I disagree, if the game is less played that means that it fails to pull public beyond its niche and that for me means it doesn't deserve to be rewarded as high as games that are are able to pull more public.I saw some people asking for weighted votes and tagging me so, since the poll creators kindly made their full data available, here's the Top 20 on a Bayesian Average, like we do at the RPG Codex:
The big winners are mostly the same, but I think it's nice to reward great games that less people played, like Hollow Knight and Trails in the Sky.
- The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 3,10
- Super Mario Odyssey 2,62
- Nier: Automata 2,58
- Persona 5 2,53
- Horizon: Zero Dawn 2,50
- Divinity: Original Sin II 2,33
- Yakuza 0 2,31
- Hollow Knight 2,27
- Playerunknown's Battlegrounds 2,19
- Xenoblade Chronicles 2 2,18
- Prey 2,08
- The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd 2,06
- Assassins Creed: Origins 2,02
- Nioh 1,99
- Resident Evil VII 1,96
- Night in the woods 1,94
- Cuphead 1,93
- XCOM 2: War of the Chosen 1,93
- What Remains of Edith Finch 1,92
- Danganronpa v3: Killing Harmony 1,92
Anyway, kudos to the poll organizers, I know well how much work these polls demand. o7
I saw some people asking for weighted votes and tagging me so, since the poll creators kindly made their full data available, here's the Top 20 on a Bayesian Average, like we do at the RPG Codex:
The big winners are mostly the same, but I think it's nice to reward great games that less people played, like Hollow Knight and Trails in the Sky.
- The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 3,10
- Super Mario Odyssey 2,62
- Nier: Automata 2,58
- Persona 5 2,53
- Horizon: Zero Dawn 2,50
- Divinity: Original Sin II 2,33
- Yakuza 0 2,31
- Hollow Knight 2,27
- Playerunknown's Battlegrounds 2,19
- Xenoblade Chronicles 2 2,18
- Prey 2,08
- The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd 2,06
- Assassins Creed: Origins 2,02
- Nioh 1,99
- Resident Evil VII 1,96
- Night in the woods 1,94
- Cuphead 1,93
- XCOM 2: War of the Chosen 1,93
- What Remains of Edith Finch 1,92
- Danganronpa v3: Killing Harmony 1,92
Anyway, kudos to the poll organizers, I know well how much work these polls demand. o7
I disagree, if the game is less played that means that it fails to pull public beyond its niche and that for me means it doesn't deserve to be rewarded as high as games that are are able to pull more public.
Like for example your list totally dismiss Splatoon 2.
Not everyone has access to every platform or hears about every game. If a niche is extremely passionate about a game, maybe it deserves a second look from others as well - more than a game that a lot of people played but felt lukewarn about it.I disagree, if the game is less played that means that it fails to pull public beyond its niche and that for me means it doesn't deserve to be rewarded as high as games that are are able to pull more public.
my problem with this method is that using a bayesian average on a relative ranking like you're doing makes no sense. What if someone loves every game 1-5 on their list near equally, but thinks number 6 is much lower? The difference between 1 and 2 on a list could be anything because it's a relative ranking of favorites, not an absolute score. Hell, one person's number one game could be an 8/10 for them if they didn't play many games they loved that year, while another might give 1-4 all 10/10s.Not everyone has access to every platform or hears about every game. If a niche is extremely passionate about a game, maybe it deserves a second look from others as well - more than a game that a lot of people played but felt lukewarn about it.
Splatoon 2 is #12 on the original poll, but only 4 of its 347 voters rated it as the #1 game of the year. Meanwhile 37 of the 175 people who voted for Hollow Knight ranked it #1. That means 21% of people who played it absolutely loved it, while in Splatoon 2 that number is 1%.
I disagree, if the game is less played that means that it fails to pull public beyond its niche and that for me means it doesn't deserve to be rewarded as high as games that are are able to pull more public.
Like for example your list totally dismiss Splatoon 2.
Not everyone has access to every platform or hears about every game. If a niche is extremely passionate about a game, maybe it deserves a second look from others as well - more than a game that a lot of people played but felt lukewarn about it.
Splatoon 2 is #12 on the original poll, but only 4 of its 347 voters rated it as the #1 game of the year. Meanwhile 37 of the 175 people who voted for Hollow Knight ranked it #1. That means 21% of people who played it absolutely loved it, while in Splatoon 2 that number is 1%.
Agreed, that's why I use a 1-4 scale at the Codex. But how's what I done any different from the Era's current poll? I'm just working with the data I have.my problem with this method is that using a bayesian average on a relative ranking like you're doing makes no sense. What if someone loves every game 1-5 on their list near equally, but thinks number 6 is much lower? The difference between 1 and 2 on a list could be anything because it's a relative ranking of favorites, not an absolute score. Hell, one person's number one game could be an 8/10 for them if they didn't play many games they loved that year, while another might give 1-4 all 10/10s.
Lol, I am sorry but what? How you say that, the vote is ranking based not score based, you can't say only 1% absolutely loved splatoon.Not everyone has access to every platform or hears about every game. If a niche is extremely passionate about a game, maybe it deserves a second look from others as well - more than a game that a lot of people played but felt lukewarn about it.
Splatoon 2 is #12 on the original poll, but only 4 of its 347 voters rated it as the #1 game of the year. Meanwhile 37 of the 175 people who voted for Hollow Knight ranked it #1. That means 21% of people who played it absolutely loved it, while in Splatoon 2 that number is 1%.
I think I agree with your opinion even more than the one I gave before myself.I think we are arguing a deeper question here. Why do we do GotY voting?
To promote underappreciated games? If that's the case we should just ban Zelda and Mario from the vote, because those games will sweep floor no matter how you change the way you vote and they are in no way underappreciated.
Or are we celebrating and rewarding the games we enjoy the most of the year? In that case the current system is good enough. People don't feel "lukewarm" towards Splatoon 2, they care enough to put it in their top 10. The vote shows more people enjoyed Splatoon 2 this year than Hollow Knight, it's simple as that.
Popular voting by default is a bad way to promote hidden gems. And trying to represent hidden gem in popular voting is self-contradictory. If you really want to recommend a game, you should make a thread about it instead of burying it among a thousand other votes. That's why media GotY lists usually do the job of digging hidden gems better than community votes.
Personally I have a lot of other sources for hidden gems: there gotta be a hundred media GotY lists out there, and Hollow Knight is well represented in many of them. But REF GotY vote is special to me because as a part of this community, I want to know the general consensus, the most comprehensive representation of our own taste in videogame. I want to know what games most people in this community enjoy, not what a small niche is passionate about.
Point is, you can have both. Zelda and Mario still won when using weighted votes.I think we are arguing a deeper question here. Why do we do GotY voting?
To promote underappreciated games? If that's the case we should just ban Zelda and Mario from the vote, because those games will sweep floor no matter how you change the way you vote and they are in no way underappreciated.
Or are we celebrating and rewarding the games we enjoy the most of the year? In that case the current system is good enough. People don't feel "lukewarm" towards Splatoon 2, they care enough to put it in their top 10. The vote shows more people enjoyed Splatoon 2 this year than Hollow Knight, it's simple as that.
Popular voting by default is a bad way to promote hidden gems. And trying to represent hidden gem in popular voting is self-contradictory. If you really want to recommend a game, you should make a thread about it instead of burying it among a thousand other votes. That's why media GotY lists usually do the job of digging hidden gems better than community votes.
Personally I have a lot of other sources for hidden gems: there gotta be a hundred media GotY lists out there, and Hollow Knight is well represented in many of them. But REF GotY vote is special to me because as a part of this community, I want to know the general consensus, the most comprehensive representation of our own taste in videogame. I want to know what games most people in this community enjoy, not what a small niche is passionate about.
You are totally ignoring that people can play a game a not put into in their top 10. This argument makes no sense.Point is, you can have both. Zelda and Mario still won when using weighted votes.
And I disagree: more people PLAYED Splatoon 2 than they played Hollow Knight - 347 vs 175 - but clearly Hollow Knight left a stronger impression. This is quite easy to compare:
Look at how many people ranked Hollow Knight as their #1 or #2, while few did that with Splatoon 2. It was a good game, but definetly not the best they played.
Point is, you can have both. Zelda and Mario still won when using weighted votes.
And I disagree: more people PLAYED Splatoon 2 than they played Hollow Knight - 347 vs 175 - but clearly Hollow Knight left a stronger impression. This is quite easy to compare:
Look at how many people ranked Hollow Knight as their #1 or #2, while few did that with Splatoon 2. It was a good game, but definetly not the best they played.
There are a thousand of them if you haven't noticed. You'd better off read Polygon's top 50 games of the year.The real way to dig out underappreciated gems you might enjoy is to read people's comments in the voting thread.
Again we're left with the problem that people can play games and not vote for them in this system. I played a bunch of games I didn't vote for because they wouldn't get points regardless and I didn't feel like bothering with honorable mentionsFinal thing I'll do then. Here's a visual representation of Era's vote:
Draw your own conclusions.
Again, you can't equal voting as playing.Final thing I'll do then. Here's a visual representation of Era's vote:
Draw your own conclusions.
There were a bunch of games I played this year that I really enjoyed but didn't feel earned a vote in my top 10. Hell, in one case Stardew Valley only fell outside my top 10 because despite qualifying and this being my first time playing it, it didn't feel right to give points to a game that was a 100% straight portSo what? If you didn't list it among your best 10 games of the year, then clearly you don't consider it all that great.
Again, if it's not even among the 10 ten games you played this year, why the hell should it matter in a GOTY voting?There were a bunch of games I played this year that I really enjoyed but didn't feel earned a vote in my top 10
Final thing I'll do then. Here's a visual representation of Era's vote:
Draw your own conclusions.
I'm not saying it should, I'm saying that equating the number of people who voted for a game to the number of people who played it and also voted is fundamentally flawed regardless.Again, if it's not even among the 10 ten games you played this year, why the hell should it matter in a GOTY voting?
You are missing the point. You are using data that iis meant for a ranking system and using it like a scoring system.So what? If you didn't list it among your best 10 games of the year, then clearly you don't consider it all that great.
If you just want to find which games are the most played, go after sales numbers or something like that.
I'm not saying it should, I'm saying that equating the number of people who voted for a game to the number of people who played it and also voted is fundamentally flawed regardless.
I mean, I'd argue what he's doing is no different. Honestly, there are games I absolutely adore that would benefit from his voting system (Trails in the Sky the third being the prime example in that it jumps to the top 20 from below the top 100 in this system). At the end of the day, what he's arguing is essentially to put more weight onto the placement in the list rather than the number of votes. But it's not like the system we're using didn't already weight a number 1 vote differently to a number 10 vote, so it's basically saying my way of weighting is more correct because it gets the games I personally prefer higher on the list.This is all semantics if you ask him. The data is useful since it gives you an idea of how much people who voted for a game care enough to show how much they enjoyed certain titles. In the old site they had a category for that "Game with more number 1 votes" or something like that. In the end, this is just a tool. I really don't understand why people (I don't mean you btw) have so much against certain games or certain types of games, that they'd do anything to try to downvote/punish a game in a thread about celebrating gaming.
It is the same data tho, just with a different presentation.This is all semantics if you ask him. The data is useful since it gives you an idea of how much people who voted for a game care enough to show how much they enjoyed certain titles. In the old site they had a category for that "Game with more number 1 votes" or something like that. In the end, this is just a tool. I really don't understand why people (I don't mean you btw) have so much against certain games or certain types of games, that they'd do anything to try to downvote/punish a game in a thread about celebrating gaming.
That's not an argument, it is a mistake that I pointed in the graph.Actually, "you can't equal voting as playing" is not what I'm arguing for.
I think popular voting, no matter the format, always comes down to the games that most people played. Divinity won GotY on RPGCodex? No shit. I bet everyone on that forum played it.
Final thing I'll do then. Here's a visual representation of Era's vote:
Draw your own conclusions.
I mean, I'd argue what he's doing is no different. Honestly, there are games I absolutely adore that would benefit from his voting system (Trails in the Sky the third being the prime example in that it jumps to the top 20 from below the top 100 in this system). At the end of the day, what he's arguing is essentially to put more weight onto the placement in the list rather than the number of votes. But it's not like the system we're using didn't already weight a number 1 vote differently to a number 10 vote, so it's basically saying my way of weighting is more correct because it gets the games I personally prefer higher on the list.
Actually, "you can't equal voting as playing" is not what I'm arguing for.
I think popular voting, no matter the format, always comes down to the games that most people played. Divinity won GotY on RPGCodex? No shit. I bet everyone on that forum played it.
Look at IMDB top 250. It uses very sophisticated algorithm to take account for both popularity and score, yet the list is just 250 good and famous movies. I've heard about all the films on that list and have watched most of them. Compare it to a list form Sight & Sound and the difference is obvious.
My point is, what games people play the most is exactly what I want to know from our own GotY list. Apparently we don't have a lot of PC gamers here, and we prefer single player games, especially Japanese ones. And somehow XB2 is extremely big on our forum. Persona 5 lower than it should be shows the backlash is real. That's more valuable information to me than "Hollow Knight is great". I know Hollow Knight is great because we've got multiple threads on this forum about Hollow Knight. You know what is also great? A Mortician's Tale. None of us, or people at RPGCodex, voted for it. I heard it from Polygon.
I showed to you with data in this thread that more people has played NieR than Persona 5, the other 3 games are a given too. You keep pushing this narrative despite the fact that there's really nothing that supports this claim, other than a few comments of some users very vocal about their opinion of this game.
Final thing I'll do then. Here's a visual representation of Era's vote:
Draw your own conclusions.
I mean, if you are very disappointed by a game, you just don't vote it right? What data reflects that? The discrepancy between the most anticipated game vote and the GotY vote is pretty obvious.
BTW I believe the Polygon list has games that none of us vote for. Further proof that popular voting by default is bad for digging hidden gems.
Yeah actually both systems seem to be using ordinal data as interval data? I think the weighted mean system is a bit better than the Bayesian system, but the latter does give that nice image.You are missing the point. You are using data that iis meant for a ranking system and using it like a scoring system.
Cool graph.Final thing I'll do then. Here's a visual representation of Era's vote:
Draw your own conclusions.
Very late response, but I just wanna emphasize how right this is. I don't think any actual publications awarded this game the title it deserved.
An amazing community effort - well done everyone!
Splatoon 2 as best shooter rather than PUBG though...hmmm. Not a lot of PUBG love on these forums :-)
Same.
Is MS not considered a publisher any more? Or did they seriously just not make it on the publisher list?
the individual genre stuff isn't really indicative of anything because they were all taken from the main goty rankings. so it's not that Splatoon 2 is the best shooter necessarily, it's that Splatoon 2 is the best game that just so happens to be a shooter. no one actually voted on a shooter category.
Splatoon 2 is the best shooter ever made tho ;p