Resident Evil 2 |OT| 1998... I'll never forget it

Oct 25, 2017
1,888
USA
re: Danielle Riendeau's Waypoint article

First, I think most people just have a hot take viewpoint on criticism.

The most common attribute people will assign to criticism is that it only occurs when someone disagrees with something about the media or art piece, and I will grant you that this is the most common occurrence.

I do not think that that is necessarily Danielle Riendeau's intent.

Criticism exists to be constructive. Criticism does not always equate the idea of "the thing failing to achieve a certain subjective desire" to "this thing is a failure."

Riendeau's article is basically stating, "I have some personal first responder and aid training that would be useful to a survival scenario like the one that my play time in Resident Evil 2 is putting me through. It sure would be great if we could apply some of the scenario based design of RE2 to a game where my kind of training fits in!" It's not saying Claire is a jerkbutt, it's just pointing out that Claire and Leon exist to respond to the situation with violent means. Is that new, unusual, or even particular bad in videogames? No, and Riendeau isn't really arguing that, and she even concedes that she knows why this is the prevalent videogamey response and videogamey logic to it all.

Riendeau publishing this viewpoint is not suggestive of the idea that Resident Evil 2 is bad, it's just not particularly stand-out or creative or unique within the realm of videogames. Some of you are even coming forward and saying, "Yeah there's nothing really that interesting about all of RE's story or characters -- they're endearing within my framework of understanding for what an action game is, but they sure aren't Shakespeare!"

Well, yeah. That's fine. That's even great. I like that stuff myself. RE2 Remake is probably my 2nd favorite game ever made now. Leon and Claire are iconic in my mind, both from being a fan of the original way back in 1998 to adoring this remake.

I still want to see a game that Riendeau suggests off of the back of her personal experience and the back of her play experience with RE2. I don't want to see that game exist as something that aims specifically to present itself as a work of art or media that surpasses Resident Evil 2 -- I just think it's a cool idea. Riendeau thinks that would make a survival horror more relateable to her, and I get that.

Anyway, tl;dr y'all being meaninglessly defensive and uptight, chill the fuck out.
 
Oct 28, 2017
688
Spain
I don't think anyone involved in the lap is gray. ^
I wholeheartedly agree, she's a horrible human being even if she had a moment of clarity towards the en in Claire's run.

That said, IIRC both in the original game and probably in this remake she was actually developing the vaccine, not the virus itself, so she might have not been so 'hands-on' as William was. At least she understood that the (unfinished) G virus shouldn't be out there, unlike her pos husband.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,021
I read the article a while ago, I think it's an understandable take on illogical video game logic, especially as it's likely coming from someone who isn't familiar with the original game, or possibly even Resident Evil in general.

We here all know this is based on a game from 1998 made by people coming from a Japanese perspective, but to most other people it's just a modern zombie game with the word "survival" in its description. That immediately brings up comparisons to stuff like The Walking Dead and more popular survival games. Really it's a look at how RE2's content and subject matter hold up in today's world.
I don’t think this is just a matter of outdated game meets modern expectations. We still have plenty of games that are just pure shooters, so expecting it to have more detailed role playing choices or being able to rummage through the scenery isnt some universal fact of modern gaming. Your average Fortnite player would expect less non-shooting mechanics.

I think it’s more like person with limited experience with “apples” tries “oranges”. The writer specifically mentions Life is Strange and walking simulators as her frames of reference. These are another kind of niche game that don’t define our current landscape, and are honestly a baffling set of games to bring up here. I think she just has a particular history with a narrow slice of games dominated by narrative choice and not action gameplay, and her expectations are therefore completely askew.
 
re: Danielle Riendeau's Waypoint article

First, I think most people just have a hot take viewpoint on criticism.

The most common attribute people will assign to criticism is that it only occurs when someone disagrees with something about the media or art piece, and I will grant you that this is the most common occurrence.

I do not think that that is necessarily Danielle Riendeau's intent.

Criticism exists to be constructive. Criticism does not always equate the idea of "the thing failing to achieve a certain subjective desire" to "this thing is a failure."

Riendeau's article is basically stating, "I have some personal first responder and aid training that would be useful to a survival scenario like the one that my play time in Resident Evil 2 is putting me through. It sure would be great if we could apply some of the scenario based design of RE2 to a game where my kind of training fits in!" It's not saying Claire is a jerkbutt, it's just pointing out that Claire and Leon exist to respond to the situation with violent means. Is that new, unusual, or even particular bad in videogames? No, and Riendeau isn't really arguing that, and she even concedes that she knows why this is the prevalent videogamey response and videogamey logic to it all.

Riendeau publishing this viewpoint is not suggestive of the idea that Resident Evil 2 is bad, it's just not particularly stand-out or creative or unique within the realm of videogames. Some of you are even coming forward and saying, "Yeah there's nothing really that interesting about all of RE's story or characters -- they're endearing within my framework of understanding for what an action game is, but they sure aren't Shakespeare!"

Well, yeah. That's fine. That's even great. I like that stuff myself. RE2 Remake is probably my 2nd favorite game ever made now. Leon and Claire are iconic in my mind, both from being a fan of the original way back in 1998 to adoring this remake.

I still want to see a game that Riendeau suggests off of the back of her personal experience and the back of her play experience with RE2. I don't want to see that game exist as something that aims specifically to present itself as a work of art or media that surpasses Resident Evil 2 -- I just think it's a cool idea. Riendeau thinks that would make a survival horror more relateable to her, and I get that.

Anyway, tl;dr y'all being meaninglessly defensive and uptight, chill the fuck out.
Eh I don't know, I'm all for applying a different lens in how we judge/view/assess our video games, but the assertions within her article seemed still too much of a reach and ignores a lot of the context surrounding this game. To use one of your points, she's applying the sort of analysis you would for Shakespeare to a piece of media that's more akin to a popcorn action movie.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,888
USA
Eh I don't know, I'm all for applying a different lens in how we judge/view/assess our video games, but the assertions within her article seemed still too much of a reach and ignores a lot of the context surrounding this game. To use one of your points, she's applying the sort of analysis you would for Shakespeare to a piece of media that's more akin to a popcorn action movie.
I'd further argue that no piece of media is free of having any other lens applied to it, including "Shakespeare level analysis," regardless of the media's intent or intellectual level, too.

I'm not trying to put you down -- in fact as far as this thread goes you're one of the users I respect the most for your robust tip-giving (which has directly aided my play experience) and your various achievements within the game... I just don't think we're really seeing the forest for the trees as a community in response to the article and we're focusing a negative response back at something that never intended to tear down the game at all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
743
I'd further argue that no piece of media is free of having any other lens applied to it, including "Shakespeare level analysis," regardless of the media's intent or intellectual level, too.

I'm not trying to put you down -- in fact as far as this thread goes you're one of the users I respect the most for your robust tip-giving (which has directly aided my play experience) and your various achievements within the game... I just don't think we're really seeing the forest for the trees as a community in response to the article and we're focusing a negative response back at something that never intended to tear down the game at all.
I don't think it's meant to tear down the game, I agree. But I don't really understand the point the article is trying to make either. Like I read it twice and I really don't get it. I guess she wants a gameplay mechanic where you rescue other survivors? Just sounds like she wishes it was a different game altogether
 
Oct 27, 2017
247
Malmö
I love this game so much, beat it twice again today just for kicks. I found myself with no ammo at the last boss of my S+ Claire A hardcore run... lucky for me, turns out you can just slash G down from the back with a knife once he falls to his knees.

That infinite ammo minigun is sooo gooood
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,888
USA
I don't think it's meant to tear down the game, I agree. But I don't really understand the point the article is trying to make either. Like I read it twice and I really don't get it. I guess she wants a gameplay mechanic where you rescue other survivors? Just sounds like she wishes it was a different game altogether
My entire interpretation of the article is basically this:

" I am playing Resident Evil 2. Resident Evil 2 is a game that features characters thrust into a clear emergency problem. I participate in a profession that responds to emergency problems, but not quite like the videogamey approach that these characters take: armed with guns and strong combat prowess and confident attitudes. I think it might be neat if there were ever a game that presented a scenario like the one in Resident Evil 2 but allowed me to apply my actual first responder skillset and mentality, and maybe made the characters a bit more vulnerable to the realities of the situation and social realities that existed prior to the emergency they find themselves in. That would be an interesting game and I think from my personal experience responding to emergencies, might be able to convey a more powerful story to its players."

To be clear, I don't think anywhere in her article does she necessarily say "I wish Resident Evil 2 was THE game that I'm saying that I wish existed." She's just saying she played RE2 and feels like it has a videogamey disconnect from her actual experiences dealing with emergency situations, and provides areas using RE2's framework where a game with a more poignant message and portrayal of emergency realities might exist. RE2 is the platform for her criticism but it is not a teardown of RE2 itself.
 
Oct 25, 2017
743
My entire interpretation of the article is basically this:

" I am playing Resident Evil 2. Resident Evil 2 is a game that features characters thrust into a clear emergency problem. I participate in a profession that responds to emergency problems, but not quite like the videogamey approach that these characters take: armed with guns and strong combat prowess and confident attitudes. I think it might be neat if there were ever a game that presented a scenario like the one in Resident Evil 2 but allowed me to apply my actual first responder skillset and mentality, and maybe made the characters a bit more vulnerable to the realities of the situation and social realities that existed prior to the emergency they find themselves in. That would be an interesting game and I think from my personal experience responding to emergencies, might be able to convey a more powerful story to its players."

To be clear, I don't think anywhere in her article does she necessarily say "I wish Resident Evil 2 was THE game that I'm saying that I wish existed." She's just saying she played RE2 and feels like it has a videogamey disconnect from her actual experiences dealing with emergency situations, and provides areas using RE2's framework where a game with a more poignant message and portrayal of emergency realities might exist. RE2 is the platform for her criticism but it is not a teardown of RE2 itself.
That makes sense but the article doesn't really read that way to me, and then the criticism of the police station being a safe zone seems off-topic if it's not a criticism of how the actual game is presented.

The headline -
I Wish 'Resident Evil 2' Let Me Be a More Compassionate Hero

and blurb:
'Resident Evil 2' is a scary, effective fantasy of permission and scarcity. But I want to be a different kind of survivor

suggests to me that she wishes RE2 were a different type of game, not that it gave her an idea for a cool EMT rescue zombie game.
 
Sep 12, 2018
1,581
Ireland
re: Danielle Riendeau's Waypoint article

First, I think most people just have a hot take viewpoint on criticism.

The most common attribute people will assign to criticism is that it only occurs when someone disagrees with something about the media or art piece, and I will grant you that this is the most common occurrence.

I do not think that that is necessarily Danielle Riendeau's intent.

Criticism exists to be constructive. Criticism does not always equate the idea of "the thing failing to achieve a certain subjective desire" to "this thing is a failure."

Riendeau's article is basically stating, "I have some personal first responder and aid training that would be useful to a survival scenario like the one that my play time in Resident Evil 2 is putting me through. It sure would be great if we could apply some of the scenario based design of RE2 to a game where my kind of training fits in!" It's not saying Claire is a jerkbutt, it's just pointing out that Claire and Leon exist to respond to the situation with violent means. Is that new, unusual, or even particular bad in videogames? No, and Riendeau isn't really arguing that, and she even concedes that she knows why this is the prevalent videogamey response and videogamey logic to it all.

Riendeau publishing this viewpoint is not suggestive of the idea that Resident Evil 2 is bad, it's just not particularly stand-out or creative or unique within the realm of videogames. Some of you are even coming forward and saying, "Yeah there's nothing really that interesting about all of RE's story or characters -- they're endearing within my framework of understanding for what an action game is, but they sure aren't Shakespeare!"

Well, yeah. That's fine. That's even great. I like that stuff myself. RE2 Remake is probably my 2nd favorite game ever made now. Leon and Claire are iconic in my mind, both from being a fan of the original way back in 1998 to adoring this remake.

I still want to see a game that Riendeau suggests off of the back of her personal experience and the back of her play experience with RE2. I don't want to see that game exist as something that aims specifically to present itself as a work of art or media that surpasses Resident Evil 2 -- I just think it's a cool idea. Riendeau thinks that would make a survival horror more relateable to her, and I get that.

Anyway, tl;dr y'all being meaninglessly defensive and uptight, chill the fuck out.
Thanks for putting into words what I couldn't.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,888
USA
That makes sense but the article doesn't really read that way to me, and then the criticism of the police station being a safe zone seems off-topic if it's not a criticism of how the actual game is presented.

The headline -
I Wish 'Resident Evil 2' Let Me Be a More Compassionate Hero

and blurb:
'Resident Evil 2' is a scary, effective fantasy of permission and scarcity. But I want to be a different kind of survivor

suggests to me that she wishes RE2 were a different type of game, not that it gave her an idea for a cool EMT rescue zombie game.
Like I've been trying to say -- RE2 is the framework for her critique, so it of course gets used that way. It's not entirely literal, I'd argue. She has to state what RE2 is actually doing and what she would rather see in its place. It should be more read between the lines as "I wish [a game like] Resident Evil 2 Let Me Be a More Compassionate Hero." She just springboards off of things like police stations being a safe haven and exploring the theme of that safe haven being taken away more intimately within the theoretical protagonists mind, or springboarding off of Marvin being a POC police officer and how real world politics might actual impact his ability to perform his duties in an emergency situation. It's not saying RE2 has a racism problem by NOT exploring that, she's just highlighting that as something she noted with her lens as she played RE2 and kinda wished there were a game that explored that opportunity a bit more. She is not necessarily saying that RE2 itself fails -- she has to constantly switch back to "well this is the way that RE2 actually presents it" as a means of holding up her thoughts, not as "well RE2 is a trash game for not bothering" statement.

Like, to be perfectly honest, I totally saw Claire just hip-carrying her pistol at the beginning of the game as she approached the convenience store and was like "oh wow they redid Claire to be an open-carry kinda gal." Even though in real life open-carry folks kinda creep me out and they immediately create an unease in me, I don't necessarily think I held onto that thought and let it "ruin" RE2 in any way. But it definitely made a pretty bold statement about the type of character Claire was going to be in this remake, and ultimately her other statements and actions over the course of the game have catapulted her to being one of my favorite RE characters in the entire franchise -- she is truly a badass and I feel that she is genuinely a caring person, but she kinda shows that by a lot of logic that in real-world context might make me feel a bit uneasy (open carry). That said, there's a clear distinction to me in the context of the RE universe and my long-held love for the franchise and my real-world experience and response to the types of people that Claire and Leon are. Contextually, they're fine, but there were moments where I was looking at the game with my real-world lens -- like me seeing Claire at the beginning before shit has popped off and being like "wow Claire is all about open carry now." And yet RE2 is my 2nd favorite game ever made. I love it to bits. Hell, I love Claire, but she didn't change my mind about feeling uneasy around open carry folks in real life.

And that's what I'm saying -- Danielle was probably still having a great time but probably just finding things a bit at odds with her own experiences responding to emergencies, similar to the way I kinda noted mentally that Claire now open carries her firearm. There's no other game besides Resident Evil 2 where I thought that was kinda suspect in recent memory.

And this happens to me frequently in games, and it doesn't really stop me from enjoying them. I don't write about games professionally so I'm not posting it to a site like Waypoint, but that's really what Waypoint aims to be about, so I don't... get why people find that upsetting. RE2 certainly tries to sell a sense of authentic dread and urgency to its scenarios, and Danielle is probably wired to just think about different things when it comes to that, like I'm wired to feel skeezed out by people that are proudly proclaiming that they're armed with visible open carry.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,600
Why are all the player death scenes so disapponting?
Apart from the zombie ripping your throat out, most of them are obscured or kinda weird and tame.
Like the plant guys can bite your head off and Birkin can crush your head but you don't really see it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,307
When you strip everything down, RE2 is an action/puzzle game. The reason it's so great is because it (and RE7) brings that action/puzzle formula to levels of design evolution and production values hitherto unseen, but it's still pretty much just an action/puzzle game. That fact might be off-putting to someone who isn't familiar with RE games and comes into RE2 from a completely different frame of reference, not knowing this was made specifically for fans of a game from 1998.

Like, to be perfectly honest, I totally saw Claire just hip-carrying her pistol at the beginning of the game as she approached the convenience store and was like "oh wow they redid Claire to be an open-carry kinda gal." Even though in real life open-carry folks kinda creep me out and they immediately create an unease in me
To be hones this brings up things I've intuited about Claire and Chris for a while now.
 
I'd further argue that no piece of media is free of having any other lens applied to it, including "Shakespeare level analysis," regardless of the media's intent or intellectual level, too.

I'm not trying to put you down -- in fact as far as this thread goes you're one of the users I respect the most for your robust tip-giving (which has directly aided my play experience) and your various achievements within the game... I just don't think we're really seeing the forest for the trees as a community in response to the article and we're focusing a negative response back at something that never intended to tear down the game at all.
Like I said, I don't mind looking at this game (or any piece of fiction) in a different lens. I just don't think she developed a well thought-out thesis in her article. From the way I read it, I saw several points that have some validity to them and are worth bringing up, but she just applied them to this specific game in a way I felt just doesn't fit. It's like she wants to make a much larger point about thematic issues in games, but then launches into a non sequitur about her previous EMS experience and wants that to fit into what the game clearly is not.

Maybe her article would have resonated with me better if it had used examples of several survival horror games (or even games in other genres), critiquing tropes within them, and then making her point. Because as it stands, she's trying to fit a lot of the common issues with modern gaming into just one singular game.

And no worries. I don't see your comments as a put down at all.
 
Sure, but the original point was that it was unrealistic for Claire to jump into the ring with a massive monster, which is just a dumb argument to make. Claire's story arc is a pretty standard hero journey. Step 1, do something for own purposes (look for brother, escape city), Step 2, have external factors influencing your character (meets Sherry, realizes there's something more important than just yourself), Step 3, rise up to the occasion ("I have the capability to stop this thing since Annette is incapacitated, and will do it to protect Sherry").

By saying that it was unrealistic would be saying it's unrealistic for a lot of fiction and media. Then we're just stuck with real life. Thank god that person doesn't write stories for us.
I’d have written a far more believable Claire. Some of the interactions and reactions were too far fetched, regardless of the prior situations and experiences they were put through a couple hours earlier in the night. Thank god you don’t write stories for us.
 
Oct 25, 2017
743
And this happens to me frequently in games, and it doesn't really stop me from enjoying them. I don't write about games professionally so I'm not posting it to a site like Waypoint, but that's really what Waypoint aims to be about, so I don't... get why people find that upsetting.
It's not upsetting. I just think it's unclear and winds up not actually saying much and lacks a clear purpose. Criticize a game all you want and use it as a springboard for a comparison, sure. I'm just not getting much out of this article. I like plenty of Waypoint content and I appreciate the stuff they do and I love the writers. This just falls flat for me.

Like I said, I don't mind looking at this game (or any piece of fiction) in a different lens. I just don't think she developed a well thought-out thesis in her article. From the way I read it, I saw several points that have some validity to them and are worth bringing up, but she just applied them to this specific game in a way I felt just doesn't fit. It's like she wants to make a much larger point about thematic issues in games, but then launches into a non sequitur about her previous EMS experience and wants that to fit into what the game clearly is not.

Maybe her article would have resonated with me better if it had used examples of several survival horror games (or even games in other genres), critiquing tropes within them, and then making her point. Because as it stands, she's trying to fit a lot of the common issues with modern gaming into just one singular game.

And no worries. I don't see your comments as a put down at all.
Yeah that's what I'm getting at. Just kind of seems all over the place.
 
There's nothing wrong with criticism- the ones in the article are just awfully dumb observations.

so I don't... get why people find that upsetting.
I doubt anyone's "upset" by a random article's opinion on the internet about REmake 2. I found it totally out there, like the dog ending from Silent Hill 2. It's like a medical scientist chiming in that you know, the science behind this G Virus thing is kinda iffy. These characters don't sound like real developed people- that's like asking sailors what they feel about the motivations of Captain Crunch.

Like, to be perfectly honest, I totally saw Claire just hip-carrying her pistol at the beginning of the game as she approached the convenience store and was like "oh wow they redid Claire to be an open-carry kinda gal."
I would also never in a million years make this connection nor apply that kind of logic to a video game, let alone the Resident Evil series.

Anyways. 4th Survivor is hard, I keep getting to the lobby and then losing it trying to find another way out.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,926
UK
Did they change Claire to a college student or is it something mentioned in the original that I just completely can’t remember? I know Elza Walker was definitely a Raccoon University student and I’m wondering if they took it from Elza or if she’s always been a college student?
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,279
Did they change Claire to a college student or is it something mentioned in the original that I just completely can’t remember? I know Elza Walker was definitely a Raccoon University student and I’m wondering if they took it from Elza or if she’s always been a college student?
She's always been a college student. They may have originally taken it from Elza, but it's been that way since the original RE2.
 
Oct 25, 2017
608
About to try the 14000 steps trophy, anybody have any tips or guides? It'll be my fifth playthrough but kinda hard for me to remember where everything is across the different scenarios.
If you want a video guide, this guy did a great guide for knocking out the 14000 footsteps, no heals and no box all in one playthrough. I did it yesterday, went really smooth and only took 1:40 so if you wanted to be a bit riskier you could do it on standard and get an S rank trophy if you need it too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCX3eBH5LRs
 
Nov 30, 2017
5,948
Random question, but anyone have the link to that twitter clip of Claire shooting a zombie until she yells out a really convincing "WHAT THE FUCK!"? Wanted to show it to a friend, but I cannot for the life of me remember what thread on here I saw it posted in.
 
Nov 10, 2017
1,635
It's because a lot of the points raised are outright bizarre. RE2 portrays our heroes as compassionate as they can be. Leon and Claire both want to save Marvin. Leon takes a bullet for Ada, Claire spends the entire game helping Sherry.

The police station is an unsafe haven for people of color... yeah, I don't think that applies during a zombie outbreak. It's us, the human race, versus them, the zombies. I don't think racism would be as prevalent in the fictionalized scenario the game paints for us. In addition to that, it's not like the game makes it a point to show the RPD is all sunshine and rainbows, as the chief is a vile, corrupt human being under the thumb of Umbrella. That, and Marvin, a POC police lieutenant, is one of the most human, most competent officers in the station, holding out longer than anyone else. There's certainly a place for social commentary in narrative driven games, but Resident Evil has never been about that, so it's a clear cut case of over-analysis here, in my opinion.

She then claims she wants to examine food packages at the gas station, like in Life is Strange... but this is a survival horror game where our main characters are just trying to make it through the night, not aimlessly read soup can labels?

Then the remorse about looting the first aid sprays and stuff, when there are no signs of human life in the entire station, Marvin aside. The place is a zombie and Licker infested hellhole, and from what we're inclined to believe, so is the rest of Raccoon City.

For the cherry on top, she complains about game logic, like using an herb to heal wounds. I can't take that criticism seriously, it's the ultimate reach.
okay, i read the article. & i'd say that actual title of it should be: 'i wish resident evil 2 was an almost completely different game' :) ...