How concerned should I be about the loss of quality when converting to VGA? Can anyone recommend a particular device to get me from component or SCART to VGA?
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Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More
- Thread starter ShinJohnpv
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How concerned should I be about the loss of quality when converting to VGA? Can anyone recommend a particular device to get me from component or SCART to VGA?
Hello all! I'm in the process of putting together a 6th gen gaming nook (with the possibility of adding 5th and 4th gen down the road) and was looking for some recommendations on ways to connect a Dreamcast and original Xbox. The Gamecube I picked up came with a Carby HDMI adapter so that's set. I also picked up a component cable for the PS2 since all the HDMI solutions I could find for it seemed kind of... bad.
The television I'm using does have VGA, so should I stick with that for the Dreamcast or go HDMI? I also see that there are mass produced options for both connections and both have both criticism and praise posted online. The Beharbros units seem solid, but does shipping for them really take months like I've read? Is there a difference in picture quality between their HDMI VGA solutions? DCHDMI looks incredible, but the cost is too steep and I'd rather not go the hard mod route -- these consoles need to be easily replaceable as they're a bit older and run the risk of failure.
Is the official HD AV component pack still the best way to connect an original Xbox? Would there be something else someone would recommend -- possibly HDMI? Again, from what I've read the mass produced HDMI solutions have problems. The issue I have here is that the television I'm connecting to only has one component input. I'd rather not run an analog selector as I've had them cause interference in the past. I'd also like to keep the setup as clean as possible, and if it's recommended to run both the Xbox and PS2 component with me swapping the cables as necessary I'll do it even though I'd rather keep everything connected all the time.
I'm also not really interested in picture quality "upgrade" devices. I'd rather run these consoles as true-to-source as possible. Stuff like the Framemeister and MCable don't really appeal to me.
Thanks in advance for any replies!
EDIT: The television I'm using has three HDMI inputs, one component input, one VGA input, and two composite (lol nope) inputs.
The television I'm using does have VGA, so should I stick with that for the Dreamcast or go HDMI? I also see that there are mass produced options for both connections and both have both criticism and praise posted online. The Beharbros units seem solid, but does shipping for them really take months like I've read? Is there a difference in picture quality between their HDMI VGA solutions? DCHDMI looks incredible, but the cost is too steep and I'd rather not go the hard mod route -- these consoles need to be easily replaceable as they're a bit older and run the risk of failure.
Is the official HD AV component pack still the best way to connect an original Xbox? Would there be something else someone would recommend -- possibly HDMI? Again, from what I've read the mass produced HDMI solutions have problems. The issue I have here is that the television I'm connecting to only has one component input. I'd rather not run an analog selector as I've had them cause interference in the past. I'd also like to keep the setup as clean as possible, and if it's recommended to run both the Xbox and PS2 component with me swapping the cables as necessary I'll do it even though I'd rather keep everything connected all the time.
I'm also not really interested in picture quality "upgrade" devices. I'd rather run these consoles as true-to-source as possible. Stuff like the Framemeister and MCable don't really appeal to me.
Thanks in advance for any replies!
EDIT: The television I'm using has three HDMI inputs, one component input, one VGA input, and two composite (lol nope) inputs.
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Afraid I don't know much about vga converters/transcoders. PC crt monitor users tend to use emulators or MiSTers, so there isn't much talk on converting to vga.
That said RetroRGB recommend this transcoder, which looks like it does exactly what you need.
I wonder if I can use my RetroTink2x to line-double 240p content, then output over HDMI and use the Tendak HDMI-to-VGA adapter I have. That's currently how I feed svideo from my N64 to my OSSC (via passthrough).
Most PS2 games are strictly 480i because of field rendering. It needs to be deinterlaced (as opposed to line doubled) to look sharpest. Also, because of interlaceing flicker, a lot of games used a filter to make the flicker appear less harsh. The filtering also blurs the image as a consequence. The Framemeister does proper deinterlacing. The OSSC Pro will to and perhaps beat the Framemeistr.
some games like Silent Hill 3 have options to disable the blurry filter.
But yes, in my opinion at least the PS2 puts out comparatively ugly video compared to the GameCube and Xbox.
The other machines output 480p native. Even the games that don't support it can be easily forced. On Xbox, the blurry flicker filter is totally disabled in progressive mode as well. GC is more variable with it, but it's not as bad as the PS2.
What's more, is that enabling progressive mode on PS2 even on what few games support it often comes at the expense of bit depth. Which is then "compensated" for by forcing some of the heaviest dithering I've seen in some case of that entire generation.
edit: I misunderstood your post. lol
I misread "comparatively" as "comparable". Sorry, my mistake.
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It really does. I remember treating my PS2 purely as an exclusives machine back in the day since it's competitors appeared graphically superior, but now that I'm seeing them on non-CRTs for the first time with something better than s-video it's definitely not purely a horsepower thing. Gamecube, Xbox, and Dreamcast all "clean up" fine. The PS2 doesn't and probably isn't worth throwing any additional money at beyond a basic component cable. It's also worth noting that I've tried forcing higher resolutions through GSM via FreeMcBoot (with varying success) and it's still inferior. PC emulated PS2 games, of course, can look incredible.
Seriously what the actual F is going on with CRT prices on eBay here in the UK?, idiots are trying to ask £100+ for 14" Sony Trinitron TVs.....they are have delusions of grandeur thinking they will get that price and must be confused thinking there PVM displays.
Surely they arent selling at that stupid price!?
Surely they arent selling at that stupid price!?
Yep sellers are even asking £50 for crap composite only TVs, keep looking though there's still a few sellers that want to clear some space, just avoid anything with "retro gaming monitor" in the title.
Yeah GSM doesn't change the rendering resolution. From what I understand, it only affects the target frame resolution so that the image is simply stretched to fit a different resolution output. So it actually has adverse effects on aspect ratio as well. GSM just wasn't worth anything when I tried it.
wtf is happening to CRT prices? Just saw a thread from 2015 where $600 for a BVM-d24E1WU was outrageous. I think some of the better known sellers out there have been pushing the prices higher and higher lately
Noticed the same thing for professional monitors as well. Around here in southern california you can still find people giving away consumer TV's for free, but anything professional and it's ridiculous. In the last six months alone I feel like prices have doubled.
Noticed the same thing for professional monitors as well. Around here in southern california you can still find people giving away consumer TV's for free, but anything professional and it's ridiculous. In the last six months alone I feel like prices have doubled.
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There is a limited supply of CRTs left that haven't been destroyed or recycled, and in the last 5 years there has been a large increase in demand for them from anyone thinking about playing vintage games. Hence demand goes up, while supply goes down, and you get prices getting outrageous. I mean its been that way for a while in Jersey.
I almost went to pick up a KD-34XBR960 but it turns out it wasn't working. I don't know why people waste time and not post that.
Thanks! I made a quick outline of my setup as well:
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OP
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Yeah I did similar with draw.io for my setup. It can really help you keep track of things.
Which 8 port HDMI switch are you using?
I'm always on the lookout for quality switches.
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I'm using the monoprice one. Which is this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003L14X3A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The only annoying thing about it so far has been the light of the source that's outputting blinks constantly. I don't know why they put shit like that on there.
Did you have any luck with this? It seems like you might be the only one in the thread other than myself trying to get results with the Worthington mod and the OSSC. I'm also curious what SCART cable you're using, especially if your 64 is NTSC like mine.Heyo, I was wondering if anyone might be able to help with an issue I'm experiencing. I got the Tim Worthington RGB mod installed on my N64 and this is the result:
Not quite jailbars, but thicker sorta wavy vertical lines. This is RGB SCART going into an OSSC, then HDMI out into an HDTV.
Thought it might be the SCART cable but using the same cable with an SNES the image is fine with no hint of vertical lines.
Also this is after cutting the track to the composite video pin to enable CS75 composite sync.
Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks so much!
I installed the mod but during my test run attempts I haven't seen any response from the OSSC. Most likely it's the scart cable I'm using, which at this point I'm fairly certain at this point PAL RGB cable for gamecube. Seems maybe I should be using an NTSC scart cable (I previously thought this was an oxymoron) with some kind of cysnc functionality, like this one. I haven't mucked with any of the csync related pins because I don't yet know if it'll do me any good.
The only other equipment I had available to mess with was to try plugging my gamecube into the OSSC with the scart cable. This resulted in sync from the OSSC, but in the form of a black screen. I imagine that's not too surprising given that it must be a PAL cable. (Also I've since seen it suggested that a cable mismatch the other way around can damage a tv! so that was probably a dumb idea, though my OSSC seems unharmed.)
Unfortunately no luck so far. We get image, but it's still got those awful wavy lines like in the photo.
The guy who is doing the mod install for me is extremely skilled and he's tried everything he can think of and he even contacted Tim Worthington himself who offered a bit of advice but had never seen this specific issue before. We haven't been able to find any photos or screenshots online of anyone with the same issue.
So far we've tried:
-2 different OSSCs
-2 different NTSC SCART cables one of which was high end
-2 different N64s
-an isolated clean 3.3v power source
-multiple different types of sync signal
-replacing the ribbon cable with magnet wire
-replacing Tim Worthington's plastic fine pitch adapter with a PCB adapter
So I finally gave up and ordered a different RGB mod based on Borti's design last night.
If you're getting OSSC recognizing a signal but no image, I'd be very careful. I think maybe what happened to my Tim Worthington mod was we might have had a solder bridge between several of the legs of the IC you solder the mod to and that might have damaged the mod (I had two other people attempt to install the mod on a third N64 before someone told me about the guy who is working on it now who has waaay more experience with console mods), but yeah I had the same thing, OSSC recognized a signal, but no image.
With regards to SCART cables, I'm still a little iffy on some of the details, but from what I understand:
Yes there is a difference between PAL and NTSC SNES/N64 SCART cables. If you have the wrong region they will not work properly. That said, if you're comfortable enough soldering the RGB mod, you should be able to relatively easily rewire the SCART cable to match your region's pinout. There are a number of websites with all the pinout information.
Different types of sync can have better results, but the difference is usually subtle, and should work without you having to modify anything.
Also, composite sync/c-sync is completely different than sync-on-composite, which is such a needlessly confusing and annoying choice of terminology.
Hope maybe some of that helps, I know how frustrating it can be; I've been wanting this mod installed for months now, and having seen how amazing the deblur looks even with the ugly wavy lines on my current broken Tim Worthington mod makes the wait even more difficult. I really, really hope the Borti mod works when it gets here in a few weeks, heh.
Ah yeah to clarify, OSSC only recognized a signal from my gamecube when i was trying to test the scart cable. From the 64, I got no sync or response from the OSSC at all. So my next step is to either change the pinout of the cable I have, or order something. (Probably the latter.) Then see if i get results, and go from there.
I poked around with a multimeter before my test run and I'm resonably confident that nothing is bridged anywhere.
This has all been a way bigger asspain than I expected haha. Sorry to hear it was so much trouble for you, hopefully you get results with the borti board. And thanks for the reply about cables, the documentation for this stuff is all over the place.
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If your TV supports component and VGA inputs, I would start there and see how you like the picture. RetroRGB.com is a great resource, and it breaks options down for each console and even provides a simple path for each console to get you up and running.
You mention that you want these games to run "true to source," but connecting directly to a modern LCD is unlikely to do that. The TV will have to convert the analog signal from your console to digital, and this often introduces significant lag and other undesirable visual artifacts. Using a lag free upscaler such as the OSSC isn't necessarily "upgrading" your console's picture quality, it is presenting the video as it was meant to be displayed. The image has to be scaled to your display somehow since your TV is not 480p, so you can choose to let the TV do that (most likely with poor results) or use an external scaler.
Given your interest in 6th gen consoles my suggestion would be to get the OSSC. It doesn't do the best job deinterlacing the 480i signal your PS2 will provide for most games, but you can always use passthrough mode if you prefer your TV's deinterlacing (and this will still be better than connecting directly to your TV via component). The OSSC also has a SCART input which is useful for Dreamcast. I use a Retro Access RGB cable for my Dreamcast that can toggle between 15 and 30khz for 480p games. The OSSC can also upscale 480p content, which my other scaled suggestion can't.
A cheaper alternative is to get the Retrotink2x. It can't handle anything beyond 480i however, which means 480p is a no go. It will deinterlace your 480i sources (PS2) via component and give you a lag free HDMI out.
Probably not the right thread for this but......
I just got a PS2 Slim, holy fucking shit balls this thing is TINY. Never seen it in person before, but it's amazing how they were able to shrink that sucker down. Stick it in a PS5 dammit.
I just got a PS2 Slim, holy fucking shit balls this thing is TINY. Never seen it in person before, but it's amazing how they were able to shrink that sucker down. Stick it in a PS5 dammit.
Thanks for the reply and setting me straight. I was doing more research since that post and you're totally right that I'm adding processing/scaling no matter what if I'm using an LCD. I've also been reading and watching videos on scaling devices like the ones you've mentioned.
The PS2 is the only one of the four that I'm not all that happy with (probably because it's pretty much limited to 480i) and was thinking that I may pick up a Retrotink for it. Some of the demonstrations on the smoothing mode also produced some attractive results on PS2.
I have a bit of a maximalist mentality for sure, but for the money I think if you're in for a penny you're in for a pound. I'd just spend the extra money and get an OSSC.
I started with a RetroTink2x but ended up upgrading to the OSSC shortly after. Paired with quality cables, it's honestly amazing how good games look upscaled from the OSSC. Granted this is mostly the case for 240p systems, especially the PS1.
I'm using a 4K 55" TV and I have the OSSC scale as much as it's able to, which is 5x for 240p content and 2x for 480i/480p stuff. The 480p signal output by the Tink2x resulted in some weird screen tearing on my TV, and I wasn't too thrilled with how my TV scaled 480p to 4K. However the TV does just fine upscaling the OSSC's (almost) 1080p output.
I also think the Dreamcast looks freaking amazing at 480p scaled up by the OSSC. By far the most striking "retro" console IMO. The Tink2x can't handle 480p so you'll be reliant on whatever your TV can already do.
What is your TV's resolution? How big is it? Can you test some digital 480p content on it, from a PC or something? How does that look upscaled by the TV?
Thanks for the further insight.
Display I'm using will be mounted next to my primary television. It's a 37" 1080p 120hz IPS panel. It's several years old as it's difficult to find a quality flat panel with component and especially VGA these days. Scaling seems fine to my eyes, but interlaced sources are rough.
How often do they put OSSCs up for order? Just concerned about demand. I was on the edge of getting one but I'm trying to restrain myself for the pro.
This is a great point. I didn't mention it earlier as OP seemed to be looking for a less expensive option, but I should not assume. By all accounts the Pro is going to handle deinterlacing MUCH better than the OSSC does now, so perhaps this is OP's best bet considering he's working with PS2/Xbox and the like.
I should add that the OSSC Pro is expected to sell at a higher price than the current OSSC. $300 would not shock me, although that is just speculation right now. If you want the best possible image from your 480i consoles, wait for this.
With the OSSC, or even the RetroTink, you can use your primary TV since both devices output HDMI.
Amazon in the US sells the Kaico OSSC for $199 with Prime shipping. There's been some controversy about Kaico exploiting Matt Buxton's work over at VideoGamePerfection.com, but for now the Kaico might be the only domestic option for those of us in the US.
Edit: just to clarify, the OSSC is open source so Kaico is doing nothing wrong by selling their own model. The issue I believe was that they were using VGP's documentation or referring people to them for support. I don't remember all the details, but this is not an example of a Chinese clone ripping off the original since it is an open sourced design.
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I'm in Canada so buying from either would be a bit pricey, though I think I might be able to avoid a duty hit buying from Amazon. I think I will chance waiting for the pro and see if I can get one.
Just wanted to add that the OSSC is down to €110.00 on VideoGamePerfection.com. That's the lowest price I've seen. Converts to about $120 USD, but you'd have to factor in shipping as well (which wasn't too bad to the US when I ordered mine).
So about the OSSC, if I'm planning on running a PS2 through it (at 480i) is there any advantage over the Retrotink or am I just losing the option for smoothing that the latter has? Is there any benefit to connecting a Dreamcast to it via VGA? I've read it outputs at odd resolutions like 960p and per the manual of the television I'm using it only supports 480, 720, and 1080 via HDMI.
These are areas the OSSC Pro seems to be addressing. It's going to allow for a HQ deinterlacer, so 480i will look better, and if I'm reading right it'll also allow the ability for you to put the 960p resolution into a 1080p signal thus solving compatibility issues.
TV compatibility is a huge drawback to the OSSC. That being said my TLC takes everything I throw at it (except the screen tearing at 480p).
Going over all of this, I might recommend you check out the Rad2x cables. They basically do the job of a RetroTink2x (made by same guy) and will save your some money on buying expensive cables. If you already own the cables then the Tink is probably cheaper.
RAD2x PlayStation HDMI Cable
https://youtu.be/a0Ksk9Zru_A The PlayStation RAD2x cable is the only plug-and-play HDMI cable worth using for the original PlayStation. This video shows how it works and also highlights one of it's strongest features: Zero-lag 480i deinterlacing! Check out the video on YouTube (above), LBRY an
www.retrorgb.com
Keep in mind the RetroTink2x and these cables will only upscale to 480p and can't handle native 480p content, so you'll have to rely on your TV to display that.
Given your TV's limited resolution options and use of mostly interlaced consoles you should probably hold off on the original OSSC in favor of the Pro when it comes out.
This might be a dump question, but if I use a y-cable to connect stereo audio to the port on this component switch, will it down mix to mono?
Look at the tip of the 3.5mm connector, if it has two stripes it'll be stereo.
Mono on the left vs stereo on the right.
Need to find a way to also still get the clicky stick or else no thanks.
My NTSC scart cable for 64 arrived from retroRGB. To my delight (and relief), it seems I've done an adequate to near-perfect installation of the Worthington RGB chip. Picture looks great. Just got to figure out how to wire up the microswitch that toggles the de-blur feature, very much looking forward to seeing how that looks.
Then I just dremel off the region protection tabs from the cartridge tray, and I can finally put my 64 back together.
Then I just dremel off the region protection tabs from the cartridge tray, and I can finally put my 64 back together.
If you have access to a 3D printer and don't feel like destroying the original part you can download the N64 region mod.
I would also suggest the region free 3D printed tray - it's just an overall cleaner solution.
If that would have been developed before I dremeled my tray, I definitely would've chose the 3D printed one.
Now I'm just stuck with a cornerless tray that lets in dust with no cartridge.
I spoke too soon. Several of the soldered connections broke when I re-assembled the console. Better now than later since I can touch them up, but boy this project has been frustrating.
The picture and color are really nice but I'm getting a bit of video interference. It's much less noticeable once I wired the ground of the mod chip to the heatsink, but it's not completely gone.
Also, holy hell did I abuse the cartridge slot as a kid. Testing has been difficult since the console doesn't read the carts I'm testing 2/3rds of the time, and in those cases the OSSC doesn't get any sync at all.
The picture and color are really nice but I'm getting a bit of video interference. It's much less noticeable once I wired the ground of the mod chip to the heatsink, but it's not completely gone.
Also, holy hell did I abuse the cartridge slot as a kid. Testing has been difficult since the console doesn't read the carts I'm testing 2/3rds of the time, and in those cases the OSSC doesn't get any sync at all.
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I ended up getting a Retrotink 2x for the PS2. I'll be honest: I'm not a fan of the line doubling to 480p or even smoothing. (although, I see where the smoothing could be advantageous) The doubling adds a "bouncing" to the picture that's the same as I experienced with the Carby's in 480i games. However, it's not a total loss as the 480i passthrough from the Retrotink is noticeably cleaner than connecting the PS2 directly to the tv via component. I don't know if this is a limitation of my particular television or if component inputs are generally noisier than hdmi. I did try the Xbox in 480i via the Retrotink vs connected directly to the tv via component at 480p and greatly preferred the latter. There's still a bit of fuzziness around text, but it's far better than the former overall and not nearly as pronounced as it was with the PS2. So maybe the Retrotink is doing a bit of cleanup on passthrough?
I'm still focusing on sixth gen, but when I get around to the 240p consoles will the Retrotink add the "bouncing" on doubling (is this "bob deinterlacing" that I've read about?) or not? Because even though it's not that noticeable from a distance I still found it bothersome and can't stop focusing on it.
Edit: I tried native 240p content through the PS2 and line doubling did not produce the horizontal bouncing effect. The smoothing filter also has a much more pronounced effect than it has with 480 content.
I'm still focusing on sixth gen, but when I get around to the 240p consoles will the Retrotink add the "bouncing" on doubling (is this "bob deinterlacing" that I've read about?) or not? Because even though it's not that noticeable from a distance I still found it bothersome and can't stop focusing on it.
Edit: I tried native 240p content through the PS2 and line doubling did not produce the horizontal bouncing effect. The smoothing filter also has a much more pronounced effect than it has with 480 content.
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You can disable the smoothing filter on RetroTink with one of the buttons. Since RetroTink can only upscale to 480p (hence the 2x - 2x 240p), your tv is still going to be left doing the rest of the work. Mine didn't do a great job, which is why I eventually bought an OSSC.
Well aware. For 480i content, passthrough looks best in my opinion but the smoothing filter has its place. Smoothing filter yields some impressive results with 240p, but again sixth gen content doesn't give a whole lot of opportunity to use it. Line doubling on 240p does not yield the horizontal bouncing while 480i does. From what I understand, OSSC uses the same deinterlacing technique as the Retrotink/GCvideo and would therefore produce the same horizontal bouncing when scaling 480i by 2x. (pointed out in a few My Life in Gaming videos and elsewhere) My TV would not be able to support resolutions like 960p/etc making the OSSC a waste. (and it also would lose the smoothing filter)
The TV itself is doing a fine job upscaling from 480i/p in my opinion and I'm not feeling any appreciable input lag increase at the lower resolutions so that's a non-factor.
Edit: I have no way to direct capture, but an example of what can be done with the smoothing filter on 240p:
Original:
Smooth:
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Anyone that needs cables from them better put in an order tomorrow morning because depending on the amount of orders it could be a long time before they take more orders.
EDIT: Someone mentioned this and it's good to remember, DST starts this weekend so clocks will go ahead one hour tonight.
EDIT: Someone mentioned this and it's good to remember, DST starts this weekend so clocks will go ahead one hour tonight.
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