This thread is still about those videos though. It's fine if you want to share your opinion regardless, since they are very long, but maybe realize that people also have the right to dismiss your input when you actively refuse to watch them.
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Reetae reviews the ending of LOST by comprehensively reviewing the series.
- Thread starter Arta
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I have afforded them that right a few times, but they're being sticklers for it. But let me make it clear:
It's absolutely okay for you to completely dismiss me if I haven't watched the video, but that also doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor unallowed to comment in an active discussion about a show that I have seen.
As I already said, they're not arguing things that requires them t have watched the video, whereas you have and continue to do.
Then feel free to dismiss me instead of repeatedly trying to call me out on it. I won't judge.
Well, I sure couldn't tell!
Dude. You don't need to be a psychic to prove someone is lying.
This is about a specific series of videos.
But the fact threads that criticize the writing of the show keep getting made sure says something about Lost.
You just went from "how can you claim they lied? you'd need to be able to read minds to prove someone is lying!" to "okay, so they lied, but why did you all mention that example? that's really telling!"
Obvious goalpost moving is obvious.
(and maybe it's because that example is particularly blatant, gross and hard to deny? and thus a good argument in this particular instance? but yeah, no, go ahead and claim that doesn't count because of reasons)
Expecting you to watch the essay this thread is about? The gall!
And it's only "vague" to you because you didn't watch the essay, but sure, try and somehow blame that on others.
Where are these people who are actively arguing against his points without watching the video? I just read through the last two pages and you're the only one doing that.
Additionally for having consumed so much of the extra stuff when you saw lost, you clearly aren't remembering clearly (which is why you should watch the series this thread is about).
Thanks for the offer, but I'll keep calling you out if you keep making arguments in bad faith.
And yet you keep bringing up things the video actually talks about and tears down, but you wouldn't know this because you refuse to watch the videos because reasons.
I was also a massive fan of the show at the time, and was let down by the ending. And yes, the vid does a good job of showing why even if I couldn't put it into words, because they do things like point out the writers saying things like "Putting an alternate reality idea in a story is a bad idea because it doesn't make the audience feel there are any stakes in it" and years later they make HALF OF THE LAST SEASON one. They also do this very same thing about bringing people back from the dead, and time travel. Again, this is covered in said videos.
I gave you an out of this pointless back and forth because it's far too hostile and dogpiley for my tastes. I don't really want to argue about this any more, because I really do love the show Lost and in general, outside of anything in this thread, I think people give it's creators too much of a hard time for the show. How about we let bygons be bygons? You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. But it's about a piece of fiction and it's ridiculous to get this heated over a piece of largely disposable consumable media, something I'm definitely guilty of in this thread.
I'm not going to spend 10 hours of my life watching a video series that I probably wouldn't enjoy, and that's honestly where this discussion ends for the both of us because I can no longer participate when the answers I get are "Just watch the video". Not wanting to watch an essay of that length to talk about a subject isn't an argument in bad faith, it's an admission the argument can no longer continue, because it requires a time investment that the argument doesn't justify. Can you accept that, at least?
You weren't just commenting on it. You were directly trying to refute people and gave comments like these:
Hence people were defending their own point of view. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
I wasn't asking you to watch 10 hours. I linked to one specific hour long video, even at the exact timestamp of one of the examples/lies.
No, because it is arguing in bad faith. Period. You shouldn't be arguing against points in a thread for which you refuse to look at the evidence that the thread is about.
If that is how you feel, then you really ought to bow out of this thread, then. Sorry, but this isn't a good look right now.
The evidence itself doesn't matter if there are logical contradictions in the formula the evidence is being argued around. "They said X but did Y therefore they lied, and they did that all the time" isn't an argument with a sound premise and refuting it shouldn't require looking at each individual point and refuting it one by one. My response was, "The fact that plans change doesn't necessitate an active lying compulsion". I haven't really seen a good rebuttal to that, and the fact that the creators have been dicks before doesn't automatically refute it since the point being made is about the show as a whole.
And I keep trying to tell you that this isn't a point that I even want to argue anymore because we're at an impasse. Continually accusing me of bad faith when I'm directly agreeing with the point you're making in an effort to close the argument amicably with an agree-to-disagree is a little silly. I want to try to have arguments that end on more positive notes for both sides when they're about things that don't really matter so consider it an olive branch.
I don't think anyone is arguing that plans can't change. What they are arguing is that, as the video series demonstrates over and over and over, the producers not only change plans constantly, but then argue that those plans never changed at all despite evidence the video creator provides showing otherwise.
An impasse of your own creation. No one's forcing you to keep replying here, yet you do.
I'm replying because I want to end this on good terms. I'm sick of leaving things on bitter notes between people, and admittedly this one was largely my doing.
Unfortunately your replies haven't helped, but I appreciate the sentiment.
Kitsunelaine the "Things you believe that you can't actually prove with evidence" thread is thataway.
I dig in because I have a compulsion to make people understand what I'm saying that bites me in the ass repeatedly, and it's not born from bad faith but a desire to communicate.
Either way. We can end it there.
A pointless and probably personally damning aside since I said I was going to stop but then didn't, but this is okay because it's a concession so I'm doing it anyway: I think them saying they never changed at all is bad, but at that time the wool was still firmly over everyone's eyes and they had to keep up that illusion. I think that's shitty but I totally understand why they acted that way since they were trying to save face. Though, to put a positive spin on that, it's quite remarkable that the things they did change worked into the plot as well as they did without necessitating a direct retcon.
I agree that their protrayal of those creative decisions was bad but I don't have as strong of a negative reaction to it and wouldn't personally label it as malicious, but something done to not break the immersion in the story at the time it was airing. But if they stuck to it after it aired that's a bit shittier.
I agree that their protrayal of those creative decisions was bad but I don't have as strong of a negative reaction to it and wouldn't personally label it as malicious, but something done to not break the immersion in the story at the time it was airing. But if they stuck to it after it aired that's a bit shittier.
Okay, I set myself up for that one.
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Haven't watched the videos in OP just yet, but definitely interested in them.
But I'll say that having rewatched the whole series with my girlfriend recently, I didn't hate the final season as much as I hated it when it aired.
Part of the problem I had with the final season when it aired was that the pacing was just terrible for a "one episode a week" (with breaks probably) kind of show. The "alternate reality" flashes slowed down any momentum that the main plotline had (the only plotline I was interested in), and even if they weren't there, each weeks episode barely moved things forward. And then there were whole episodes that I felt overexplained things that I feel like could have been better left unexplained (like the entire episode dedicated to Richard's backstory, and the whole episode explaining every part of Jacob and his brother's life).
The alternate reality flashes also ruined all the character's death in the main plotline, because whenever they died there, they just appeared in the alternate reality, so any emotions I'd have felt at any of these character's deaths were robbed, since they weren't "really" dying. Not saying there weren't some emotional scenes with the alternate people getting their memories back and finding their loves, but as I said before, I cared more about the "real" world, not these alternate flashes.
So when the finale rolled around and revealed that those alternate reality flashes didn't have anything to do with the nuke going off last season, and was actually just some kind of purgatory, it made me feel like half the season was not only pointless for the main plot, but also harmful to the story by removing most of the emotional impact of many of the character's deaths in the real world.
But having rewatched the whole season, and knowing about the finale's twist ahead of time, AND being able to binge through multiple episodes in a sitting, the pacing felt less glacial, and knowing the twist meant I didn't have the "are you fucking serious" reaction I initially had when it was revealed. And I did love plenty of the "alternate character's get their memories back and find their true loves" moments.
I still think those purgatory scenes effectively ruined most if not all of the emotional impact of many major character's deaths, and I feel like the last season both explained too many things (I honestly would have preferred not getting a full backstory on Jacob, the smoke monster, and Richard), while also not explaining enough stuff like why the smoke monster leaving would be so bad (he's not all powerful, just get sonic fences and people would be fine), and why saving the island's hole is so important. I guess it could be argued that protecting the island is a matter of faith so you SHOULDN'T know why it has a hole+cork, and the smoke monster is probably a metaphor for Satan or general evil so defeating him is what the characters are SUPPOSE to do because evil is bad.
And I know it would probably have pissed off 10x as many fans as the actual final season did, but in hindsight I'd have loved it if the show at ended with season 5. Juliet just banging away at the bomb and BOOM, cut to white. It would have left a shitload of open threads and would have left the main plotline completely unfinished, but I just loved that season's finale so damn much. If the creators had wanted mysteries left unanswered, that would have been a hell of a way to do it, haha!
But I'll say that having rewatched the whole series with my girlfriend recently, I didn't hate the final season as much as I hated it when it aired.
Part of the problem I had with the final season when it aired was that the pacing was just terrible for a "one episode a week" (with breaks probably) kind of show. The "alternate reality" flashes slowed down any momentum that the main plotline had (the only plotline I was interested in), and even if they weren't there, each weeks episode barely moved things forward. And then there were whole episodes that I felt overexplained things that I feel like could have been better left unexplained (like the entire episode dedicated to Richard's backstory, and the whole episode explaining every part of Jacob and his brother's life).
The alternate reality flashes also ruined all the character's death in the main plotline, because whenever they died there, they just appeared in the alternate reality, so any emotions I'd have felt at any of these character's deaths were robbed, since they weren't "really" dying. Not saying there weren't some emotional scenes with the alternate people getting their memories back and finding their loves, but as I said before, I cared more about the "real" world, not these alternate flashes.
So when the finale rolled around and revealed that those alternate reality flashes didn't have anything to do with the nuke going off last season, and was actually just some kind of purgatory, it made me feel like half the season was not only pointless for the main plot, but also harmful to the story by removing most of the emotional impact of many of the character's deaths in the real world.
But having rewatched the whole season, and knowing about the finale's twist ahead of time, AND being able to binge through multiple episodes in a sitting, the pacing felt less glacial, and knowing the twist meant I didn't have the "are you fucking serious" reaction I initially had when it was revealed. And I did love plenty of the "alternate character's get their memories back and find their true loves" moments.
I still think those purgatory scenes effectively ruined most if not all of the emotional impact of many major character's deaths, and I feel like the last season both explained too many things (I honestly would have preferred not getting a full backstory on Jacob, the smoke monster, and Richard), while also not explaining enough stuff like why the smoke monster leaving would be so bad (he's not all powerful, just get sonic fences and people would be fine), and why saving the island's hole is so important. I guess it could be argued that protecting the island is a matter of faith so you SHOULDN'T know why it has a hole+cork, and the smoke monster is probably a metaphor for Satan or general evil so defeating him is what the characters are SUPPOSE to do because evil is bad.
And I know it would probably have pissed off 10x as many fans as the actual final season did, but in hindsight I'd have loved it if the show at ended with season 5. Juliet just banging away at the bomb and BOOM, cut to white. It would have left a shitload of open threads and would have left the main plotline completely unfinished, but I just loved that season's finale so damn much. If the creators had wanted mysteries left unanswered, that would have been a hell of a way to do it, haha!
I forgot just how much they changed over the course of the show.
I always tended to focus on how The Others went from the 'savage hobo natives of the Island' to weird scientists who just pretend to be savage hobo natives(all the way down to having fake costumes and beards)' to them being like 'spiritual natives that kind of live as scientists or something who then pretend to be savage hobo natives'.
But Dharma itself pre-Season 5 was definitely portrayed very differently than when our heroes actually meet them in the past.
That was one of my biggest disappointments with the show. In seasons 2 and 3 they were presented as a sinister group of scientists with mysterious motives. Then in season 5 they just ended up being bumbling hippy henchmen.
I always viewed the numbers as just a fun little easter egg. Like look, here are some "evil" numbers that are littered in the universe that we like to use. Not a mystery. A mystery for me is what is the smoke monster. Or why is Walt so special. There was never some magical answer for the numbers that would have given me any special insight into the story.
And I think that was a large part of the problem. Instead of the producers just saying that and sticking with, there was this weird attempt to appease the audience and shoe-horn some reason in there. Lost became so concerned with mysteries that everything was suddenly viable as a mystery.
I think it was something the producers overly encouraged and the audience overly participated in This doesn't excuse the real actual mysteries they half-assed and should have focused on.
I watched the show and never expected them to answer literally everything, I mainly watched for the characters so I was completely satisfied with the ending. Season 6 did suck but I enjoyed the finale.
a lot of his complaints really do sound like nitpicks though.
a lot of his complaints really do sound like nitpicks though.
Some of his complaints are nitpicks. But that's gonna happen over the course of 10 hours of video. It's exhaustive and not every criticism is of the exact same degree of severity. I don't agree with every point he makes. But there also some hugely legit deep criticisms that ring completely true for people who had issues with the show. Lots and lots and LOTS of them.
I think the more a person liked the show the more they seem like nitpicks. And the more you had issues with the show, they seem less like nitpicks but more like example after example of flaws. Especially the later stuff in the show. It all adds up after a while to make a larger argument.
The Dharma Initiative! Ohhhhh yeah! Oh and don't forget the mysterious Hanso Foundation! They even had a TV ad for the Hanso Foundation during the season 2 finale! They made a chimp smart! What does that mean?! And don't forget the stupid, convoluted ARG stuff related to all this junk that fans on the various Lost forums spent countless hours wasting their time on unwraveling.
Yeah, there are definitely things he spends time on that sorta do fall into the "doesn't really matter" camp that fans believed a lot of the complaints belonged to. (Numbers on the side of the hatch vs. the top, for example) The important thing is the sheer number of plot holes, unanswered questions, and continuity errors, not that the specifics of each are necessarilly damning. Death by a thousand cuts, although there are definitely a few major gashes. Spending too much time on things like where the numbers were printed can actually hurt the argument in the end when the opposite pov is going to view it as evidence you were too caught up in the things that didn't matter.
A large portion of his issue with season 6 (and, to a slightly lesser extent, season 5) is that it betrayed the characters, though. The "character show" defense definitely works for season 1 and good chunks of later seasons, but 5 and 6 really butchered a lot of them (Especially Jack, Sayid, and Claire) to get the plot to go where it wanted it too. Check out the 6th and 7th videos for most of his examples on this.
A large portion of his issue with season 6 (and, to a slightly lesser extent, season 5) is that it betrayed the characters, though. The "character show" defense definitely works for season 1 and good chunks of later seasons, but 5 and 6 really butchered a lot of them (Especially Jack, Sayid, and Claire) to get the plot to go where it wanted it too. Check out the 6th and 7th videos for most of his examples on this.
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OP
OP
Indeed, Reetae even compares the Charlotte age fiasco to the Bin Laden mistake that was made on Breaking Bad and how Vince Gilligan simply admitted he made a mistake and wouldn't make a clumsy attempt to retcon it.
On Part 7 now, getting into the Man in Black somehow showing up on the frieghter to talk to Michael for some reason and the "You didn't get it" rant. That must have been cathartic.
I still maintain the Desmond stuff in the last series showed the plan was to have a different ending then they changed it.
Fantastic characters like Nikki and Paolo.
A lot of the characters where pretty interesting, it's just a shame how poorly some characters were used.
You know why they killed them right? Instead of rants against writers, i assume you know....right?
What?
Desmond episode in season 6 clearly implies that the light on the island = afterlife world.
Which explain all desmond episode, and all the powers that people had on the island, and why the island need to be protected.
Forget about the "island" itself. It's just a rock floating because of that energy.
Walt , Hurley, Monster, Miles... all of them have powers connected to the death.
I mean many here are screaming "IT'S NONSENSE! STOP TALKING YOU ARE WRONG! LOST IS BAAAD!"
Just...
I don't mind if people didn't like the ending. But saying there is big inconsistencies... No.
Or explain to me those chains in that GoT S7 episodes that the white walkers pulled out the water.
Or how Gendry became Sonic in one episode.
Or how Gendry became Sonic in one episode.
MOD EDIT: Be mindful that people aren't expecting spoilers for another show besides Lost in this thread.
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I think season four is pretty great. But after that it falls apart. It's still the most fun I've had watching a show, though.
Where's it mentioned in S1? I think I know the line you have in mind, but I'm curious to see.
In "White Rabbit", Locke says to Jack: "But I've looked into the eye of this island. And what I saw... was beautiful."
But nothing about light.
The real stars of the show were always the characters and I found LOST delivered on that front most of the time. It's still the GOAT show for character development as far as I'm concerned.
The mysteries did provide great entertainment at times, but it quickly became stupid and nonsensical. After season 3 I basically stopped caring about those.
The mysteries did provide great entertainment at times, but it quickly became stupid and nonsensical. After season 3 I basically stopped caring about those.
"Big inconsistencies" would be a step up from what LOST ends up having.
LOST, when all is said and done, doesn't make much sense. Ben's and The Other's characterizations, motivations, and actions are completely schizophrenic, the Smoke Monster being the Man in Black makes everything Smokey does in the first 4 seasons nonsensical, the whispers being ghosts flies in the face of everything we've seen involving them, Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking, Dharma, and all that jazz are an ill-defined ambiguous mess.
Why is The Man in Black shaking those trees in the pilot episode? A very trivial thing when you get right down to it but it is a useful question to show just how much of the show's logic is thrown for a loop because of the resolution to the story the creators came up with. Just why is Titus Welliver shaking those dang trees?
How can Ben summon and direct the Smoke Monster when the Smoke Monster is the Man in Black?
Why does standing in between two giant electromagnetic thingamajigs send your soul to a quasi-purgatory afterlife place?
Sayid dies and becomes evil but Desmond just gives him a talking to about love and that cures him of being said evil? I mean Desmond is awesome but really?
Why do the Others, who are natives(-ish) of the Island pretend to be scientists that pretend to be savage hobo natives?
What was up with all the pregnancy stuff?
One could write a whole book on how Jacob's Cabin and everything about it makes no sense.
And on and on and on.
The video brought up a good point in how once a mystery is solved you should be able to go back and re-experience it from your new, enlightened vantage point and see how it all fits together nicely. LOST does the exact opposite, the plot machinations of the show, the very engine that drove it is completely destroyed with the slightest bit of scrutiny.
Yep, it's my pet theory that the "flash sideways" really were meant to be a parallel timeline at first. Seems crazy that they'd change their mind about something so major during the last season, but that's what it looks like to me.
I really can't agree. The characters were actually butchered time and again (as the videos explain).
Sorry, but they dug their own grave. What a scam that show ended up being.
And thats it; nobody is mad at Twin Peaks for having so many mysteries and random things...it marketed the strangeness and mysteries as just a part of the atmosphere of the show. Lost? The writers insisted everything was planned at the time and the show itself loved to wink at the viewers like, "Wait till we tell you what this is, its gonna blow your mind!"
As a character study its such a great show, both acting and flashback writing. But that plot even if you stripped out all the mysteries...lolz
Its strongly set up as a parallel universe. They even carry out actions and get into trouble. Its not an afterlife until back of the season.
Most of season 5 is poor but its made even poorer by the fact the Nuke did nothing. What was the point of that whole time travel plot?