Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More

Fuzzy

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,742
Toronto, Canada
I've got a couple CRTs and I think it's allllllmost time, in 2019, to move on. I've used Analogue consoles and I love them.

I'm interested in an OSSC, but I use some consoles with S-Video and even composite, and I don't want to modify these consoles to output RGB. Is there some convenient and lagless hardware I can throw into the chain there to fix this? Or am I mistaken in assuming that OSSC only supports RGB?
Basically OSSC only does component or RGB input so if you want s-video and/or composite then you'd have to use a retrotink2x (it also has component input) either alone or using it to feed the OSSC.


 

Oldmario

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,845
anyone happen to know if a thing such as a component and scart box exists? obviously they'd have to be separate connections in the box, can only seem to find scart and composite which i was thinking about just removing the composite ports and putting component into but i don't think there would be enough room
 

Fuzzy

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,742
Toronto, Canada
anyone happen to know if a thing such as a component and scart box exists? obviously they'd have to be separate connections in the box, can only seem to find scart and composite which i was thinking about just removing the composite ports and putting component into but i don't think there would be enough room
You mean a switch that handles both?

 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,607
A friend of mine was giving away his old Sony Bravia 32" LCD TV, you know, 720p only sets, but it had a couple of SCART sockets in it so I decided to give it a whirl with my PS2.

Im legit shook how good PS1 and PS2 games look on this thing, not sure if Sony did anything for their sets back then to accommodate the old consoles, but .... its kind of like the image quality of emulation on my PC monitor (native res with integer scaling). Played through SH1/2/3 and it just looked great throughout.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,167
I regret throwing out the Trinitron I bought for $20 off Craigslist a year ago, but the geometry issues on it really bothered me (the whole picture was rotated). Gonna try picking up another CRT locally.

I hear for retro gaming you should avoid CRTs with component inputs as they're worse at 240p and 480i? Dunno if there's any truth to that.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
Trying to imagine my 50 inch plasma as a CRT and how stupendously heavy it would be and how deep that tube would have to be.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,248
México
I regret throwing out the Trinitron I bought for $20 off Craigslist a year ago, but the geometry issues on it really bothered me (the whole picture was rotated). Gonna try picking up another CRT locally.

I hear for retro gaming you should avoid CRTs with component inputs as they're worse at 240p and 480i? Dunno if there's any truth to that.
HD CRTs are the ones to avoid (with certain exceptions). Standard Definition CRT with component inputs and S-Video are the best to get for 240p content.
 

Astral/H3X

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,400
And what's the best way to determine if a CRT is SD only if the seller gives no info?
Usually those will be the DLP widescreen TV's... And usually the TV will be printing HD all over it.
480p EDTVs *may* be fine, but typically once a manufacturer was making 480p a thing, they just went all the way to 720p stuff. Easier to get a VGA monitor for 480p.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,663
That Digital Foundry video finally compelled me to try hooking up a CRT (Sony CPD-220VS) I’ve had in my office to my computer. I’ve really only used it for my Dreamcast since it only has a VGA input.

But when I tried hooking it up, my computer didn’t give any resolution options or show any display. The GPU is an AMD Radeon R9 200 / HD7900 and I was using a DVI to VGA converter plug which I believe even came with the GPU. It recognized a display was attached, but that was about it.

Ended up just playing some Soul Calibur. Still looks gorgeous.

I was told this was the place to be for such questions. Any help would be appreciated.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
That Digital Foundry video finally compelled me to try hooking up a CRT (Sony CPD-220VS) I’ve had in my office to my computer. I’ve really only used it for my Dreamcast since it only has a VGA input.

But when I tried hooking it up, my computer didn’t give any resolution options or show any display. The GPU is an AMD Radeon R9 200 / HD7900 and I was using a DVI to VGA converter plug which I believe even came with the GPU. It recognized a display was attached, but that was about it.

Ended up just playing some Soul Calibur. Still looks gorgeous.

I was told this was the place to be for such questions. Any help would be appreciated.
I’d try doing a dual monitor setup with a flat panel first to see if you can adjust settings through one screen that will get the other one working.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,663
I’d try doing a dual monitor setup with a flat panel first to see if you can adjust settings through one screen that will get the other one working.
I was doing that. Maybe it was wrong for me to have 2 other displays going at the same time though. It’s how I could tell it recognized a display was attached, but Windows wasn’t giving me any options to set color or resolution or anything. It just showed it as display 3.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
Yeah cut down to 2. If that fails, try just booting up with the CRT. It might not be liking the different signals of the different screen tech.
 

Katsu Curry

Member
Jan 28, 2018
81
I picked up a JVC TM-H150CG today and I am very excited!

However, I would like to ask for some help regarding what I can play natively with the right cable and what I can play with some modifications.

It seems I could play easily play PS2/GC and up with female RCA to male BNC adapters. I would like to play some Genesis/SNES but it seems to get a little more involved.

Would someone be kind enough to give me a little rundown on the potential this display has as far as retro games go?

 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
I’m no CRT expert, but that looks like it’ll only do composite and S video. Composite requiring a BNC adapter, yeah.

Edit: underneath that black plate, you might be able to slide in an RGB and component module.
 

Augemitbutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,420
S-Video looks crazy good on these. You could start with that. Or start spending and buy an RGB card and cables. I would just start with a few games in S-Video and see how you like this new CRT lifestyle.
 

dubc35

Member
Oct 27, 2017
716
WA, USA
I picked up a JVC TM-H150CG today and I am very excited!

However, I would like to ask for some help regarding what I can play natively with the right cable and what I can play with some modifications.

It seems I could play easily play PS2/GC and up with female RCA to male BNC adapters. I would like to play some Genesis/SNES but it seems to get a little more involved.

Would someone be kind enough to give me a little rundown on the potential this display has as far as retro games go?
I'm not familiar with that model but based on the picture, Composite (RCA to BNC adapters on Video A & B) and S-Video (Y/C on Video B) are your only two options. PS2 and GCN OEM S-video cables would be the way to go. SNES S-video cables are pretty easy to come by (just avoid any that include the yellow composite plug because they're not really S-Video cables). Genesis is a little different, I think it needs to be modded for S-video and it's composite is terrible. My only experience is with my OG model 1 though.

Spend some time researching here: https://www.retrorgb.com/systems.html

All of that said, there is that covered blank section above the inputs that may indicate an ability to display a version of RGB with an additional input card.

edit, and yeah what they said, lol
 

Katsu Curry

Member
Jan 28, 2018
81
I'm not familiar with that model but based on the picture, Composite (RCA to BNC adapters on Video A & B) and S-Video (Y/C on Video B) are your only two options. PS2 and GCN OEM S-video cables would be the way to go. SNES S-video cables are pretty easy to come by (just avoid any that include the yellow composite plug because they're not really S-Video cables). Genesis is a little different, I think it needs to be modded for S-video and it's composite is terrible. My only experience is with my OG model 1 though.

Spend some time researching here: https://www.retrorgb.com/systems.html

All of that said, there is that covered blank section above the inputs that may indicate an ability to display a version of RGB with an additional input card.

edit, and yeah what they said, lol
Thank you ! 😊
 

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
611
S-Video looks crazy good on these. You could start with that. Or start spending and buy an RGB card and cables. I would just start with a few games in S-Video and see how you like this new CRT lifestyle.
Truth. S-Video looks so unbelievably good on them. You can feel free to get component/RGB to optimize for its own sake, but once I saw S-video on my JVC, I thought, “This is it.” Exactly how I always wanted my PS1/2 games to look.
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,607
Anyone know what the cause of this is on a CRT ? Essentially any bright areas cause it to "bleed" all the way to the right. Hopefully this photo shows what im getting at -

 

Astral/H3X

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,400
Picked up a 1953Q this weekend. Hoo boy, this puppy is loud. I'm definitely gonna have to go through and resolder the transformers to try and bring that down.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
Video of PS2 HDMI internal mod


I see combing when the cubes scroll up or down. Line doubling it is.

Edit: Combing is a sign that this is doing what the Ultra HDMI does. A quick and dirty 2 field deinterlacing. Not too bad.
 
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Fuzzy

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,742
Toronto, Canada
Mike Chi's new RAD2x in partnership with Retro Gaming Cables. Cheap console specific beginner HDMI out that converts RGB to 480p HDMI. If no RGB is detected then it line doubles composite out automatically.

 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,599
Pacifica, CA
Mike Chi's new RAD2x in partnership with Retro Gaming Cables. Cheap console specific beginner HDMI out that converts RGB to 480p HDMI. If no RGB is detected then it line doubles composite out automatically.

Even better, it supposedly switches between 240p and 480i really quickly. I'll have to pick one of these up for my Saturn, as the delay in resolution switching on other solutions had for the longest time killed my interest in replaying the Saturn version of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (which is actually my favorite version of the game).
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,607
Mike Chi's new RAD2x in partnership with Retro Gaming Cables. Cheap console specific beginner HDMI out that converts RGB to 480p HDMI. If no RGB is detected then it line doubles composite out automatically.

Just had the email regarding this, shit, I think its exactly what I want, and considerably cheaper than the alternatives (in the UK anyway). Will be getting one for the PS2.
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,607
Any idea what "Built-in anti-aliasing LPF" means? Not really aware of what this is, this isnt a thing like the mCable does is it?
 

Polyh3dron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,962
Any idea what "Built-in anti-aliasing LPF" means? Not really aware of what this is, this isnt a thing like the mCable does is it?
It’s processing the signal and filtering out low frequency information from it. The whole point of digital cable connections is to have a 1:1 copy of data that come from the source, but these mCable products are treating these connections like they’re in the analog domain and need processing. I’m not a fan.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
It’s processing the signal and filtering out low frequency information from it. The whole point of digital cable connections is to have a 1:1 copy of data that come from the source, but these mCable products are treating these connections like they’re in the analog domain and need processing. I’m not a fan.
If that’s really what you’re looking for, then internal HDMI mods are the only true digital solutions from source to display and most of them preserve integer scaling. The RAD cables all plugging into analog ports and convert analog to digital - which leaves them subject to the level of quality of the DAC circuitry inside the console. They might apply the LPF on the incoming analog side before conversion(?).
 

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
611
All the RAD box does is convince me there's better stuff coming.
I really hope you're right. I can't wait for someone to eventually release a basic 240p-to-4k nonupler with a scanline option. I'd even be fine with a windowboxed octupler, if that also works best for quadrupled 480i/p content (though I understand if that wouldn't be others' cup of tea).

But in the meantime, this is an easy, relatively-inexpensive option--especially if you'd just want it for one console line. Do love how it handles 240p/480i switching, too. That's the biggest selling point, to me. I don't need this, but I hope some others (say, those without a CRT who still want to play Chrono Cross on original hardware) find it useful.
 

Polyh3dron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,962
I really hope you're right. I can't wait for someone to eventually release a basic 240p-to-4k nonupler with a scanline option. I'd even be fine with a windowboxed octupler, if that also works best for quadrupled 480i/p content (though I understand if that wouldn't be others' cup of tea).

But in the meantime, this is an easy, relatively-inexpensive option--especially if you'd just want it for one console line. Do love how it handles 240p/480i switching, too. That's the biggest selling point, to me. I don't need this, but I hope some others (say, those without a CRT who still want to play Chrono Cross on original hardware) find it useful.
A 4K TV should be able to display 720p pixel for pixel, and 720p displays 240p perfectly.
 

Beer Monkey

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,111
A 4K TV should be able to display 720p pixel for pixel, and 720p displays 240p perfectly.
720p is where the goodness starts for these devices.

The other thing we need is a gaming DAC, like the Analogue one but universal. Something better than a Tendak but more affordable than HD Fury, and specifically tested to work with the oddball timings we have in the hobby.
 

Polyh3dron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,962
It should, shouldn't it? My Sony doesn't though. It only does 1:1 for 1080p content. Anything else it upscales via its algorithms, even in "Graphics" mode.
Of course, because Sony. If there wasn't already a reason to hate their electronics with their awful Android-based UI, that would be another one.
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,607
A random question, I was using my PSone with the official LCD screen thing, resolution switching in SIlent Hill is a complete and utter non issue, how would they have pulled that off, can only assume its doing something different?
 

Polyh3dron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,962
Is this the case for an LG OLED?
Not sure. I'm just going off basic math, since if you multiply every pixel in 1280x720 by 3, you get 3840x2160 exactly. So if every 3x3 array of pixels were to act as one pixel, that's exactly 1280x720 without having to do any fancy scaling processing and it could, in theory, be every bit as razor sharp as displaying 720p content on a native 1280x720 screen. That is, as long as the TV doesn't do any dumb processing bullshit.