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Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
we don't know when that mid-credits scene of Ross finding the ranch is set though, it could be well after the Epilogues.

Given that RDR1 starts with John arriving in Blackwater via boat and heading West (past his ranch again), it makes me wonder where on the coast he was coming from. Presumably they took him back to Siska while working on the deal they struck with him.

Seems like other credits scenes (Sadie and Charles leaving, Rains Fall visiting the mountains above the former reservation, Tilly still pregnant) take place directly after the Epilogues (as evidenced by Tilly still being pregnant post-credits if you meet her then, and Rains Fall getting on the train after his visit), I think it's more likely the scene with Ross takes place in the same timeframe. Why did the nascent Bureau wait 4 years before using John to hunt down Dutch is unclear - maybe because he took some time to gather a new gang and starting to stir trouble again after the shootout at Mt. Hagen?
 

FRANKEINSTEIN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
AZ
Epilogue is set in 1907 (according to newspapers you can buy), the first Redemption game is set in 1911. There are four years between Ross finding Beecher's Hope and John getting off the ferry in Blackwater at the start of RDR1.
And I already mentioned that the epilogue jumped a few years ahead. No reason they couldn't do that again.

During the credits was in same time frame? I don't buy that.
 

okayfrog

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,968
Credits rolling, and I gotta say something I'm sure others have said: I was disappointed by that final mission. It feels like the epilogue built up that Arthur did all he could at the end so those who were still able to live could get away from the life he was in. And then John almost gives all that up in the final mission, and Abigail's got no qualms with it. Like, I was supposed to feel pumped during the final mission, but all I wanted to do was send John back. I would have preferred if you had the option to decline going, and Sadie and Charles go -- no Dutch at the end, just Sadie taking out Micah and that's that.

Also: I wish pistols were good in this game -- or at least that I was good with pistols. It's like every other mission towards the end would start off with the character holding pistols, and I'd give it a shot and just get absolutely blasted.

EDIT: Looking through the thread, looks like I should have posted this in the OT, as this thread's pretty much dead.
 
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endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
Seems like other credits scenes (Sadie and Charles leaving, Rains Fall visiting the mountains above the former reservation, Tilly still pregnant) take place directly after the Epilogues (as evidenced by Tilly still being pregnant post-credits if you meet her then, and Rains Fall getting on the train after his visit), I think it's more likely the scene with Ross takes place in the same timeframe. Why did the nascent Bureau wait 4 years before using John to hunt down Dutch is unclear - maybe because he took some time to gather a new gang and starting to stir trouble again after the shootout at Mt. Hagen?
In RDR1 they make it clear that the mission to track down Dutch and his former gang is politically motivated, so I think it would be based on what Dutch was doing rather than John. I don't think John at the end of RDR2 is going back to his old ways unless it's in defence of his friends or family (as happens in RDR1).

Credits rolling, and I gotta say something I'm sure others have said: I was disappointed by that final mission. It feels like the epilogue built up that Arthur did all he could at the end so those who were still able to live could get away from the life he was in. And then John almost gives all that up in the final mission, and Abigail's got no qualms with it. Like, I was supposed to feel pumped during the final mission, but all I wanted to do was send John back. I would have preferred if you had the option to decline going, and Sadie and Charles go -- no Dutch at the end, just Sadie taking out Micah and that's that.
Abigail is very much against it. That whole situation is supposed to represent a moral quandary for John - Arthur insisted that he not look back and that revenge was a fool's game, but we also hear that John, Sadie and Charles swore an oath (just before they went their separate ways) that if Micah ever resurfaced they would kill him. They held him responsible for the deaths of Hosea, Lenny, Susan, and Arthur.

I think it's somewhat implied that the death of Micah and John's participation in it is what leads Ross back to him, and we know from RDR1 what the consequences are. But there's no avoiding that in RDR2, the future is already set in stone.
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
That's what it seems like. I just wish it could have been done better.
On the other hand, there's also the fact that he's openly living as John Marston in Blackwater. Even without John going to Strawberry, they probably would've come for him anyway once they decided to take down the former Sons of Dutch. It would've been the RDR1 ending, just without the rest of RDR1.

On the subject of names, I still don't understand why he applied for the loan as John Marston and used that name in Blackwater. He's a wanted man under that name, associated with a famous massacre in that same town, and his chief reference for the loan knows him as Jim Milton.

But that would be completely against his character though, wouldn't it? Him staying at home. It's been established throughout the entire epilogue that he just is that kind of person. Even in the very beginning, you hear Arthur's voice going "You need to pick being one person or the other. You can't be both at once.", or something to that effect. The entire epilogue is about the struggle between those two desires. One winning out over the other furthermore sets up the sequel to the game.

I don't think they could have done it any other way. And that they did it this way is proof to me that, yes, they purposefully meant for Arthur's sacrifice to ultimately be meaningless. Which, again, I'm pretty sure is the point of the entire thing: meaningless redemption wrought in blood and death.
Arthur's dream was for John to be with Jack and Abigail, and for them to have the sort of family life that nobody in the Son's of Dutch had ever been fortunate enough to have. You might argue that they did have that at Beecher's Hope though. Not forever, but for long enough. If John had skipped out on killing Micah, what would that have said about RDR1's Epilogue? There's a sort of poetry (and consistency) in history repeating.
 
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Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
Is it a bug that my second custom outfit disappeared from my horse? It's getting quite annoying.
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
Just finished the game and not a big fan of the ending I got, or really any of the endings. I had Micah kill Arthur. That piece of shit got the satisfaction of killing me.

And WTF Dutch? He really didn't believe anything Arthur was telling him in the end there with Micah being a rat, or I think he did believe just figured it's easier not to do anything about it. After everything Arthur did for him... What a piece of shit.

I just wish there was an ending where Arthur and Sadie escape and go out to some remote cabin and live their lives. Why do all the endings have to be so tragic lol.

Fuck Dutch and Micah
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
And I already mentioned that the epilogue jumped a few years ahead. No reason they couldn't do that again.

During the credits was in same time frame? I don't buy that.

*shrug*
At this point you're choosing to not believe that despite evidence, because you don't want to for some reason. That's hardly rational, but whatever floats your boat, dude.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
And I already mentioned that the epilogue jumped a few years ahead. No reason they couldn't do that again.

During the credits was in same time frame? I don't buy that.

Ross finding Marston's home is at the same time as the others credit scene.
First of, Ross still has his black moustache.
Second, Ross and the Bureau went and used John to make sure that the 1911 election for the state would go well for the guy they wanted people to vote for.
Can't do that in 1907.
 

Punpun

Alt account
Banned
Nov 24, 2018
206
Just finished the Epilogue. What a great game, man. Loved every second of it and the epilogue was a nice change of pace. The extra scenes during the credits were nice for closure. All time top 3 game for me personally.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,579
As someone mentioned earlier, the correct answer is because RDR1 came first and the characters of Sadie and Charles didn't exist at the time :)

Narratively, you might argue that because Charles and Sadie left the country they were not pursued... but Javier did the same, and yet obviously he was pursued.

Maybe it came down to whether they had bounties on their heads? We know that Dutch obviously did, Bill did (there's a random encounter where you have to free him from bounty hunters who've snatched him), and Javier did (we see his bounty poster in Shady Belle). We can assume that Sadie didn't, given her work as a bounty hunter and angry dealings with her rival bounty hunters (who surely would've turned her in if she was wanted). I don't know if Charles is mentioned as having one.

Charles and Sadie were obviously late comers to the group - Charles I think they say has been there for less than a year, and always argues restraint when he's working (so his jobs might have been a lot less messy, helping him fly under the radar). Sadie doesn't become an active member at all until after Rhodes.

The counterpoint to that would be that the Pinkertons knew about everyone in the gang from Micah and/or Molly, but in RDR1 it's not the Pinkertons who are driving things, it's a politician, and the politician would only be concerned with public opinion. Rounding up/killing a member of the gang who wasn't known to the public would serve no purpose, it's about rounding up the wanted criminals that everyone has heard about (i.e. important enough to merit bounties) to win favour with the public.

Alternatively, Charles and Sadie might have already died or been captured in the time between RDR2 finishing and RDR1 starting.


I don't think it's ever explicitly mentioned. When Micah first finds her she's in the cellar. She might have been hiding there (unlikely for Sadie lol), or maybe Jake locked her down there to keep her safe after he knew what was coming (also unlikely IMHO).

But when you do the revenge mission with Sadie to the O'Driscoll hideout in Chapter 6, she tells the final guy "I told you I'd see you again!" as she knifes him. She also says to Arthur "you know what they did to me" and "they turned me into a monster." Maybe she was just talking about losing Jake and her home burning down, but I think it's pretty heavily implied that it's more than that.

Yes, I finally finished Sadie's honor mission yesterday and there are the heavy implications you've mentioned...still feels a little like beating around the bush imo in a game that has no problems with explicit violence.
Especially considering how gung-ho Sadie is written you'd expect her to say something like "I'm going to kill all of those raping mfs"
I've also rewatched the early mission and Dutch never mentions it in front of the gang when they return to camp.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Just stumbled onto the house where the fat redneck and his sister are apparently incestuous swingers and cannibals.

I knew something was up and after having a singular drink I got up from the table, left, came back and gunned them both down.

Then I did a little scavenging and discovered their collection of human remains.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,902
Portland, OR
I'm glad that people have similar feeling about playing Arthur, I really love John and I enjoyed the epilogue but damn, I was surprised about how terrible I felt about not playing Arthur anymore, I love this dude damn... best rockstar character ever with Trevor.
One of the biggest issues in playing as John is that his whole arc in RDR2 is "I want to leave all the violence behind me and settle in to a quiet life of ranching." And then you do that, sans a couple bounty missions with Sadie and the final mission. So once you're given control after the credits roll, it feels wrong to say "OK, bye Abigail, I'ma go back to Saint Denis and wrap up some sidequests now." John's entire motivation is to be a good husband and father and that's completely incompatible with exploration and taking on other quests. Someone suggested that after the credits roll we should be given control of Sadie since she's under no such obligation, and that seems like a wildly better idea than what we get. Neither of them compare to Arthur, of course, but I felt downright guilty playing as John and deciding to wander across multiple states after telling my family I was done with that life; at least as Sadie we could be like "yeah, fuck it!" (not unlike Trevor, come to think of it)
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
Is it a bug that my second custom outfit disappeared from my horse? It's getting quite annoying.
This is the spoiler thread rather than the regular thread. But to answer your question, whatever your current custom outfit is won't be stored on your horse. So if you're wearing custom outfit one, custom outfit one won't actually be stored on the horse. If you then switch (via the horse) to a different outfit, you won't be able to switch back to custom outfit one.

There is one workaround though: when you first equip a saved custom outfit via your wardrobe, immediately change some minor aspect of it (e.g. add or remove gloves, etc.) so that the game now considers you to be wearing a different (and new) custom out fit. Then you'll be able to store that saved custom outfit on the horse.

One of the biggest issues in playing as John is that his whole arc in RDR2 is "I want to leave all the violence behind me and settle in to a quiet life of ranching." And then you do that, sans a couple bounty missions with Sadie and the final mission. So once you're given control after the credits roll, it feels wrong to say "OK, bye Abigail, I'ma go back to Saint Denis and wrap up some sidequests now." John's entire motivation is to be a good husband and father and that's completely incompatible with exploration and taking on other quests. Someone suggested that after the credits roll we should be given control of Sadie since she's under no such obligation, and that seems like a wildly better idea than what we get. Neither of them compare to Arthur, of course, but I felt downright guilty playing as John and deciding to wander across multiple states after telling my family I was done with that life; at least as Sadie we could be like "yeah, fuck it!" (not unlike Trevor, come to think of it)
Sadie is my favourite gang member, but one thing that would make a Sadie Epilogue quite tricky is the interchangeable Stranger missions with Arthur. Sadie is a great character, but as she herself points out, she hates people. That makes some of Arthur's Stranger missions really problematic if you try and shoehorn Sadie in, at least in my opinion, because they have quite different ways of relating to people. John is a much easier character to switch into those missions I think.
 

VaanXSnake

Banned
Jul 18, 2018
2,099
One of the biggest issues in playing as John is that his whole arc in RDR2 is "I want to leave all the violence behind me and settle in to a quiet life of ranching." And then you do that, sans a couple bounty missions with Sadie and the final mission. So once you're given control after the credits roll, it feels wrong to say "OK, bye Abigail, I'ma go back to Saint Denis and wrap up some sidequests now." John's entire motivation is to be a good husband and father and that's completely incompatible with exploration and taking on other quests. Someone suggested that after the credits roll we should be given control of Sadie since she's under no such obligation, and that seems like a wildly better idea than what we get. Neither of them compare to Arthur, of course, but I felt downright guilty playing as John and deciding to wander across multiple states after telling my family I was done with that life; at least as Sadie we could be like "yeah, fuck it!" (not unlike Trevor, come to think of it)

John is saying that he wants to become a good husband and father but every single decision he takes in the game prove the contrary, John is not a good guy and won't be for a long time, Saddie would have been ok I guess but I would have prefer the game to end after the deal passed with the agency and Johin beginning its crusade.
 

Mr X

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,210
Virginia / US
I'm glad that people have similar feeling about playing Arthur, I really love John and I enjoyed the epilogue but damn, I was surprised about how terrible I felt about not playing Arthur anymore, I love this dude damn... best rockstar character ever with Trevor.
Yeah, I decided to start over...playing as John just isn't nearly as satisfying as playing Arthur. I am sure there are a fair number of things I missed my first play through so, worth it to go through again. At first I was hesitant, but think it's the more enjoyable route as opposed to booting up a pre-end game chapter 6 mission. Also would be kinda of depressing to know you're so close to the end, knowing the result and the gang being in shambles in addition to Lenny, Hosea, Molly and Sean already dead.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
One of the biggest issues in playing as John is that his whole arc in RDR2 is "I want to leave all the violence behind me and settle in to a quiet life of ranching." And then you do that, sans a couple bounty missions with Sadie and the final mission. So once you're given control after the credits roll, it feels wrong to say "OK, bye Abigail, I'ma go back to Saint Denis and wrap up some sidequests now." John's entire motivation is to be a good husband and father and that's completely incompatible with exploration and taking on other quests. Someone suggested that after the credits roll we should be given control of Sadie since she's under no such obligation, and that seems like a wildly better idea than what we get. Neither of them compare to Arthur, of course, but I felt downright guilty playing as John and deciding to wander across multiple states after telling my family I was done with that life; at least as Sadie we could be like "yeah, fuck it!" (not unlike Trevor, come to think of it)
It's even worse when you factor in that you can go on insane killing sprees and rack up huge bounties while he's ostensibly "going clean"
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,902
Portland, OR
It's even worse when you factor in that you can go on insane killing sprees and rack up huge bounties while he's ostensibly "going clean"
One of the things I've noticed, replaying the game from the beginning, is that it feels a lot more natural to do some of the challenges and hunting/crafting stuff as early as possible in the game, because it feels perfectly natural for Arthur to be "a bad man" early on when we haven't had much chance to connect with him. Certainly by the time you get diagnosed, he's already lamenting his lot in life and looking for absolution, so it feels out of character to hold up shops or rob trains to meet some outstanding challenge. It's even more pronounced for John, swearing up and down he's a changed man and literally shoveling shit as a means to prove it. It just feels like the game is continually saying "we know you still have yet to steal 7 wagons and give them to the fence, but now your character absolutely doesn't want to do that," which ultimately makes me not want to try. Doing all that stuff in Chapter 2/3? That feels awesome. Fuck yeah I'll hold up 4 shops in a day; what could possibly go wrong? Doing it as John also belies his entire character arc from RDR1 where he is presented as someone who made a conscious choice to move away from that lifestyle.
 

Mr X

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,210
Virginia / US
Also, what was up with John's inability to properly argue at the Dutch/Micah stand off at the end. He was very stilted and odd in his arguments with Dutch. Not once did I remember him mentioning Micah being a rat and turning him (Dutch) against everyone and/or almost directly responsible for almost every bad thing that happened to the gang since Blackwater. I get he has a hard time with his son, but John "I Implore You" Marston seems just fine in normal conversation...with the exception of that scene.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
Also, what was up with John's inability to properly argue at the Dutch/Micah stand off at the end. He was very stilted and odd in his arguments with Dutch. Not once did I remember him mentioning Micah being a rat and turning him (Dutch) against everyone and/or almost directly responsible for almost every bad thing that happened to the gang since Blackwater. I get he has a hard time with his son, but John "I Implore You" Marston seems just fine in normal conversation...with the exception of that scene.
It is sort of part of John's character that he's pretty inarticulate and neither here nor there on his stance on everything. He's a simple man. I felt they did they pretty well.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,603
Also, what was up with John's inability to properly argue at the Dutch/Micah stand off at the end. He was very stilted and odd in his arguments with Dutch. Not once did I remember him mentioning Micah being a rat and turning him (Dutch) against everyone and/or almost directly responsible for almost every bad thing that happened to the gang since Blackwater. I get he has a hard time with his son, but John "I Implore You" Marston seems just fine in normal conversation...with the exception of that scene.

It happens alot in media in general, especially games where you have dozens of hours next to these characters were things should have come up. What the hell was stopping Arthur from laying down some truth SO MUCH sooner than that final standoff before the split in the final mission? It's fustrating, but it ultimately comes down to the writers didn't want to have to explain away those basic arguments (DONT TRUST THE ASSHOLE YOU BARELY KNOW OVER YOUR 20 YEAR BOND RIGHT HAND MAN). So many things can be avoided if characters had just fucking spoken up...but then the game wouldn't happen. It's just a narrative conciet.
 

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
A5iVaUz.gif
 

Stat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,169
Im nearing the end of the game. Man, I wish
Sadie. She was a lot of fun in the game and I kinda feel like we did the John Marston thing. Im also kinda sad that I won't get to play as Arthur ever again. He really grew on me
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,937
Austin, TX
Post game question

They showed Pearson working in a general store in those clips at the end..can I go to him and have him make me better satchels still or am I SOL? I figured the trapper would be able to make em but no dice I see.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,902
Portland, OR
Post game question

They showed Pearson working in a general store in those clips at the end..can I go to him and have him make me better satchels still or am I SOL? I figured the trapper would be able to make em but no dice I see.
You can just buy them at any Fence if you didn't have Pearson craft them. I don't believe you can still have them crafted after completing Chapter 6.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
Finally finished the game for real last night. This game was so damn long and uneven that I flip-flopped on it like six times over the course of it. I think I went through:

- Hated the game for the first twenty-ish hours because of the baroque controls and terribly restrictive mission design
+ Loved exploring the world at my own pace once I was set loose in Chapter 2, finding every interesting spot on the map and drinking in the environmental storytelling and random encounters
- Started getting really tired of the rote "ten minutes of horse riding then a shootout" mission design once I got back on the critical path in Chapter 2/3/4
+ Late Chapter 3/early Chapter 4 the story started picking up, some really memorable moments
- Chapter 5 was ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. Like, holy shit, 99% of it should have stayed on the cutting room floor.
+ Chapter 6 is a goddamn masterpiece from start to finish. What an incredible game. 10/10.
- "There's an epilogue? And it's John? And it's more slow-walking and talking? Oh boy..."
+ *RDR theme kicks in during the first big shootout of the epilogue and I struggle to shoot guys through my tears*

So I don't know what to say about this game overall. You have to play it, if only for the spectacle of what must be the most expensive game ever made. A new musical composition for seemingly every mission, an unending supply of bespoke content it just keeps throwing at you, a giant AAA open world that pulls the Pokemon Gold/Silver trick of, "Oh, by the way, the entire previous game was here the whole time, too". I think this is Rockstar's best story, without a doubt, and Arthur is one of the best characters in this entire medium. What kind of maniacs write a video game story where the strong, unstoppable player character gets tuberculosis and then just slowly, inevitably, dies? This game is going to stick with me for years.

And at the same time, the mission design is just so rote, so repetitive, so goddamn dull, and more often than not it feels like your presence as the player is just a nuisance and Rockstar would have preferred to just show you a 60 hour movie. I can't count the number of times I failed a mission instantly for not following the white text at the bottom of the screen to the letter, something that happened to me literally all the way through the game. I failed the final fight against Micah because I had the temerity to try and run out of cover and shoot him; silly me for assuming I was playing a video game bossfight, right? And that's to say nothing of certain ridiculous design decisions, like the automatic un-equipping of your weapons, the arcane fast-travel rules, and the straight up terrible character and combat controls.

Yeah, I don't know. It is undoubtedly one of the defining games of this generation while at the same time feeling like a dinosaur from the generation before, if not earlier. Nobody else makes games like this, for better and for worse. And Rockstar's culture seems to be so insular that I fully expect whatever their next game is in another ten years to be just as out of touch, but just as unmissable.
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
I don't think John's arc is so much wanting to go clean, as it is wanting be a good husband and good father. The conflict between that and his own nature is what makes the situation interesting though. He doesn't go clean because he thinks it's the best thing to do, he does it because it's what Abigail wants. And he does it for her.

In terms of the challenges and what some of them require of you, I think you could do all of that stuff after Abigail and Jack leave but before they return and still have it work in terms of the narrative: John being willing to do a few shady things in order to set them up for the simple life that he knows Abigail wants. That said, obviously the game elements are separate to the narrative and players can do whatever they want at the end of the day (and I think that's a positive rather than a negative).
 

VaanXSnake

Banned
Jul 18, 2018
2,099
I don't think John's arc is so much wanting to go clean, as it is wanting be a good husband and good father. The conflict between that and his own nature is what makes the situation interesting though. He doesn't go clean because he thinks it's the best thing to do, he does it because it's what Abigail wants. And he does it for her.

In terms of the challenges and what some of them require of you, I think you could do all of that stuff after Abigail and Jack leave but before they return and still have it work in terms of the narrative: John being willing to do a few shady things in order to set them up for the simple life that he knows Abigail wants. That said, obviously the game elements are separate to the narrative and players can do whatever they want at the end of the day (and I think that's a positive rather than a negative).

You said it better than me, I don't know why people think he wants to be a good guy when he basically shoot a man because he was staring at him and forced his family to move again.
 

Stat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,169
I visited the Amadillo town post-game, but obviously its pretty torn about. It was kinda cool riding and remembering certain routes. Is there any other reason to visit the rest of the old RDR1 map? Seems pretty barren, no?


You can also go find Pearson (Rhodes) but he just has the regular general store stuff for sale.

Who else can you interact with?

Is it possible to find the collectibles without a guide?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,902
Portland, OR
Finally finished the game for real last night. This game was so damn long and uneven that I flip-flopped on it like six times over the course of it. I think I went through:

- Hated the game for the first twenty-ish hours because of the baroque controls and terribly restrictive mission design
+ Loved exploring the world at my own pace once I was set loose in Chapter 2, finding every interesting spot on the map and drinking in the environmental storytelling and random encounters
- Started getting really tired of the rote "ten minutes of horse riding then a shootout" mission design once I got back on the critical path in Chapter 2/3/4
+ Late Chapter 3/early Chapter 4 the story started picking up, some really memorable moments
- Chapter 5 was ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. Like, holy shit, 99% of it should have stayed on the cutting room floor.
+ Chapter 6 is a goddamn masterpiece from start to finish. What an incredible game. 10/10.
- "There's an epilogue? And it's John? And it's more slow-walking and talking? Oh boy..."
+ *RDR theme kicks in during the first big shootout of the epilogue and I struggle to shoot guys through my tears*

So I don't know what to say about this game overall. You have to play it, if only for the spectacle of what must be the most expensive game ever made. A new musical composition for seemingly every mission, an unending supply of bespoke content it just keeps throwing at you, a giant AAA open world that pulls the Pokemon Gold/Silver trick of, "Oh, by the way, the entire previous game was here the whole time, too". I think this is Rockstar's best story, without a doubt, and Arthur is one of the best characters in this entire medium. What kind of maniacs write a video game story where the strong, unstoppable player character gets tuberculosis and then just slowly, inevitably, dies? This game is going to stick with me for years.

And at the same time, the mission design is just so rote, so repetitive, so goddamn dull, and more often than not it feels like your presence as the player is just a nuisance and Rockstar would have preferred to just show you a 60 hour movie. I can't count the number of times I failed a mission instantly for not following the white text at the bottom of the screen to the letter, something that happened to me literally all the way through the game. I failed the final fight against Micah because I had the temerity to try and run out of cover and shoot him; silly me for assuming I was playing a video game bossfight, right? And that's to say nothing of certain ridiculous design decisions, like the automatic un-equipping of your weapons, the arcane fast-travel rules, and the straight up terrible character and combat controls.

Yeah, I don't know. It is undoubtedly one of the defining games of this generation while at the same time feeling like a dinosaur from the generation before, if not earlier. Nobody else makes games like this, for better and for worse. And Rockstar's culture seems to be so insular that I fully expect whatever their next game is in another ten years to be just as out of touch, but just as unmissable.
I kind of agree with you, but mostly don't. My biggest complaints about the game are virtually everything that it tries to do to feel videogame-y (crafting, challenges, some of the mission design) are really poor in comparison to the complete package. I actually loved the first chapter (the glorified tutorial, which basically describes chapter 2 as well, since the game spends SO MUCH TIME teaching you everything that's in it), but I get that it feels interminable when you're starting off for the first time and you just want to explore this incredible world that Rockstar has created (it doesn't help that I started this at the same time as Spider-Man which has you in a boss fight in the first 30 minutes). I also actually liked Chapter 5, even when my immediate thought upon entering it was "Rockstar just decided to do Uncharted" (a game series that I haven't actually played, FWIW). The change of pace is some strange combination of ridiculous, off-putting and poorly conceived, but I'll be damned if I didn't actually appreciate it after the events of Chapter 4 that robbed us of Sean, Hosea and LENNY!, three of the best members of the gang. And, let's be fair, Chapter 5 was not entirely Guarma; it's also where you get the diagnosis, which is a damn touching moment. Chapter 6 more than makes up for the uneven pacing of Chapter 5 at any rate (as you said).

It is a flawed masterpiece, but I can think of few games that have had such a deep emotional connection for me. For that, I am willing to overlook some shit controls (which I think are overstated as far as "bad" goes, but the input lag is real and inexcusable) and boring mission design. The complete misfire of the challenges and crafting is actually the biggest issue I have with the game. I did very little of either on my first playthrough and it didn't matter at all. I'm doing more of it my second playthrough and it comes across as something that was selected by someone who had never played the game, or perhaps any videogame in history before. It's absurd that you have a challenge to kill 4 people in a row with the same thrown tomahawk prior to getting 15 kills with a shotgun. That's literally one of the stupidest fucking things I have seen in any videogame in history. It makes me mad to even think about how stupid this is. And why in the name of anything is the highest stakes poker you can play in this half as much as the lowest stakes table in RDR1? That's infuriatingly stupid. And I can still forgive this complete idiocy because the overall experience is so singular, so exceptional, so brilliant.

And while you didn't mention it, I have to say, everything about the graphics continues to impress. I can't wait to play the (hopefully inevitable) PC port. Call me a sucker for graphics, because I absolutely am, but damned if this game doesn't strike an emotional chord solely through how beautiful it is to look at. Just... wow. The first time I played through the mission where Charles and Arthur ride off to find a new camp so the gang can flee Valentine, I happened to have it happen directly prior to sunrise, and there's a low fog hanging over the lake and there's the faintest outline of a rainbow visible dependent on the angle you look through the fog at... I have never seen anything comparable in any game I have ever played. It is utterly breathtaking, and it's nowhere close to the best vista I have seen in the game. This game does atmosphere better than any videogame and most movies I've seen. It's just exceptional.
 

TrainerRed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
130
Snake Way
About Karen.
Be careful, all this message is spoiler about the end, you assume the responsibility if you read and did not complete the game.

When the game ends, epilogue included, the final credits let us see small seconds that show us the future of each character, even appearing after the credits by the map where you can talk to them (examples like Tilly or Pearson).
But for a strange reason Rockstar forgot two characters that are not shown or mentioned in any way, these are seen for the last time in chapter 6, Trelawny and Karen.

We know nothing about them. Although Trelawny is less mysterious because he could talk to Arthur before leaving, but Karen does not even talk to us before leaving. She only appears drunk and wandering during episode 6 but does not say goodbye, Dutch does not even say Karen's name when he talks about people leaving the camp (he names Mary Beth, Pearson ... but not Karen). Rockstar has forgotten about it and I find it very strange because Rockstar takes care of every last detail and it has only been very forgotten one person, Karen, it's strange.

I know Tilly writes a letter where she mentions that Karen may have died due to alcohol, but she is not sure. But if this is your end, is not it unfair? It would be the only person in the band to die after Arthur's events without knowing what happened to his old friends like Arthur himself, John, Mary Beth ...

All the secondary characters like Pearson or Tilly meet again with Jhon and can know that it happened days after they left the camp directly from Jhon's words, but Karen will die without knowing what happened with her companions and without anyone Say it, alone in the desert dying without knowing that it belonged to his companions. They should have given the same treatment as Tilly, Mary Beth or Pearson, that she could reunite with Jhon so she could hear what happened to everyone, although she ends up dying for alcohol time after meeting Marston again.

It can not be a coincidence that Rockstar casually forgot about a single character in that way, there has to be an explanation. In addition to being with Sadie the most Badass women of the Dutch gang, even helping in strategies and always happy and singing. A happy woman that for some strange reason Rockstar forgot and is unfair, it is unfair to the image of the courageous woman to forget such a character. Nobody asks Rockstar about this? Why did not I leave a way for Karen to also know the fate of her old friends from Jhon's words?

The game does incredibly well with Sadie, but I do not understand the unfair treatment of Karen.

It would be great if you had answers to if you really get to know something about Karen or if we will know in the future. Or if Rockstar has declared something or is going to be asked about this. I await answers, thanks.
 

Deleted member 23908

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
773
Finally finished the epilogues, they were my favourite part of the game I loved every second of it. I hope rockstar make dlc where we get to play as John throughout the main story with his own missions and stuff to see what he went through while Arthur is doing his own thing.
 

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
Should really start using the sawed-off. Was my main weapon in the first game but I've basically never used it at all in this game. Pump-action swept me away.

Why not use both the sawed-off and the pump-action? That's what I've generally been rolling with. :P
 

James Darmody

Member
Nov 22, 2018
191
Finally finished the game for real last night. This game was so damn long and uneven that I flip-flopped on it like six times over the course of it. I think I went through:

- Hated the game for the first twenty-ish hours because of the baroque controls and terribly restrictive mission design
+ Loved exploring the world at my own pace once I was set loose in Chapter 2, finding every interesting spot on the map and drinking in the environmental storytelling and random encounters
- Started getting really tired of the rote "ten minutes of horse riding then a shootout" mission design once I got back on the critical path in Chapter 2/3/4
+ Late Chapter 3/early Chapter 4 the story started picking up, some really memorable moments
- Chapter 5 was ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. Like, holy shit, 99% of it should have stayed on the cutting room floor.
+ Chapter 6 is a goddamn masterpiece from start to finish. What an incredible game. 10/10.
- "There's an epilogue? And it's John? And it's more slow-walking and talking? Oh boy..."
+ *RDR theme kicks in during the first big shootout of the epilogue and I struggle to shoot guys through my tears*

So I don't know what to say about this game overall. You have to play it, if only for the spectacle of what must be the most expensive game ever made. A new musical composition for seemingly every mission, an unending supply of bespoke content it just keeps throwing at you, a giant AAA open world that pulls the Pokemon Gold/Silver trick of, "Oh, by the way, the entire previous game was here the whole time, too". I think this is Rockstar's best story, without a doubt, and Arthur is one of the best characters in this entire medium. What kind of maniacs write a video game story where the strong, unstoppable player character gets tuberculosis and then just slowly, inevitably, dies? This game is going to stick with me for years.

And at the same time, the mission design is just so rote, so repetitive, so goddamn dull, and more often than not it feels like your presence as the player is just a nuisance and Rockstar would have preferred to just show you a 60 hour movie. I can't count the number of times I failed a mission instantly for not following the white text at the bottom of the screen to the letter, something that happened to me literally all the way through the game. I failed the final fight against Micah because I had the temerity to try and run out of cover and shoot him; silly me for assuming I was playing a video game bossfight, right? And that's to say nothing of certain ridiculous design decisions, like the automatic un-equipping of your weapons, the arcane fast-travel rules, and the straight up terrible character and combat controls.

Yeah, I don't know. It is undoubtedly one of the defining games of this generation while at the same time feeling like a dinosaur from the generation before, if not earlier. Nobody else makes games like this, for better and for worse. And Rockstar's culture seems to be so insular that I fully expect whatever their next game is in another ten years to be just as out of touch, but just as unmissable.

Great post.
 

Auctopus

Self-requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,073
Finally finished the game for real last night. This game was so damn long and uneven that I flip-flopped on it like six times over the course of it. I think I went through:

- Hated the game for the first twenty-ish hours because of the baroque controls and terribly restrictive mission design
+ Loved exploring the world at my own pace once I was set loose in Chapter 2, finding every interesting spot on the map and drinking in the environmental storytelling and random encounters
- Started getting really tired of the rote "ten minutes of horse riding then a shootout" mission design once I got back on the critical path in Chapter 2/3/4
+ Late Chapter 3/early Chapter 4 the story started picking up, some really memorable moments
- Chapter 5 was ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. Like, holy shit, 99% of it should have stayed on the cutting room floor.
+ Chapter 6 is a goddamn masterpiece from start to finish. What an incredible game. 10/10.
- "There's an epilogue? And it's John? And it's more slow-walking and talking? Oh boy..."
+ *RDR theme kicks in during the first big shootout of the epilogue and I struggle to shoot guys through my tears*

So I don't know what to say about this game overall. You have to play it, if only for the spectacle of what must be the most expensive game ever made. A new musical composition for seemingly every mission, an unending supply of bespoke content it just keeps throwing at you, a giant AAA open world that pulls the Pokemon Gold/Silver trick of, "Oh, by the way, the entire previous game was here the whole time, too". I think this is Rockstar's best story, without a doubt, and Arthur is one of the best characters in this entire medium. What kind of maniacs write a video game story where the strong, unstoppable player character gets tuberculosis and then just slowly, inevitably, dies? This game is going to stick with me for years.

And at the same time, the mission design is just so rote, so repetitive, so goddamn dull, and more often than not it feels like your presence as the player is just a nuisance and Rockstar would have preferred to just show you a 60 hour movie. I can't count the number of times I failed a mission instantly for not following the white text at the bottom of the screen to the letter, something that happened to me literally all the way through the game. I failed the final fight against Micah because I had the temerity to try and run out of cover and shoot him; silly me for assuming I was playing a video game bossfight, right? And that's to say nothing of certain ridiculous design decisions, like the automatic un-equipping of your weapons, the arcane fast-travel rules, and the straight up terrible character and combat controls.

Yeah, I don't know. It is undoubtedly one of the defining games of this generation while at the same time feeling like a dinosaur from the generation before, if not earlier. Nobody else makes games like this, for better and for worse. And Rockstar's culture seems to be so insular that I fully expect whatever their next game is in another ten years to be just as out of touch, but just as unmissable.

Great post - largely agree with you.

- Chapter 5 is the most bizarre pacing/narrative choice and when you get to Chapter 6 has almost virtually no impact on the over-arching story.
- However, I did like the fast-travel mechanics as they were built in to the world. Usually in an open-world game I never fast travel in my first playthrough but I liked the short cutscene of Arthur getting ready for a long trip etc. What I didn't like was how each mission-giver in Chapter 6 is miles away from each other and where you end each mission and there's no fast travel points between them.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
And while you didn't mention it, I have to say, everything about the graphics continues to impress. I can't wait to play the (hopefully inevitable) PC port. Call me a sucker for graphics, because I absolutely am, but damned if this game doesn't strike an emotional chord solely through how beautiful it is to look at. Just... wow. The first time I played through the mission where Charles and Arthur ride off to find a new camp so the gang can flee Valentine, I happened to have it happen directly prior to sunrise, and there's a low fog hanging over the lake and there's the faintest outline of a rainbow visible dependent on the angle you look through the fog at... I have never seen anything comparable in any game I have ever played. It is utterly breathtaking, and it's nowhere close to the best vista I have seen in the game. This game does atmosphere better than any videogame and most movies I've seen. It's just exceptional.

Oh, absolutely. This game feels like it just arrived here from space in some respects; that thing it does with the air looking so thick and light sources shining through it diffusing the way they do? Nothing else looks like that. I took over a gigabyte's worth of screenshots on my PS4 as I played this game. Every now and then you see a character's face that doesn't quite hold up, but that's the only point against it; it just looks incredible overall.

- However, I did like the fast-travel mechanics as they were built in to the world. Usually in an open-world game I never fast travel in my first playthrough but I liked the short cutscene of Arthur getting ready for a long trip etc. What I didn't like was how each mission-giver in Chapter 6 is miles away from each other and where you end each mission and there's no fast travel points between them.

Yeah, that's exactly what ended up getting to me. I don't mind a more sparing approach to fast-travel, because it does certainly keep you more grounded in that world and expose you to more of the random encounters and environmental storytelling, but this is a long game, and at a certain point you're going on ten minute horse rides just to accept a mission which is almost definitely going to begin with another ten minutes of horse-riding. I think certain small tweaks like being able to Fast Travel from your pop up camp like you could in RDR1, and being able to Fast Travel back to the main camp rather than just away from it, would have gone a long way. A few more Stagecoach points around the world, too; there's nothing in the whole northwest quadrant, for example.
 

SJRB

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
4,861
Epilogue should've been Sadie. They could even keep John's segments in, only from Sadie's point of view.

John has the "been there, done that" feel. After the credits rolled, I played with John for about an hour until I decided to boot up an earlier save and just return to Arthur.
 

Pickleslips

Member
Jan 25, 2018
464
Just finished it and loved it. The epilogue slog was kinda shit but kind of enjoyable. John Marsden sucks, Arthur was great, the gameplay was frustrating and the music with lyrics were garbage (the fuck was that steaming shit that played as Arthur rode back to camp for the confrontation).

But as a whole, a great game.

Dang these credits go forever.
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
But for a strange reason Rockstar forgot two characters that are not shown or mentioned in any way, these are seen for the last time in chapter 6, Trelawny and Karen.
I was thinking that we might see them again in Online, but Online is set before RDR2 so even that wouldn't really work.

Trelawny isn't really a proper member of the gang, and he has his own little leaving cutscene with Arthur so there's no unfinished business there. But Karen is obviously a mainstay if the camp (even working guard duty) so it's weird not to get some finality there.
 

hobdal

Member
Mar 1, 2018
209
Finished it a few days ago, I think Arthur became my favourite character in anything ever by the end. I got the "good" ending and man, watching him look out at the sunset and breathe out, then waiting for him to breathe in again and.... nothing. Whole scene was really well handled I think.

I really want to go for 100% but I've found myself playing other stuff because I don't like playing as John, I wish Rockstar went with the multiple characters from GTA V for the post game and we could switch between Sadie and John as we liked.