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Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,629
I'm not against changing it though as mentioned, it'll need explained a lot with any new players to the community since it's the common term everywhere else. If it got changed and someone used it repeatedly, its a difficult thing to try to handle as a gamerunner. And for me, it's hard to break a habit after 5-6 years of being used to it.
 

Fireblend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Costa Rica
I wouldn't mind changing it. I've also been using the term for years but it's not like it's hard-wired into my brain. And I don't think saying "oh, we use X instead of lynch in this community" to a newbie is some sort of impassable or hard to explain thing. We don't have to enforce the change with an iron fist either, we could just progressively change it starting with those who feel more comfortable and I bet the replacement would just catch on. The same way I'm more than happy to use someone's preferred pronoun(s), I'm happy to stop using the word if it bothers people, which is not a new sentiment. Same reason the word isn't used in the vote tool at all.

I'd lean towards "flip" like someone else suggested. It's already a word we know, that fits well within the context and doesn't require us making up any new game terminology. Regardless of the result of this discussion I bet if I started using it exclusively instead of lynch, people would barely notice, which I will.
 

malus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,947
I wouldn't mind changing it. I've also been using the term for years but it's not like it's hard-wired into my brain. And I don't think saying "oh, we use X instead of lynch in this community" to a newbie is some sort of impassable or hard to explain thing. We don't have to enforce the change with an iron fist either, we could just progressively change it starting with those who feel more comfortable and I bet the replacement would just catch on. The same way I'm more than happy to use someone's preferred pronoun(s), I'm happy to stop using the word if it bothers people, which is not a new sentiment. Same reason the word isn't used in the vote tool at all.

I'd lean towards "flip" like someone else suggested. It's already a word we know, that fits well within the context and doesn't require us making up any new game terminology. Regardless of the result of this discussion I bet if I started using it exclusively instead of lynch, people would barely notice, which I will.
Problem with "flip" is that it also refers to a general kill in the game, so could be a bit confusing.

I like defenestration because it sounds sophisticated. Then we can also refer to someone who votes for themselves or a jester as an autodefenestrator.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Would you mind explaining that a bit? I'm probably ignorant. After glancing at wikipedia, is this a US centered issue? As a european I seem to miss the historical context for understanding the graveness of the situation? Does lynching specifically refer to the murder of afro americans?

I'm trying to understand here, dictionaries seem to describe lynching as the act of a mob killing someone without legal trial (as in what we do/pretend to do/play).

Not American but my understanding is that hate groups performed lynchings to terrorise the black population in the US

Pretty much what turmoil said. I'm European as well but i definitely associate the word with the American racial context. It's the first thing that comes to mind.

I like lunch, because my phone seems to autocorrect to it anyway. Plus, I hunger for blood.

I'm all for lunch!

we could then use mulo and lulo.

mislunch/lose and lunch/lose

:D

I like this delicious alternative and will use it from now on, unless another official replacement is decided on.
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to try and wean it from their vocabulary when playing, but ultimately it's hard to enforce. Having to modkill or forcibly replace someone because they used a word that may not have any negative connotations in their part of the world would just be a bad experience for both that player and the gamerunner.
 

tellNoel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
Sorian brings up a great point with the term being global and reteaching new people to our community about the change would be a minor obstacle.
When I joined this community it was my first time playing mafia and when I heard the term lynch, being American, I immediately associated it with bad things that have happened in our history unfortunately, so it kinda through me off at first.
But that has long since passed.
From what I know, no one I've played games with has ever used the term in a disrespectful way to cause me to think it's personal or demeaning or a reference to things of the past.
With that being said, I totally understand if someone finds it uncomfortable to use because if it was uncomfortable for me at first, I'm sure others might find it even more offensive.
 

*Splinter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,088
I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to try and wean it from their vocabulary when playing, but ultimately it's hard to enforce. Having to modkill or forcibly replace someone because they used a word that may not have any negative connotations in their part of the world would just be a bad experience for both that player and the gamerunner.
I don't think it needs to result in modkill, similar to pronoun usage where reminders have been enough. And I'd say this is less of an issue than using the wrong pronoun.

I'm not sure it even needs to be enforced at all tbh, I'm just gonna start using flip instead, as FB suggested.
 

Fanto

Is this tag ok?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,863
Yeah there are plenty of different words that I can use, I think it can just be a self-enforced kind of thing. I've been trying to say things like "take out" or "go for" instead lately, which at least sound a bit more like euphemisms for violence rather than just a straight up violent word.

Euphemisms for violence also fit in with a Mafia theme I would think in general, so saying we're going to make someone "sleep with the fishes" or other phrases like that might be fun to use instead lol.
 

empressdonna

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,096
Scotland, United Kingdom
I've seen people use lunch before because of autocorrect and it always confused me since even prior to playing my first game here, I was so used to see lynch on another forum that played mafia and the games here.

I don't mind not using it but I do worry for a while, I'll still use it because I'm used to it.
 

Alexem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,335
Essex, UK
It's a tricky one. There's no denying that the term has very negative connotations, but I have to admit that it does suit the idea of the game. Mafia is, after all, a game about the dangers of mob mentality and all that it entails. That's not a reason to get precious about continuing to say it, though - my only real concern about using an alternative would be if it made us as a community look overly stand-offish to newcomers who might be used to calling eliminations lynches.

Having said that, we don't really run that many 'vanilla' games with plain town and mafia factions - they're almost always themed somehow. With that in mind, perhaps a tidy compromise might be to use a term that suits the flavour of each game? So, for instance, in a game where town are playing the role of the police, they might 'arrest' players instead of lynching them. That, of course, would be something to implement at the game runner's discretion so that things don't get overcomplicated.
 

Pedro

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,967
The problem with each person choosing their own alternative is that it could be difficult for people to understand each other, especially newbies who will be reading about lunches and mobbing and flipping, etc., which is why I think a single alternative would be simpler for everyone.

And like malus said, "flip" already means something else, but these other suggestions could work.
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
I don't think it needs to result in modkill, similar to pronoun usage where reminders have been enough. And I'd say this is less of an issue than using the wrong pronoun.

I'm not sure it even needs to be enforced at all tbh, I'm just gonna start using flip instead, as FB suggested.
To be fair, pronoun usage absolutely can result in a modkill - it almost did in a recent game. That being said, I don't think it has come to that yet and this is perhaps a notch below correct pronoun usage as far as actionable offenses.

I still think just generally trying to internalize the change and hoping it naturally spreads is the best option. If we try and land on one specific word to use instead then at that point it becomes a rule, and rules have to be enforced with penalties.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I've brought this up before so I'm in favor. I agree it's tricky to make something regional a modkill issue but for some people it's a really abhorrent term. I would like to see something implemented slowly - a suggestion that becomes a rule? I really hate it.
 

RetroMG

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,732
Why not just kill? That's generally the end result of a lynching, but it's less... targeted.
"Who should we kill today?"
"Ourobolus has been killed!"
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
short answer: stop using the word

"Lynching" maybe has a fair use case as part of the original Werewolf theme (that 'old village' fantasy/horror setting), which is kind of grimy and horrible overall. When you think of people getting their pitchforks and torches, you think of that setting. So I can see where people think it's a fine word to use.

But we really can't even begin to put the real history of lynchings behind us. Your parents and grandparents were probably alive while people in the US were getting lynched....and if you've never listened to those victims tell their stories of the violence inflicted on their families, you might not understand the really raw anguish that people feel about that word.

We should all be here to have fun, and welcome anybody who wants to play. I hope we don't normalize words that some people are gonna look at and say "okay, nope, that's not for me". The worst thing to do would be to tell someone who might have a real claim to take issue with that word, "get over it, that's just the term we use". Especially as this game can get stresseful, tense, and sometimes angry. How we communicate this language combined with the emotions of the game? It's something we really need to take care and try to understand.

To be honest, "lynch" has never quite fit into the gangster theme of Mafia (and while I'm here, "hooker" is a pretty shitty term to use as well). But I take it you don't want to disappoint anybody who thinks the game thematically needs some teeth to be fun. Feel free to use "kill", "murder", "exile", "banish", or even "evict". I chose that last one for my game because it made more thematic sense, and I think that's a good thing to encourage. I don't think you need to modkill for using "lynch" if the theme is going with something else, but people can do their part to not use it and not normalize the term.
 

Swamped

Member
Oct 25, 2017
916
I really like that, using the flavor of the game to come up with an appropriate term. Like, a Scooby-Doo game would involve "unmasking" players, an iZombie game perhaps "infect", and a Fire Emblem game...I dunno, "flip for stats" or something?
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
Yes. I love the town hooker jokes but it's also straight out garbage.
What would the alternative be? The wiki lists prostitute and stripper which don't particularly seem any better.

I really like that, using the flavor of the game to come up with an appropriate term. Like, a Scooby-Doo game would involve "unmasking" players, an iZombie game perhaps "infect", and a Fire Emblem game...I dunno, "flip for stats" or something?
I mean ideas like this are clever, but while the game runner may be good at sticking to them I wouldn't expect 15-30 players, some of which are new to the game, others that may have played for years elsewhere but be new to us, to be able to perfectly follow the example. In general I think if we're all just more cognizant of it that'll help in the long run by setting a good example.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,145
Suits mafia can be

You just got Litt up.

Let's Litt Ouro.

Idk why I love that show so much. 😆
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
I need the next MafiEra game to have an overrider that publicly issues the command *truffle shuffle*:
 

Faddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,141
I'm not against changing it though as mentioned, it'll need explained a lot with any new players to the community since it's the common term everywhere else. If it got changed and someone used it repeatedly, its a difficult thing to try to handle as a gamerunner. And for me, it's hard to break a habit after 5-6 years of being used to it.

I agree with Kalor here.

I don't think it needs official action but if people just try to stop using the term it will naturally diminish over time.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Pummel Into Oblivion: Natiko

Throw Into the Volcano: *Splinter

The game-specific commands are great, but Febe would definitely lunch us all.
 

Fanto

Is this tag ok?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,863
qHv2y7r.gif
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,877
It's a tricky one. There's no denying that the term has very negative connotations, but I have to admit that it does suit the idea of the game. Mafia is, after all, a game about the dangers of mob mentality and all that it entails. That's not a reason to get precious about continuing to say it, though - my only real concern about using an alternative would be if it made us as a community look overly stand-offish to newcomers who might be used to calling eliminations lynches.

Having said that, we don't really run that many 'vanilla' games with plain town and mafia factions - they're almost always themed somehow. With that in mind, perhaps a tidy compromise might be to use a term that suits the flavour of each game? So, for instance, in a game where town are playing the role of the police, they might 'arrest' players instead of lynching them. That, of course, would be something to implement at the game runner's discretion so that things don't get overcomplicated.
I like this idea the most, though like others have previously said it's liable to cause confusion between new players and those who relapse to lynch out of habit. But it really would be interesting to try, and maybe gamerunners could have their preferred kill term added to the game banner for more visibility.
 

Godfather

Game on motherfuckers
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,493
Guillotine: Hecht

I don't care what we call it, but I am very likely to lapse when I'm in a rush since it's been the default terminology for so long.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
Keep in mind that the common game commands, at least for this community, have always been VOTE: and KILL:

Nothing really has to change in how people play the game, besides the flavor used in flips and how people engage with that flavor (which changes all the time anyway).

What would the alternative be? The wiki lists prostitute and stripper which don't particularly seem any better.

You could go with the more functional term like "roleblocker", which I feel like we used for a while until something changed.
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
Keep in mind that the common game commands, at least for this community, have always been VOTE: and KILL:

Nothing really has to change in how people play the game, besides the flavor used in flips and how people engage with that flavor (which changes all the time anyway).



You could go with the more functional term like "roleblocker", which I feel like we used for a while until something changed.
Well "hooker" is a specific variation of it that's supposed to interact with another role in a unique way from a standard roleblock. I'm not against the change I just legitimately don't know what to use instead.
 

Godfather

Game on motherfuckers
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,493
Keep in mind that the common game commands, at least for this community, have always been VOTE: and KILL:

Nothing really has to change in how people play the game, besides the flavor used in flips and how people engage with that flavor (which changes all the time anyway).



You could go with the more functional term like "roleblocker", which I feel like we used for a while until something changed.

Hooker has specific connotations for other roles, i.e. it permanently neutralizes a specific town role. It could certainly be renamed, but in vanilla Mafia terms, it's not an unusual thing. Mafioso's and prostitution seem normal.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
Well "hooker" is a specific variation of it that's supposed to interact with another role in a unique way from a standard roleblock. I'm not against the change I just legitimately don't know what to use instead.

I know, but that's such a minor exception (one that I haven't seen used in our games, anyway) that it doesn't seem worth continuing to pay this weird, sexist tribute to it.

IMO it's more helpful to players (myself included) to call something by a more functional name, something that's clearer about what the role does, versus something much less obvious which I have to go look up.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
The point is, maintaining the inertia about something pretty insulting/gendered/sexist because "that's the way it's been done in the past" is just not good enough
 
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