Renting is Better Financially Than Buying a House

LGHT_TRSN

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Oct 25, 2017
4,776
I rent out a property I purchased which gives me a profit after expenses and allows me to deduct my HOA fees. Not only am I building equity but I also have additional cash on hand every month to play with and invest if I want to.

My friend is renting out rooms in his house to subsidize his mortgage and bring his monthly cost down far below rental costs for the area.

I get that it depends on the market, but buying gives you flexibility in other ways that you don't get renting, and let's not pretend that the stock market is going to be untouched in a housing market crash.
 

Window

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Oct 27, 2017
7,223
The numbers in the OP seem to be chosen to prove the point better, for example if you take a 40 or 50 year time period instead of 100 then the returns on each are closer. Either way though, even if you take OP's numbers you still come out better with buying (10% on stocks, 4% on real estate, with 3% inflation).

For example, take a situation where someone has $100,000 and can either rent or buy a house:

1) Renter
Puts $100,000 in S&P stocks
Get's 10% return
$100,000 * 0.10 = $10,000 per year (+ compounding interest)

2) Buyer
$100,000 allows the person to put 20% down on a $500,000 house.
4% return (which is on the entire property, not only the down payment)
$500,000 * 0.04 = $20,000 per year (+ compounding interest)

The power with owning is that you make money on other people's money (the banks money). With this example I am even helping the rentals argument by forcing 20% down, which is not required everywhere.

Also, other monetary advantages with owning are:
-A portion of your monthly costs go to pay off the mortgage. Therefore every month you are "saving" a portion of this money. This is not the case with renting.
-You get tax incentives to own. For example the gov't allows you to depreciate a portion of your home every year and you can use that to lower the tax burden on your normal income. There are (usually) no tax incentives with renting.

Both of these can be substantial, depending on your situation.

Now closing costs are real and can be a lot of money (like OP stated, 6% +) and generally the seller pays almost all of the closing costs. Therefore, if you do plan to move in less than 3 years, it's probably better to rent.

Of course there are a bunch of considerations when renting vs buying. How long are you planning to live there? Do you want to take care of maintenance or want someone else to? Would you feel over-leveraged with a house? How much do the tax incentives help you? Are you able to you trade well enough, without panicking, to get 10% in stocks without someone else handling it and taking a portion? The cost for rent is decided by the market and can be more or less than the total expenses of owning, so how advantageous is it in your city? etc. These need to be thought about before making a decision.
And what about the cost of borrowing i.e. interest payments on the loan? As said before, that has substantial impact on your net returns. Leveraging absolutely allows you to accelerate your returns than investing just your own cash but that's only true when the gap between the cost of borrowing and annual expected returns is sufficiently wide. Plus there's the opportunity cost of investing the difference between rent and mortgage repayments+city council taxes/rates+owners corporation fees (if rent is lower than these payments - which it certainly is where I live).
 
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mattiewheels

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Oct 27, 2017
3,121
Property tax in a city like Miami is so bad, it’s basically rent even if you’ve paid off your home. I know there’s cities where it’s really manageable but in other places it really messes with the idea that you’re free and clear once you’re paid off.
 

Deleted member 29676

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Haven't read such a divergent thread in a while. A lot of the initial argument is about the math and there isn't that much of it from people being confident of their arguments. Mostly reads like home buyers think buying homes are better and renters think renting is better.
It is because the number of variables that go into the decision is fairly large and specific on the market you live so broad generalization are almost worthless.

Plug in your individual situation here at this calculator. Then if you're feeling particularly nerdy do a few monte carlo simulations on potential returns for market and housing.
 

Tebunker

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Oct 25, 2017
3,843
Mortgage interest is deductible.
Not to a point where it can make that much of a difference financially compared to the total costs associated.

In fact deductible mortgage interest is a fallacy used to sell homes. Especially now with the much higher standard deductible.


Any way,

we had this kind of thread months ago and even as a home owner I could more easily make the case for renting and investing long term versus home ownership.

Home Ownership is a crapshoot and it should never ben used as a vehicle for making money. I bought my home for personal reasons.

All that said it is still a variable argument dependent on your situation and location.
 

Deleted member 17402

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Oct 27, 2017
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My GF and I have been looking to buy something in NYC, specifically the Forest Hills area, but the co-ops appeal more to us simply because they’re more affordable than condos. But I’ve heard bad stories of co-ops because of the board really making it difficult to resell your place or do much of anything. What would y’all recommend?
 
OP
OP

Sampson

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Nov 17, 2017
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Haven't read such a divergent thread in a while. A lot of the initial argument is about the math and there isn't that much of it from people being confident of their arguments. Mostly reads like home buyers think buying homes are better and renters think renting is better.
Mostly because when you actually do the Excel model you can't dispute it. This topic is mostly people saying how much money they've made on their house which is something I addressed in the first post.

I think most of the people who post here are under 35 and did not have a house during the crash.
 

tokkun

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Oct 27, 2017
3,201
Which would end up in one of two categories: untouchable because it is something with a specific duration, or decimated by the same thing that would tank the house market. In 2008, housing collapsed mainly in the US, the investment market tanked globally.
I would say that is partially true, but there are some significant differences.

- You can easily sell a portion of your stock portfolio. It is pretty hard to sell a portion of your house.
- If your stock portolio is down, you can sell and get some of your money back. If you are underwater on your mortgage, you cannot. Any proceeds would go to the bank. This is the problem of the heavy reliance on leverage.
- It costs a lot more to sell a house than to sell a stock. Selling a stock at a loss is basically free. Selling a house involves the realtor taking a few %, the cost of repairs and code issues, etc. It can be quite expensive in absolute terms.
- You don't need to sell your stocks in order to move to a new city to take a new job opportunity.

OK, so what investment class do you recommend that after 30 years will all of a sudden start paying all your rent and will continue to do so for the rest of your life? That's what home ownership gets you.
Say you are buying a $300K house, which is about the median detached home cost in my city. You have a 20% downpayment and 5% fees. Your upfront cost is $60K.

Imagine that you invest the $60K in the S&P 500. The long-term annualized real return for the S&P 500 is about 7%. After 30 years of compounding, your $60K is now worth $460K (in today's dollars). Comparatively the $300K house, at its 1% real appreciation rate, would now be worth $400K.

So I guess you could sell the stocks at that point and buy a house in cash. Or you could put the money in bonds and have them generate enough return to pay your rent.

I thought it was determined the people that went broke were people that should've never bought in the first place because of dubious mortgage approvals.
The use of subprime mortgage rates and irresponsible lending practices certainly contributed to the crash, but the damage caused by the crash was not limited to them. Plenty of people who lost their jobs and could not afford to pay their mortgages were not part of any irresponsible behavior.
 

joecanada

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Oct 28, 2017
3,651
Canada
No, you have to read and understand what market you're buying into. It's not luck that buying a house in the Bay Area in 2005 meant your house value increased. It was painfully obvious it would go up. What's luck is someone who bought in maybe the 70s and now has a house worth $2 million. That's luck, but someone in 2005? It was damn obvious the market was good here and for the foreseeable future.
Yeah anywhere on the west coast pretty much as I said. Also op mentions 2008 that was a region specific problem too. Never even registered here . So problems just like windfalls ate
Mostly because when you actually do the Excel model you can't dispute it. This topic is mostly people saying how much money they've made on their house which is something I addressed in the first post.

I think most of the people who post here are under 35 and did not have a house during the crash.
Or they simply held on to their house post crash. Or lived somewhere where the crash didn't even affect them.
Rent also goes up every year in most areas sometimes by default. When someone pays off their house I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the other person guessing how much rents will be in 25 years. Try that in a city with a .8 % vacancy rate and you normally end up overpaying or in a dump . Which brings it back to the original there's many more reasons to own a house than just the money.
 

sooperkool

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Oct 25, 2017
2,159
I owned both of my properties well before and after the crash. It really didn't phase me, I just kept pying my mortgage like always. Changed jobs twice, kept paying...what did anyone think was gong to happen?
 

onyx

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Dec 25, 2017
1,021
As a home owner I do miss some aspects of renting like not having to pay for or do repairs myself. On the other hand my mortgage is lower than what many people in my area pay for rent and my home's value has more than doubled in 5 years. I got my house during the crash.

I didn't want to buy a home until rent kept going up. My wife also found NACA and we didn't have to pay a ton of fees or high interest.
 

T8SC

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Oct 28, 2017
908
UK
I own my house outright. If I spent the same amount of time renting, I'd still be renting.

Buying a house is always the better option, unless you're one of the "I don't earn much but want to look like I do, so I'll rent a huge house & rent a posh car".
 

NarohDethan

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Oct 27, 2017
11,622
I own my house outright. If I spent the same amount of time renting, I'd still be renting.

Buying a house is always the better option, unless you're one of the "I don't earn much but want to look like I do, so I'll rent a huge house & rent a posh car".
Nah bro, this is one of the 'it massevely depends where you live' kind of thing. The downpayment for a decent house (not that big, in a place where it wouldnt take me three hours of commute daily) is nearly two years of my yearly income. That's just nuts!
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,211
Where do people get the idea that you can invest your money OR you can own a house lol. You can have BOTH. The mortgage is your rent. After that you can still invest your money.

Yeah you gotta take a hit on the down payment but that's fine.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,057
Say you are buying a $300K house, which is about the median detached home cost in my city. You have a 20% downpayment and 5% fees. Your upfront cost is $60K.

Imagine that you invest the $60K in the S&P 500. The long-term annualized real return for the S&P 500 is about 7%. After 30 years of compounding, your $60K is now worth $460K (in today's dollars). Comparatively the $300K house, at its 1% real appreciation rate, would now be worth $400K.

So I guess you could sell the stocks at that point and buy a house in cash. Or you could put the money in bonds and have them generate enough return to pay your rent.
In the UK, most first time buyers will have say a 15% deposit on a £200k home. So, starting with £30k, and investing in the FTSE which has an average real return of 5.4% over the past 20yrs. I couldn't find 30yr figures for the FTSE, but let's assume that it works out to about 7% if you reinvest all your dividends. That brings it up to nearly £230k in todays prices. Enough to buy a house, true.

The problem with this is that firstly, you've spent the entire 30yrs paying rent when you could have been paying off a mortgage at relatively low interest. The monthly payments of your mortgage are roughly static, only varying with interest rate fluctuations. You should assume that your mortgage rate will end up being about 5% and the current low rates are an anomaly that will correct in due course. During your 30yrs renting, your rent will be increasing in line with inflation whereas your mortgage is roughly static. It'll increase every time you move, but after that your debt will essentially be deprecating due to inflation, especially if your earnings keep up with inflation.

Also, if you're investing with a view to eventually buy a house then you're at the whim of the market. What if the market is in a bad spot when you plan to cash in? You might have to wait five years before things turn around. The way to get around that is to gradually transfer to bonds, but that lowers your return. This is basically the problem a lot of people got into here in the UK where they got endowment mortgages, but the endowment ended up being enough to actually pay the mortgage. At least if you're investing yourself in this case, you'd just be stuck renting a little longer and not with a mortgage you have to pay.

If your earnings are keeping up, that means more money to save an invest at a presumably higher rate than the relatively low rate you're paying on your mortgage. If you rent, the increasing rent payments will eating up a fairly static proportion of your income due to inflation.

Finally, there's the question of equity. When you're alive, you shouldn't think of your house as an asset. Housing costs are liabilities as far as I'm concerned, and you have to pay either through owning or renting. When you die though, there's the question of if you want to have built up an asset. If you have kids, housing wealth is one of the most reliable ways to transfer wealth between generations.

So, depending on the local housing market it might well be the case that renting is advantageous. I'll give you that. Anyone considering buying should absolutely crunch the numbers! But I also think that in many (most?) cases it's better to buy.
 

sooperkool

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Oct 25, 2017
2,159
Nah bro, this is one of the 'it massevely depends where you live' kind of thing. The downpayment for a decent house (not that big, in a place where it wouldnt take me three hours of commute daily) is nearly two years of my yearly income. That's just nuts!
Howso? 5% on a 200k loan is only 10k. You can get a loan with 5% down anywhere. A friend of mine bought his 2br/2ba condo for 150k with 5% down. Add taxes, insurance and PMI and his mortgage payment is $925 a month. In my area a 1br apartment in the same area is $1200/mo.

Edit: This is in the US and in the RTP area.
 

Y2Kev

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Oct 25, 2017
11,178
I thought about this a lot last year when I eventually bought. I am in the NYC metropolitan area and prices are outrageous. They've since dropped a bit, of course, because that's my luck. I do believe there's a secular trend of housing in this area going up and up and up though so provided I don't need to sell in the near-term, I should be OK. I am not "resource constrained" in the traditional sense of the term, so I was OK to not have to watch the return on the real estate "investment" and wonder about opportunity cost. I also watched my rent increase 17% in four years, so I didn't like what I was looking at there either.

That said, property taxes around here, while not a "second mortgage" (only because the first mortgage is so large), are significant. But I disagree with the perspective that treats property taxes as a "bill you never pay off." It is an assessment you owe because you own property; it is a repayment to the city that makes your equity so valuable some of that equity. And you can always realize the gain on your investment and get out.
 

FunkyMonkey

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Oct 25, 2017
1,419
Where were live, people are paying more to rent than what we pay in our mortgage. We paid almost no money down either, and I also invest my extra money.

Why is the op ignoring equity and the fact that you can invest AND pay your mortgage (also investing) instead of pissing away $1000 or more a month? Unless I missed it? This argument would work if your mortgage was 2x what rent would be, but here its not at all. It also depends on where you live and how much you make
 

FunkyMonkey

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Oct 25, 2017
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Howso? 5% on a 200k loan is only 10k. You can get a loan with 5% down anywhere. A friend of mine bought his 2br/2ba condo for 150k with 5% down. Add taxes, insurance and PMI and his mortgage payment is $925 a month. In my area a 1br apartment in the same are is $1200/mo.

Edit: This is in the US and in the RTP area.
100% this

Edit: sorry double post
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,246
- You can easily sell a portion of your stock portfolio. It is pretty hard to sell a portion of your house.
--> Only if it concerns stocks, not obligations, bonds or funds. And if you want a good portfolio, you'll have these in there.

- If your stock portolio is down, you can sell and get some of your money back. If you are underwater on your mortgage, you cannot. Any proceeds would go to the bank. This is the problem of the heavy reliance on leverage.
--> Only relevant if your mortgage is overrated compared to the actual value. Enough regulation in the EU where I live to handle this, and the Basels apply worldwide as well if I remember correctly. A lot of the problem was bankers recommending speculative mortgages. These mortgages were in no way necessary to actually pay for the houses in question.

- It costs a lot more to sell a house than to sell a stock. Selling a stock at a loss is basically free. Selling a house involves the realtor taking a few %, the cost of repairs and code issues, etc. It can be quite expensive in absolute terms.
--> But wouldn't come into play with a foreclosure.

- You don't need to sell your stocks in order to move to a new city to take a new job opportunity.
--> Just need to break your rental contract and pay the associated fees. You could also rent out your house yourself.
Answers inside. If you really want to invest, you are better off staying home as long as possible. I didn't waste money on rent, but used the money saved like this to get the home I wanted.
 

bawjaws

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Oct 28, 2017
2,520
Finally, there's the question of equity. When you're alive, you shouldn't think of your house as an asset. Housing costs are liabilities as far as I'm concerned, and you have to pay either through owning or renting. When you die though, there's the question of if you want to have built up an asset. If you have kids, housing wealth is one of the most reliable ways to transfer wealth between generations.
To be fair, that asset in the form of a mortgage-free property can be incredibly useful well before you die and pass it on as inheritance. For example, in old age you might need to move into care, and believe me those costs are eye-watering. Having a significant asset that you can realise to cover those costs could literally be a life-saver.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,057
To be fair, that asset in the form of a mortgage-free property can be incredibly useful well before you die and pass it on as inheritance. For example, in old age you might need to move into care, and believe me those costs are eye-watering. Having a significant asset that you can realise to cover those costs could literally be a life-saver.
This is also a very good point.

Basically, a lot of the time even all things being equal, it's better to have built up an asset than not.
 

NarohDethan

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Oct 27, 2017
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Howso? 5% on a 200k loan is only 10k. You can get a loan with 5% down anywhere. A friend of mine bought his 2br/2ba condo for 150k with 5% down. Add taxes, insurance and PMI and his mortgage payment is $925 a month. In my area a 1br apartment in the same area is $1200/mo.

Edit: This is in the US and in the RTP area.
I'm Mexico. $925 is more of what I make montly haha. Granted, I also happen to live in one of the most expensive cities in the country, but I'm kinda screwed because all IT jobs are either here or on another expensive city.

Also, I agree that buying is better in the long run, but in some cases, the entry barrier is just way too high. I could buy a house right now if I wanted, but it would be in the middle of nowhere, with barely any services, let alone the most important for my job (Internet), with no public transportation, and the house would be a 'shoebox house'.
 

Quixzlizx

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Oct 25, 2017
2,370
OP is painting with very broad strokes.

I for one will be mortgage free at 30 and never have a housing payment for the rest of my life. You can’t ever argue that that isn’t financially better off than renting. Just because people keep moving to bigger homes with bigger mortgages doesn’t mean that it isn’t a significantly better situation if you’re smart.

My wife and I aren’t in some crappy starter home or anything either. It’s a huge house in an amazing area.
If you're paying off your mortgage by age 30 in "a huge house in an amazing area," that either means you had a lot of help or you're already rich. Unless your idea of "amazing area" is considerably different from mine.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,057
I don't know what it's like in the US, but in the UK you can take out additional borrowing secured against your property ("second mortgage").
Actually, your mortgage provider will probably just let you borrow more against your property before you even have to consider that. You just increase your Loan-To-Value ratio and they'll give you the capital. You can probably do it without even getting an affordability check or anything, because it just increases the mortgage term.
 

Totakeke

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Oct 25, 2017
1,275
Yes you can buy a house and invest. But you can use all the money you used to buy the house to invest. Being able to do both has no bearing on whether buying a house is better than renting.

Having the house to pass down isn't different from passing down money or investments, they are all assets. What matters is what is the value of the asset that you're passing down. People are wrongly assuming that if you don't have a house, you have nothing to pass down.
 

Angry Grimace

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Oct 25, 2017
11,539
Those are interesting points, but I think it's an emotional issue where it's considered THE goal in life for a lot of people and nothing you say is going to convince them that they're wrong to have made that decision.

It's just kind of an irrational and emotional decision for so many people.
 

T8SC

Member
Oct 28, 2017
908
UK
That brings up a good point... is it better to buy a car or lease one? Using the arguments in this thread.
Buy. Unless of course you want to "keep up with the Jones'" by driving a BMW M4 when you only earn £18k. I'm waiting for PCP to fall out of it's own ass. Oh hey, I'll "buy" a car, drive it with limited mileage for 3 years then hand it back, hopefully i'll have a deposit saved to "buy" another car ... rinse & repeat. So until you die, you'll be spending X of your salary on a car you never own. (Until you wake up & purchase a car you can afford, even if it's a used one).

(When I say "you", I'm generalising).

Nah bro, this is one of the 'it massevely depends where you live' kind of thing. The downpayment for a decent house (not that big, in a place where it wouldnt take me three hours of commute daily) is nearly two years of my yearly income. That's just nuts!
How big are you wanting your house? Even in London you can buy a house, with the current state of interest rates, it's not impossible to afford the deposit with a bit of saving. Make sacrifices, don't drive a daft car, stop buying collectors editions and concentrate on owning a house. As has already been said above, £200k house, 5% deposit = £10k.

But this is the issue, people don't want a £200k house in London (or insert expensive other city) they want bigger and better than they can actually afford, therefore rent. Same goes with cars ... No I dont want a Ford Fiesta, I want a Range Rover, so I'll lease and pretend I own it.

Welcome to the modern age. It's garbage and full of wannabes.
 

NarohDethan

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Oct 27, 2017
11,622
Buy. Unless of course you want to "keep up with the Jones'" by driving a BMW M4 when you only earn £18k. I'm waiting for PCP to fall out of it's own ass. Oh hey, I'll "buy" a car, drive it with limited mileage for 3 years then hand it back, hopefully i'll have a deposit saved to "buy" another car ... rinse & repeat. So until you die, you'll be spending X of your salary on a car you never own. (Until you wake up & purchase a car you can afford, even if it's a used one).

(When I say "you", I'm generalising).



How big are you wanting your house? Even in London you can buy a house, with the current state of interest rates, it's not impossible to afford the deposit with a bit of saving. Make sacrifices, don't drive a daft car, stop buying collectors editions and concentrate on owning a house. As has already been said above, £200k house, 5% deposit = £10k.

But this is the issue, people don't want a £200k house in London (or insert expensive other city) they want bigger and better than they can actually afford, therefore rent. Same goes with cars ... No I dont want a Ford Fiesta, I want a Range Rover, so I'll lease and pretend I own it.

Welcome to the modern age. It's garbage and full of wannabes.
Actually I'm a bit of a minimalist, so I don't really want a big house. Nor I desire a big car (gas is expensive!). For me everything is about how long takes me to move through the city. A decent apartment (and even then, about 80m2) is like, a 1.2 million Mexican Pesos (50k GBP). It might not sound like a lot, but I barely make meets end to be thinking about a house. I'm 27, and def I didnt want to live with my parents anymore (nor I think they wanted me there lol).

Now, I'll admit that I'm also not very careful with my money. But I have friends who are, and even they have been thinking about this for a long, long time, and they actually agree with me that the asking price for houses or apartments is just insane.
 

Deleted member 4413

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Has OP addressed the fact mortgage prices are much cheaper than renting in a lot of places? Regardless of investment, house appreciation (or depreciation) or whatever, bottom line is that mortgage rates are much cheaper than renting in many places.

Cheaper mortgage equals more money I'm saving to invest vs spending it all on rent.
 

Deleted member 426

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Oct 25, 2017
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Can someone point to these stocks and shares that will guarantee me double the price of my house by the time I retire?
 

zou

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Oct 29, 2017
562
really depends on the market/region.

I own rental properties that make about 8500 EUR/y on a 65k EUR purchase price. So that's >10% net, which is great. The property I live in would be ~300k EUR to buy, but rent is only 12k EUR/y. So would be a shit investment.

So renting wouldn't make sense in the first example, whereas buying doesn't make sense in the second one.
 

cakely

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Oct 27, 2017
13,090
Chicago
One of the great myths of American culture is that buying a home is a "great investment" and is financially better than renting which is often derided as "throwing your money away" or "paying for someone else's mortgage". I'm sure if you're American, you're familiar with this line of thinking and might even believe it yourself (perhaps not if you're from a country like Germany or Switzerland where home ownership rates tend to be far lower). I see it crop up on this forum frequently in topics about buying a house.

I want to use this post to try to dispel this myth. On average, buying a home is worse for you financially than renting.

To be clear, it's not always a bad idea to buy a house. It's often a great idea to buy a home for lifestyle-related reasons. Perhaps you place great psychological value on the freedom home ownership gives you to repaint, remodel, install a pool, etc. Maybe you don't want to be forced to move if your landlord kicks you out. Maybe you want a certain type of home that's difficult to find as a rental, or have many dogs or strange hobbies that landlords shun. These are all entirely valid reasons to buy a home. But they are lifestyle-based, not financial.

"But I/my friend/my parents/my barber bought a home in 2009 and now it's worth 4X as much!" -- Yes, I'm sure that's true. Sometimes people buy houses and they appreciate significantly in value. Sometimes they sell them and make a lot of money. Also, sometimes people play the lottery and make millions of dollars.

Not everyone who buys a home is going to make a lot of money, just like not everyone who plays the lottery is going to make a lot of money. There are far fewer lottery winners than there are successful house flippers, but on average, most people don't make much money on their house. And many people lose a lot of money.

If you look at historical data on housing prices, you see that prices appear to rise steadily year-over-year. But this doesn’t take into account inflation, or the fact that the average house has been getting larger over time. If you adjust for these factors, you find that on average, house prices have only increased about 1% per year over the last 100 years, and on average, house prices experience a crash about every 10 years. Now some markets have done a lot better than others. If you bought a house in the Bay area 50 years ago you’ve probably made a small fortune. But if you bought a house in a place like Detroit, you may have lost everything. You might try to convince yourself wherever you're buying a house is the next San Francisco and not the next Detroit, but you're not a psychic. The future is inherently uncertain -- you just can't know.

On the other hand, the S&P 500 -- the most general stock market index -- has risen nearly 10% on average over the last 100 years. In other words, if you had put the money you spent on your down payment into a low-cost stock index fund, you would’ve done much better.

What’s more, buying and selling a house is very expensive -- you often pay a realtor 6% of the price. Stocks can be purchased for just a few dollars in commission (depending on your broker, maybe for free) and can be bought through tax-advantaged accounts (for most people, a Roth IRA is ideal). If you need the money, you can sell a portion of your stock portfolio. If you need to take money out of your house, you either have to sell it or borrow against it which is often expensive (you can refinance if the house has gone up a lot in value, but that's not always the case).

Will this continue in the future? What determines house prices?

House prices are a function of rent. A house is worth about 25X what someone would be willing to pay to rent it for one year. In other words, if you could rent it out to someone for $10,000 per year, the house should be worth about $250,000. In high growth markets like San Francisco, this ratio is closer to 40X, and in low growth markets like the rust belt, it’s closer to 15X. But the key idea is that the value of your house is determined by the potential rent.

Another thing people often believe is that the price of rent must reflect the cost of owning -- that the rent has to factor in the mortgage, taxes, maintenance, etc. This is not simply true. A landlord may have bought the house many years ago, paid it off, and have much lower costs than someone who is buying today. They may be renting it out at a loss. They may own hundreds of homes and have lower costs because of economies of scale (for example, a dedicated maintenance team). Rent is a function of what people are willing to pay. Not a function of what it costs to provide the home. Rents determine house prices. Not the other way around.

Some people say it’s a good idea to buy a house because rents keep rising, and they don’t want the risk. It’s true -- rents do rise over time. Sometimes they rise sharply, and they rarely fall. But they don’t rise as much as people think. Again, on average, only about 1-2% per year. And rents are highly correlated with the economy in a particular city. If you live in a city where the economy is booming, rents will rise in lock step with the boom. But that’s because the income in that area is also rising, so people can afford to pay more for the rent.

If you live in Houston, and the price of oil is high, rents are probably going to rise. But your income will probably rise, too. That’s not true for everyone. If you’re on a fixed income or have a job that’s not so closely linked to the economy (say you work for the government) you might end up getting priced out of the market, and be forced to move. This is a legitimate risk as a renter, but ignores the fact that owning a home is even more risky. If the boom ends, your income may drop -- you might even lose your job -- but now you’re stuck with a mortgage you somehow have to find a way to pay or go into foreclosure.

In the short-term there can be fluctuations, but in the long-run, the stock market should always outperform the housing market. This is because if companies are not doing well, people are not going to be able to afford to pay high rents.

There are some exceptions to all of this. US veterans, for example, can get very favorable mortgage terms. Some people have jobs that gives them money towards housing, or other similar perks.

But for the average person, the ideal financial strategy is to rent something where the monthly rental payment is about the same as what you would’ve spent on a mortgage. Then take the money you would’ve spent on a down payment, taxes, and maintenance and invest it into a low-cost stock market index fund. After 30 years, it’s likely you’ll have a lot more money than your neighbor who bought a house.

Again, this is not to say no one should buy a house. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to buy one. And sometimes you can make a lot of money if you happen to get lucky. But don’t believe the people who try to tell you buying a house is such a great financial decision. It’s simply not true. Incidentally, there’s an entire industry dedicated to making you believe this myth -- the national association of realtors is one of the largest lobbyists in the United States.
Your topic, "Renting is better financially than buying a house" isn't accurate.

It's a decision that depends on a variety of important factors. In many cases, it's financially better to buy a house than rent.

"Invest in a low-cost stock market index fund" is also an incredibly conditional statement. It's not always going to be the correct decision. It might not be the correct decision right now.

For me, in my circumstances, buying was absolutely a great financial decision. The rent I collect covers my mortgage, property tax, maintenance and building improvements, and utilities with room to spare. I also get tax deductions for property tax, mortgage interest, amortization, and a big chunk of that money I spend on improvements.

I also get to live exactly like I want. Do I want a rain shower and heated floors in my bathroom? No problem. Do I want a room with an entire floor-to-ceiling wall of books? Can do. Do I want a top-tier kitchen with a 6-burner dual-fuel wolf range? I can do that. Renting would certainly reduce or eliminate many of the options of how I'd like to live.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
22,975
That brings up a good point... is it better to buy a car or lease one? Using the arguments in this thread.
Buying. In almost every scenario is better. Problem is so many people lease cars because they want to make people think they have money. You can get into a very expensive car pretty cheaply on a lease vs buying.

Buying a car, while with poor depreciation it’s still a sellable asset, vs leasing where you can’t recoup any money back.
 

Tragicomedy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,819
The argument that people who owned houses during the recession suffered more than stock market investors also doesn't hold water.

I owned two houses during that time. The effects were different all over the nation, and if you could afford your mortgage before you could afford it after. I still own those homes, still rent them for a profit, and continue building equity.

How did the stock market perform during that time? That's rhetorical. Did you keep buying when prices went down? Most didn't, as we know from sell off rates.
 

Catdaddy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,851
TN
Didn't read all 8 pages but "tangible vs intangible" - I'm in the financial world and owning gives bonus points period. and yes my home doubled in value in 13 years. My daughter who is 25 rents a house with a friend equal size an 2x my mortgage...

Real estate is an investment and renting is more expensive than buying because the entity that owns the where you live is adjusting prices to reflect the cost of their mortgage + expense costs + profit. Say what you want but people you rent from OWN the real estate and are doing so to make a profit... I've heard this argument before and while home ownership does come with risks don't think for a fucking minute that when a new roof is needed in a rental unit someone (renter) isn't paying for it.. Now you can move every year to "possibly" outrun this but is it worth the hassle? When you have a family, the answer is more than likely ...no...

EDIT: leasing a vehicle is bad, that's why dealers want you to..
 

Survivortype

Member
May 2, 2018
597
Van City
Renters going to rent and buyers going to buy. Let the renters pay off the buyers' mortgages while renters invest in the stock market. The renters can use the profits from their stock investments to pay more rent to the buyers. Buyers can take that money and buy more properties and support more renters.

Such is the circle of rent vs buy
 

Dracor

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8
Calgary, AB
And what about the cost of borrowing i.e. interest payments on the loan? As said before, that has substantial impact on your net returns. Leveraging absolutely allows you to accelerate your returns than investing just your own cash but that's only true when the gap between the cost of borrowing and annual expected returns is sufficiently wide. Plus there's the opportunity cost of investing the difference between rent and mortgage repayments+city council taxes/rates+owners corporation fees (if rent is lower than these payments - which it certainly is where I live).
Yep, it all depends. In my city the cost of the mortgage (including principle and interest) + insurance + taxes + maintenance is about the same as renting, but every city is different. Renting is it's own market, and if the cost of rent is lower than these payments then that should be a consideration. Like I said, there are so many things to consider, and both the interest rate on a mortgage and the rent in the area are definitely two of them. Renting may be cheaper or more expensive than owning, depending on the markets at the time.

Also, as we are comparing an individual renting vs buying we assume this person needs a roof over their heads. They either have to buy this asset, or have to rent it from someone else. Therefore we are comparing the return from the leveraged debt to the $0 return from rent. A monthly mortgage payment uses the amortization in it's calculation. Every month you pay off the accrued interest + part of the mortgage, with the intent being that at the end of the amortization period you have paid off your mortgage. Therefore, your monthly mortgage payment pays off some of the principal and you won't accrue more debt. If this mortgage payment + expenses is similar to renting in your area, you come out ahead.

Finally, the rate on your mortgage will probably be the cheapest debt you ever have. It's usually the only vessel most people have to leverage their funds at a low rate. Try going to a bank to borrow money to invest in the S&P 500 and see what they say.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,275
Finally, the rate on your mortgage will probably be the cheapest debt you ever have. It's usually the only vessel most people have to leverage their funds at a low rate. Try going to a bank to borrow money to invest in the S&P 500 and see what they say.
Not sure what this is supposed to prove. Assuming they say no, what does that mean?
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,334
Siloam Springs
One of the great myths of American culture is that buying a home is a "great investment" and is financially better than renting which is often derided as "throwing your money away" or "paying for someone else's mortgage". I'm sure if you're American, you're familiar with this line of thinking and might even believe it yourself (perhaps not if you're from a country like Germany or Switzerland where home ownership rates tend to be far lower). I see it crop up on this forum frequently in topics about buying a house.

I want to use this post to try to dispel this myth. On average, buying a home is worse for you financially than renting.

To be clear, it's not always a bad idea to buy a house. It's often a great idea to buy a home for lifestyle-related reasons. Perhaps you place great psychological value on the freedom home ownership gives you to repaint, remodel, install a pool, etc. Maybe you don't want to be forced to move if your landlord kicks you out. Maybe you want a certain type of home that's difficult to find as a rental, or have many dogs or strange hobbies that landlords shun. These are all entirely valid reasons to buy a home. But they are lifestyle-based, not financial.

"But I/my friend/my parents/my barber bought a home in 2009 and now it's worth 4X as much!" -- Yes, I'm sure that's true. Sometimes people buy houses and they appreciate significantly in value. Sometimes they sell them and make a lot of money. Also, sometimes people play the lottery and make millions of dollars.

Not everyone who buys a home is going to make a lot of money, just like not everyone who plays the lottery is going to make a lot of money. There are far fewer lottery winners than there are successful house flippers, but on average, most people don't make much money on their house. And many people lose a lot of money.

If you look at historical data on housing prices, you see that prices appear to rise steadily year-over-year. But this doesn’t take into account inflation, or the fact that the average house has been getting larger over time. If you adjust for these factors, you find that on average, house prices have only increased about 1% per year over the last 100 years, and on average, house prices experience a crash about every 10 years. Now some markets have done a lot better than others. If you bought a house in the Bay area 50 years ago you’ve probably made a small fortune. But if you bought a house in a place like Detroit, you may have lost everything. You might try to convince yourself wherever you're buying a house is the next San Francisco and not the next Detroit, but you're not a psychic. The future is inherently uncertain -- you just can't know.

On the other hand, the S&P 500 -- the most general stock market index -- has risen nearly 10% on average over the last 100 years. In other words, if you had put the money you spent on your down payment into a low-cost stock index fund, you would’ve done much better.

What’s more, buying and selling a house is very expensive -- you often pay a realtor 6% of the price. Stocks can be purchased for just a few dollars in commission (depending on your broker, maybe for free) and can be bought through tax-advantaged accounts (for most people, a Roth IRA is ideal). If you need the money, you can sell a portion of your stock portfolio. If you need to take money out of your house, you either have to sell it or borrow against it which is often expensive (you can refinance if the house has gone up a lot in value, but that's not always the case).

Will this continue in the future? What determines house prices?

House prices are a function of rent. A house is worth about 25X what someone would be willing to pay to rent it for one year. In other words, if you could rent it out to someone for $10,000 per year, the house should be worth about $250,000. In high growth markets like San Francisco, this ratio is closer to 40X, and in low growth markets like the rust belt, it’s closer to 15X. But the key idea is that the value of your house is determined by the potential rent.

Another thing people often believe is that the price of rent must reflect the cost of owning -- that the rent has to factor in the mortgage, taxes, maintenance, etc. This is not simply true. A landlord may have bought the house many years ago, paid it off, and have much lower costs than someone who is buying today. They may be renting it out at a loss. They may own hundreds of homes and have lower costs because of economies of scale (for example, a dedicated maintenance team). Rent is a function of what people are willing to pay. Not a function of what it costs to provide the home. Rents determine house prices. Not the other way around.

Some people say it’s a good idea to buy a house because rents keep rising, and they don’t want the risk. It’s true -- rents do rise over time. Sometimes they rise sharply, and they rarely fall. But they don’t rise as much as people think. Again, on average, only about 1-2% per year. And rents are highly correlated with the economy in a particular city. If you live in a city where the economy is booming, rents will rise in lock step with the boom. But that’s because the income in that area is also rising, so people can afford to pay more for the rent.

If you live in Houston, and the price of oil is high, rents are probably going to rise. But your income will probably rise, too. That’s not true for everyone. If you’re on a fixed income or have a job that’s not so closely linked to the economy (say you work for the government) you might end up getting priced out of the market, and be forced to move. This is a legitimate risk as a renter, but ignores the fact that owning a home is even more risky. If the boom ends, your income may drop -- you might even lose your job -- but now you’re stuck with a mortgage you somehow have to find a way to pay or go into foreclosure.

In the short-term there can be fluctuations, but in the long-run, the stock market should always outperform the housing market. This is because if companies are not doing well, people are not going to be able to afford to pay high rents.

There are some exceptions to all of this. US veterans, for example, can get very favorable mortgage terms. Some people have jobs that gives them money towards housing, or other similar perks.

But for the average person, the ideal financial strategy is to rent something where the monthly rental payment is about the same as what you would’ve spent on a mortgage. Then take the money you would’ve spent on a down payment, taxes, and maintenance and invest it into a low-cost stock market index fund. After 30 years, it’s likely you’ll have a lot more money than your neighbor who bought a house.

Again, this is not to say no one should buy a house. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to buy one. And sometimes you can make a lot of money if you happen to get lucky. But don’t believe the people who try to tell you buying a house is such a great financial decision. It’s simply not true. Incidentally, there’s an entire industry dedicated to making you believe this myth -- the national association of realtors is one of the largest lobbyists in the United States.
Nice ad hominem.

I know math is hard.
Yes I discredited you, because you though you were talking from a point of actual knowledge rather than a theory.

How about you give some real statistics as to how I'm incorrect instead of the old, "it's them not me, right?"
 

onyx

Member
Dec 25, 2017
1,021
It really depends on where you live and whats going on in your life. If you can invest 50k instead of buying a home then go for it. I think you should do both if youn can.

I didn't want to buy a home but rent kept increasing. My wife also discovered NACA which helped a lot. There was no large down payment , the fees weren't half as bad, and our interest rate is very low. The value of the house doubled in a few years. Our mortgage is less than the rent of many people we know.

We'll have our investments and home in 30 years. If the home values keep increasing at the rate their going it'll be worth a small fortune. We didn't buy the home as a retirement vehicle though so we'll still be fine if the value suffers.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,534
I have a fully paid off house so I don't have to pay mortgage or anything. I can do what I want with my house. Just got solar panels to save even more money. I dunno, I like it just fine. Of course, I don't live in the US, so that's an important difference.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,526
If you buy a house for $150000 it's yours forever, renting a house, that money will rent a place for about 15yrs.
Yes there are maintenance for the house but if the house is in good condition it's not bad, especially if you do repairs yourself.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,057
Has OP addressed the fact mortgage prices are much cheaper than renting in a lot of places? Regardless of investment, house appreciation (or depreciation) or whatever, bottom line is that mortgage rates are much cheaper than renting in many places.

Cheaper mortgage equals more money I'm saving to invest vs spending it all on rent.
No, that point hasn't been addressed. I've hinted at it a couple of times in my posts, but I think it's worth an answer from anyone who thinks renting is better:

So, to put it to anyone who wants to answer: First, what about the fact that in straight cash terms most homeowners actually spend less per month on a mortgage than they do on rent? Also, what about the fact that not only do they spend less from day one, but in real terms homeowners mortgage payments decrease year on year while rental payments either increase in line with, or some markets faster than, inflation?