Oh yes. It's sobering to say the least. Old games feel like shit on modern console systems.
What kind of latency do TV's have these days?
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Resolutions, Frame-rates, Polygon count, and load times are all cool - but can we please address input delay?
- Thread starter Exellus
- Start date
What kind of latency do TV's have these days?
yes my brain farted and I wrote the opposite. I since fixed the post.
Final Fantasy IX ports. The input delay is atrocious. I'd guess it at somewhere around 6+ frames.
If you get a good TV then in the 13-20ms range
If thirteen milliseconds is too laggy for you, you must be the flash or a pro Esports player.
Rockstar games are actually good examples of games that are fixed with hire frame rates. GTAV on consoles are unplayable to me, but on PC at a high frame rate it feels perfect. (This is both consoles and pc running on the same Qled screen)
That's not the whole story. Display latency is added on top of everything else - it's not the total latency.
Converting older analog consoles to digital is going to add some amount of latency in most cases, outside of expensive hardware mods.
If you are emulating the games, that process itself is going to add latency too - though newer emulation techniques on a VRR display can bring latency down to about what it was on a CRT now.
Even if you get latency the same as a CRT, motion clarity is not the same. Modern displays have significantly more motion blur than CRTs did, because they don't flicker.
Probably has something to do with CPU render ahead which can be reduced to 1 frame on PC. You also have the option to use Fast-Sync where the GPU renders just-in-time which can reduce input lag by an additional 1-3 frames.
Also, input lag tends to be extremely noticeable with mouse controls, which probably leads developers to address the issue more often on PC.
Agreed. I tried playing Fallout 4 on Xbox One at 30 fps and input lag was probably the worst I've ever experienced, and I'm pretty sure my TV was in game mode at the time. Maybe it's down to bad deadzones or something with joystick controls. When playing games on PC with Steam input, you can set the right analog stick to "joystick mouse", which makes it act like a mouse and become a lot more responsive. Whatever that is doing, it should be used for console games, imo.
It's been my contention for a while now that VR is the best way to play these old games. VR displays are insanely low latency, they pulse the screen in much the way the old CRT strobed them, and even the "screen door effect" actually looks good on these old games. I would imagine if you ran these emulators with run-ahead, it'd feel a little like cheating.
Does modern display = LCD to you?
Other technologies exist. OLED > CRT
OLED has the same full persistence that LCD does, and is more limited in what it can do with black frame insertion.
CRTs have significantly less motion blur than anything else. LCD monitors with ULMB are the next best thing, since you can get sub-millisecond image persistence with them.
OLED has the potential to be great, but currently is not.
Uh no, RDR2's input delay compared to other games is well documented:
Which ones? Because Ubi games are actually a good example of input response times on consoles.
Uh no, RDR2's input delay compared to other games is well documented:
Which ones? Because Ubi games are actually a good example of input response times on consoles.
Yes, Arthur takes longer to start an animation while walking without running. It's deliberate, like having to take items individually when searching a drawer.
Some like it, others don't. For me, it was the most immersive experience I've had on a game.
When you press a button and the animation STARTS delayed im not sure how that is immersion or good for anyone.
Do we have to count that this character you are moving also have brain and have to think what they want to do?
some 4K TVs are 15ms in game mode which is really low latency. the games are the problem, not the TVs.
Ah, yes, like in real life, I blank out and stand there, unmoving, just hesitating, before walking when I decide to walk.
Also fuck immersion if it comes at the cost of a game functioning as a game.
Street Figjter V returns. The eigt frames will rise again. At least there isn't much in the way of combos compared to other games.
Okay, we get it you don't like it. Doesn't mean that those that do's opinion is invalid.
We get that you love the realistic movement of Arthur because it matches your body's reaction time from deciding to move and moving.
apart from the odd title its barely noticeable in most games, especially higher fps ones.
RDR2 was a joke though. Luckily I Sold that crap and got my money back.
RDR2 was a joke though. Luckily I Sold that crap and got my money back.
I have to 100% agree with OP. I recently revisited some old games via Raspberry Pi emulation and it's just not the same. With technology these days you would think we could somehow revisit our classics and play them the way they were meant to be played (CRTs etc.) Although a lot of people don't care, having proper response is crucial, to me, to have a great experience. It's just not the same how pressing a button doesn't immediately result in an action like it used to. It's not going to stop me from playing any game, but is definitely a small factor in enjoyment.
I just hope next gen they try to lower control lag via wired, as it seems PS4 Wireless mode is the only one that does it right at the moment at the expense of battery life.
Also someone pointed out Samurai Shodown's input lag. I played it all weekend and it was the very first thing I noticed even with Game Mode on... This was on Xbox btw, with the game coming out in a month, I hope something can be done as Tekken also uses UE and has tried to reduce the lag. Guilty Gear is the gold standard as I recall with 3-4 frames.
Developers can't address our TVs, but Sony/Microsoft CAN address the control hardware.
I just hope next gen they try to lower control lag via wired, as it seems PS4 Wireless mode is the only one that does it right at the moment at the expense of battery life.
Also someone pointed out Samurai Shodown's input lag. I played it all weekend and it was the very first thing I noticed even with Game Mode on... This was on Xbox btw, with the game coming out in a month, I hope something can be done as Tekken also uses UE and has tried to reduce the lag. Guilty Gear is the gold standard as I recall with 3-4 frames.
Developers can't address our TVs, but Sony/Microsoft CAN address the control hardware.
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I think it's even worse in a game solely based on reaction / anticipation, but we'll see !
Its not an opinion though. It factually has bad input lag. Shifting the blame to "immersion" doesnt help matters.
If we go back to buttons that sense how hard you push, I suppose the input could be made to trigger before you've fully depressed it. It probably wouldn't make too much of a difference though.
Input lag in fighting games and re-releases of old games on different formats should absolutely be a thing that is covered by reviews and something that developers and publishers should seek to minimise.
A good game can have bad input lag and is instantly worse for that reason.
A good game can have bad input lag and is instantly worse for that reason.
It's not even immersive - GTAV has the same fucking problem. Humans aren't that slow, especially people who are actually fit and trained. Also, the deficiencies of such movement is made even more blatant in player-created game modes where the unresponsive, imprecise character movement can easily fuck you over, such as death run maps. It makes characters look like clumsy oafs.
I value tight, responsive controls over faux-"immersion" Rockstar presents.
Does your body respond slowly to brain signals or? Sluggish=/=immersion. If anything the exact opposite cause the game is resisting commands for an extended period of time. That's not how bodies work, and you can have elaborate animation details ANDDDD good response times. If they ever release RDR2 on pc minds are gonna be blown at how much better it feels.
Exactly like...
you must be confusing them with some other company because ubisoft is probably the best out of all of them in this area
Why would I waste my time playing an unresponsive trash game when I could be playing something tight and satisfying instead?
I say this in networking subjects because of airtime fixes people want to treat tech like it's the 90s or the last decade despite advances.
I feel 'unresponsive trash' is just hyperbole, not once in my 100+ hours of RDR2 were the control ever an issue. But hey, play what ever you like.
and none them based on testing are as fast as crt in the area he mentions. I'm still waiting for one post crt tech to become superior in this area.
Don't tell me it is show me exactly where a tv maker is stating it can draw a pixel in 1/18432000 of a second or less cause that's how fast crts are or can be in terms of visual response.
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Why don't you just use a CRT then? Some geeks still use them on their PCs. I don't know what games you guys play where you need a .001 nanosecond response time. I made it to Global Elite on a shitty 5ms TN panel.
I feel like this is a developer barrier rather than a technological hurdle. Destiny runs at 30 fps but has a 1-2 frame input delay.
I haven't played RDR2 specifically but as a general statement I stand by what I wrote. I have no patience for games that don't respect gameplay feel. Everything else is secondary to me.
Agreed. It would be one thing if these kinds of controversies in regards to input lag were common, but they are few and far in between. RDR2 and SF5 are exceptions, which then makes this thread feel like a bit of stealth brag rather than valid complaint. What we are really supposed to infer here seems to be somenthing along the lines of "check out my finely tuned gaming senses" or "I only settle for the most responsive games".
Its like, we get it, real life moves in slow motion for some of you, congratulations.
SF5's input lag has been fixed and is inline or better than a lot of fighters released today.
Because it was a problem.
Because input lag is fucking awful.
RDR2 apparently has 10+ frames of input lag (LMAO). Samurai Shodown demo just release with 8 frames, and pointing it out prompted a response from a community manager who says they're looking into it.
It's not few and far between, it's consistently happening and deserves to be talked about because that's how things get addressed.
What I don't get is responses like yours that pretty much just want to shut down conversation. If it doesn't bother you, then don't post?
You seem to be misunderstanding. I agree that there are examples where input lag is substantial, which is why i brought up the two most recent examples, SF5 and RDR2. You dont have to explain the details of those cases because i agree. However, it is not consistantly happening, and framing it as a big problem when controversies like these rarely arise makes it disingenuous. It is uncommon for games to have input lag issues.
Unfortunately, you're putting too much faith in a lot of people's ability to actually take the time to understand what you're asking.
Just looking at some of the replies in this thread shows some people will never get it.
I do especially for switch and older stuff.
it's not response it impacts image quality issues as well. A screen refreshing faster with a better image is very superior to a screen half the speed with similar iq and less dpi.
There are trade offs and we will never see a sed based sceeen come out so as I age I conpromise based on games or if it's competitive.
We use what we like you're not required to play games like I do or give a crap.
You're last comment has nothing to do with rank on a skilled setting. Case and point soul calibur 6. Top in state uses Ds4 the rest of us use sticks ranging from 30-400 dollars.
GDC 2019 had wonderful talk on subject.
Controller to Display Latency in 'Call of Duty'
There are many problems to solve even without any of the display latency or controller input problems.
Controller to Display Latency in 'Call of Duty'
There are many problems to solve even without any of the display latency or controller input problems.
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