Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More

[spydersvenom]

Got a question if anyone can help. Doing some captures of Final Fight from the PS2 Capcom Classics Vol. 1 and noticed a bunch of combing artifacts with Component video. I know the game is 480i, but usually through a framemeister with Firebrandx's profiles, the deinterlace removes all interlacing artifacts like combing. Granted, it's not often or much, a few combs on the fighter's arms if carrying a weapon, the flicker in the warehouse of level 1, and definitely on the subway in level 2. When I throw the PS2 natively into my TVs, I see even worse results. Both my Sony Bravia and Samsung, which have very good deinterlacing, show combing artifacts all over the place constantly. The framemeister is much better with deinterlace and keeps the image much sharper.

So is there a way to fully remove these artifacts? No biggie if not, probably just swap the Classics Vol. 1 PS2 for the Xbox version, which is in 480p. How does the PS2 interlace to the point that deinterlacing doesn't always solve this? I guess I'm just new to the world of PS2 in 480i on a scaler, and yes, I was warned I'd see this issue but I never imagined it would be on old arcade ports. Also for the record, while Capcom Classics Vol. 2 has 480p on PS2, Vol. 1 is 480i only.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

If you can play back ups you can edit some code on the disc to run the games in 240p, or if you're using FreeMcBoot you can do the same.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61532

 

[spydersvenom]

If you can play back ups you can edit some code on the disc to run the games in 240p, or if you're using FreeMcBoot you can do the same.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61532

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Thank you, this is a good idea if I need to capture certain games since I have both Free McBoot and a Swap Magic, so backups aren't a problem. Still, I don't want to burn backups too much and burn out the laser and frankly, USB loading of PS2 games is abhorrent. Still, good to have for uses like this.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

Buy a hard drive and run your PS2 games off that.

 

[Deleted member 1162]

Buy a hard drive and run your PS2 games off that.

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Yeah I got the IDE Harddrive with rails but haven't had a chance to hook it up.

 

[ilfait]

Yeah I got the IDE Harddrive with rails but haven't had a chance to hook it up.

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What rails?

 

[Arulan]

I picked up one of these. Now I'm all set.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

What rails?

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The official hard drive came with 2 rails you screw into the hard drive to help hold it in place inside the PS2. You don't NEED them persay, but with out them you have to move your PS2 carefully as it'll slip off the connector easily.

I picked up one of these. Now I'm all set.

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Nice! I love my gscartsw-lite. Congrats on getting one!

 

[spydersvenom]

Buy a hard drive and run your PS2 games off that.

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I do have a hard drive, but you need to hex edit the ISO and then disconnect it from the PS2 (the network speeds are SO SLOW so I just hook it up to an IDE port in an old PC I have), copy it to the HDD and then back to the PS2. It's a lot of work. Again, this is more from the "capture video" and work involved as opposed to the way I should I should be playing: for fun.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

If you're running it off HDD, and with FreeMcBoot then why not just use GSM to force 240p instead.

 

[spydersvenom]

If you're running it off HDD, and with FreeMcBoot then why not just use GSM to force 240p instead.

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That's probably the best option. Going to try it. I know enough about soft modding a PS2 to make my life easier, but I clearly haven't spent enough time studying the quality of life solutions out there.

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

I got an x900e last night, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that it can take 240p over component. Not only that, but it seemed to to handle it really well. I didn't notice any obvious artifacts from it getting treated like 480i, though I didn't try anything too taxing like the 240p test suite.

The up scaling is a tad soft, but not terribly so. I was happy to see that it didn't try to smooth over the pixelized edges on moving objects. I want to play around with it some more to see how it handles 240p to 480i switches. This could end up being a great option for my playing PS1 games on my PS2.

 

[spydersvenom]

You're gonna get me to trade my KS8000 for X900E. Great to hear.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Having just bought a new HDTV last year (my 32" was getting too small for me, particularly with Breath of the Wild's tiny UI), I don't think I'm gonna buy another one until HDMI 2.1 has been standard for a little while - particularly the variable refresh rate bit of it, as that has me sincerely intrigued.

I mean, yeah, I want one that properly supports HDR (mine technically supports the input signal, but doesn't do localized brightening, so I can't really tell the difference), but I'm not so made of money that I can keep buying new TVs every year. (And the X900E doesn't support 3D, while mine does, so there's that, too. Not sure if mine supports 240p, though... Even if it did, based on how it handled my Saturn over composite, there'd be nasty deinterlacing artifacts.)

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

It totally makes sense to wait. I figured I either needed to get a 2017 model while they're on sale, or wait until around 2020 to get one once HDMI 2.1 and HDR get ironed out. I ended up finding the X900E on sale, so I went for it. In my case I decided that the lower price and having it now outweighs waiting for new tech, and my current TV was older and didn't look good even compared to modern budget TVs. It was a legit shock that the TCL TV I got my mom for Christmas had a better picture than my old one.

 

[spydersvenom]

That's true, I was being hyperbolic. Given that I have a Framemeister I'll stick with my setup for now but can't wait to grab a good HDMI 2.1 at some point, but will definitely not jump in as early as I did with 4K.

 

[Brhoom]

Not sure if mentioned here before, but in Raitings' review of Sony's X900E I found this part to be interesting,

When in the graphics picture mode 1080p is displayed with very basic upscaling, just mapping one pixel to four. This is shown in the pixel picture to the right. This kind of upscaling looks more jagged but it retains all the sharpness of the original image

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Just in case someone wanted a TV that upscales 1080p to 4K without making the image soft.

Source: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900e

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

Not sure if mentioned here before, but in Raitings' review of Sony's X900E I found this part to be interesting,


Just in case someone wanted a TV that upscales 1080p to 4K without making the image soft.

Source: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900e

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Just tried it out, and sure enough the graphics mode does a perfect integer scale of 1080p. Though honestly the upscaled version isn't bad at all.

Graphics mode on the left, game mode on the right.

Unfortunately it doesn't do a 9x scale for 720p content, at least not that I can tell. Even still, I'm pretty thrilled to see how it handles 1080p.

 

[dadjumper]

Just tried it out, and sure enough the graphics mode does a perfect integer scale of 1080p. Though honestly the upscaled version isn't bad at all.

Graphics mode on the left, game mode on the right.

Unfortunately it doesn't do a 9x scale for 720p content, at least not that I can tell. Even still, I'm pretty thrilled to see how it handles 1080p.

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Interesting. I think I'd have to see this in person to decide which one was better, because the right side looks better to me in these images. Would you be able to show something with pixel art?

 

[Brhoom]

Just tried it out, and sure enough the graphics mode does a perfect integer scale of 1080p. Though honestly the upscaled version isn't bad at all.

Graphics mode on the left, game mode on the right.

Unfortunately it doesn't do a 9x scale for 720p content, at least not that I can tell. Even still, I'm pretty thrilled to see how it handles 1080p.

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I hoped that it would do the same for 720p content but at least the option for 1080p content is there.

Hopefully 2018's models will do that as well

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

Interesting. I think I'd have to see this in person to decide which one was better, because the right side looks better to me in these images. Would you be able to show something with pixel art?

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I'll try to get something when I get home from work today.

I hoped that it would do the same for 720p content but at least the option for 1080p content is there.

Hopefully 2018's models will do that as well

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I want to try some other resolutions out too. 4080p/i should be interesting. Not to mention I want to experiment more with 240p.
I'm not sure if the 2018 model will work the same, since they're changing the upscaling processor, but who knows, maybe it will be even better.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I want to try some other resolutions out too. 4080p/i should be interesting. Not to mention I want to experiment more with 240p.
I'm not sure if the 2018 model will work the same, since they're changing the upscaling processor, but who knows, maybe it will be even better.

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If you want to see insanely good 240p on an LG OLED, triple it to 720p with an OSSC and the set will triple it the rest of the way as 2160p.

Likewise, if you want to see insanely good 480p, line double it in the OSSC to 960p, the set will double that to 1920p windowboxed with small black bars. I recommend a 25% strength simulated scanline effect; makes it look like a giant VGA monitor.

Sony OLED? I'm not sure. I would hope it handles it the same.

 

[Brhoom]

If you want to see insanely good 240p on an LG OLED, triple it to 720p with an OSSC and the set will triple it the rest of the way as 2160p.

Likewise, if you want to see insanely good 480p, line double it in the OSSC to 960p, the set will double that to 1920p windowboxed with small black bars. I recommend a 25% strength simulated scanline effect; makes it look like a giant VGA monitor.

Sony OLED? I'm not sure. I would hope it handles it the same.

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Are you sure that LG's OLED TVs do perfect integer scaling?

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Are you sure that LG's OLED TVs do perfect integer scaling?

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If it's being fed 720p, it's kind of a given unles it forces some sort of overscan for no reason. Also, if it's window boxing 960, it's likely maintaining an integer scale.

Edit: There can however be some kind of AA filtering which is what the 1080p comparisons look like to me.

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

Here's the x900e with pixel art. Sorry they're not the best pictures. The first is graphics mode, and the second is game mode. It looks like it tries to soften the image a bit in game mode. I can see game mode being useful for 3D games, since I think it does a fine job upscaling to 4K for that, but I don't like it for 2D art.

 

[dadjumper]

Here's the x900e with pixel art. Sorry they're not the best pictures. The first is graphics mode, and the second is game mode. It looks like it tries to soften the image a bit in game mode. I can see game mode being useful for 3D games, since I think it does a fine job upscaling to 4K for that, but I don't like it for 2D art.

.

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Thank you! That is a significant difference for sure

 

[KINGOFSHIBUYA Ltd.]

I have some questions.

Actually just one.

I'm currently in between 2 permanent living situations. During this time, I won't have my PVM with me.

That being said: Is there a good way for me to play my PSone games on my HDTV? I have a slim PS2 with a good shielded component cable, and the PS2 games look pretty nice. PSone, however, doesn't work properly.
The PS2 goes into 480i once it gets to the PS Logo (which looks great). Next, the top 240 lines get a squished video signal, while the bottom 240 go bonkers in a flash of pink and green squares.

I'm guessing it's because the PS2 outputs the PSone games as 240p instead of 480p or 480i, and maybe that's not working, though it works with composite just fine. But who wants to use composite?

So, I want either RGB or YPbPr quality in PSone games on TV. I own a slim PS2. PS2/3 component cables. PSone/2/3 composite cables. A super slim PS3 with HDMI.

Any suggestions? I just want to revisit Tomb Raider and THPS2.

 

[Deleted member 1162]

I have some questions.

Actually just one.

I'm currently in between 2 permanent living situations. During this time, I won't have my PVM with me.

That being said: Is there a good way for me to play my PSone games on my HDTV? I have a slim PS2 with a good shielded component cable, and the PS2 games look pretty nice. PSone, however, doesn't work properly.
The PS2 goes into 480i once it gets to the PS Logo (which looks great). Next, the top 240 lines get a squished video signal, while the bottom 240 go bonkers in a flash of pink and green squares.

I'm guessing it's because the PS2 outputs the PSone games as 240p instead of 480p or 480i, and maybe that's not working, though it works with composite just fine. But who wants to use composite?

So, I want either RGB or YPbPr quality in PSone games on TV. I own a slim PS2. PS2/3 component cables. PSone/2/3 composite cables. A super slim PS3 with HDMI.

Any suggestions? I just want to revisit Tomb Raider and THPS2.

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hey, it's not the ps2, but some HDTV's cannot output 240p over component. the ps1 menu is in 480i and once it switches to 240p it gets the picture you described or a blank screen. you may have to use an upscaler like the OSSC or go with composite.

 

[KINGOFSHIBUYA Ltd.]

hey, it's not the ps2, but some HDTV's cannot output 240p over component. the ps1 menu is in 480i and once it switches to 240p it gets the picture you described or a blank screen. you may have to use an upscaler like the OSSC or go with composite.

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Noooo! I might get OSSC.

HDRetrovision is making some PSone component cable. Do you know if that'll fix it?

Same folks are also making a converter box (though it's still too early to tell what is going on with it) to convert analog video to HDMI in 240p/288p/480i/576i/480p/576p. That seems good too.


Do you think PSone disc games on a PS3 are any good?

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

Noooo! I might get OSSC.

HDRetrovision is making some PSone component cable. Do you know if that'll fix it?

Same folks are also making a converter box (though it's still too early to tell what is going on with it) to convert analog video to HDMI in 240p/288p/480i/576i/480p/576p. That seems good too.


Do you think PSone disc games on a PS3 are any good?

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The Retrovision cables would have the same issue, since the problem is the TV not liking 240p over component.

Using a PS3 isn't a bad option. It's not flawless, but for most games it's plenty good.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Noooo! I might get OSSC.

HDRetrovision is making some PSone component cable. Do you know if that'll fix it?

Same folks are also making a converter box (though it's still too early to tell what is going on with it) to convert analog video to HDMI in 240p/288p/480i/576i/480p/576p. That seems good too.


Do you think PSone disc games on a PS3 are any good?

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If it doesn't scale or multiply it's not going to solve your issue, If you don't want ot spend cash and you won't sweat input lag, just use your PS3.

 

[Fuzzy]

Same folks are also making a converter box (though it's still too early to tell what is going on with it) to convert analog video to HDMI in 240p/288p/480i/576i/480p/576p. That seems good too.

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They're not working on the HDMIzer. That's a "wouldn't it be nice if we could make this?" product. lol

 

[donhonk]

Oddly enough my XRGB Mini's power button on top doesn't turn it on or off anymore? Am I missing something?

 

[Fuzzy]

Oddly enough my XRGB Mini's power button on top doesn't turn it on or off anymore? Am I missing something?

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I never use the buttons on the top because I have a remote but don't you have to hold it for a couple of seconds?

 

[donhonk]

I never use the buttons on the top because I have a remote but don't you have to hold it for a couple of seconds?

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Yep, doesnt do anything D:

 

[sleepnaught]

Looking to get a CRT for my PS1/2, Dreamcast, N64, SNES, and Genesis. Are the Sony Trinitron tvs my best bet? Are there any particular models to seek out or avoid? There a few available in my area, so, definitely want to grab one as soon as possible. Games look like crap currently on my 50" plasma.

 

[dubc]

Looking to get a CRT for my PS1/2, Dreamcast, N64, SNES, and Genesis. Are the Sony Trinitron tvs my best bet? Are there any particular models to seek out or avoid? There a few available in my area, so, definitely want to grab one as soon as possible. Games look like crap currently on my 50" plasma.

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Trinitron's are high up on the consumer CRT list. JVC's from around 2000 are good too, I had a 27" D-Series back in the day.

Look for component (YPbPr) input, if it has that it should have S-Video and of course composite as well. Avoid HD or ED (Enhanced Definition) CRT's, they will introduce input lag.

Ideally bring a console with the 240p test suite or something to test the image through the inputs you would use most to test out the tube.

Good luck! Going back to a CRT is amazing after playing on a plasma; great image and instant response time.

 

[spydersvenom]

The Retrovision cables would have the same issue, since the problem is the TV not liking 240p over component.

Using a PS3 isn't a bad option. It's not flawless, but for most games it's plenty good.

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The biggest problem you'll have, even with the OSCC, is incompatible resolution. The OSSC does integer scaling so, for example, 240p becomes 720p by an integer of 3 but to keep the 4:3 aspect ratio the horizontal resolution is 960 (OSSC will output 960x720). Some TVs will accept this resolution, but some won't given that 720p is 1280x720 to keep up with 16:9. I'd just hate to see you spend $200-$300 and have your TV reject the OSSC as well.

You mentioned the PS3 and I have to tell you, it's a pretty darn good option. I've done several analysis and while I'll concede that you do get a bit better picture using a PS2 with Component Cables and use a scaler, the PS3 with a disc (discs look better than the digital, so perhaps there's some compression artifacts in those versions) will look nearly identical. I'm super picky and I don't really notice when playing as the change is only slight when zooming in on a capture video. All PS3s are backward compatible with PS1 games so I'm thinking that's your cheapest and best option. Of course if you were looking for an excuse to get an OSSC for other retro consoles, that also has a lot of potential provided your TV accepts the odd resolution.

 

[spydersvenom]

Yep, doesnt do anything D:

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If the power button on the machine and the power button on the remote don't power it up, then it's either your XRGB or the power supply. When you plug it in do you at least get the red led lit (this is seen in "standby" mode)? If not, then it's most likely the power supply. You can either buy a new one at Solaris Japan (but the shipping will probably be close to the price of the power adaper) or if you have a PSP any authentic power supply will work. This can be a quick troubleshoot, but I highly recommend getting a replacement if that's the case.

If the power supply is not the issue and your XRGB mini simply won't turn on, I'd contact Micomsoft (or potentially Solaris Japan, their distributor) and see what kind of warranty/service can be done at a lower price than the $350 to replace it. I've not experienced this myself, but I've also not had a Framemeister for very long.

 

[donhonk]

If the power button on the machine and the power button on the remote don't power it up, then it's either your XRGB or the power supply. When you plug it in do you at least get the red led lit (this is seen in "standby" mode)? If not, then it's most likely the power supply. You can either buy a new one at Solaris Japan (but the shipping will probably be close to the price of the power adaper) or if you have a PSP any authentic power supply will work. This can be a quick troubleshoot, but I highly recommend getting a replacement if that's the case.

If the power supply is not the issue and your XRGB mini simply won't turn on, I'd contact Micomsoft (or potentially Solaris Japan, their distributor) and see what kind of warranty/service can be done at a lower price than the $350 to replace it. I've not experienced this myself, but I've also not had a Framemeister for very long.

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Thank you! I should have clarified that it turned on from the remote and I tried the top button again and it does work I just had to push a bit more than I thought necessary (past the click) kinda odd but it seems fine

 

[Brhoom]

I know this isn't the right place but I don't think we have a dedicated thread for it.

Anyone knows how to scale Dosbox games for 4K resolution using integer scale?

 

[Deleted member 7130]

I know this isn't the right place but I don't think we have a dedicated thread for it.

Anyone knows how to scale Dosbox games for 4K resolution using integer scale?

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What resolution do they run?

 

[Brhoom]

What resolution do they run?

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I honestly don't know how Dosbox handles them, don't bother for me if you don't know as well since it's a mess to learn.

 

[Brhoom]

I'm tempted to play Xenoblade using Dolphin. I have a CRT and a Wii, But that HD texture pack is something.

 

[spydersvenom]

I honestly don't know how Dosbox handles them, don't bother for me if you don't know as well since it's a mess to learn.

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As Televator mentioned, it depends on the resolution of the original game. Beyond that DOSbox does have scaling, it scales 2x by default but there appear to be scalers up to 3x. Granted, this is rendering before your PC scales for fullscreen. That said, imagine a game at 640x480, which is pretty typical, you'll get it to render at 1920x1440. At that rate you're bascially at 2K resolution with black bars for 4:3 or if it supports 16:9 you'll probably get the full 2560x1440. So it's a much easier scale to 4K and will probably look okay. Unfortunately lots of things like pre-rendered movies, instructions, and possibly even text may not scale with the render so it could vary. I've heard that DOSbox scaled to 4K via various methods doesn't work out well with many games based on how they bounce from pre-rendered to rendered. I've honestly never tried it myself beyond 1080p, but I've got plenty of DOSbox titles I could run on my 4K screen just to see.

 

[Brhoom]

As Televator mentioned, it depends on the resolution of the original game. Beyond that DOSbox does have scaling, it scales 2x by default but there appear to be scalers up to 3x. Granted, this is rendering before your PC scales for fullscreen. That said, imagine a game at 640x480, which is pretty typical, you'll get it to render at 1920x1440. At that rate you're bascially at 2K resolution with black bars for 4:3 or if it supports 16:9 you'll probably get the full 2560x1440. So it's a much easier scale to 4K and will probably look okay. Unfortunately lots of things like pre-rendered movies, instructions, and possibly even text may not scale with the render so it could vary. I've heard that DOSbox scaled to 4K via various methods doesn't work out well with many games based on how they bounce from pre-rendered to rendered. I've honestly never tried it myself beyond 1080p, but I've got plenty of DOSbox titles I could run on my 4K screen just to see.

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Thanks for explaining, I'm using Dosbox that comes with GOG games, It only offers an x3 scale that makes them fit in a really small window in the center of the screen.

 

[Danexmurder]

Managed to snag an old Sony BVM and got my Sega Genesis hooked up to it with BNC connectors from retrogamingcables.co.uk. I really couldn't be happier with how it looks. Incredibly sharp. I also can't believe how good the motion resolution is. I kinda forgot after playing on a flat screen for so long. My unit is a BVM-14F5U.

 

[Fuzzy]

Danexmurder upload the pics to an image host, we can't see them without copying/pasting the url.

 

[Danexmurder]

Yeah, couldn't figure out how to get google drive to link to them. Seems like it should be a simple thing but it totally isn't. I'll keep messing around with it.

*Edit*

There we go.

 

[Shadow Hog]

You may want to look into forks of DOSBox if you wanna go higher than 3x scale, honestly. I believe some go up as high as 5x (which would give you a 1600x1000 image). Even then, I don't believe they handle aspect ratio correction on an integer-scale basis (though the 5x scale might come close, as you could aspect correct that to 1600x1200, which is 5x horizontally and 6x vertically - but don't hold me to that being what they actually do!), so you might get a bit of blur if you're using that. (Also: you should probably be using that, as some games actually were designed around the non-square pixels 320x200 provides.)

I forget which forks provide a 5x scaler - SVN-Daum might, not sure.