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SturokBGD

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,414
Ontario
User Banned (1 day): Inflammatory driveby, accumulated history
Red Dead Redemption 2 story missions are like when you try to discuss valid criticism of a game but a bunch of babies get mad at you because the game is the only thing worthwhile in their pathetic lives.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,120
Witcher 3 quests could be approached in several ways without failing

But then, Witcher 3 lacked the complexity, interactivity and unscripted AI generated situations R* (and Bethesda :P) games have.

But yeah, I've been saying since the very first day that rdr2 story missions all felt like mere tutorials.
I expected things to change later on but it doesn't look like it.
And while I never believed 'sucking venom out of random NPC' was anything more than a scripted event, I did expect things like that to be mixed with more actual unscripted stuff and offer a lot more variety.
or it wouldn't feel like every player is experiencing largely the same events
 

mindsale

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,911
It absolutely does. I play missions on the mini map highlighted areas. Go to YELLOW interact with X.

Much of this is because of the game's other problems. Not that it isn't a marvel, it just feels ancient.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I don't know what "player agency" means. Can you help a brother out?

Being able to use the gun you prefer (and own) during a story mission.

There are many mission in which you are forced to use certain weapons, most noticeable the train robbery in Chapter 2, in which you are forced to use the carbine repeater to rob the train even if you don't want it.

It's not like this is a sniping mission where you can only use a sniper rifle, no, this is completely unrelated to how the missions plays out and completely unrelated to the event or story, the game just decides that you are using that weapon and that weapon only.

I tried to get to my horse before the missions begins and change my loadout to a rifle and a shotgun, nope, after the cutscene the game immediately and magically turn my rifle into the carbine repeater.

''USE THE CARBINE REPEATER YOU LITTLE SHIT, THAT'S HOW THIS MISSIONS IS GONNA PLAY OUT CAUSE WE SAYS SO''
 
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Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
I've completed all the Uncharteds and RDR1 and 2. I have far more autonomy in Uncharted games outside, obviously, of cutscenes. Rockstar missions are like a barely interactive cinematic. It's astonishing that The Order got panned for this, yet Rockstar gets praised. Rockstar missions are like the modern Dragon's Lair or Space Ace. Utterly on rails.
I mean, I really can't agree. Sure, there's more agency in terms of how you can tackle arenas, at least when it comes to which way you want to go or whatever. But you enter and exist them from the same place every time, and everything in between those arenas is the exact same.
 

Staticneuron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,187
After beating game I found it mildly annoying (especially the magical weapon switch) but outside of missions the game is so open I forgive it. It is a perfect trade off from telling a fixed story (it is a prequel) to allowing a great amount of freedom outside of story.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,132
Being able to use the gun you like during a story mission.

There are many mission in which you are forced to use certain weapons, most noticeable the train robbery in Chapter 2, in which you are forced to use the carbine repeater to rob the train even if you don't want it.

It's not like this is a sniping mission where you can only use a sniper rifle, no, this is completely unrelated to how the missions plays out and completely unrelated to the event.


Thanks.


I guess it's a byproduct of having a hyper-focused narrative in an open-world game. It's like the opposite of Breath of the Wild, which doesn't give a damn how you accomplish most things just as long as they get done. They are 2-sides to the same polished dime.
 

flaxknuckles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,312
I get why some main story missions are scripted, but it's just bad design that some of the side missions are just as inflexible.

For example, I had a mission where I was supposed to collect a debt from a hunter, who agreed to pay me with a rare cougar pelt. When we went into the den, he insisted we split up, which was clearly a stupid idea and I didn't want to do it. There was literally no way to save him, though, without splitting up. The cougar simply had to eat this irrelevant character for the side mission to proceed.

Very bad design... it kills any immersion. Well behind the curve for the genre.
That exact mission got on my nerves too. You couldn't even sneak behind the guy so he would move forward. As long as he was in your line of sight he wouldn't move.

I don't need the missions to be as free as Elder Scrolls but I wish they weren't completely on-rails. I enjoy the missions more in Ubisoft games despite them not being as inventive because at least they dont constantly lead me around like I'm a child.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
All the rifles, shotguns and repeaters in the game can do the same animation, cause they are roughly the same size.

This isn't the case with most action sequences in the game, though, so I don't think the whole game should be written off as "RDR2 doesn't let me choose my gun, while Uncharted does."

Though, I agree, it should just let you use whatever you want. Ultimately, though, I think it's because Rockstar wants to make more seamless transitions between gameplay and exposition, similar to games like Uncharted but even to a higher degree of fluidity. The difference is, in Uncharted, Tomb Raider, or even previous Rockstar games, you might be going through an area using your M16 or your shotgun, and then the game breaks from gameplay to a an uncontrollable cutscene and your character magically has his pistol out instead, even though you the player never did that. In most games when this happens, I think we just sort of accept "Oh, that's just how it is."

RDR2 takes a different approach between uncontrolled cut scenes and gameplay, where it is far more seamless than in most other games, but at least with this one mission, it sounds like the game forces you to use a carbine instead of your dual wielded shotguns, or what have you. I'm usually really aware of this because, like you, I love player agency in games, but this isn't even something that I noticed.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,399
London
I mean, I really can't agree. Sure, there's more agency in terms of how you can tackle arenas, at least when it comes to which way you want to go or whatever. But you enter and exist them from the same place every time, and everything in between those arenas is the exact same.
We will have to agree to disagree, and I respect your view. I honestly think that Rockstar are absolutely wedded to making their narratives as close to a movie as possible, even moreso than David Cage, and their mission restrictions are reflective of this. Which I find interesting, because their very scripted missions are set in stark contrast to the huge open world surrounding them.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,061
This is oddly making me think back to Kingdom Come, which is an open-world game that tries to make its story missions open-ended but still manages to tell a coherent linear story. I'm not saying it's an amazing story but it's a coherent one that still affords a lot of player choice. You can say what you want about the the game's many problems, but its quests usually featured multiple paths that altered the overall story.

Even though Metal Gear is criticized for its main story, I'm not sure the open-ended missions are the reason for that. I think that's more about the overall structure of the main story -- how it has so much playtime devoted to missions that don't really progress the main plot. The ones that did progress the main plot I thought maintained an excellent balance between player agency and telling a story. They just have to resort to different tools than the Uncharted-like structure of Rockstar missions these days.
 

nanskee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,071
Seems like modern day gameplay vs story debate people had on gamefaqs back in the day. It's hard for an open world game to do both well. Sounds like from a gameplay perspective, Red Dead has been outclassed in some ways.

Watching a streamer during the launch and he was complaining about how restricted that game was, though the world and the characters were so detailed and living. People have their preferences.

Some people like shenmue, some people like dark souls and some like both I guess.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Please elaborate if you can
I don't really want to get into an actual conversation with you, because of your shitty behavior. Maybe if you come at me a little differently next time.
I don't think anyone disagrees that Rockstar are trying to tell a story as cinematically as possible. But for me they go too far. The mission won't be any less cinematic if they allow me to complete the objective my own way. It is a game, after all, not a movie.
Well, I think the strictness in terms of "hey, your horse needs to be right here" is more a technical thing, because they need your character to be in a specific place for a specific cutscene to actually make sense.

As for lack of player agency during stuff like combat, I think there's definitely a certain value to that.
The part where you assault the mansion would have felt far less narratively significant if the game didn't lead you to certain point at certain time, and instead gave you the mansion and said "have at it".

And I'm fine with everyone's personal preference. it's when people act like their personal preference is an inherent flaw (I don't think every story needs to have player agency) that I have a problem with it.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I feel like the game is much more enjoyable while you are in free roam, your weapon loadout don't get changed and gang member won't keep shouting ''ARTHUR WE NEED TO PUSH FORWARD!!!!'' at you during gunfights like it's fucking D-Day or something.

Why the fuck do I need to push forward anyway, Javier? I got a rifle in my hand not a shotgun you fucking idiot.

I feel like a lot of story missions are just too control freak, it's like the game wants to control you in every way possible, your loadout, your shooting position and even your play style.

I also feel like there's a conflict in the development team here, you can see from a few story missions that it does try giving you some agency, such as Dutch asking you if you want to go first or sent out the gang, but ultimately I think the ''nah we have to control the player more'' team wins.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
I don't know what "player agency" means. Can you help a brother out?

Giving choice or the illusion of choice, as if you can approach a scenario the way you want to approach it.

An example of a game with high player agency is like Dishonored 2, where not only can you approach every level/scenario in the game using unique powers, weapons, or methods of take down, but you can even choose to not hurt targets, spare them, avoid being seen at all, or do the opposite... play it like a Doom-esque FPS. The best games respond to this play style and reward you (or punish you) in different ways. A game like Fallout might be seen has having high player agency as well.

In all games, of course, it can only be an illusion of choice. Even a game with high player agency like Dishonored or Prey (2017) don't let you just stop and do whatever you want. E.g., in Prey (2017) you can't really ... decide to play solitare on the computers instead of defeating the deadly alien mutants.

In my post here I outline where prior GTA's (III, VC, SA) gave you the illusion of choice (player agency) better than newer GTA's (IV and V, and RDR1 and 2 fall into this as well).
 

ashtaar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,518
Yeah add me to the camp of people that loved the game but found this really annoying.
It got less annoying as the game simply breaks your will to try to do anything interesting at all.
This game actually reminds me a lot of Assassins Creed 3 (not just because Charles is clearly Connors great grand son in actions and attitude)
That game was rightly critiqued for how the game's central tenets seem to be about freedom vs control but regularly takes your freedom away in story missions. Arbitrary fail states, instant fail stealth missions, limiting your choice of weaponry etc imo should have been left in the Ps3/360 gen.
I'm not saying the game would have been better with no story mission restrictions, what I'm saying is that these story missions would not have been massively changed if they applied a more open ended nature to the missions. As someone else stated the first few bounties I thought would be open ended so I could sneak up and capture the guy but no I have to have a cutscene and tom foolery play out. What would I have really lost if I could have lasso'd him right away?
There were some missions were you are offered some latitude (please don't kill anyone) but I would have appreciated more.
As has been stated GTA3 allowed more open ended gameplay, in GTAV case it's very hard for me to believe that the tradeoff was worth it given the story wasn't particularly good imo. In this game it's more forgivable given the weightiness of the games story.
While most games with wide open gameplay tend to not have a good story I do feel like given the SIGNIFICANT investment rockstar made they could have added the dialogue to make it still be cohesive. DE: MD had alternate audio for if you played loud and messy or quiet and stealthy.
I guess this is all to say that for me the game would easily pass AC:Odd if I was actually able to do more of what I wanted.
In the end it doesn't make a huge difference since Rockstar already has my money but it would have been nice
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
Totally agree. I mentioned it in another thread but the missions in Red Dead Redemption 2 are, by far, the worst missions I've every played in an otherwise decent (or better) open world game precisely because of how little agency they offer. I don't think I've ever played a game (open world or linear) where the mission design felt so on-rails and was so totally at odds with everything else in the gam; even GTA5 felt less restrictive. There are times when it feels like the main missions are completely on-rails, and it destroys any immersion. It's not possible for me to buy into a story or world where dismounting your horse feet from your companion causes a mission failure or requires you to mount the horse again, take a step forward, and dismount the horse. The lack of agency brings out the worst of the combat mechanics by making it feel sluggish, removing any possibility of experimenting with the mechanics in the game (particularly when the game often decides precisely what you can use by stripping everything else from your industry and forcing you to select what it wants) and throwing hordes of enemies at you because there's little other way the game can challenge you with such a heavily on-rails experience.

The stranger missions are considerably better because at least there you generally have some degree of freedom, but the main missions are comical in how they must be played in such an exact manner with no room for deviation; they're like being on a rollercoaster except every minute or two it stops arbitrarily and you need to do some relatively inconsequential action before it goes again. The main missions being basically tutorials up to the third chapter also doesn't help. EDIT: Although I will say the cougar mission entered above was very irritating.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,119
Just another thing that almost every single mainstream review didn't think was an issue or not enough to be worthwhile deducting any points for.
 

Ultimadrago

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,142
I feel like the game is much more enjoyable while you are in free roam, your weapon loadout don't get changed and gang member won't keep shouting ''ARTHUR WE NEED TO PUSH FORWARD!!!!'' at you during gunfights like it's fucking D-Day or something.

Why the fuck do I need to push forward anyway, Javier? I got a rifle in my hand not a shotgun you fucking idiot.

Yeah, I'm assuming they do it to fill dead air with a sense of urgency. I agree that they could calm down the frequency just a bit. It bleeds into non-combat scenarios as well. *Not a specific example, but similar for tasks just as menial*

"Let's go fishing, Arthur."
*two seconds later after accepting*
"You coming Arthur?"
"Arthur, we're going fishing."
"Arthur, we going or what?"
"You coming Arthur?"

In the span of what feels like a minute. "Calm the hell down!", I exclaim from my living room couch.
 

FelipeMGM

#Skate4
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,012
Just today I had a couple encounters that annoyed me a bit.

Like, the game wants to be realistic and have your guns stowed on your horse, that's fine, I actually like that. But some missions are so scripted and not dynamic at all that if sometimes you don't start the mission with the guns on you already, the game won't let you get them during the mission. You can go after your horse, stand right beside your rifle and it's impossible to get the gun. Another example I got today was where there was this big mission coming up, so I bought the best shotgun in the game, upgraded with all the best parts because I knew it would be a big encounter and I wanted to be well prepared. During the mission, Dutch wanted me to shoot a lock with a shotgun, and instead of allowing me to use the top-notch gun that I bought especially for this mission, the game automatically switches with some shitty one that Dutch handled me and the game just vanishes my sick shotie. I couldn't use my own gun for the rest of the mission

These are two examples but there is plenty more. I actually do love the game overall, there is a lot of greatness in this title but these kinds of frustrations are constant
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
I feel like the game is much more enjoyable while you are in free roam, your weapon loadout don't get changed and gang member won't keep shouting ''ARTHUR WE NEED TO PUSH FORWARD!!!!'' at you during gunfights like it's fucking D-Day or something.

Why the fuck do I need to push forward anyway, Javier? I got a rifle in my hand not a shotgun you fucking idiot.

I felt this way in a number of missions in RDR2 that I thought that was poorly implemented.

I'm only into chapter 3 or so, so still super early... but a good example in Chapter 1 is when you're first raiding that ... camp of baddies to rescue whoever, or whatever you're doing. We killed all the baddies, and I'm going around looting the bodies, and Dutch is yelling at me, "C'mon Arthur! C'mon Arthur stop wasting our time!" or whatever, and when you do finally join him in the middle, all he says is "Okay Arthur, go find the explosives." And it's like For fucks sake Dutch I was JUST exploring the area anyway when you were hollering for me!
 

Shan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,961
Yeah, I'm assuming they do it to fill dead air with a sense of urgency. I agree that they could calm down the frequency just a bit. It bleeds into non-combat scenarios as well. *Not a specific example, but similar for tasks just as menial*

"Let's go fishing, Arthur."
*two seconds later after accepting*
"You coming Arthur?"
"Arthur, we're going fishing."
"Arthur, we going or what?"
"You coming Arthur?"

In the span of what feels like a minute. "Calm the hell down!", I exclaim from my living room couch.
This is definitely something that bothered me a lot. Especially in missions where you end up killing a dozen people you'd, naturally, want to loot them but the NPCs constantly nag you to follow.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,496
One thing I noticed that bothered me, there seems to be.alot of missions that basically only let me press the stick forward. I would press forwards and try to turn left or right and the game would take seconds for me to be able to do that.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
All of Rockstar's open world games are like this. GTAV was terrible about this shit. There were a few choices for a lot of the bigger missions but you still had to do things in a very exact manner that limited player choice outside of who you shot in the mission for the most part.
 
Apr 19, 2018
3,970
Germany
The mission structure and the fail states are archaic as it gets, it's really quite annoying especially coming from the great AC: Odyssey. Like GTA 3 is almost 20 years old, you would think Rockstar would have changed things up a bit by now, but no, it's the same old restrictive mess. Worked well in 2001, in 2018? Not so much.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,119
The mission structure and the fail states are archaic as it gets, it's really quite annoying especially coming from the great AC: Odyssey. Like GTA 3 is almost 20 years old, you would think Rockstar would have changed things up a bit by now, but no, it's the same old restrictive mess. Worked well in 2001, in 2018? Not so much.

If anything it's even more restrictive than their previous games.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I especially HATE how sometimes you and your gang members gets off the your horses, and there, on your back, are two guns that the game PICKED for you.

We are supposed to select our own weapon loadout before leaving the horses, remember? That's how the tutorial told us, that's how Dutch told us before hitting the O'Driscoll boys, that's how Javier told us before rescuing John from the wolves. Hell that's how FREE ROAM gameplay told us. It's the RULE of the game.

What happened to characters reminding you to take out weapon from your horse like in Chapter 1? and let's not forget Chapter 1 is a tutorial, you are supposed to remember to select your loadout whenever you leave your horse, even during story missions, but NOPE, I guess the game will randomly put 2 guns on your back without you even noticing, even if it's against the rule of the game itself.

Video games have rules, that's why they are video games, when Arthur get off his horse without previously selecting any main weapon, there should be no weapons on his back, that is always the rule since Chapter 1, that is always the rule during free roam gameplay, but these story missions don't care, they completely ignores the rule of the game and do whatever it pleases. Not even for story or mission purpose.
 
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Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
I don't really want to get into an actual conversation with you, because of your shitty behavior. Maybe if you come at me a little differently next time.

Lol

It's quicker and easier to just admit you're spouting off buzzwords that you don't understand ;)

It's okay, we all mindlessly stan for one thing or the other.
 

Big G

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,605
Agreed, OP. There have already been several mission failure screens where I groaned "this sucks." The one that stands out for me is very early in the game, where if Lenny runs ahead of you onto the next train car he just gets shot and dies and that's it, mission failed. It's terrible, woefully outdated mission design.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
GTA3: Your assassination target can be rammed off the road into water, blown up by a grenade, stopped by a traffic jam, dragged out of his car and shot, etc.

GTA4/5: Your assassination target is driving an invincible car that cannot be damaged. This car will always be slightly faster than yours so that the chase sequence will last however long it was scripted to last. Once you have chased long enough and hit an event trigger, you will be able to kill/damage your target in whatever fashion the designers have prescribed.
 

Premium

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
836
NC
OP is determined to make everyone on ERA dislike RDR2 as much as they do, haha. When will it end?
 
OP
OP
Phabh

Phabh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,702
Why does every moment have to have agency? Why can't the vast majority of game-world time be about agency, with a critical path that embraces linear story-telling? I know that when I'm forced into situations where I don't want Arthur to be, or actions I don't want him to take, I feel real character development happening because the character I crafted in the open world is at the mercy of circumstance and pressure - which is what happens to actual people and a huge number of celebrated characters in literature and film.

I think that's the broader point of this game: It's not always about you. You're not going to save the day. It rejects the narcissism inherent in most other games, which rely almost exclusively on power fantasy and the hero's tale.

This isn't that. It's something altogether different. And it's brilliant. Who cares?

Fucking lol. Now interactivity in games is narcissism. I think I've read everything.
 

Ichi

Banned
Sep 10, 2018
1,997
i will find that out tonight. finally i will install this thing lol it's been sitting here forever.
 

Dante316

Member
Oct 25, 2017
947
I'm happy story missions are linear. That's what I loved about them..hell I wanted more cinematics too..
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
OP is determined to make everyone on ERA dislike RDR2 as much as they do, haha. When will it end?

I LOVE RDR2 but there are so many garbage designs in this game.

i will find that out tonight. finally i will install this thing lol it's been sitting here forever.

Chapter 1 missions is actually a lot more free than Chapter 2 and Chapter 3 missions, also don't bother with selecting your favorite guns for the train mission in Chapter 2, the game will decide what you use anyway, not for story or any reasons too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,512
Bandung Indonesia
Yeah, we know, its a linear story.

What's glaringly lacking from your OP is example of games offering "player agency" and amazing storytelling.

Even if there are no other games out there offering such a thing, we can't criticize the strict linearity of the game's main missions that betrays the open world where it took place and how believable it is?

Heck, it often doest even let you use your own preferred set of weapons as it arbitrarily changes the weapon sets you set up. At least games like Witcher 3 allows you to set up and plays with your own weapons / skills during missions, lol.
 
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Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,875
Netherlands
Yeah it's absolutely to the detriment of the game. You don't even need big complex systems or branching storylines. I just did the mission where you have to break Micah out of jail and I was like oh cool! Do I go guns blazing into the sheriff's office? Do I pickpocket the keys? Do I pull off the bars with my horse?

Turns out what I had to do was walk six feet to the direction of the on screen text and follow three button prompts.

Why even let me do this in the first place, why is it not a cutscene to then immediately shoot up people. At least shooting up people has a fail state. They set up these interesting events and then go about it in the most rote, boring way possible. If any of those dynamic horse balls effects were gone into adding a little bit of leeway in the missions this game would've been soooo much better.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Yeah, we know, its a linear story.

What's glaringly lacking from your OP is example of games offering "player agency" and amazing storytelling.

The story telling is great but the issue here isn't ''linear'', I love linear games, the issue here is ''on-rail''.

Even God of War during the first chapter is less on-rail than this.

If God of War was made my Rockstar you won't even be allowed to use fist & shield when fighting against the Stranger, the game will literally not let you switch to fists, you have no other choice but to use the axe.

Yeah it's absolutely to the detriment of the game. You don't even need big complex systems or branching storylines. I just did the mission where you have to break Micah out of jail and I was like oh cool! Do I go guns blazing into the sheriff's office? Do I pickpocket the keys? Do I pull off the bars with my horse?

Turns out what I had to do was walk six feet to the direction of the on screen text and follow three button prompts.

Why even let me do this in the first place, why is it not a cutscene to then immediately shoot up people.
At least shooting up people has a fail state. They set up these interesting events and then go about it in the most rote, boring way possible. If any of those dynamic horse balls effects were gone into adding a little bit of leeway in the missions this game would've been soooo much better.

This, THIS, THIS ,THIS.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,786
the difference between past rockstar games and RDR2 is that
1) it's 2018 and no longer 2013, many games from many genres, but especially open world, offer immense freedom in approaching quests because on-rails is boring.
2) RDR2 lets you identify with and "build" your character more than ever in any rockstar game. it has an honor/reuputation/bounty system.
of course I don't mind trevor going on a shooting spree, but I do mind Arthur shooting up whole towns when I could simply ride away, when I play him as a good person and the game lets me "build" him as a good person with its honor/reuputation/bounty system .
It's incredibly disappointing, unsatisfying and immersion breaking.

it's also insane how often simple standard functions are disabled during missions, often you cant get your favorite weapon from a horse, need to fight, wait for your companions and you might die because of that or your companions die out of nowhere.
oh and I also lost a very good revolver once after a checkpoint reload after a companion died.

it's incredibly stale and antiquated mission design that directly contrasts the design of the open world and makes it feel like 2 different games and that is a huge immersion breaker for me.
 

Mochi

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,704
Seattle
I really liked it. I think it was a wonderfully presented linear story. I don't think games need to give players agency, it's entirely up to the creators. I imagine in the future games will be able to dynamically tell tales of the same quality, but even after that becomes true, watching a story unfold without having control over it has its own qualities. I don't always want to make choices, sometimes I just want to sit by the campfire and hear a tall tale. I hope they continue to tell these great stories however they want to.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
The most free I've ever felt in one of RDR2's story missions is when it let me get a haircut... of my choice. (It was part of a mission, don't ask.) Like, y'all don't get it--Rockstar actually... let me choose my own, instead of mandating one in particular. Facial hair too! It was sooo liberating.

Like, I haven't finished RDR2 yet but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the most free it gets. I've failed missions for walking the wrong way, doing the wrong thing, and not keeping up with the mission's pace; it has a strict script and if you don't stick to it, you're doing it again. You're not so much a player or person, but rather an actor, and it's a shame because it does nothing to take advantage of the opulent detail they've created.

The Witcher 3 showed that you can do a grand-scale open worlds and still have gameplay with consequence in missions--so RDR2's story has mostly been disappointing in this regard. I don't want to observe the world Rockstar has made, I want to play in it (and be part of it).
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
The story is linear.
The open-world isn't.
That's all.
There is linear and there is linear. Battlefield 3 is a go-to example for linearity gone wrong. Deviating from the script was an instant game over. Rockstar games are like Battlefield 3. However, unlike Rockstar, DICE took those criticisms of staunch linearity to heart and as a result modern Battlefield games combine narrative with freedom of approach.
 
OP
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Phabh

Phabh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,702
This has been the case with every Rockstar game since San Andreas, which I think is the last major Rockstar game to give you the illusion of agency during missions. It most stood out to me, though, in GTAIV, because that was the first to really limit you with how you approached missions.

Now, no Rockstar game has had true agency since they got critical/popular acclaim with GTAIII. All of them limit your agency in some way, but GTAIII through to San Andreas were all rough around the edges enough to let you beat the mission in ways that you wanted to beat it, which made the game feel like more of a sandbox... It's where the phrase "sandbox" came from in regard to these games. For the most part, if you wanted to take your car and drive to drive over the bad guy to kill him, or do a driveby, or get out and take him on foot, or crash a helicoptor into him, ... you had that ability to do so. Contrast this from almost any realistic action game of that era, which gave you a scenario that you had to play it from the way the game wanted you to play it, and GTAIII, VC, and San Andreas were such a breath of fresh air.

One of the examples I use the most with this is San Andreas to GTAIV. In San Andreas, there was a mission where an enemy you have to kill arrives at the scene, and then after a cut scene, jumps onto a motorcycle and rides away, and you have to either kill him immediately or jump into your car, chase him, and kill him en route. This is a mission that I failed the first time, but then thought about it, and knowing where the motorcycle would spawn, I parked my car near by and then triggered the scene. Lo and behold, the enemy crashed into my car, but the games scripting kept him on his cycle, but it was enough for me to take out my gun and take him down. It felt really satisfying to me to do this, like I had done things my own way. And I played the rest of the game looking for opportunities like that. Even when the game scripted most sequences, the existence of that one moment early on made me think of the entire game differently because it made me look for creative opportunities to handle situations... Using enormous trucks instead of cars, dirt bikes, helicoptors, more.

Similarly, in Vice City, in the final mission where you take back your mansion ... that was a hard mission ... but after dying once or twice, I smartly used a helicopter to start the mission, so I was able to quickly jump in and out of my chopper to head to areas of the map to get health in the middle of the mission. It made it kinda cheap, but it was a level of creativity that I enjoyed. Even though it made the difficulty of that mission less and dropped the believability of it (why would my opponent just ... stand there while I jumped into a helicopter, flew away, ate a pizza, and flew back?), it made it feel that much more rewarding to do things my own way.

But that all changed with GTAIV. GTAIV went for a heavily scripted experience. Pre-release clips of Niko jumping onto cars and hanging on for dear life, things that would have been built in as mechanics in previous GTA's, were now scripted sequences. Forced train derailments in things like The Ballad of Gay Tony -- features in GTA:SA -- were now scripted mission sequences that you couldn't do on your own. Not only that, but the game typically gave you the car to drive before the mission ... Your cousin would say, "Hey Niko, get into my car you drive..." Which was very different from past GTA's where, typically, the game would just prompt you, "Pick up Mike Torino," but you could use whatever car you wanted, a fast sports car or perhaps a hulking monster truck. In GTAIV, if you didn't get into Roman's car, the game would prompt you "get into Roman's car," and fail the mission if you didn't comply in a timely way. Likewise, using the environment to setup hazards didn't work anymore either. In the bank heist mission, I died in the alley the first time and decided "oh...hm.. okay next time I'll place a car right at the getaway sequence.." figuring I could jump on this car and just lose the cops. It seemed like something a previous GTA would let you do... You escape the bank with the money, all you have to do is lose the cops. But... that's now how GTAIV worked. When I Replayed the mission, nah, my car was gone, removed from that scene. I got it from a technical POV, when the mission starts the world drops all of the assets/models from it and gives you the world to play in, but that illusion from GTA San Andreas was broken completely. Where GTA:SA (and III and VC) gave you the illusion that you could approach scenarios however you wanted to approach them (even if you couldn't in most instances), GTAIV killed that illusion and made it very obvious that, no, you have to play through the missions how we want you to.

Another instance of this is with enemies who can take infinite damage. The first instance is the first street tough that you chase in GTAIV, the game tells you to chase after and kill him, but it doesn't tell you that shooting him does no damage or that he's invincible. It's all because the game wants to setup a contrived choice because the antagonist flees to the roof, falls off, where you are given a choice to save him or kill him in a dramatic way. The problem is when you notice that he's invincible for the first 90% of the mission. It loses the impact, it makes you feel like you're just playing through a movie.

GTAIV was the first of the GTAs to really go all in on this concept. Sure, previous games limited you in some way, but most didn't. If you shoot down Mike Toreno's chopper in GTA San Andreas (San Fierro chapter) with 1 well timed shot right at the entrance to the free way, then you take him down. Or, you can chase him down the freeway where he might escape or give you one last chance to kill him. In GTAIV, this would have been a contrived moment.

RDR hid the illusion of agency much better: It's a game on horses with low powered weapons, but it also came out after GTAIV, the game that made it painfully obvious that agency is gone, that any illusion of agency simply isn't there anymore.

Rockstar games are worse off for it, though I think I've come to just accept it more now than I did initially, which really disappointed me with GTAIV. I don't think it's any more or less agency than most other major action games, save for games that really focus in on playing your own way (like say, Dishonored, Prey, Deus Ex, Hitman, etc). FOr the most part, Rockstar games give you more agency than most other major action games like, say, Uncharted, Last of Us, Tomb Raider, Assassins Creed, etc (this may not be the case with the latest AC game, but is up to ACIV, the last one I really spent a lot of time with). But, still, I'd like to see more, but sort of doubt we will. Most missions that I've played in RDR2 have periods of being heavily scripted and then periods of being able to approach them your own way... They don't "force you to fail" like a lot of other action games do (e.g., funnel you into a predictable failure area to progress the story... this is a very common concept with Uncharted and Tomb Raider). But, still, there's not enough illusion of agency in these games anymore, and there likely never will be. The allure of making tightly scripted sequences like in Uncharted is too much for Rockstar and they go that route... they're very easy to sell to casual fans and press, but I think it's the wrong interpretation of the complaints following GTAIV.

GTAIV got a lot of criticism for "not being fun," and when GTAV came out, I think Rockstar interpreted that to mean "We need more over the top set piece missions akin to Uncharted." Which... we certainly got, and most of them were pretty good. But, a scripted mission where you have to fly a small plane into another plane in order to blow that plane up and drive out on a jeep that parachutes down, that's a cool set piece (taken from Uncharted), but when I think of fun mission design, I think of a mission where I could take my car, jump onto a boat, and then siege the evil drug dealer's yacht from my boat ... Or I could break into the military base, steal that jet that I've had my eye on, and use the jet to kill all of the drug dealer's henchmen before I parachute down onto the yacht and take out the drug dealer. GTAV offered fake agency with some mission choices this way, but it didn't allow you to define those choices the way that GTAIII, VC, and San Andreas did.

Ultimately, it's just a decision of game direction. The Uncharted-esque setpiece moments are easier to tell stories with. You can control your so-called "ludonarrative dissonance" (as much as I hate that phrase) issues better, which was a common critique of games from enthusiast groups at the time. But, ultimately, I think you lose all of what makes the sandbox a sandbox, which is a loss for the genre.

Great post.