Yeah...even if they ignored the movies, Picard was always a mentor to Data on the ways of humanity. So much Shakespeare on the holodeck. They were definitely good friends, though I think the movies and the new show always wanted them to be akin to Kirk and Spock, which really doesn't fit the characters.
yeah just got to when they started bitching about politics in star trek and rich whining in particular about 'why can't we agree racism is ooooveeeeer.' and particularly for a country that seemed to be moving forward in this direction, it moved back about ten feet in the span of three years. sci-fi should explore our anxieties.Yeah...even if they ignored the movies, Picard was always a mentor to Data on the ways of humanity. So much Shakespeare on the holodeck. They were definitely good friends, though I think the movies and the new show always wanted them to be akin to Kirk and Spock, which really doesn't fit the characters.
Man, Rich really loves his post racial utopia too much, without exploring the logistics to get there. He basically wants his golden-age Federation back without reflecting on whether it was 1.) sustainable (it wasn't, was cracking at the seams from the very beginning) or 2.) truly was a utopia for the people who inhabited it (it wasn't, and the plight of the marginalized even within the Federation was a major focus of so many great episodes). He basically wants cozy fantasy, not science-fiction. And it's so strange for them to be praising Gene so much when TNG only became consistently great when it stepped out from his outdated vision.
Is Picard the show that will usher in more optimistic sci-fiction? I don't know yet. But I think Picard the character on a journey to remind the Federation of its lost ways and to hopefully a better future is by far the most compelling aspect of the show. It's a shame they can't see that.
It's apparently a tiny little line slipped into the Federation Charter (under "section 31"), hiding in plain sight basically, which says that the Federation has the right to protect itself, therefore it has the right to have a super-secret police force, answerable to nobody (not even the Federation President), running black ops. They apparently do all kinds of nasty and deplorable shit to keep the Federation happy and blissfully ignorant.
Of course TOS, TNG, etc covered politics, that goes without saying: however they didn't lay it on thickly with a trowel across whole seasons; instead it was limited to a few episodes and, sometimes, a few lines of dialog in an episode. What STP sppears to be doing is making a whole season, if not a whole series, based on politics and a gloomy future. Trek used to be fairly optimistic, they were in space and they explored, they encountered new lifeforms and so on, but the series wasn't, on the whole, dreary and depressing. By all means address current politics in STP, but don't make a whole series on the issues.yeah just got to when they started bitching about politics in star trek and rich whining in particular about 'why can't we agree racism is ooooveeeeer.' and particularly for a country that seemed to be moving forward in this direction, it moved back about ten feet in the span of three years. sci-fi should explore our anxieties.
Indeed it is.
Why? There's Star Trek in the title. That brings certain expectations to the table.
If you (Rich, not you) flatly reject the premise why even have the discussion or even watch the show?
If he's going to whine about the politics of nuTrek, then he might as well put effort into breaking down why this specific execution is or isn't hokey and bad, instead of just complaining that it's not what he wanted.
To be honest I feel that especially in this day and age Star Trek's original style and message is more relevant than ever before. It would serve as a beacon of inspiration and hope for humanity. As others have said, dystopian sci-fi is everywhere. Star Trek should be different in my opinion.Star Trek was always political. TOS was filled with blunt political allegories (culminating in The Undiscovered Country), and so much of TNG was political--interstellar dealings with other powers, treaties and negotiations all up everywhere, exploring social justice issues of the day (sometimes clumsily). It's just the politics of those times was cozy and compatible with us, perhaps in hindsight, taking the form of counterculture, anti-war stories, then later replaced by Cold War stories of good versus evil. How lovely it was for the viewer to be invited up to the bridge of the gleaming flagship that espoused our values outwards towards the uncivilized and the ignorant. How bright the light.
I think the episodic nature of those two series helped provide some variety and levity. But it's silly to judge a show for its structure rather than how it executes its themes and stories within that structure. Yet even within TNG there is also a take out there that Picard and the Enterprise was increasingly alone in upholding those utopian Federation values. How many times did he brandish his speech to admonish not only other alien cultures, but towards Federation officers and officials who were engaged in cover-ups or secret dealings? (Here. Here. Here. Mike's not the only person who can do this.)
What Rich wants, it seems to me, is to not only to feel good again, but to feel the same type of good as an escape. (They make fun of fanboys, but man I was struck by one shot of Rich going that's not MY Star Trek, which is basically who they are always making fun of). That shouldn't happen IMO, given what happened in-universe. A Borg attack which shook an unprepared Starfleet out of its complacency. The fallout effects on Federation citizens after the Cardassian war. A war with the Dominion that cost millions of lives and have far-ranging effects. Multiple natural disasters in neighbouring powers leading to mass migration. Things can't and shouldn't go back to the way they were. Change is and should be always be happening in any lived-in world, fictional or not. How Federation society might retreat inwards might be an ugly thing, but one that is very realistic and relevant.
If Picard can illustrate the struggle one principled and deeply moral man has to affect positive change on a disillusioned society that has lost its way, wouldn't that be the best type of story to tell in this day and age? The best TOS and TNG stories tapped into the cultural zeitgeist of their respective times; whether Picard can do this I sincerely doubt (I do agree with them about Kurtzman's influence), but the attempt itself might lead to new science fiction stories, stories about finding light in times of darkness, which I think is a very good and necessary thing.
Agreed. My mother (the biggest Trekkie and especially TNG fangirl I know) actually seems to like the new direction, but she agreed with me when we talked about the episode that too much cynicism or dystopia could completely break the show under its own weight.To be honest I feel that especially in this day and age Star Trek's original style and message is more relevant than ever before. It would serve as a beacon of inspiration and hope for humanity. As others have said, dystopian sci-fi is everywhere. Star Trek should be different in my opinion.
I don't think the original TOS style and messaging work anymore. Post-racial and post-civil rights attitudes are problematic in how they gloss over real struggles. (DS9 knew this and devoted episodes and characters to address this.) Things are NOT rosy and pretending that they are runs contrary to the narrative of our times and for the hopeful future we seek to envision. Gene's views were arguably refreshing for their time, but they faltered terribly even by the 80's and 90's. Being nostalgic about the good old days flies against in the spirit of Star Trek and doesn't really work other than as an escape (which is fine if you want your science-fiction to be fantasy)To be honest I feel that especially in this day and age Star Trek's original style and message is more relevant than ever before. It would serve as a beacon of inspiration and hope for humanity. As others have said, dystopian sci-fi is everywhere. Star Trek should be different in my opinion.
The Fistful of Datas shot was Mike playing around. He suggested that Data and Picard had a businesslike relationship, while Data and everyone else had friendships. So he showed clips of Data and Picard acting businesslike, and clips of Data and everyone else playing around. But then, since Mike is Mike, he also had to show clips of Data trying to murder everyone. Because that's funny.This is a pretty bad episode. Maybe I'm getting tired of RLM, not even for the usual Resetera reasons so much as the overbearing cynicism.
They show a bunch of clips (mostly from the weaker early parts of the show) to prove that Picard and Data aren't friends. Well, with a series of out-of-context clips I can "prove" that Picard is an unlikable asshole who's too demanding of the people under him with out-of-context clips, or that Spock is an overemotional hothead. (What's with the Fistful of Datas shot anyway?) There are so many episodes of TNG where Data and Picard discuss philosophy, music, Shakespeare, etc. And Data dies sacrificing himself to save Picard, as he mentions.
But right here you’re also using the Picard in the movies (Generations) to justify one side of Picard while also saying the movies in general had a Picard out of character. I know that’s a common criticism of the movie Picard, but I’m one of those who believes we can’t ignore what happened in the movies either when looking at Picard’s character as a whole.The Fistful of Datas shot was Mike playing around. He suggested that Data and Picard had a businesslike relationship, while Data and everyone else had friendships. So he showed clips of Data and Picard acting businesslike, and clips of Data and everyone else playing around. But then, since Mike is Mike, he also had to show clips of Data trying to murder everyone. Because that's funny.
IMO, I think I agree with what Mike and Rich were trying to say there. Picard's a nice guy, and he wasn't doing anything better, so I could totally see him picking up a cause and fighting to protect this troubled girl (who also happens to be Data's daughter), but it's a bit much to suggest that Picard is having daily dreams about Data's death, 20 years after-the-fact (and that he doesn't want to wake up, because he doesn't want Data to really be gone). Even if we add the caveat of it being the 10-year anniversary of "Data's race" (?) being wiped out.
Picard as a Captain was always businesslike and professional and detached (with everyone, not just Data). It was a thing in the final episode of the series that he finally loosened up a little and allowed himself to connect emotionally with his shipmates. And then the movies (with their "two Picards" syndrome) tried to imply that Picard and Data had always had a Kirk/Spock relationship. I never really bought that. Data and Geordi were friends, followed by Data and everyone else, followed by Data and Picard.
And it's not like Picard hasn't lost people under his command before. Jack Crusher was apparently Picard's best friend, until he was killed under Picard's command. Tasha Yar too. The Romulans even set Picard against Tasha's Romulan daughter, and Picard's like "I'm not sure what you're hoping to gain from this. Confusion? Distraction? But whatever it is, it's not going to work." And it didn't work. Picard's judgement wasn't impaired in the slightest.
Picard never really let himself have a life, which was part of why he was upset about his brother's family dying, because knowing his brother had a family gave him permission to forego having a family and to chase his career, but when they died, it brought Picard's failure in life into focus. And so, Data sacrifices his own life to save Picard's life, and I could see that messing Picard up. Picard needs to have a life now, he owes at least that much to Data, but he doesn't know how to live a real life. I could see that putting Picard into his vineyard retirement situation. But the show gave Picard other reasons to return to the vineyard (the fall of the Federation), and made Data's death have an even bigger impact on Picard.
It's not a dealbreaker for me, it's just something that's worth pointing out. And it (the question of "Why is Data's death impacting Picard so heavily?") is something that maybe the show could explore more in the future. But I don't expect they will. Just like I don't expect them to realistically pull the Federation back from this "Trump's America" dystopia they have shoved it into.
I think you and other like RLM are exaggerating, with just one episode into PIC, what happened with the Romulan rescue armada. The Federation clearly agreed with Picard at first to help the Romulans, but the point of this show is to tell the story of why that didn’t happened. “The unthinkable” as the interviewer said and something that tested the Federation’s ideals.
You should start watching Star Trek, and then you can vlog about it on Youtube and make some extra pocket change. Trekkies love watching non-trekkies experience Trek for the first time (kind of true of all fanbases really, but trekkies are huge, so there's more money to be made around them).
Just to say, I get why Picard was affected by what happened to the Romulans (he was on the front lines of diplomatic bridge-building there, for pretty much the entire series, and he made a lot of good progress). I don't get anything about the Synths or how that relates to Picard/Mars/the Romulans, or why Romulans are trying to capture/kill Synths (just basic revenge, maybe?), because that's just a big black hole of stuff that hasn't been explained.But I don’t see Picard being affected by Data’s death to the degree we see in the first episode of Picard, to be very out of character. Especially if we do take the events of First Contact and Nemesis as an important part of Picard’s life. He never actually says Data and him were the best of friends, but it’s not a stretch to Picard to be deeply affected in the first episode of “Picard” by Data’s death and by what happened to the Synths, Romulus, etc.