Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More

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ShinJohnpv

ShinJohnpv

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Oct 25, 2017
790
HD CRTs typically have the same issues as fixed pixel HD TVs (lag and such) and a lot of them for some reason interpret 240p as 480i.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,287
Australia
After recently picking up a refurbed original XBOX (to replace my short-lived previous original XBOX) I decided it might be fun to see if I could find myself a CRT to play it on. There were almost none for sale in my area, so my mum suggested I take a look at the e-waste section at our local dump.

To my surprise, I find this guy sitting on one of the outdoor tables among the ancient CRT monitors and busted computers:



This is an "after" shot; I wish I'd taken some "before" shots, it was utterly filthy. Turned out that under the grime it was actually in great condition, and better yet it actually seems to work just fine.

The label on the back calls it a Trinitron kv-xa25m31. It cost me the princely sum of $10 AUD. Anyone know if I've gotten something decent here? I understand Trinitrons are pretty well-liked, but I have absolutely no idea how good the specific model is.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,287
Australia
Well, if it has s-video and component, and image looks fine, then it's a perfect TV. Sounds like you got yourself a good deal.
It does have both of those, yep. The image looks good to me, but in fairness it's been probably more than a decade since I've seen a CRT in action.

I did notice some warping to the vertical edges of the picture, especially in some PS2 games. Weirdly, not so much on the XBOX.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,559
México
It does have both of those, yep. The image looks good to me, but in fairness it's been probably more than a decade since I've seen a CRT in action.

I did notice some warping to the vertical edges of the picture, especially in some PS2 games. Weirdly, not so much on the XBOX.
Flat CRT screens tend to have a slight distortion on the edges, so it may be normal. If the TV came with the remote, check the options to try to optimize the image a bit. For example, my Trinitron image was a little bit tilted, but that can be corrected with the remote.
 

Nessus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
966
Got my Tim Worthington RGB N64 mod kit in the mail the other day. Now I need to brush up on my soldering before I attempt to install it. Can't wait to hook the final product up to my OSSC.
 

dock

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Nov 5, 2017
917
Today I updated my OSSC to 0.85a and I love that I have an on screen display. It is interesting to see when the hardware swaps between output modes too.

Shame my 1080p TV can only cope with Line2X, but 240p games on Saturn have never looked better. I love it.

Any other OSSC users? Is there any benefit to installing Firebrand profiles? The process seems fiddly.
 
Today I updated my OSSC to 0.85a and I love that I have an on screen display. It is interesting to see when the hardware swaps between output modes too.

Shame my 1080p TV can only cope with Line2X, but 240p games on Saturn have never looked better. I love it.

Any other OSSC users? Is there any benefit to installing Firebrand profiles? The process seems fiddly.
The profiles are absolutely worth installing in my opinion. It feels super satisfying to boot up a properly calibrated profile to see the game in its full glory.

Obviously, it takes a little effort on your side to get the image perfect, so if you have a little time, go for it!

Shame about the TV compatibility. Have you tried playing around with the settings to get better compatibility with the higher line modes?
 

dock

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Nov 5, 2017
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Shame about the TV compatibility. Have you tried playing around with the settings to get better compatibility with the higher line modes?
Nice Giftpia avatar!! I love that soundtrack.

I don't really know what I'm doing tbh so once I get no picture I don't know which settings to change. Is there a guide for getting more compatibility from 240p images?
 
Nice Giftpia avatar!! I love that soundtrack.

I don't really know what I'm doing tbh so once I get no picture I don't know which settings to change. Is there a guide for getting more compatibility from 240p images?
Thank you! Absolutely a tremendous soundtrack - love it.

OSSC Tips & Tweaks
That’s the best I can do for you for now - it will help to have the manual and specs for your tv on hand.
Give that a read-through and see if any of the posts there align with your situation.
Also, keep in mind the firmware’s been updated quite a bit since the first posts, so some things may have slightly changed.

This may affect your FBX profiles, though.

Just playing around with the settings will gradually get you acquainted with some of the features and terminology of the device, so that’s also useful.
 
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Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,767
Speaking of the OSSC, I just got my LG OLED and will need to setup my profiles again. My old plasma only supported Line2X on everything, but reading around it seems the LGs will support Line5X. However, would Line5x ACTUALLY be better? It's not a clean division of the 2160 vertical resolution, so I'm wondering if it's better to stick to 3x which is, so that, presumably, it's just straight x3 pixel tripling for the tv to scale it.
 
Speaking of the OSSC, I just got my LG OLED and will need to setup my profiles again. My old plasma only supported Line2X on everything, but reading around it seems the LGs will support Line5X. However, would Line5x ACTUALLY be better? It's not a clean division of the 2160 vertical resolution, so I'm wondering if it's better to stick to 3x which is, so that, presumably, it's just straight x3 pixel tripling for the tv to scale it.
If you don’t mind some pixels cut off at the top and bottom of your image, Line5x is ridiculously sharp and looks fantastic.

The scanlines used to be a little too thin for my tastes in 5x mode, but I think the new custom scanline settings should have completely fixed that.
I just don’t have the know-how to work with the new settings, yet.

I play Line4x, which is still really excellent quality, and I get some nice chunky scanlines without much effort.
 

dock

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Nov 5, 2017
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Thanks for the tips link Glimlocker. Sadly none of those methods seemed to work for my sony tv, but it’s no problem.

I’m really happy with the way that ps1 and Saturn games look on the OSSC. Forgive the image dump but I love how clean these images are.





 

futurevoid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
Picked up my first PVM - the 14M4U and I’m also picking up a BVM-14G5U (with about 16k hours on it) tomorrow which I got a good deal on. Ill likely resell one of them but I have some bezel repair work to do on the 14M4U as the picture tube separated from the bezel at the bottom left hand corner in transit.:/

Still, I was able to remount it in place for now and I’m getting a nice discount/refund for my trouble. In the interim though, I cleaned the unit thoroughly and sampled some games and my goodness, consider me PVM converted. The sharpness/crispness of the image is incredible, the black levels deep and the natural scanlines are to die for.

480i content in particular just shines. I’ve been replaying Silent Hill 3 on my TCL 6 series via the Framemeister and man it just can’t compete. I also have 27in FV300 Trinitron that just can’t come close either. It’s crazy.

Some pics of a few 240p titles (and the setup which will be changing) even if they don’t entirely communicate how damned amazing a good PVM looks...







One thing is for sure, once I sell one of these off I’ll be on the lookout for a well priced 20M4U or better. I’m hooked.:) The Service menu was easy to navigate and getting geometry right is far less a hassle then on consumer grade sets as well, I have to say.
 

ShaggsMagoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,466
I've been searching for a bit for the answer to this but can't come up with anything, so I was hoping you guys could help me out. Why does the colors on a HDTV for a 480i signal look so washed out compared to a 480p signal? I can understand why it might be a bit blurier, but the colors being so washed out seems weird to me.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,172
I've been searching for a bit for the answer to this but can't come up with anything, so I was hoping you guys could help me out. Why does the colors on a HDTV for a 480i signal look so washed out compared to a 480p signal? I can understand why it might be a bit blurier, but the colors being so washed out seems weird to me.
What content do you have in mind?
 

ShaggsMagoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,466
What content do you have in mind?
Mainly my OG XBox and Ps2. Just on the main menu of the Xbox, if i'm on 480i, the color and image looks extremely washed out, but if I click in the sticks to change it to 480p, the colors look fine. I have observed similar behavior on the PS2 and Wii. I checked the settings on my TV in both modes, and it doesn't look like anything is changing when I switch back and forth.
 

angelgrievous

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,391
Ohio
Anyone have a recommendation on a good S-Video cable for PS1? All I have now is some multi-system cable and according to MLIG a good cable will make a difference. I'm gonna order one on Friday just not sure whether I should get the OEM Sony PS1 cable or something from Monster or...?

thanks.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,172
Mainly my OG XBox and Ps2. Just on the main menu of the Xbox, if i'm on 480i, the color and image looks extremely washed out, but if I click in the sticks to change it to 480p, the colors look fine. I have observed similar behavior on the PS2 and Wii. I checked the settings on my TV in both modes, and it doesn't look like anything is changing when I switch back and forth.
Games on those systems use an anti-flicker filter on 480i content. It’s meant to keep the flickering of interlaced images from bothering your vision, but it does wash things out. In xbox’s case it’s automatically turned off in 480p mode. Certain games on PS2 and GC give you options to turn it off even in 480i mode.
 

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
702
Anyone have a recommendation on a good S-Video cable for PS1? All I have now is some multi-system cable and according to MLIG a good cable will make a difference. I'm gonna order one on Friday just not sure whether I should get the OEM Sony PS1 cable or something from Monster or...?

thanks.
The OEM cables are really good, in my experience. That’s what I use with my PS1 and PS2 into a JVC monitor. The PS3/2/1 S-Video cable is usually still pretty easy to find new, too.
 

ShaggsMagoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,466
Games on those systems use an anti-flicker filter on 480i content. It’s meant to keep the flickering of interlaced images from bothering your vision, but it does wash things out. In xbox’s case it’s automatically turned off in 480p mode. Certain games on PS2 and GC give you options to turn it off even in 480i mode.
Well damn. Thanks for the info!
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,767
If you don’t mind some pixels cut off at the top and bottom of your image, Line5x is ridiculously sharp and looks fantastic.

The scanlines used to be a little too thin for my tastes in 5x mode, but I think the new custom scanline settings should have completely fixed that.
I just don’t have the know-how to work with the new settings, yet.

I play Line4x, which is still really excellent quality, and I get some nice chunky scanlines without much effort.
I finally updated my OSSC firmware and set it up with my LG OLED, and the OSD is a freaking GODSEND!!!!! OMG, the usability of the thing just went through the roof, haha!!

The video is very sharp at Line5x, and my SNES timins dialed in nicely. The Genesis timings I had to adjust V. Backporch to keep the top from being cut-off and the H. backporch to center it.

I haven't found scanline settings I like yet on either though, I need to read up on the way scanlines are done in the OSSC (I don't get why there's a Scanline strength AND a scanline hybrid strength, for example), since the custom scanline options are gibberish to me at the moment.
 

dock

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Nov 5, 2017
917
I’m a heathen because I’m using a ‘spider’ SCART cable with multiple connectors because of convenience. it makes it super easy to swap my Saturn for a PS2 without fiddling with cables. Shame the PCE uses a different SCART cable.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,172
I’m a heathen because I’m using a ‘spider’ SCART cable with multiple connectors because of convenience. it makes it super easy to swap my Saturn for a PS2 without fiddling with cables. Shame the PCE uses a different SCART cable.
Does that actually output RGB, and not just composite over SCART?
 

AwesomeSauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
318
I saw a nice looking Sony CRT sitting on my neighbor's curb the other day. Drove by and took a glance and it was in great condition with the remote taped on top. I didnt get the model number, but its bezel had this bluish purple color and it supported component/svideo. Told myself, id pick it up on the way back and get a buddy to help me move it, but by the time i came back, it rained hard and the TV was soaked :(
 

Beer Monkey

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,933
Palettes aren't an issue if you have the newest purple/blue correction installed in your NESRGB/NESHDMI firmware.
 
Oct 25, 2017
262
I'm fairly new to this retro AV stuff but wanted to start playing some of my old consoles on a modern television the best way possible. I bought a Nintendo RAD2X which is pretty awesome on its own. I wanted to try and RGB mod my n64 and opted with a DIY amp built with a THS7374 since I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron and I wanted to make some spare amps for the cost of some of the more readily available pre-built ones out there. The PCB for the amp was just from a basic kit from Amazon. I did mess up the placement with the capacitor, and I had already severed the trace where I placed it, so the ground wire is soldered directly to the cap. I'm also a stickler for crossing wires so that's why they are routed that way. I'll likely stake the wires with loctite or maybe hot glue so I can removed the tape.

RGB signal looks good. I'm not using the 4th channel on the amp because sync seems fine. I don't know if that's because of the RAD2X? Or just my n64?
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,562
Japan
Seems like either my Saturn cord is causing problems or my framemeister is dying. ... The screen randomly went black a few times during Nights until I moved it so the machine was level with the Saturn. It was fine for a while, but started randomly happening during Lunar.

I think it might be the framemeister, because it didn't cut to blue ... God damn it. Hopefully it's just the RGB port if its anything. But the fact that there's no flickering ironically worries me.
 

SpotAnime

Member
Dec 11, 2017
778
Starting the New Year off right - this Sony Trinitron KV-27FS13 popped up in my FB Marketplace feed yesterday, 10 minutes from my house. It's replacing a JVC 27D500 which had some terrible geometry issues affecting horizontal scrolling and couldn't be solved via the service menu (it seems to be a common issue with those sets, and recapping is a crapshoot and a daunting task).

This has some minor geometry issues which I can certainly live with until I get into the service menu. And I have to say, I am partial to the curved screen over this flat tube. But on the whole, it's definitely an upgrade for me. Way to start out the new year!

 

Vimes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
Been using my OSSC with GC/Wii/PS2 for a year and very happy with it, and now I'm finally gearing up to get my US N64 working. My N64RGB just arrived and I'm getting ready to wire it up, but I've belatedly come to the realization that not all SCART cables are identical. I have one that I picked up forever ago while I was in Australia, but I guess that must be PAL? Do I want one of the JP21s? If I use the wrong cable, will it damage the RGB chip or the N64? Can I break open my Aussie cable and rewire the pins?

Google results have been strangely vague, so I guess this is just a disparity of knowledge between PAL and NTSC regions. Thanks in advance RetroEra.

EDIT: Popped mine open and it looks like it would be trivial to rewire if I just knew what kind I wanted. These things are bananas, definitely from a different age of tech when right to repair was more than just a fond memory.

 
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ShinJohnpv

ShinJohnpv

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Oct 25, 2017
790
The OSSC is laid out for SCART not JP21, you would need to match the pin out of SCART. Using JP21 on a SCART input or vice versa can damage the thing your plugging it into. JP21 and SCART are just different ways of wiring up the same style connector, with different signals on different pins. PAL or NTSC can be done on both.

Like I said though the OSSC is scart, so you want to match the layout for scart. If you're really good at making sure you can keep track of what wire is exactly what, I suppose you could try rewiring the scart head. Screwing it up though could fry your OSSC. A good RGB SCART cable is much, much, much cheaper than an OSSC.

I do believe there is also differences in what goes into a Nintendo multi-out RGB lead depending on if its PAL or NTSC. I want to say one needs resistors, and one needs capacitors. I am not 100% sure though, plus I BELIEVE those items should be on the console side of the rgb cable, which is much harder to get into than the connector end. This is more about matching the cable to the console, though I don't know how eTim sets that up on his RGB board. My knowledge of this is more for the SNES, but the N64 uses the same multiout, and I believe modders typically match the output to the region of the console, so that SNES rgb cables work on them with out needing custom ones. I could be wrong on his N64RGB board as I didn't go RGB for my N64 so I'm not sure.
 

PtM

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Dec 7, 2017
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I've come to learn that Wii outputs most VC over component in 480p. Does this come with additional input lag?
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,562
Japan
Try a different HDMI cable
It actually seems to have been the RGB cord. The screen started giving off weird hues, like pink, etc as well as cutting out, so I switched it out and it seems fine. But it didn't show up for like 4 hours of gameplay just before that.

Edit: Though I did just enter a town in Lunar and everything was the wrong color (crazy greens and pinks, etc). I have the feeling it might just be a bug, because when I left and rentered it was fixed. However ... spooky.
 
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Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,893


So, the image is dropping off on the top right, and there's something resembling chromatic aberration at the bottom... convergence issues?