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Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
Failing a mission by going to the exact point the mission was going to send me to anyway a bit too early happened more than once and was an undeniable frustration throughout the game.

The game makes no compromises about what it wants you to do at any given time during its main story missions, for better and definitely for worse.
 

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,230
Decapod 10
The first Redemption is the exact same way during missions. Don't take detours to check out anything interesting, don't get off your horse to check out those flowers, don't loot those dead guys because you've got to keep up with the NPCs or you'll fail the mission. If you're not in a mission it's fine, but eventually on missions you learn to just take the most clear-cut, obvious route between A and B and that's all.
 

Yam's

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,044
The most frustrating thing about this is that leaving some freedom to the player wouldn't affect the way the story is told. Except for some missions where the story is told in the middle of the action (in which case I don't mind the restrictions), dialogues and cutscenes usually happen outside of the action.

So giving some freedom to the player would not impact the story. Failing a mission cause you decided to rush the enemy (and succeeded in doing so) but left a comrade a few meters behind is dumb. Rather than recording tons of random dialogues for the npcs that I'll never notice, having a different dialogue from your crew acknowledging that you acted rashly would have been more to my liking. There are a lot of missions where I failed cause I wasn't in the right spot right away or decided to flank the enemy from a different route that the game had in mind. More freedom in these missions wouldn't have impacted the story in any way.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Failing a mission by going to the exact point the mission was going to send me to anyway a bit too early happened more than once and was an undeniable frustration throughout the game.

The game makes no compromises about what it wants you to do at any given time during its main story missions, for better and definitely for worse.
I don't think it's "definitely for worse". If the game is anything, it's that it's largely consistent in what it expects of the player. Once I knew what the game expected of me, I just followed along by their rules. If you're the type of person that keeps struggling against it, and not picking up what they're laying down, then I can see how you'd have a bad time.

Like that dismounting thing, once I figured out that the game automatically dismounts me once I reach the desired spot, I just rode on until I reached that spot and it automatically dismounts me. Further along in the game, and I know that I can dismount once the horse starts moving along slowly.

Eh, from what I've played of RDR2, I wouldn't co-sign that.
No accounting for taste. AC's storytelling in general is barely worthwhile to follow along with, let alone good enough to touch something like RDR.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I love the game but have to agree, the game also doesn't let you use your own weapon loadout, it just keeps fucking with your weapon loadout for no good reason.

I also hate how if you get off your horse even just half feet earlier than the game wants you to, your gang member goes ''WHAT ARE U DOING'' but the cutscene triggers anyway.
 

Akumatica

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,746
In GTAIII there was a mission where these guys were in a car leaving from the garage after a cut scene and you were supposed to chase them. Instead, like every other chance I could, I'd fail the mission and attempt to complete it on my own terms. Park a bunch of vehicles in front of the garage doors, get grenades and start the mission. Now they were trapped and I just stood there and blew them up.
When I attempted anything similar in GTAIV, the cars I meticulously placed would disappear. Or in the case of the mission where you were meant to chase a biker, I knew his route after a few attempts and figured I'd camp an intersection and take him out. Nope, any attempt to drive to where I knew he'd pass through resulted in a failed mission as Rockstar wanted you to play the missions exactly how they wanted you too.

That was the last game of theirs I played through. I just don't enjoy that much rigidity after enjoying GTAIII so much.
 

Tibarn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
13,370
Barcelona
Yep, it's more restrictive than it needs to be and makes the most epic story missions play like shit.

You tried to kill the enemy running to them with a shotgun... oooops John Marston died! You think you can use the tree there to take cover? Out of bounds, mission failed!

And sometimes it's even worse, yesterday I did a quest about saving a girl from the camp from some slavedrivers, I threw the lasso to the enemy, his own horse killed him by stomping on him and I failed the quest (or so I think, it was really confusing).
 

electroaffe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,199
Berlin
I don't know.. When it makes sense, you can use a stealthy approach or just start to fire. When you are asked to blow a hole in a wall, you can use the object promoted by the story or the dynamite you have in your inventory. The game can be very restrictive but only if it wants to tell a very specific scene. That's absolutely fine with me considering the outstanding direction of the game.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I like linear story missions but not on-rail story missions, there's a difference for me.

I feel like RDR1 wasn't so literally on-rail, it also didn't fuck with my weapon loadout all the time.

Take the train robbery mission in Chapter 2 for example, the game keeps swapping your gun to the carbine repeater, even after I already selected a springfield rifle and a shotgun, for some reason there's just no way to not use that weapon in that mission, and during the new dead eye mode tutorial, the game forces you to use the dead eye with the repeater ONLY, I was holding a revolver in my hand, not the repeater.

The carbine repeater has nothing to do with the mission or the story, and not to mention you can do another mission with Micah with gives you a better repeater, the Lancaster repeater, why would I use the starting repeater instead of Lancaster? but the game doesn't care, to rob the train you can only use what It wants you to use.

This isn't ''linear'', it's ''on-rail'', there's zero agency here and It really sour the mission for me, I don't feel like I am actually playing it at all.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
What's glaringly lacking from your OP is example of games offering "player agency" and amazing storytelling.

Deus Ex. You might have a mission that tasks you with getting to an objective in a building. You have the choice of how you approach/get into the building, how you get to the objective within it, as well as whether you do it completely stealthily or guns blazing, and certain story elements can change based on if you killed people or chose the pacifist route
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
Yeah, we know, its a linear story.

What's glaringly lacking from your OP is example of games offering "player agency" and amazing storytelling.
Uncharted is a linear story too, but the game doesn't pause forever if you hide behind the wrong cover, or get off your horse too early. Same goes for AC missions, if you want an open world comparison.
 

Jeremy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,639
I get why some main story missions are scripted, but it's just bad design that some of the side missions are just as inflexible.

For example, I had a mission where I was supposed to collect a debt from a hunter, who agreed to pay me with a rare cougar pelt. When we went into the den, he insisted we split up, which was clearly a stupid idea and I didn't want to do it. There was literally no way to save him, though, without splitting up. The cougar simply had to eat this irrelevant character for the side mission to proceed.

Very bad design... it kills any immersion. Well behind the curve for the genre.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,119
It needs to be repeated but there's a difference between linear missions and the ultra curated/restricted experiences Rockstar's linear missions are. It's not that much of an exaggeration to suggest that some of the "filler" missions basically feel like glorified cutscenes.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,116
Chesire, UK
Missions in Rockstar games have been on a downward slope of player agency since GTA 3.

In GTA 3 you could park a tank or a helicopter or whatever near by and really break open some missions. Even in San Andreas you could usually complete missions in ways other than the specific way intended.

By GTA 4 they were already getting into the really stupid shit, like missions where you have to chase a guy, but if you catch him to early it either ignores it or fails the mission. I remember one mission in particular where you have to chase a guy on a bike, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to knock him off his bike until a very specific scripted point is passed.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Uncharted is a linear story too, but the game doesn't pause forever if you hide behind the wrong cover, or get off your horse too early. Same goes for AC missions, if you want an open world comparison.
Uncharted is one long corridor broken up by a few arenas that funnel back into the main corridor once your encounter is finished. To compare these two in terms of the expectations of the scripting is completely ridiculous.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,356
It needs to be repeated but there's a difference between linear missions and the ultra curated/restricted experiences Rockstar's linear missions are. It's not that much of an exaggeration to suggest that some of the "filler" missions basically feel like glorified cutscenes.
This is what is frustrating to me. I think the storytelling in RDR is good, but I've seen better western movies and series than RDR. So the more passive and non-interactive it gets the more I feel disengaged

I don't think player agency is overrated, not imo anyway. The best thing RDR does with making the player feel involved imo is the little interactive narrative stuff with Arthur's journal and the little books and documents you can read. Other than that I feel like I'm just watching a CG film and unfortunately it's not why I come to games at all.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
Witcher 3 quests could be approached in several ways without failing
Witcher 3 is still fairly "linear" though. Like, sure, it's an rpg with dialogue choices that lead to occasional branching paths. But what you actually do, and how you tackle objectives given to you, is restricted compared to other games with even more player agency
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
The story missions are just that - *story* missions. They are intentionally and deliberately linear. This isn't inherently a problem in my opinion.
 

Jeremy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,639
The horse chase missions are some of the most aggravating.

The game making your horse run artificially slow because you can't catch a target until a specific point is truly dire mission design.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
The story missions are just that - *story* missions. They are intentionally and deliberately linear. This isn't inherently a problem in my opinion.

they are not linear, they are on-rail

I don't see Uncharted forcing you to use certain weapons only during a mission.

There's a mission in chapter 2 where you rob a train, and the game would not let you NOT use the carbine repeater as the main weapon, you just have to use it for some reason even though it's not related to the mission or the story.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,521
you're not allowed to fail and make progress in rdr2, which means you don't get to live with the consequences of doing something wrong in the story

whether that's good or bad depends on the person. i personally dislike that, but i'm aware that they can't tell the story they want to tell if i get one of the core characters killed before the script says theyre supposed to die
 

Jack Scofield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,452
I haven't played RDR2, but I'm not surprised. Rockstar games always feel like a time capsule from 10 years ago, especially in terms of controls.
 

Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
That's classic Rockstar mission design, and I can't stand it. In GTA V there is a mission where you are chasing a speedboat, and in the middle of the chase I looked at the mini-map and saw an opportunity to cut it off. As soon as I turned I failed the mission. Apparently it was SUPER important to the story that I not take that street.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
they are not linear, they are on-rail

I don't see Uncharted forcing you to use certain weapons only during a mission.

There's a mission in chapter 2 where you rob a train, and the game would not let you not use the carbine repeater as the main weapon, you just have to use it for some reason even though it's not related to the mission or the story.
It's because of the specific animation of hitting people. Not hard to figure out.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
This has been the case with every Rockstar game since San Andreas, which I think is the last major Rockstar game to give you the illusion of agency during missions. It most stood out to me, though, in GTAIV, because that was the first to really limit you with how you approached missions.

Now, no Rockstar game has had true agency since they got critical/popular acclaim with GTAIII. All of them limit your agency in some way, but GTAIII through to San Andreas were all rough around the edges enough to let you beat the mission in ways that you wanted to beat it, which made the game feel like more of a sandbox... It's where the phrase "sandbox" came from in regard to these games. For the most part, if you wanted to take your car and drive to drive over the bad guy to kill him, or do a driveby, or get out and take him on foot, or crash a helicoptor into him, ... you had that ability to do so. Contrast this from almost any realistic action game of that era, which gave you a scenario that you had to play it from the way the game wanted you to play it, and GTAIII, VC, and San Andreas were such a breath of fresh air.

One of the examples I use the most with this is San Andreas to GTAIV. In San Andreas, there was a mission where an enemy you have to kill arrives at the scene, and then after a cut scene, jumps onto a motorcycle and rides away, and you have to either kill him immediately or jump into your car, chase him, and kill him en route. This is a mission that I failed the first time, but then thought about it, and knowing where the motorcycle would spawn, I parked my car near by and then triggered the scene. Lo and behold, the enemy crashed into my car, but the games scripting kept him on his cycle, but it was enough for me to take out my gun and take him down. It felt really satisfying to me to do this, like I had done things my own way. And I played the rest of the game looking for opportunities like that. Even when the game scripted most sequences, the existence of that one moment early on made me think of the entire game differently because it made me look for creative opportunities to handle situations... Using enormous trucks instead of cars, dirt bikes, helicoptors, more.

Similarly, in Vice City, in the final mission where you take back your mansion ... that was a hard mission ... but after dying once or twice, I smartly used a helicopter to start the mission, so I was able to quickly jump in and out of my chopper to head to areas of the map to get health in the middle of the mission. It made it kinda cheap, but it was a level of creativity that I enjoyed. Even though it made the difficulty of that mission less and dropped the believability of it (why would my opponent just ... stand there while I jumped into a helicopter, flew away, ate a pizza, and flew back?), it made it feel that much more rewarding to do things my own way.

But that all changed with GTAIV. GTAIV went for a heavily scripted experience. Pre-release clips of Niko jumping onto cars and hanging on for dear life, things that would have been built in as mechanics in previous GTA's, were now scripted sequences. Forced train derailments in things like The Ballad of Gay Tony -- features in GTA:SA -- were now scripted mission sequences that you couldn't do on your own. Not only that, but the game typically gave you the car to drive before the mission ... Your cousin would say, "Hey Niko, get into my car you drive..." Which was very different from past GTA's where, typically, the game would just prompt you, "Pick up Mike Torino," but you could use whatever car you wanted, a fast sports car or perhaps a hulking monster truck. In GTAIV, if you didn't get into Roman's car, the game would prompt you "get into Roman's car," and fail the mission if you didn't comply in a timely way. Likewise, using the environment to setup hazards didn't work anymore either. In the bank heist mission, I died in the alley the first time and decided "oh...hm.. okay next time I'll place a car right at the getaway sequence.." figuring I could jump on this car and just lose the cops. It seemed like something a previous GTA would let you do... You escape the bank with the money, all you have to do is lose the cops. But... that's now how GTAIV worked. When I Replayed the mission, nah, my car was gone, removed from that scene. I got it from a technical POV, when the mission starts the world drops all of the assets/models from it and gives you the world to play in, but that illusion from GTA San Andreas was broken completely. Where GTA:SA (and III and VC) gave you the illusion that you could approach scenarios however you wanted to approach them (even if you couldn't in most instances), GTAIV killed that illusion and made it very obvious that, no, you have to play through the missions how we want you to.

Another instance of this is with enemies who can take infinite damage. The first instance is the first street tough that you chase in GTAIV, the game tells you to chase after and kill him, but it doesn't tell you that shooting him does no damage or that he's invincible. It's all because the game wants to setup a contrived choice because the antagonist flees to the roof, falls off, where you are given a choice to save him or kill him in a dramatic way. The problem is when you notice that he's invincible for the first 90% of the mission. It loses the impact, it makes you feel like you're just playing through a movie.

GTAIV was the first of the GTAs to really go all in on this concept. Sure, previous games limited you in some way, but most didn't. If you shoot down Mike Toreno's chopper in GTA San Andreas (San Fierro chapter) with 1 well timed shot right at the entrance to the free way, then you take him down. Or, you can chase him down the freeway where he might escape or give you one last chance to kill him. In GTAIV, this would have been a contrived moment.

RDR hid the illusion of agency much better: It's a game on horses with low powered weapons, but it also came out after GTAIV, the game that made it painfully obvious that agency is gone, that any illusion of agency simply isn't there anymore.

Rockstar games are worse off for it, though I think I've come to just accept it more now than I did initially, which really disappointed me with GTAIV. I don't think it's any more or less agency than most other major action games, save for games that really focus in on playing your own way (like say, Dishonored, Prey, Deus Ex, Hitman, etc). FOr the most part, Rockstar games give you more agency than most other major action games like, say, Uncharted, Last of Us, Tomb Raider, Assassins Creed, etc (this may not be the case with the latest AC game, but is up to ACIV, the last one I really spent a lot of time with). But, still, I'd like to see more, but sort of doubt we will. Most missions that I've played in RDR2 have periods of being heavily scripted and then periods of being able to approach them your own way... They don't "force you to fail" like a lot of other action games do (e.g., funnel you into a predictable failure area to progress the story... this is a very common concept with Uncharted and Tomb Raider). But, still, there's not enough illusion of agency in these games anymore, and there likely never will be. The allure of making tightly scripted sequences like in Uncharted is too much for Rockstar and they go that route... they're very easy to sell to casual fans and press, but I think it's the wrong interpretation of the complaints following GTAIV.

GTAIV got a lot of criticism for "not being fun," and when GTAV came out, I think Rockstar interpreted that to mean "We need more over the top set piece missions akin to Uncharted." Which... we certainly got, and most of them were pretty good. But, a scripted mission where you have to fly a small plane into another plane in order to blow that plane up and drive out on a jeep that parachutes down, that's a cool set piece (taken from Uncharted), but when I think of fun mission design, I think of a mission where I could take my car, jump onto a boat, and then siege the evil drug dealer's yacht from my boat ... Or I could break into the military base, steal that jet that I've had my eye on, and use the jet to kill all of the drug dealer's henchmen before I parachute down onto the yacht and take out the drug dealer. GTAV offered fake agency with some mission choices this way, but it didn't allow you to define those choices the way that GTAIII, VC, and San Andreas did.

Ultimately, it's just a decision of game direction. The Uncharted-esque setpiece moments are easier to tell stories with. You can control your so-called "ludonarrative dissonance" (as much as I hate that phrase) issues better, which was a common critique of games from enthusiast groups at the time. But, ultimately, I think you lose all of what makes the sandbox a sandbox, which is a loss for the genre.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
The story missions are just that - *story* missions. They are intentionally and deliberately linear. This isn't inherently a problem in my opinion.

No one said it's inherently a problem, but when missions are restrictive to the point where straying slightly too far, while still trying to achieve the objective, results in a failure, that's a problem. If they had made the mission area large enough to allow some variances in approach I doubt OP would have complained, but when it's restrictive to the point you only have one viable approach that can become annoying.

Essentially, they don't want you "breaking" sequences by trying different things as opposed to some other devs who might anticipate these and account for them in mission design
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
I've failed because I broke the law
At least in this case it often makes sense. In one mission I was, in the middle of a mission, supposed to meet Dutch in a saloon. If I then break the law, for example start shooting, the mission fails, which makes sense. I was supposed to meet Dutch, how would that be possible if the town is alarmed and the sheriff on its way? Magically trigger the cutscene and everything's forgotten? It makes sense to force the player to reload that checkpoint.

Apart from that, I agree to the fact, that the mission design is ristrictive. The thing is, however, I don't mind because I like the missions as such and their stories. I've never failed a mission because I somehow managed to fail their prompts. It's not that in every mission every slight misstep is punished with failure. I often took my time, I was infront of people I were supposed to stay behind and such. Never failed. In fact, missions only failed, for me, when I got shot.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
It's not really quite that simple. If they restricted you to a specific weapon, then I can assure you that there's a specific reason for it.

Yeah, everything has a reason, but we are talking about player agency here, and that reason is hurting it.

Like I said, I don't find the mission all that enjoyable at all cause I feel like I'm playing a different Arthur here, where's my Arthur with that fully upgraded Lancaster repeater and pump action shotgun? Why can't I rob the train with the pump action shotgun? Why can't I use the revolver during the manual dead eye introduction?

Is it breaking the story If I hit the passenger with the stock of my shotgun instead of the carbine repeater? Is it hurting the mission if I headshot the dude who got Shawn with the revolver instead of the carbine?

So I can't even use the weapon of my choice during a train robbery just because they assume everyone is gonna use the carbine repeater and ONLY the carbine repeater?

Might as well make John Marston say ''Hey Arthur we are gonna rob a train in New Hangover but remember, CARBINE REPEATER ONLY. What about me you say? I'll be using my Lancaster of course, a gun that you won't be allowed to use in the mission even if the other story missions unlocks it already. Sorry pal.''
 
Last edited:

Voytek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,811
Yeah the main missions are my least favorite part about the game. I actually kinda dread doing them. In a game that offers you so much freedom it's annoying to have it completely taken away from you and feel forced into doing things one certain way.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,183
UK
So, we have come to the stage where Rockstar defenders believe the quality of storytelling is tied to arbitrary restrictions in story missions of an open world game. As if there is a trade-off at the hands of the developer who can't possibly have a good story without compromising on player agency. Interesting spin.
 

Ultimadrago

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,142
This would be a problem if I needed player agency in the story missions to appreciate them. I'm in Chapter 3 still for Red Dead 2 and still am having
a great time with a number of the missions regardless of the bottom text telling me exactly where I need to be.

I'm a pretty large proponent for them being done correctly in titles that don't, but I don't need them to be in everything depending on how the other elements play out.

Having said that, I've rolled my eyes on occasion like many that have played Rockstar titles when I try to hobble one direction and get "Mission Failed".
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I can think of multiple missions where player agency is a thing/how the mission ends depends on something you do in particular
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
You saying that's the case, doesn't really make it so. If you go replay Uncharted 4 today, I can assure you, 90% of your playthrough will play out exactly the same way.
I've completed all the Uncharteds and RDR1 and 2. I have far more autonomy in Uncharted games outside, obviously, of cutscenes. Rockstar missions are like a barely interactive cinematic. It's astonishing that The Order got panned for this, yet Rockstar gets praised. Rockstar missions are like the modern Dragon's Lair or Space Ace. Utterly on rails.