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RedLetterMedia |OT| Very Cruel.
- Thread starter Skiptastic
- Start date
Ehh, that's how the name is commonly announced tbf, even if it isn't for him
5 minutes in, and these two seem to forget that Data sacrificed himself to save Picard, and maybe JUST MAYBE, that's why he has strong feelings for him.
im only like 19 minutes in the video and my take is that star trek has always shown that a bunch, i dunno if i'd go with a majority, of at least the admirals and some of the super low people were racist and assholes (usually to make an example out of them for the episode so we could all learn something)
so im not saying picard wasnt poorly written (i dunno i haven't seen it) but if you told me there was some future where starfleet went super racist facist i could definitely see the path there, which they seem super offended about
so im not saying picard wasnt poorly written (i dunno i haven't seen it) but if you told me there was some future where starfleet went super racist facist i could definitely see the path there, which they seem super offended about
Yeah...even if they ignored the movies, Picard was always a mentor to Data on the ways of humanity. So much Shakespeare on the holodeck. They were definitely good friends, though I think the movies and the new show always wanted them to be akin to Kirk and Spock, which really doesn't fit the characters.
Man, Rich really loves his post racial utopia too much, without exploring the logistics to get there. He basically wants his golden-age Federation back without reflecting on whether it was 1.) sustainable (it wasn't, was cracking at the seams from the very beginning) or 2.) truly was a utopia for the people who inhabited it (it wasn't, and the plight of the marginalized even within the Federation was a major focus of so many great episodes). He basically wants cozy fantasy, not science-fiction. And it's so strange for them to be praising Gene so much when TNG only became consistently great when it stepped out from his outdated vision.
Is Picard the show that will usher in more optimistic sci-fiction? I don't know yet. But I think Picard the character on a journey to remind the Federation of its lost ways and to hopefully a better future is by far the most compelling aspect of the show. It's a shame they can't see that.
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yeah just got to when they started bitching about politics in star trek and rich whining in particular about 'why can't we agree racism is ooooveeeeer.' and particularly for a country that seemed to be moving forward in this direction, it moved back about ten feet in the span of three years. sci-fi should explore our anxieties.
he did the same thing on a stream with jack about how he doesn't agree with people thinking wonder woman being a successful film is a big deal, because didn't women already have their breakthrough into the mainstream? jack semi-corrected him fortunately, pointing out 'well maybe they don't feel that it is the case yet and that's why they're happy it did well.'
rich, jay, and mike all live in the comfort of their bubble, but rich in particular really doesn't see the position of privilege he enjoys.
I liked the Picard pilot so far but I also agree with the rather critical re:view of it. I just let it slide as it had to work with the bad canon of the films and ST 2009 stuff (that first reboot film wasn´t bad btw). But man, Mike knows his shit. And lol at the ST Reddit for not allowing this on there. What a joke.
DS9 is my favorite ST show due to how well it maneuvered its moral ambiguity but all the content past 2009 was horrendous about that aspect of Trek.
I don´t even hate STD or anything but S02 was a chore in parts due to the conflicting directions so here is hope that we have a game plan and time for one-off episodes with Picard.
PS: I gave the Nerd Crew another shot and watch the comparison videos to what they were aping and like it now. I just hated Collider and co so much that even parodies triggered me. The Nerd Crew outlived the Jedi Council. Lol.
DS9 is my favorite ST show due to how well it maneuvered its moral ambiguity but all the content past 2009 was horrendous about that aspect of Trek.
I don´t even hate STD or anything but S02 was a chore in parts due to the conflicting directions so here is hope that we have a game plan and time for one-off episodes with Picard.
PS: I gave the Nerd Crew another shot and watch the comparison videos to what they were aping and like it now. I just hated Collider and co so much that even parodies triggered me. The Nerd Crew outlived the Jedi Council. Lol.
I feel like they're right in that this story would make more sense if it was called Geordi, particularly if Data is the focus of it.
That and the Fox News segment really did seem out of place, particularly considering the Romulans sided with the Federation during the Dominion War if nothing else.
That and the Fox News segment really did seem out of place, particularly considering the Romulans sided with the Federation during the Dominion War if nothing else.
It's apparently a tiny little line slipped into the Federation Charter (under "section 31"), hiding in plain sight basically, which says that the Federation has the right to protect itself, therefore it has the right to have a super-secret police force, answerable to nobody (not even the Federation President), running black ops. They apparently do all kinds of nasty and deplorable shit to keep the Federation happy and blissfully ignorant.
They were first seen in Deep Space Nine, and then in Enterprise (predating the Federation), and I think they were also in the JJ Abrams movies and Star Trek Discovery. Because modern writers love getting dark and pissing on Gene Roddenberry's utopian ideals.
I do have to agree with them that the Federation abandoning the Romulans, even after this Android uprising seemed really out of place and wrong to me, but who knows maybe we'll get more about that later this season.
Of course TOS, TNG, etc covered politics, that goes without saying: however they didn't lay it on thickly with a trowel across whole seasons; instead it was limited to a few episodes and, sometimes, a few lines of dialog in an episode. What STP sppears to be doing is making a whole season, if not a whole series, based on politics and a gloomy future. Trek used to be fairly optimistic, they were in space and they explored, they encountered new lifeforms and so on, but the series wasn't, on the whole, dreary and depressing. By all means address current politics in STP, but don't make a whole series on the issues.
This is a pretty bad episode. Maybe I'm getting tired of RLM, not even for the usual Resetera reasons so much as the overbearing cynicism.
They show a bunch of clips (mostly from the weaker early parts of the show) to prove that Picard and Data aren't friends. Well, with a series of out-of-context clips I can "prove" that Picard is an unlikable asshole who's too demanding of the people under him with out-of-context clips, or that Spock is an overemotional hothead. (What's with the Fistful of Datas shot anyway?) There are so many episodes of TNG where Data and Picard discuss philosophy, music, Shakespeare, etc. And Data dies sacrificing himself to save Picard, as he mentions.
Undiscovered Country is a thing guys. The Federation or at least some people in them were so prejudiced against Klingons that they conspired to assassinate the Klingon peacemaker and framed Kirk for it (who was also prejudiced against Klingons, though to be fair he has some real trauma behind it). Roddenberry, whose vision became rather extreme in later years, fought against this. Also, while the details are still hazy it seems the Federation was still willing to do it until a catastrophic attack close to earth.
They show a bunch of clips (mostly from the weaker early parts of the show) to prove that Picard and Data aren't friends. Well, with a series of out-of-context clips I can "prove" that Picard is an unlikable asshole who's too demanding of the people under him with out-of-context clips, or that Spock is an overemotional hothead. (What's with the Fistful of Datas shot anyway?) There are so many episodes of TNG where Data and Picard discuss philosophy, music, Shakespeare, etc. And Data dies sacrificing himself to save Picard, as he mentions.
Undiscovered Country is a thing guys. The Federation or at least some people in them were so prejudiced against Klingons that they conspired to assassinate the Klingon peacemaker and framed Kirk for it (who was also prejudiced against Klingons, though to be fair he has some real trauma behind it). Roddenberry, whose vision became rather extreme in later years, fought against this. Also, while the details are still hazy it seems the Federation was still willing to do it until a catastrophic attack close to earth.
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Indeed it is.
I'd like to point out that in ST6 the Federation as whole pushed for a peace treaty with the Klingon Empire instead of using the crippling blow dealt to it by the explosion of Qo'noS's moon to steam roll them. The only way anybody tried to stop it was through clandestine means that clearly went against everything the main governing body wanted.
And this attempt was stopped.
And the Khitomer Accords were signed.
Nobody went "oh a conspiracy that was in part backed by a warmongering Klingon faction? treaty's off, kids"
Instead here we have the Federation officially abandoning the whole rescue effort after some unrelated setbacks and we are provided by a FoxNN anchor unsubtly insinuating that Picard was an idiot for even attempting it in the first place.
That's not Star Trek and fuck that shit.
I get Rich's frustration that nobody at the helm wants to write an inspiring Utopian world anymore, but these discussions would be better if he could accept the premise and judge it on its own merits.
Why? There's Star Trek in the title. That brings certain expectations to the table.
"LOL it's a shit trek, but judge it on its own merits!"
How about the showrunners attempt to live up to the series' potential instead?
If you (Rich, not you) flatly reject the premise why even have the discussion or even watch the show?
If he's going to whine about the politics of nuTrek, then he might as well put effort into breaking down why this specific execution is or isn't hokey and bad, instead of just complaining that it's not what he wanted.
Rich isn't incapable of doing that. I think one of the better reviews he and Jack did on PreRec was breaking down The Order 1886 to show how cliched its storytelling beats were and how badly they dragged down the game even if you made the concession that it was "more about the cinematic experience than the gunplay," as some people insisted.
Star Trek was always political. TOS was filled with blunt political allegories (culminating in The Undiscovered Country), and so much of TNG was political--interstellar dealings with other powers, treaties and negotiations all up everywhere, exploring social justice issues of the day (sometimes clumsily). It's just the politics of those times was cozy and compatible with us, perhaps in hindsight, taking the form of counterculture, anti-war stories, then later replaced by Cold War stories of good versus evil. How lovely it was for the viewer to be invited up to the bridge of the gleaming flagship that espoused our values outwards towards the uncivilized and the ignorant. How bright the light.
I think the episodic nature of those two series helped provide some variety and levity. But it's silly to judge a show for its structure rather than how it executes its themes and stories within that structure. Yet even within TNG there is also a take out there that Picard and the Enterprise was increasingly alone in upholding those utopian Federation values. How many times did he brandish his speech to admonish not only other alien cultures, but towards Federation officers and officials who were engaged in cover-ups or secret dealings? (Here. Here. Here. Mike's not the only person who can do this.)
What Rich wants, it seems to me, is to not only to feel good again, but to feel the same type of good as an escape. (They make fun of fanboys, but man I was struck by one shot of Rich going that's not MY Star Trek, which is basically who they are always making fun of). That shouldn't happen IMO, given what happened in-universe. A Borg attack which shook an unprepared Starfleet out of its complacency. The fallout effects on Federation citizens after the Cardassian war. A war with the Dominion that cost millions of lives and have far-ranging effects. Multiple natural disasters in neighbouring powers leading to mass migration. Things can't and shouldn't go back to the way they were. Change is and should be always be happening in any lived-in world, fictional or not. How Federation society might retreat inwards might be an ugly thing, but one that is very realistic and relevant.
If Picard can illustrate the struggle one principled and deeply moral man has to affect positive change on a disillusioned society that has lost its way, wouldn't that be the best type of story to tell in this day and age? The best TOS and TNG stories tapped into the cultural zeitgeist of their respective times; whether Picard can do this I sincerely doubt (I do agree with them about Kurtzman's influence), but the attempt itself might lead to new science fiction stories, stories about finding light in times of darkness, which I think is a very good and necessary thing.
I think the episodic nature of those two series helped provide some variety and levity. But it's silly to judge a show for its structure rather than how it executes its themes and stories within that structure. Yet even within TNG there is also a take out there that Picard and the Enterprise was increasingly alone in upholding those utopian Federation values. How many times did he brandish his speech to admonish not only other alien cultures, but towards Federation officers and officials who were engaged in cover-ups or secret dealings? (Here. Here. Here. Mike's not the only person who can do this.)
What Rich wants, it seems to me, is to not only to feel good again, but to feel the same type of good as an escape. (They make fun of fanboys, but man I was struck by one shot of Rich going that's not MY Star Trek, which is basically who they are always making fun of). That shouldn't happen IMO, given what happened in-universe. A Borg attack which shook an unprepared Starfleet out of its complacency. The fallout effects on Federation citizens after the Cardassian war. A war with the Dominion that cost millions of lives and have far-ranging effects. Multiple natural disasters in neighbouring powers leading to mass migration. Things can't and shouldn't go back to the way they were. Change is and should be always be happening in any lived-in world, fictional or not. How Federation society might retreat inwards might be an ugly thing, but one that is very realistic and relevant.
If Picard can illustrate the struggle one principled and deeply moral man has to affect positive change on a disillusioned society that has lost its way, wouldn't that be the best type of story to tell in this day and age? The best TOS and TNG stories tapped into the cultural zeitgeist of their respective times; whether Picard can do this I sincerely doubt (I do agree with them about Kurtzman's influence), but the attempt itself might lead to new science fiction stories, stories about finding light in times of darkness, which I think is a very good and necessary thing.
I generally agree with their ideas regarding what Star Trek should be. But when they hadn't made any Trek for like 20 years and the fan base aged into their 40s with no one new, they were bound to go in a different direction. There is no continuity anymore from the previous shows since CBS is running this shit instead of Paramount.
That said I'm not against a new direction for Trek in general, it just all seems like a waste because there's plenty of other shows that do the dark gritty sci fi stuff way better and don't have to worry about baggage. And Alex Kurtzman is involved.
That said I'm not against a new direction for Trek in general, it just all seems like a waste because there's plenty of other shows that do the dark gritty sci fi stuff way better and don't have to worry about baggage. And Alex Kurtzman is involved.
I hardly even know what they're talking about (still haven't watched much Trek, even though I love the little I've seen so far), but Rich and Mike just poppin off on random bullshit, inter-cut with clips from old Trek making new Trek look like the dumbest thing ever for 40 mins never fails to entertain.
To be honest I feel that especially in this day and age Star Trek's original style and message is more relevant than ever before. It would serve as a beacon of inspiration and hope for humanity. As others have said, dystopian sci-fi is everywhere. Star Trek should be different in my opinion.
Agreed. My mother (the biggest Trekkie and especially TNG fangirl I know) actually seems to like the new direction, but she agreed with me when we talked about the episode that too much cynicism or dystopia could completely break the show under its own weight.
Trek is at its best when it isn't mired in hopelessness, so hopefully the next episode brings some clarity on what the dweeby Romulan guy is up to and who the actual bad guys are so we can get a feel for what the tone of the show really wants to be.
I don't think the original TOS style and messaging work anymore. Post-racial and post-civil rights attitudes are problematic in how they gloss over real struggles. (DS9 knew this and devoted episodes and characters to address this.) Things are NOT rosy and pretending that they are runs contrary to the narrative of our times and for the hopeful future we seek to envision. Gene's views were arguably refreshing for their time, but they faltered terribly even by the 80's and 90's. Being nostalgic about the good old days flies against in the spirit of Star Trek and doesn't really work other than as an escape (which is fine if you want your science-fiction to be fantasy)
Yes, grim-dark sci-fi is prevalent in the mainstream, but not sci-fi that, as I mention, that acknowledges the darkness and pushes for change despite it all. I dislike Discovery because it has no message other than the simplest one: Having a Federation is good. But why? And how to achieve it? For whom?
Picard as a character is a good vehicle to explore those questions beyond the shallowest realms: An intellectual and a do-er, a reflective introvert and charismatic leader, broken by the system but inspired to take up the mantle again. What can he do to actively shape a disillusioned world? There is a compelling story here to tell beyond merely having him be a hero. I don't think they can do it, to be honest, but eh.
The Fistful of Datas shot was Mike playing around. He suggested that Data and Picard had a businesslike relationship, while Data and everyone else had friendships. So he showed clips of Data and Picard acting businesslike, and clips of Data and everyone else playing around. But then, since Mike is Mike, he also had to show clips of Data trying to murder everyone. Because that's funny.
IMO, I think I agree with what Mike and Rich were trying to say there. Picard's a nice guy, and he wasn't doing anything better, so I could totally see him picking up a cause and fighting to protect this troubled girl (who also happens to be Data's daughter), but it's a bit much to suggest that Picard is having daily dreams about Data's death, 20 years after-the-fact (and that he doesn't want to wake up, because he doesn't want Data to really be gone). Even if we add the caveat of it being the 10-year anniversary of "Data's race" (?) being wiped out.
Picard as a Captain was always businesslike and professional and detached (with everyone, not just Data). It was a thing in the final episode of the series that he finally loosened up a little and allowed himself to connect emotionally with his shipmates. And then the movies (with their "two Picards" syndrome) tried to imply that Picard and Data had always had a Kirk/Spock relationship. I never really bought that. Data and Geordi were friends, followed by Data and everyone else, followed by Data and Picard.
And it's not like Picard hasn't lost people under his command before. Jack Crusher was apparently Picard's best friend, until he was killed under Picard's command. Tasha Yar too. The Romulans even set Picard against Tasha's Romulan daughter, and Picard's like "I'm not sure what you're hoping to gain from this. Confusion? Distraction? But whatever it is, it's not going to work." And it didn't work. Picard's judgement wasn't impaired in the slightest.
Picard never really let himself have a life, which was part of why he was upset about his brother's family dying, because knowing his brother had a family gave him permission to forego having a family and to chase his career, but when they died, it brought Picard's failure in life into focus. And so, Data sacrifices his own life to save Picard's life, and I could see that messing Picard up. Picard needs to have a life now, he owes at least that much to Data, but he doesn't know how to live a real life. I could see that putting Picard into his vineyard retirement situation. But the show gave Picard other reasons to return to the vineyard (the fall of the Federation), and made Data's death have an even bigger impact on Picard.
It's not a dealbreaker for me, it's just something that's worth pointing out. And it (the question of "Why is Data's death impacting Picard so heavily?") is something that maybe the show could explore more in the future. But I don't expect they will. Just like I don't expect them to realistically pull the Federation back from this "Trump's America" dystopia they have shoved it into.
Trek was always the balance of holding onto the ideals while dealing with the things that could tear them down or change the view on them. STVI had those within the Federation and Klingon Empire who didn't want peace, or one to aid the other. But The Federation as a whole majorly did, as did the Klingons.
In STP it's just "Nah fuck the Romulans just because". It's not the ideals being challenged by the few, it's the ideals just being absent for no good reason.
That is not what DS9 did, that held onto the ideals but tried to show that minorities or individuals secretly sometimes had or chose to break them for what they believed to be the greater good, but like the Founder disease some things were too far and that doing that to ensure the ideals remained was a farce and would be actually destroy them worse than doing nothing.
Even STD had the "You know what, blowing up the Klingon homeworld will destroy the Federation even worse than the Klingons heading for Earth" moment, even if terribly written.
In STP it's just "Nah fuck the Romulans just because". It's not the ideals being challenged by the few, it's the ideals just being absent for no good reason.
That is not what DS9 did, that held onto the ideals but tried to show that minorities or individuals secretly sometimes had or chose to break them for what they believed to be the greater good, but like the Founder disease some things were too far and that doing that to ensure the ideals remained was a farce and would be actually destroy them worse than doing nothing.
Even STD had the "You know what, blowing up the Klingon homeworld will destroy the Federation even worse than the Klingons heading for Earth" moment, even if terribly written.
But right here you're also using the Picard in the movies (Generations) to justify one side of Picard while also saying the movies in general had a Picard out of character. I know that's a common criticism of the movie Picard, but I'm one of those who believes we can't ignore what happened in the movies either when looking at Picard's character as a whole.
I know that what happens a lot of time is that we take a look at the overall balance of a fictional character throughout their presence in the narratives they appear in, and just determine which episodes or stories with that character are more "in line" with that character. And episodes or stories where that character is deemed to be in discord with how they are written overall, are thrown out.
But I don't see Picard being affected by Data's death to the degree we see in the first episode of Picard, to be very out of character. Especially if we do take the events of First Contact and Nemesis as an important part of Picard's life. He never actually says Data and him were the best of friends, but it's not a stretch to Picard to be deeply affected in the first episode of "Picard" by Data's death and by what happened to the Synths, Romulus, etc.
I mean, it was Picard who argued for Data's rights in Measure of a Man, and by the later half of TNG and the rest of the movies, Data's and Picard's relationship was indeed built up more, even if for some people, the "true" form of this relationship is only what we see in the first seasons of TNG. What we see in that RLM review is a function of them simply not wanting to take into account anything that doesn't lead to a very specific portrayal of Picard in their minds.
In short, I have no trouble believing Picard gives this much shit about Data.
I think you and other like RLM are exaggerating, with just one episode into PIC, what happened with the Romulan rescue armada. The Federation clearly agreed with Picard at first to help the Romulans, but the point of this show is to tell the story of why that didn't happened. "The unthinkable" as the interviewer said and something that tested the Federation's ideals.
Mars and the rescue armada blowing up is one of those things that would make even the most idealistic states falter, as the Federation has done to a lesser scale before.
I would've though RLM would be happy to see Picard be the moral spark that would put the Federation back on track, like he did countless times before in TNG, when almost every admiral was shown to be a son of a b. It's a wonder, honestly, with all those crazy captains and Admirals throughout TNG, the movies and DS9 and others, that Starfleet command and the Federation as a whole was still trusted to do the right thing every time.
During many episodes of TNG and the movies, the stories were written to literally show Picard and his speeches as the only reasons the Federation didn't do a stupid thing over and over again.
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You should start watching Star Trek, and then you can vlog about it on Youtube and make some extra pocket change. Trekkies love watching non-trekkies experience Trek for the first time (kind of true of all fanbases really, but trekkies are huge, so there's more money to be made around them).
I suggest starting with the TOS episode "Balance of Terror". It's a suspenseful fan-favorite about how these "Romulan" characters intrude into Federation space, and there's one racist on Kirk's ship who says "Muh daddy fought these ****'s back in the old days, so I don't like these ****'s and think we should kill them. Also, I don't like Spock's face, cuz he looks like one of these ****'s." And everyone tells him "Shut the fuck up you redneck, that kind of attitude has no place in modern civilized society. Not even in a time of war." And then at the end, the Romulan Commander says "You know what? People are people. If we weren't at war, we could totally be bros. Peace out dudes." Also, the racist learns to stop being a racist, because Spock saves his ass.
And then a century later, that Romulan Commander's entire race was pretty much wiped out, because Star Trek is no longer aspirational (and hasn't been for some time). Because those rednecks were actually not a one-off, and were more numerous than we thought. Not only do the good guys not come to the rescue, but they spit on those who would. Because we (Starfleet/America) are the baddies. It's kind of a bitter pill to swallow, and I'm not sure if it was the right move, or if this is the right show for it, but there's no denying that it has impact.
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Just to say, I get why Picard was affected by what happened to the Romulans (he was on the front lines of diplomatic bridge-building there, for pretty much the entire series, and he made a lot of good progress). I don't get anything about the Synths or how that relates to Picard/Mars/the Romulans, or why Romulans are trying to capture/kill Synths (just basic revenge, maybe?), because that's just a big black hole of stuff that hasn't been explained.
I totally get someone in obvious distress showing up on Picard's doorstep, and Picard being ready to jump to their aid. That's just classic Picard and it's why we love him.
I get why the girl was having dreams of Picard (it's some sort of pre-programmed defense mechanism).
Now, if Picard had started dreaming of Data after meeting the girl, and then realizes that the girl's face was in one of Data's old paintings (Picard's subconscious putting the clues together, leading to the dreams), and then Picard puts together this ill-defined, still-mysterious Data-daughter connection, and that prompts Picard to greatly increase his investment in this mystery... that's something I could 100% get behind.
But Picard dreaming of Data on a daily basis, before any of this started, that's a bit too much for me.
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