there are usually an abundance of options to facilitate that.
The main missions are boring as fuck, I've gave up on the game. Games like this sell so much just because of hype.
The game is very deliberate in what it wants you to experience while still maintaining a veil of freedom and player choice. It's less so structured like a normal open world game and more like a Disneyworld where there's a sense of wonder as you encounter all these seemingly "realistic" events in the world and engage with this very well made story, but if you try to stretch what these events can do you will ultimately hit a brick wall.
i just hate games that literally tell you what to do next every step of the way. my fault for buying this game and expecting anything less i guess.
Every Rockstar game is this way, the problem is expecting anything different than the formula they've been executing for 20 years.
Clearly it works for a lot of people, I wouldn't mind a change myself, but for me it didn't change my enjoyment of RDR2 in any way because I was a huge fan of RDR1 and the game delivered on what I wanted from a sequel, I didn't have unrealistic expectations about the mission design.
Clearly it works for a lot of people, I wouldn't mind a change myself, but for me it didn't change my enjoyment of RDR2 in any way because I was a huge fan of RDR1 and the game delivered on what I wanted from a sequel, I didn't have unrealistic expectations about the mission design.
I just recently got back to it and slogged through to the end. Wow what an utter snooze fest every mission is. The gameplay is pretty diabolical. Upon completing the game I immediately booted BOTW back up and wept. God games like red dead really show how good botw is.
I don't even mind the missions being linear, but for gods sake give me a satisfying aiming mechanic. Did rockstar forget they made max payne 3? Which had possibly the best tps mechanics going. Depressing stuff but I should stop hoping for something different.
Because more often than not you're in a small-ish area that doesn't even give you the opportunity to flank (yes, I know UC4 improved in this regard from 1-3 though).
"Linear-wide" is what the director called it and it became part of the core combat design tenet from TLoU forwards. U4 and TLL really highlighted the differences compared to previous Uncharted games. I have found videos on YT that have shown ways around dealing with hostiles that did not even enter my head.
But that is an informed perspective that one would have if they had at least played the game instead of giving asinine bottom of the barrel butt hurt hottakes like "pot calling kettle black" or some such BS.
I have yet to play RDR2 but it strikes me as weird given I have not come across this complaint (or at least this significantly) when it comes to their GTA games.
Like I said, I was robbing the stagecoach. I wasn't delivering it anywhere. I don't know what I did or didn't do that made it crash, but the problem was the game wanted me to follow it and not actually do anything until a scripted moment happened somewhere down the road.
The game puts its own story line ahead of the game play. Half the missions in the game could have just been cutscenes because that's about how much control you actually have in the way things turn out.
Played both so at least from the get go I have better experience with both games than you. No need to be "butt hurt" about it.
Sure, TLoU and U4 are not the same genre of game as RDR2. But those games suffer from restrictive game design choices in order to serve a cinematic exerpeience. Not the same type of restrictions as seen in RDR2, but restrictions nonetheless. Neither dev has the right to speak of player choice and freedom of playstyle.
I don't see how ND even saw it appropriate to comment here.
Naughty Dog calling out RDR2 for restrictive design is hilarious. Uncharted 4 is full of moments that are basically on rails, including
the final boss being a qte
I think one of the funniest strawmen I've seen from hardcore RDR2 defenders is the idea that if you have issues with this game's controls, mission design, etc., you're an impatient gamer who is unable to appreciate the art of the slow burn.
I don't agree, RDR2 doesn't have bad controls. It has a weight to it but I definitely don't think it makes it bad, I am having plenty of fun with it.
The only real issue I have with them is when you're trying to perform some context sensitive actions (like loot a body or sleep). It can be quite difficult to get Arthur positioned correctly in these situations sometimes. Otherwise, I've adapted to the controls just fine.
I'd agree with that. I haven't encountered many mission failures and I'm on my second play through. I feel like there were a few missions like the bank robberies and central to the story missions where some of these restrictions are more noticeable. Part of it may have to be that it is heavily driven by the narrative. For example, they don't want you sniping from faraway when the following cut scene doesn't work with that.
Rockstar can improve on this a little more for sure though.
There are so many examples. Braithwaite Manor is incredibly savage. and that music completely hits at the exact right spot in all of these moments. In these moments I don't mind the locked-in structure of the game at all because of how they've crafted each scene.
However, not all the scenes deserve such rigidity. I remember going back to my horse to get a repeater and change my loadout, but the horse was 2 steps outside the mission zone. I had to finish the shootout by scavenging bullets from the dead with the cattleman's revolver.
Yep, there is nothing wrong with forcing a player to approach a fixed way sometimes, but that doesn't the freedoms should be restricted.
There is plenty of room for both, if they put their minds to it they could design missions with what NDWest14 concerns were covering AND freedom for the player.
I had that problem on a few missions, but damn I had such a good rythym to my aim that a f***ing BB Gun would make me a deadly opponent.
Definitely something to be improved on though. There's a few things I'd love.
- Traditional Fast Travel in Epiloge. You made your point R* but I just want to explore now
- Ditch the inventory system, it's borderline broken.
Linear game compared to an open world game. And again Uncharted 4 doesn't fail my mission for flanking, nor does it fail my mission for making a wrong turn, nor does it fail my mission for trying to complete the objective in a slightly different way.
I agree that is a pain, There are definitely some improvements they could make and i hope they do with the next games.
That doesn't really make it less or more restrictive as a game, you're just applying oddly specific criteria.
It has a considerable well documented input lag, thats not weight.
If the main story missions were good I wouldn't mind the linearity as much. Majority of them are so boring though. So many are listen to dialogue while following an npc then murder a bunch of people. If I'm going to be fed dialogue, I'd rather have a cutscene than be forced to follow a path where the only fun I can make is bumping into another npc.
It is also annoying when you stop to do something other than the objective and the npc is constantly reminding you what you are supposed to be doing. Can't even stop to look around for five seconds before they are bugging you to do the next thing.
It is also annoying when you stop to do something other than the objective and the npc is constantly reminding you what you are supposed to be doing. Can't even stop to look around for five seconds before they are bugging you to do the next thing.
There's nothing odd about it. Uncharted is a linear franchise so there are obviously going to be rules in place to make sure you're on a certain path. It's just kinda what you accept for a game like that. The same doesn't apply to an open-world game.
No, not really? Uncharted is designed to be linear. There is no clash between the missions and the world outside those missions like RDR2
Specific criteria which restricts the player agency, how does that not make it more restrictive? I can't go left or right I have to go straight, that's literally restricting what I can do when it really doesn't have to. Why shouldn't you be able to flank? The simplest stuff in a shooting game.
For God sake I turned off the mission marker to start the game and made one wrong turn onto another road with the carriage for a few feet and had to start all over again.
Where it really hit me was the mission where you
I've seen the "sneak into heavily guarded area and complete objective" mission tons of times but most open-world games in recent memory are pretty free-form and let you tackle it whatever way you want. In Red Dead it's a totally guided experience; sneak in at this exact spot, stealth kill these specific guards in this order, go this exact way to reach the objective. Any deviation from that results in a game over and it's super frustrating when you try to do something that would make sense in-universe like going a different around to make sure you aren't seen. And it's not that I think this is necessarily a bad way of designing missions, but rather that it feels so at odds with the game's world design, which encourages you to explore and do things the way you choose.
sneak into the army fort to break out Eagle Flies.
Why can't you accept an open world game with linear missions? I mean there's plenty of other examples of it. Spider Man, the Batman Arkham games, Forza Horizon, all have missions where you basically can't deviate even slightly from the task or its execution.
In public yea, for obvious reasons.
It happens all the time in more private settings, devs are human, and many are also vocally self critical.
And people sometimes confuse twitter for private conversation, with predictable consequences.