Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More

[Glimlocker]

So I've been considering the MClassic while you can still get it cheaper on their IndieGoGo, but two things are keeping me from grabbing it:

1. The sharpening filter. It really is quite strong, to the point of haloing text.
2. The pixel aspect ratio issue that I saw showed off in a video review.

Hopefully if they do a third version of this device, it fixes these issues.


I have my setup for my launch PS3 to do deinterlacing on my PS2 library, so it sends a 480p signal via component to the OSSC, so I thankfully don't have to worry about timing then from the sounds of it.

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Hm - the mClassic is a fascinating device - I don't quite see what it does differently from their hdmi cables in practical use.

If you're using it for 480p and above sources, the little I've read about it says it does a nice job.

I'd be cautious for other 480i and below sources, but I haven't read up on it too much.
Any upscaler without detailed settings options is a gamble.

 

[Mantrox]

Finally i have a PC with Groovymame properly setup, running at 240P without any tearing, and the smoothness on the CRT is amazeballs.



With the Mister FPGA stuff gaining a lot of traction, i hope that we can have some cores for CAVE\Raizing games in the near future.
But until then, this will do just fine.

 

[Kyle Cross]

So, I'm still going back and forth on my PS2 via BC PS3 setup. The setup I've been using was what was suggested here earlier: PS3 set to 480p (so letting the PS3 handle deinterlacing) via component and sent to the OSSC in Line2x mode.

But lately I've really been unsure. I've tried setting the PS3 to 480i and sending it to the OSSC which is set to simply passthrough the signal (so acting as a component to HDMI converter) to my LG B7, and it could be placebo but it seems to look better. For 480i, at least. Doing 480p this way does result in a blurrier picture than compared to Line2x mode.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

The OSSC is going to do a better upscaling than your tv. Which is why 480p in line2x mode looks better than the tv upscalling. I think there are very few tvs on the market that are doing integer scaling. Since for live action stuff that would look worse than the softer scaling they usually do.

Not sure on why 480i would look better, maybe the TV is doing a better deinterlacing job than the PS3 is. I've never tried running any of my PS2 games through my PS3. I go the framemeister route. Not all deinterlacing solutions are created equally.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Internal PS2 HDMI mod prototype from the man behind DCHDMI


This is highly interesting. Anyone here have a Twitter account? No one seems to have asked him what sort of scaling features we can expect. I assume, at least, what DCHDMI can do.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

He's on RetroRGB's patreon and I think a while back he did say on there that it would have similar output as the DCHDMI, I could be remembering wrong though so don't quote me.

 

[Listai]

While I've moved away from HDMI modded consoles I'd be interested to see if the board offers any good de-interlacing options. That said most modern sets would do a good job de-interlacing a 1080i image.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The fact that PS2 uses field rendering in TONS of games, plus weird internal resolutions at times means that it's not going to look as solid as DCHDMI. Still will likely top Framemeister though, knowing Dan.

 

[Listai]

The fact that PS2 uses field rendering in TONS of games, plus weird internal resolutions at times means that it's not going to look as solid as DCHDMI. Still will likely top Framemeister though, knowing Dan.

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Yeah, it was such a pain getting some games to even de-interlace properly on my OSSC, without optimised modes games like TimeSplitters looked terrible.

 

[Kyle Cross]

Yeah, I'm still struggling what to do with the PS2 myself.

1. Line2x with bob deinterlacing.
2. 480i passthrough to my LG B7.
3. Let the PS3 deinterlace then OSSC Line2x.
4. Just let the PS3 deinterlace and upscale to 1080p via HDMI.

Nothing looks... very good. Greatest game library ever, but man do I wish Sony made the system stronger.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

The fact that PS2 uses field rendering in TONS of games, plus weird internal resolutions at times means that it's not going to look as solid as DCHDMI. Still will likely top Framemeister though, knowing Dan.

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It's likely to have motion adaptive deinterlacing? I think that's possible but unlikely.

 

[Windrunner]

Hopefully the OG Xbox is next on his list.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Hopefully the OG Xbox is next on his list.

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I expected that before PS2, but I'm pretty sure that's also in the works.

 

[Windrunner]

I expected that before PS2, but I'm pretty sure that's also in the works.

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Potentially incredible results, possibly complicated by the Xbox having 3 different encoder chips. Wonder if he'd be able to support all 3.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Potentially incredible results, possibly complicated by the Xbox having 3 different encoder chips. Wonder if he'd be able to support all 3.

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Good point. That latter revision could especially be a problem for compatibility. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up limited to 2 video chips.

 

[Windrunner]

Good point. That latter revision could especially be a problem for compatibility. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up limited to 2 video chips.

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Yeah don't think anyone could begrudge him that.

Not digital to digital but a cheaper upcoming option: https://www.reddit.com/r/originalxb...xbox_to_hdmi_adapter_with_digital_audio_over/

Much more promising than those lousy Hyperkin/Pound cables!

 

[Deleted member 7130]

I wonder if the digital to digital internal mod might get native RGB or at least component 4:4:4 out of the xbox. I know that VGA hacks required a bios flash to get the correct color space.

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

Does anyone have any idea what Kaico Labs is? They've apparently been selling OSSC's on Amazon, and they just posted a Dreamcast HDMI cable on their Twitter.



https://twitter.com/KaicoLabs/status/1166002670496362501

Voultar seems to give their OSSC props for build quality and professional packaging. but I am wondering if their Dreamcast cable is just a clone of the Pound cable. I'm tempted to grab it just to find out.

 

[Kyle Cross]

Can anyone explain the difference between 1600x1200 and 1920x1200 output for Line5x on the OSSC? I assume 1600 honors the proper aspect ratio and 1920 doesn't?

The OSSC wiki also recommends setting h.samplerate to 1950 from the default 2046. I certainly didn't notice a difference.

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

I went ahead and ordered that Kaico Dreamcast HDMI adapter. I've got low expectations, but curiosity got the better of me. Maybe it will turn out to be decent. I'll try to update folks here if it's any good.

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

So the Kaico Dreamcast adapter came in. I'm actually surprised by it. It's not perfect, but it's way better than the Pound cable from what I've seen. Unfortunately I'm not able to do a direct comparison between cables, but I based my opinion on the Pound version on the HEVC version of Dark1x 's DCHDMI video, so I feel like that gives me a pretty good idea of how this cable compares.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with how it looks. Sure I'd rather have the DCHDMI, but I don't feel like I use the Dreamcast enough to justify the price. This cable seems to do just a basic conversion between VGA and HDMI without ruining the picture in the process, which is fine by me. Build quality on the cable is pretty good too. The connector feels solid, the cable is think (it's actually labeled as a DisplayPort cable, and I found that funny), and the box is mostly metal. Unfortunately I don't see an easy way to open it, or else I'd take some pics of the innards. Overall though, it's good for me, but I don't exactly have a ton of Dreamcast experience, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Here's some screenshots. Taken with the X2 mode on my Framemeister. The colors look a tad washed out, but that's the Framemeister settings (I messed with them a few months ago and never reset it), they look more vibrant when going straight to my TV. I'll note that quality is highly dependent on the scaler you use, and how it handles 480p. The picture looks pretty soft on my old LG TV, looks pretty good, but not razor sharp on my Sony X900E, and looks pretty dang sharp through the Framemeister.

 

[Bancho]

This is what i'm currently rocking at the moment. Sony PVM 14M2E. I run a Snes Jr, NesRGB and my PC Engine which i've ampped for RGB ouput also. I like the small size of the 14". I also Own a PVM 20M4E and a JVC JVC H2000PN-K

 

[Astral Lovelace]

Hey guys, got a question for you all.

My current setup is based around component/YPbPr, and rocks a CRT Monitor and a CRT TV. The monitor is being fed primarily by a Beharbros Garo, converting the YPbPr to VGA. Everything currently hooks up to a gcompsw, for dual output of my component video.

My question is, given I have these double outputs, is there a good, easy way to output lagless, unscaled video to HDMI for streaming off of the Beharbros? It would need to work with 240p sources, which is my main concern.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

Do you want it to be going to and using 3 devices at once? IE The CRT TV, CRT Monitor, and the capture device? I say this cause you could get away with an OSSC or Framemeister set up next to the one you're not going to be using at the same time and just switching the cables. I'm just trying to understand exactly what you want to do. The OSSC will take VGA in it looks like, but are you planning on splitting the VGA signal after it comes out of the Garo?

 

[Astral Lovelace]

Do you want it to be going to and using 3 devices at once? IE The CRT TV, CRT Monitor, and the capture device? I say this cause you could get away with an OSSC or Framemeister set up next to the one you're not going to be using at the same time and just switching the cables. I'm just trying to understand exactly what you want to do. The OSSC will take VGA in it looks like, but are you planning on splitting the VGA signal after it comes out of the Garo?

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You've just given me the idea of using a Retrotink, which would cover my non-Dreamcast systems. Swapping component cables takes a good bit more time than VGA, but wouldn't cost $200.
Although now I wish the gcompsw had 3 component outs. :(

 

[ShinJohnpv]

So you are planning to use all 3 displays at once?

 

[Astral Lovelace]

So you are planning to use all 3 displays at once?

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No, I'll only be displaying to either CRT (for 480i/240p) or the monitor for 480p content, and then HDMI for streaming.

 

[the_bromo_tachi]

So I bought a Saturn and trying to play shining force 3. However, the text is a bit hard to read on a 4k hdtv. What's the best way to play a Sega Saturn on a 4ktv? Is the framemeister really worth the $350? Is there no cheaper alternative? I was expecting to pay maybe $100-$200 but $350? Not sure if it's really worth it...

 

[Deleted member 7130]

So I bought a Saturn and trying to play shining force 3. However, the text is a bit hard to read on a 4k hdtv. What's the best way to play a Sega Saturn on a 4ktv? Is the framemeister really worth the $350? Is there no cheaper alternative? I was expecting to pay maybe $100-$200 but $350? Not sure if it's really worth it...

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RetroTink and OSSC are the other options. Cheaper too. RetroTink has better compatibility, but is more limited in features.

 

[modoversus]

So the Kaico Dreamcast adapter came in. I'm actually surprised by it. It's not perfect, but it's way better than the Pound cable from what I've seen. Unfortunately I'm not able to do a direct comparison between cables, but I based my opinion on the Pound version on the HEVC version of Dark1x 's DCHDMI video, so I feel like that gives me a pretty good idea of how this cable compares.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with how it looks. Sure I'd rather have the DCHDMI, but I don't feel like I use the Dreamcast enough to justify the price. This cable seems to do just a basic conversion between VGA and HDMI without ruining the picture in the process, which is fine by me. Build quality on the cable is pretty good too. The connector feels solid, the cable is think (it's actually labeled as a DisplayPort cable, and I found that funny), and the box is mostly metal. Unfortunately I don't see an easy way to open it, or else I'd take some pics of the innards. Overall though, it's good for me, but I don't exactly have a ton of Dreamcast experience, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Here's some screenshots. Taken with the X2 mode on my Framemeister. The colors look a tad washed out, but that's the Framemeister settings (I messed with them a few months ago and never reset it), they look more vibrant when going straight to my TV. I'll note that quality is highly dependent on the scaler you use, and how it handles 480p. The picture looks pretty soft on my old LG TV, looks pretty good, but not razor sharp on my Sony X900E, and looks pretty dang sharp through the Framemeister.

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By any chance do you have an Elgato HD, the older USB video capture device? Most dreamcast HDMI cables dont work with it.

 

[Beer Monkey]

RetroTink and OSSC are the other options. Cheaper too. RetroTink has better compatibility, but is more limited in features.

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Is it more compatible than an OSSC in 2x mode?

It shouldn't be. They both pass through source timings.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Is it more compatible than an OSSC in 2x mode?

It shouldn't be. They both pass through source timings.

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According to the creator, the RT does adjust output clock

 

[Beer Monkey]

According to the creator, the RT does adjust output clock

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How is this possible without buffering and creating lag? And even with moderate variable lag, skipping or repeating frames?

 

[Deleted member 7130]

How is this possible without buffering and creating lag? And even with moderate variable lag, skipping or repeating frames?

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It does it per pixel somehow? It's in the interview with RGB Bob. I don't quite understand how it does it either.


@~14:40

 

[Beer Monkey]

It sounds like basically it does jitter correction, not changing the actual refresh rate.

I could see this helping with devices that are thrown off by the jitter of things like NES and SNES during certain scanlines but not doing anything for display devices that don't like the weird refresh rates of certain consoles.

I will happily stand corrected if wrong.

Timestamp on video:

 

[eEK!]

So I bought a Saturn and trying to play shining force 3. However, the text is a bit hard to read on a 4k hdtv. What's the best way to play a Sega Saturn on a 4ktv? Is the framemeister really worth the $350? Is there no cheaper alternative? I was expecting to pay maybe $100-$200 but $350? Not sure if it's really worth it...

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As already said the OSSC and RetroTink are both cheaper and the OSSC does a good job with the Saturn's RGB output.
I haven't got a RetroTINK, so I can't say much about it other than the its composite and s-video inputs make it more compatible with older consoles, like the NES.

 

[Astral Lovelace]

Retrotink + HDRetrovision Component cables should be cheaper and easier than OSSC.

 

[ShinJohnpv]

With the retrotink though you're subject to just line doubling the 240p to 480p and then letting your 4K tv do the rest. That is really going to depend on how well your tv handles 480p. The OSSC and Framemeister will get you to 1080p and the majority of 4k tvs do a better job going from 1080p to 4k than they do 480p to 4k.

Like others have said make sure you're going to what ever solution you pick with either good RGB cables or HDRetrovisions Component cables. So you're feeding it the cleanest signal you can.

I find the FM worth it but I also send it systems that do 480i, and I have some systems where there is either no rgb mod, or its not available any more. So I'm feeding it S-Video and composite where I have to.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The OSSC and Framemeister will get you to 1080p and the majority of 4k tvs do a better job going from 1080p to 4k than they do 480p to 4k.

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In my experience, basically all 4K TVs handle 720p and 1080p scaling better than 480p scaling.

Interestingly some current ones will even integer scale 960p and leave the black bars (which makes 480p sources like Xbox and Dreamcast look amazing through the OSSC to 2X).

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

By any chance do you have an Elgato HD, the older USB video capture device? Most dreamcast HDMI cables dont work with it.

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Unfortunatly I don't have an Elgato to try. I didn't have any issues with my Razer Ripsaw, though it does treat it like 640x480 like most other things seem to these days. I usually use Crazy Taxi to test that, since the bar at the bottom of the menu looks wrong when it doesn't treat it like 720x480.

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

So has anyone here with the OSSC had issues with audio cutting in and out from time to time?

I just got one yesterday, and on my main TV sound just seems to randomly cut out for a second or two, and then comes back. It happens pretty frequently when in line 4X mode, and happens sporadically at 2X. Doesn't seem to happen on the other display I tried it on.

 

[Laevateinn]

So has anyone here with the OSSC had issues with audio cutting in and out from time to time?

I just got one yesterday, and on my main TV sound just seems to randomly cut out for a second or two, and then comes back. It happens pretty frequently when in line 4X mode, and happens sporadically at 2X. Doesn't seem to happen on the other display I tried it on.

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This hasn't been an issue for me. Are you going in via SCART directly or is this through an aux cable?

 

[Beer Monkey]

I posted some pics of MiSTer + SLG3000 on a Diamondtron VGA.

https://imgur.com/a/DUA2AXO

$5 VGA monitor, $10 SLG3000.

For those who don't know the tech, the MiSTer was line doubling (not buffering frames) 240p to 480p and then the SLG was dimming every other line to give 240p look.

 

[TheWooniestWoona]

This hasn't been an issue for me. Are you going in via SCART directly or is this through an aux cable?

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I'm using component video input and an aux audio cable. Tried both my PS2 and Xbox. It's got to be something with that specific TV, since every other TV I've tried it on work fine. I've made sure to update the firmware, and I've been playing around with the sound settings to see if anything helps, and so far nothing does. Either I just don't know about some compatibility setting that might help, or that TV just doesn't like something about how the OSSC does audio over HDMI.

It's a bummer, but luckily it's not the end of the world. I can always just use the analog audio out directly to the TV if I want, it just means I have to use a specific HDMI port. Or I could use my older TV, it seems to love the OSSC.

 

[Quaker]

Anyone familiar with Sony PVMs?

I saw someone semi-locally asking for $400 for a 20m2mdu.

https://m.imgur.com/a/w112qdm

It's not in mint condition but it seems to be a bit less than recent completed listings on eBay.

I'd want something that can fit on a desk and quality smaller CRTs aren't easy to find around here. Use case would be mostly for retro 2D based games through RGB. I'm going to Japan next month and was hoping to bring back a Super Famicom at least.

I don't mind paying up front for quality hardware but as a novice I am a little concerned about paying so much for a lemon or something that would be high maintenance.

Any insight would be appreciated!

 

[apathetic]

Anyone familiar with Sony PVMs?

I saw someone semi-locally asking for $400 for a 20m2mdu.

https://m.imgur.com/a/w112qdm

It's not in mint condition but it seems to be a bit less than recent completed listings on eBay.

I'd want something that can fit on a desk and quality smaller CRTs aren't easy to find around here. Use case would be mostly for retro 2D based games through RGB. I'm going to Japan next month and was hoping to bring back a Super Famicom at least.

I don't mind paying up front for quality hardware but as a novice I am a little concerned about paying so much for a lemon or something that would be high maintenance.

Any insight would be appreciated!

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Belive that is the "medical" version of the 20m2u. Depending on how worn the tube is that seems like a good price for this market. That particular unit has less scanlines overall then the more popular ones but some people also prefer that look (600 on the 20m2mdu/20m2u as opposed to the 800-1000 on some others out there). Hard to tell how worn a PVM is from one glance since there is alot you can do in the settings and unlike BVMs there is no way to check the hours. 20" is basicly the most popular/saught after size of PVM/BVMs as well.

 

[dubc]

That particular unit has less scanlines overall then the more popular ones but some people also prefer that look (600 on the 20m2mdu/20m2u as opposed to the 800-1000 on some others out there).

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TV Lines on CRT's are the number of vertical lines so this model won't have less scanlines in the general use of the word. Yes, lower fidelity raster scan.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_lines

If the tube is in good condition, it's a decent price now. Take something with the 240p test suite if you can. Depending on your desk size it might be a little big. The 13/14" ones are probably more desk friendly, ymmv.

 

[apathetic]

TV Lines on CRT's are the number of vertical lines so this model won't have less scanlines in the general use of the word. Yes, lower fidelity raster scan.

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I'm happy someone corrected me. Went to take a nap right after posting that and woke up knowing that I wrote scanlines instead of TV lines. Don't rush to post while tired as you may spread false information. :c

 

[dubc]

I'm happy someone corrected me. Went to take a nap right after posting that and woke up knowing that I wrote scanlines instead of TV lines. Don't rush to post while tired as you may spread false information. :c

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Ha, no worries.

I like my 600 TVL set, 800+ is PVM-xxL5 and BVM territory I think. The 600 TVL set will look great, don't sweat it.

 

[Deleted member 2620]

I've got a couple CRTs and I think it's allllllmost time, in 2019, to move on. I've used Analogue consoles and I love them.

I'm interested in an OSSC, but I use some consoles with S-Video and even composite, and I don't want to modify these consoles to output RGB. Is there some convenient and lagless hardware I can throw into the chain there to fix this? Or am I mistaken in assuming that OSSC only supports RGB?