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Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
I just came in here to say that Season 5 is underrated as fuck. It really strikes the perfect balance in mystery and REAL character moments that the first season did.

Whew, Whatever Happened, Happened is still one of my all time favorite tv episodes and it doesn't even do anything but tell a simple story.

If LOST ended with the season 5 finale it would be the perfect ending. Better than season 6?
When Jack was on the top of the hatch to drop the nuclear bomb, Giacchinno music was amazing.
We were all thinking "OMG this is why they are on this island, to kill themselves! It's brillant! "
It's like we were climbing a mountain during 5 seasons and we were finally at the top of it :p !
I had CHILLS during that scenes. The first time in a tv show i felt that.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,935
if no power...no smockey. Jack can kill MIB because he's a human.
And i think that was part of MIB plan to sound like he's dangerous. Because if everybody knows that pulling out the cork erase all powers SO Monster powerrs, no one would do it.
But did Widmore know that, or not?
Since he talks about Jacob's plan, i.e. Desmond being a "measure of last resort", in that scene I quoted above, it looks like he did.
But if he did know that the Man in Black couldn't leave the island without losing his powers, why did he assume he was going to kill Penny? Why betray Jacob right away on the condition that he would spare Penny?

(And does it look like Widmore is concerned about the afterlife disappearing (your theory), there?)
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
But did Widmore know that, or not?
Since he talks about Jacob's plan, i.e. Desmond being a "measure of last resort", in that scene I quoted above, it looks like he did.
But if he did know that the Man in Black couldn't leave the island without losing his powers, why did he assume he was going to kill Penny? Why betray Jacob right away on the condition that he would spare Penny?

I'm still thinking that even if Widmore knew that Desmond is the fail safe key, he didn't know how to use him.
But he knew that this include electromagnetism since he test him again in that cabin during season 6 in desmond episode.
Btw i'm still thinking too that Lost season 2 is a mini version of all Lost story.
I remember they said they have a video explaining LOST if ABC want to shut down the tv show for bad audience (good for us, it was the other way, the writers talked to ABC to end the show 48 episodes after season 3, and ABC didn't want to). And they said that since they are on an island they don't want the show to continue endlessly (Grey's Anatomy is still airing!) . So i remember one guy said that if the show is cancelled they would use the hatch storyline to explain the show.

4 8 15 16 23 42 = jacob candidate
fail safe key = Desmond
108 on the countdown = 108 days on the island
Hieroglyphs said Underworld so we know why now.
The computer = the island.
So we need those numbers again, and again, and again on the island (a candidate at full time on the island), to protect the hatch from explosion.
 

Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
I watched the video a long while ago and I agree with many points. I would highly recommend watching if anyone wants to understand why many others were frustrated with the ending, without reducing them to 'people who don't get it'.

I remember one of the biggest thing that rang false to me was in Season 6 when Jin intentionally decided to die with Sun in the Submarine. Sure Jin, you saw a glimpse of the Flash-Sideways, but you still have a daughter in the real world. Don't let her be an orphan!
In the first five seasons, there were just too many crazy things thrown out there (such as giant donkey wheel, electromagnetism, moving island, jacob, and numbers) for them to coherently craft a satisfying conclusion. The problem was that Darlton kept on egging the fans that there was going to be a satisfying and logical explanation. It ended up having half the season devoted to the 'manufactured' drama of the afterlife, which in retrospect didn't matter at all. It was just designed to get maximum nostalgia about plot lines and characters from the show's Greatest HIts.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
I watched the video a long while ago and I agree with many points. I would highly recommend watching if anyone wants to understand why many others were frustrated with the ending, without reducing them to 'people who don't get it'.

I remember one of the biggest thing that rang false to me was in Season 6 when Jin intentionally decided to die with Sun in the Submarine. Sure Jin, you saw a glimpse of the Flash-Sideways, but you still have a daughter in the real world. Don't let her be an orphan!.

Wasn't the point of the show that you don't need civilisation? And that you need to let the past die?
Well Jin/Sun daughter was made on the island...punishment for leaving it?

I remember Darlton said that ABC will never let LOST go and they will in some time use the franchise again for a new tv show.
I hope they will not.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,935
I'm still thinking that even if Widmore knew that Desmond is the fail safe key, he didn't know how to use him.
You think he didn't know that? Jacob didn't even tell him?

I mean, Desmond didn't seem to know what he was supposed to do, either.
And Jacob apparently didn't feel like telling Jack and the others how he thought the Man in Black could be defeated even as they literally asked him that very question.
So if he didn't even tell Widmore...

Sounds like a great fucking plan, Jacob. Good thing you were saved by the show's awful writing (Jack: "sure, we just talked to Jacob a few hours ago, and he had no answer when we asked him what could be done about the Man in Black, but in spite of all logic, I still somehow have faith that he knew what to do and brought Desmond here to uncork the heart of the island!"... and it works because of course it does shut up).

4 8 15 16 23 42 = jacob candidate
Sometime after Kate's name was crossed out but before Locke died because that's not arbitrary at all, and yes, those numbers traveled back in time to show up in weird places, and sure, they bring you bad luck if you play them at the lottery.
It all makes sense now, phew.

Hieroglyphs said Underworld so we know why now.
Because the DHARMA guys were hippies who would sometimes get really, really high, and I can't think of another reason why they'd think it would be a good idea to 1) add some hieroglyphs to that counter (because simply writing "underworld" in English would be so quaint) 2) that would only show up right when said counter reaches zero, i.e. as the world is about to end (helpful!).
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
Well Jacob only spoke to Richard right? So Widmore doesn't knowing this is logical.
Desmond well he's not from the island.
I mean he said it himself. The Monster is manipulate people to prove Jacob that humanity is bad.
Jacob don't want to manipulate people, to let human prove to the Monster that they are good.

And bad in Lost equal to "i want to go back on civilisation"
Good is "i made mistake, i need to accept this, forgive myself and let go."
 
Oct 27, 2017
454
Any one remember this video?


My biggest disappointment with Lost is that all the Dharma Initiative / Hanso bullshit never went anywhere. There were so many pointless clues, a big ARG to reveal this video that ultimately meant nothing. No one ever references the Valenzetti Equation again, there is no further explanation of what Dharma was doing on the island, or what happened to them. It was all just manufactured hype to keep fans invested in the show between seasons.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
Any one remember this video?


My biggest disappointment with Lost is that all the Dharma Initiative / Hanso bullshit never went anywhere. There were so many pointless clues, a big ARG to reveal this video that ultimately meant nothing. No one ever references the Valenzetti Equation again, there is no further explanation of what Dharma was doing on the island, or what happened to them. It was all just manufactured hype to keep fans invested in the show between seasons.


If i remember correctly they explained that Jacob agreed with Richard to let them go on the island because they needed a scientific answer to their problem (the Monster). Though Jacob was agree that it was a mistake since they were digging to find the light source.
And btw, the Valenzetti Equation was written on the halo hatch map.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,935
Well Jacob only spoke to Richard right? So Widmore doesn't knowing this is logical.
No, it really isn't. Think a bit harder about what you just typed.
For one thing, Jacob doesn't always use Richard as an intermediary (he speaks directly to a bunch of other characters, like Ilana, Dôgen, Hurley, and well, most of the surviving cast toward the very end), and he clearly didn't there, since Widmore was on the mainland and Richard was on the island.
And even if he had to use an intermediary, it still wouldn't make it a good idea to not convey to anybody the specifics of his plan to save the world (especially considering he then let himself get killed by Ben because why not I guess). Mentioning the intermediary thing doesn't change anything at all to the point I was making above, really.

Jacob don't want to manipulate people, to let human prove to the Monster that they are good.
C'mon, telling them what they're supposed to do with Desmond in order to save the world isn't "manipulating" them.
The mental gymnastics, I swear...
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,194
Ah! No, sorry, I just meant that there's no difference, and no lessons learned.

(Not sure if the thread about that show is still up on the old site, but I elaborated quite a bit over there at the time...)
I'm surprised people think Leftovers has the same problems, since I just assumed it was universally praised.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
Yeah, season 6 was utter garbage. The mental gymnastics people did to justify this season and the ending were beyond the pale.
 

beelzebozo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,073
i have said this since i first watched it, but if the show ended at the end of season 3 i would have totally been more impressed. it was a mindfuck of an episode which ended in a surprising way: a broken person returned to civilization, now realizing they have no purpose there, and yearning for a place where they were useful. how apropos that a show about trying to get away from a place ends with a sad person wanting to return.

i did like parts of seasons 4 and 5, but not nearly as much as i liked the idea of the above. that is such a human thing, to think we know what we want or need and then regret our choices and have to live with them.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
At first I hated the last season, but there was too many good parts with Jacob/Richard and Desmond to actually hate it.

tumblr_nbglt32lya1r4peomo6_250.gif

tumblr_ly2635jnRB1qgu0zvo2_250.gif
 

Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,998
I'm surprised people think Leftovers has the same problems, since I just assumed it was universally praised.
It doesn't at all, because the mysteries are not central. The series is about the characters and their relationships and struggles first and foremost. I don't know how anyone can watch more than a few episodes of The Leftovers and think that they are going to get answers to any of the mysteries, that is simply not the point at all.
.
The funny thing is that the LOST island basically IS just Purgatory, since it basically involves every character coming to terms with what they did before the crash. It's just that it was executed very poorly due to the WTF moments being front and centre, which meant that the series had no focus.
 

peteykirch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,832
Watched the first 3 videos in the playlist.

I'm siting here like
giphy.webp
in agreement with everything he's saying.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,911
I'm still surprised by the hate Lost have even after 7 years, but GOT season 7 got a pass for many inconsistencies.

Game of Thrones Season 7 didn't get a pass. If anything, there was WAY too much made of a handful of timeline issues in one particular episode as though it defined the entire season.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,935
It doesn't at all, because the mysteries are not central.
You're making it sound like the mysteries were the only problem with the writing on Lost, but they really weren't. The characters sucked (good luck explaining their motivations and sudden changes of heart, for instance), the treatment of the alleged "themes" was laughable, etc. Same thing for The Leftovers.
 
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Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,998
You're making it sound like the mysteries were the only problem with the writing on Lost, but they really weren't. The characters sucked (good luck explaining their motivations and sudden changes of heart, for instance), the treatment of the alleged "themes" were laughable, etc. Same thing for The Leftovers.
How is it the same with the Leftovers? The only thing somewhat inconsistent character-wise is
Evangeline's heel turn
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,935
How is it the same with the Leftovers?
Like I said earlier, I elaborated over at the old site, and a quick Google search just told me the threads were still up, so you can go and see what I mean by that, if you're really interested (besides, it's somewhat beyond the scope of this particular thread).
 

Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,998
Like I said earlier, I elaborated over at the old site, and a quick Google search just told me the threads were still up, so you can go and see what I mean by that, if you're really interested (besides, it's somewhat beyond the scope of this particular thread).
Fair enough, though I strongly suspect we'll have an 'agree to disagree' stance on this
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,543
Hey. Hey, you guys. Hey. Hey, listen.

So.

If your critique is 10 hours long? Your critique is probably bad. NO ONE will ever be able to remember what you said after 3 1/2 hours. None of the points and observations you make 6 hours in are going to matter 3 hours later. Because you'll have forgotten them. Because I will DEFINITELY have forgotten them. This is the worst trend on Youtube for me.
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
Man, I cried at the ending, so I can't hate it because it touched me on all the right feels, but every time I think about it, it's so stupid.
 
OP
OP
Arta

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
Game of Thrones Season 7 didn't get a pass. If anything, there was WAY too much made of a handful of timeline issues in one particular episode as though it defined the entire season.
Indeed, that season was rightfully shit upon by nearly everyone on the internet. Preston Jacobs practically makes a living on crapping on season 7.

If your critique is 10 hours long? Your critique is probably bad. NO ONE will ever be able to remember what you said after 3 1/2 hours. None of the points and observations you make 6 hours in are going to matter 3 hours later. Because you'll have forgotten them. Because I will DEFINITELY have forgotten them. This is the worst trend on Youtube for me.
Nah.

The video is that long because it has to meticulously examine a 100+ episode show and going through every defense that has propagated over the years. The idea is to be utterly thorough so that no one has an excuse.

And as for forgetting the points of the review, it's constructed so that the main points of the first 7 videos are referred to in the final video to form the major analysis of the ending. And he gives several warnings to remember the points when he states them. It's not some guy rambling for hours like a misogynist Last Jedi review.
 
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TheIdiot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,729
I saw all ten hours of this last year. It's actually really entertaining if you agree with the overall assessment that the show went down the shitter, and if you had trouble accepting it as the show was airing.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,935
If your critique is 10 hours long? Your critique is probably bad. NO ONE will ever be able to remember what you said after 3 1/2 hours. None of the points and observations you make 6 hours in are going to matter 3 hours later. Because you'll have forgotten them. Because I will DEFINITELY have forgotten them. This is the worst trend on Youtube for me.
Good point! Same thing for books: if you can't get your point across in three paragraphs or less, it's probably bad! How am I even supposed to remember the beginning anyway? Books suck, man.
 

SkabootchWolf

Member
Nov 30, 2017
94
They always made up shit as they went along, and that worked fantastically until they had to start providing answers starting in the final season.

And that's why until the final season Lost was pretty fantastic. But, it seriously started flailing badly in the final season. I mean, they simply had no idea how to bring it together or what they were doing.

There were soooo many abandoned ideas in the final season, and they merely went back to the idea that everyone guessed in season 1, and probably what they had in mind at the very beginning. But they only decided this was what they would do at the very end of the final season, with the rest being confused, pointless and just boring.

The final season was pretty damned bad. A complete waste of time. Shame. It could've been a true TV classic that people mention along side the other greats, but what remains is the stigma of ruining it at the end.
 
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Deleted member 12352

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,203
Ah, few things make my blood boil like remembering Lost's last couple of seasons...

Everything about Jacob and the smoke monster was such nonsensical, confusing shit that even those alone would have been enough to ruin the show, which absolutely was fantastic TV for at least 3 seasons (Season 2 finale is one of my favourite endings to a season of TV ever in fact), but that literally every single plotline relating to the 'mystery' of the island went nowhere and/or didn't line up with plot elements seeded in the earlier seasons at all by the end (Remember that whole thing with the cabin? What was that exactly?).

A clear example of a show that had no long term payoffs planned at the start, so they essentially "winged it" once they got that multi-season renewal after season 3 ended. That Ben focused short they made after the show ended that was basically a big 'fuck you' to anyone who wanted actual resolution to the plot pretty much confirmed that imo.

I'll give this a watch though, cheers for the heads up, OP.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I think it's pretty well documented at this point that they were mostly making shit up as they went along. Now I don't think writing like that is inherently bad, but it can make it hard to stick the landing or come up with satisfying conclusions to your plotlines, and I think the show failed to do both, at least for many viewers.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I never really had the trust in the writers that some viewers had, I remember even on season 1, the moment they started introducing the numbers I was thinking to myself - ain't no way this is going to have a satisfying ending. Like, it can be a math thing or some obscure reference to some random shit, I remember looking at people speculating about that on the internet and thinking, man, ya'll going to be disappointed. Like, we don't think the writers really have the answer's to life's deep mysteries or anything, right?
And to be clear, I'm not sitting on any high horse here or saying that I'm like smarter than you all, in fact, such cynical approach to fiction is quite often counter-productive to your enjoyment, and it was certainly the case here, I mean, if you were able to suspend your disbelief and love the ever loving shit out of the show all the way through then you are the clearly the winner here.
I think I got that from watch the X-Files, that show made me realize that it's way easier to dangle mysteries than to resolve them in a meaningful and satisfying ways. Though I do think that the X-Files had less focus on the overarching mysteries than Lost (and it's also why my favorite X-Files movies are pretty much all standalone episodes).

Anyway, I think that's why I'm not that mad at the writers, but at the same time, this is also why I lost interest in the show sometime on Season 2.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,543
Good point! Same thing for books: if you can't get your point across in three paragraphs or less, it's probably bad! How am I even supposed to remember the beginning anyway? Books suck, man.

Jason Schreier's Audio Book "Blood, Sweat and Pixels" which extensively chronicles the making off 10 different games is 2 hours shorter than this TV show critique.

Maybe this just triggers me hard because I stumpled upon a 20-hours-or-something-critique of a Pokemon game recently, listening to countless editors-in-chiefs cry in terror at the same time and giving me the overwhelming feeling that critique and analysis as a valid form of expression is dead.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I watched the video a long while ago and I agree with many points. I would highly recommend watching if anyone wants to understand why many others were frustrated with the ending, without reducing them to 'people who don't get it'.

I remember one of the biggest thing that rang false to me was in Season 6 when Jin intentionally decided to die with Sun in the Submarine. Sure Jin, you saw a glimpse of the Flash-Sideways, but you still have a daughter in the real world. Don't let her be an orphan!
In the first five seasons, there were just too many crazy things thrown out there (such as giant donkey wheel, electromagnetism, moving island, jacob, and numbers) for them to coherently craft a satisfying conclusion. The problem was that Darlton kept on egging the fans that there was going to be a satisfying and logical explanation. It ended up having half the season devoted to the 'manufactured' drama of the afterlife, which in retrospect didn't matter at all. It was just designed to get maximum nostalgia about plot lines and characters from the show's Greatest HIts.
Oh my god I'm so happy someone else caught that jin scene too. I was like, dude you have a child at home what the fuck is wrong with you? Like and sun didn't point that out either. What the fuck.
 

Gio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
837
Manila
Anyone else notice how the musical score had changed over the seasons? As the show went on we got less percussion (especially with the plane pieces) and more emphasis on themes and motifs. It also felt like by Season 5, there were less scenes accompanied only by ambient sounds. My theory is that Giacchino picked up on and adapted to Lost's hard pivot into science fiction, which is soooo cool even if I do prefer the old style.
 

hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
I'll have to check this out. I remember liking the final episode a lot, but Season 6 as a whole was trash. So was Season 5. The writers clearly had no idea what they were doing, which is so ridiculous because they got an end date. No other TV show has given their writers that. They had the opportunity to meticulously plan out where the series was going to go and end, but they couldn't even keep it consistent over two years.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
Already wasted 80 hours on the show, (well, 50 at least on the back half) so I understand exactly why it was an offensively bad ending. I don't need to spend another 10 hours listening to someone explain what could've (and has) been adequately explained in 15 minutes: Lost was an extended piece of narrative diarrhea with no authorship or integrity on the part of the writing team.

Anyone parroting the writers' defence, that it was "about the journey and characters all along" is objectively wrong. And I'm sure this video explains why. On second thoughts, maybe 10 hours is what it'll take to convince some apologists of the show.
 
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hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
I think what makes me so mad about Losr, is that they clearly were making it up as they went, but the writers constantly gave interviews where they said they had it all planned out. Why even say that shit? I would listen to their weekly podcasts, and they would always hint at stuff that never came to fruition. They were so full of shit.

A writer from Season 1 straight up said they just threw a bunch of shit at the wall and saw what stuck. I could give them a pass because most didn't think it was going to last longer than one season, but after it was clear that it was going to be a big thing, they claimed they got together after season 1 and figured the long term plan. Turns out they were full of shit and used that same approach for the next 5 seasons lol
 
OP
OP
Arta

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
Anyone else notice how the musical score had changed over the seasons? As the show went on we got less percussion (especially with the plane pieces) and more emphasis on themes and motifs. It also felt like by Season 5, there were less scenes accompanied only by ambient sounds. My theory is that Giacchino picked up on and adapted to Lost's hard pivot into science fiction, which is soooo cool even if I do prefer the old style.
Scenes like this, right?

 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,935
FUCKING WOW. They blamed Charlotte's age mistake on the actress. These guys are such tools. Refuse to own up to anything.
"Can't let the audience suspect we have no plan! Let's make some shit up and throw a cast member under the bus instead!"
"... Wait, she heard about it? Shit. Well, too late to go back and admit the truth, let's just lie some more!"