Luke having no plan is part of why he was so broken. He had no chosen one to wait on. He was alone. Shouldering the burden. And it sent him into debilitating depresision.
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Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.
- Thread starter Drek
- Start date
People have different takes on the Yoda scene, but it all roughly comes out to the same thing.
1. Yoda knows the texts are gone.
2. Luke is once again paralyzed by indecision as he approaches the tree.
3. Yoda destroys the tree (harmless deception) and admonishes Luke for living in the past and not seeing his failures as teachable moments.
4. Luke gets his spirit back, but it's too late. He has to project himself across the galaxy to be of use, and the effort kills him.
5. Luke dies finding peace in the final moments of his life, much like his father.
He was the highlight of TLJ and it was the best direction to take his character with how TFA had ended.
Seeing him go from his lowest point to his highest was enormously satisfying to me.
Seeing him go from his lowest point to his highest was enormously satisfying to me.
Show me a single example of this out of what you stated. An impossible event or storyline contradiction.
TLJ is my favourite Star Wars film, but it also simultaneously killed any interest I have in The Rise of Skywalker and the rest of the sequel trilogy. Rey, Kylo, Finn (and even Snoke) feel like they're not even halfway in their character arcs yet, and need a boatload more development before we come to the finale. I'm incredibly skeptical that a single film will be able to wrap this all up satisfyingly.
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I think they have plenty of development. If anything Poe needs more. Rey is now ready to become a Jedi and help her friends. Finn after trying to run away for one and a half movies now realises he will fight for the resistance. Poe realises he made mistakes, but I don't think he made the turn around yet.
TLJ got all the characters right. It's an honest script that takes everything that came before and follows through on that.
So you're absolutely right OP
So you're absolutely right OP
The Farthier chase and the kids in the stable who help them are the whole damn point of Canto Bight.
It's why the movie ends there
This is straight up weird to me. Han dying just felt like Harrison Ford asked JJ if he could die so he doesn't have to appear in anymore Star Wars films. Luke made me feel like he actually died for something meaningful to the series but to each their own.
what are we agreeing on, that Luke is in character? i agree..
but i was disappointed, i was waiting for him to fly an X-wing w/ R-2. didn't happen...
but i was disappointed, i was waiting for him to fly an X-wing w/ R-2. didn't happen...
The Last Jedi would have been a great movie if they would have cut out all the Fin and Rose stuff and spend more time developing the Luke and Ray story. I would watch more of that.
Nothing you mentioned is even remotely resembling this. There is nothing you have come up with that can even come close to being considered inconsistencies that contradict earlier events. Yours is just a list of random subjective things you don't like.
Yeah so I'm having a difficult time understanding why we're talking about plot holes when it's not actually a part of the discussion
Yup.
The real, undeniable fuck up in the movie is the Canto Bight side-quest. The rest is ranging from fine to great. And Luke is on the great parts.
I mean, if anything, if people are really mad about how Luke is shown in TLJ, they should look more at JJ and Kasdan than Johnson. When the only premise you have to introduce a character is : "he's been hiding in a hole for many many years without anyone knowing where he was", there isn't many interesting possibilities you can go from that.
The real, undeniable fuck up in the movie is the Canto Bight side-quest. The rest is ranging from fine to great. And Luke is on the great parts.
I mean, if anything, if people are really mad about how Luke is shown in TLJ, they should look more at JJ and Kasdan than Johnson. When the only premise you have to introduce a character is : "he's been hiding in a hole for many many years without anyone knowing where he was", there isn't many interesting possibilities you can go from that.
Snoke is dead...plus even if he was still around I doubt he would he getting any kind of arc. Maybe more backstory or information about him but he wouldn't have had an arc.
Yeah, I don't get it. Luke was turned cynical and bitter, but Han was turned into a loser who lost his ship. You could see Han's death coming from a mile away, and the only purpose it served was to make Kylo Ren more evil. At least Luke died doing something heroic.
Han was completely wasted, and yet people seem to give TLJ way more shit for its handling of Luke than they do TFA's handling of Han.
I loved luke in the last jedi, happily ever after stories are the worst, he has an actual arc with consequences. He's a real scene stealer. Love every moment with him, it's a shame it was so short lived. I would have taken another 20 minutes of training on the island over the finn and Rose stuff.
Oh time for more nitpicks!
Han's death made me laugh when I watched it. The whole thing is staged, framed, and edited so poorly. Kylo pulls out his lightsaber and is holding it horizontally with both hands. Han puts a hand firmly on the saber and the two stare at each other for way too long, the editing making sure to show the saber still being held horizontally. Then all of a sudden it's facing directly toward Han when it's ignited? How the shit did that happen? There's no indication of a struggle or any movement or anything. Just looks like they're holding it tightly and looking at each other. Then it's conveniently in Han's chest. Nobody's acting is selling the emotions I expect in a scene like this. Absolutely cheap plot hole.
Am I doing this right?
Han's death made me laugh when I watched it. The whole thing is staged, framed, and edited so poorly. Kylo pulls out his lightsaber and is holding it horizontally with both hands. Han puts a hand firmly on the saber and the two stare at each other for way too long, the editing making sure to show the saber still being held horizontally. Then all of a sudden it's facing directly toward Han when it's ignited? How the shit did that happen? There's no indication of a struggle or any movement or anything. Just looks like they're holding it tightly and looking at each other. Then it's conveniently in Han's chest. Nobody's acting is selling the emotions I expect in a scene like this. Absolutely cheap plot hole.
Am I doing this right?
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Literally none of those are plot holes
I know you're just messing around but the commonly accepted interpretation of that scene (from everything I've seen and people I've spoken with) is that Han knew Kylo had to kill him, essentially. That's why he says "Thank you" to Han. And Han looks grim but accepting. If Kylo had let his dad escape then Snoke would have killed Kylo and everyone else and he as well as Han knew it.
Perfect breakdown.
It's such a shame Rian gets shit on for TLJ.
You mean Harrison knew he wanted the writers to kill him? 😉
Real talk tho, I don't mind whatever story contrivances they made to lead up to his death. I just really hate the way that scene is shot, acted, and edited. I don't get "grim and accepting" from Han. It communicated very little to me other than "SHOCK! YOUR MAN JUST DIED" and in particular the editing causing the lightsaber to conveniently and magically change orientation makes me laugh every time. There's a lot of TFA that I dislike because in terms of film language it seems to communicate more fanservice than actual story (from how I read it). But I'll def keep what you said in mind next time I watch it in full and see if I can see it.
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I adore TFA and watched it countless times. On each rewatch it further confirmed that to me (I've seen plenty of other posts concurring around the web so I know I'm not totally nuts).
You can see Han essentially go through the stages of hope, denial, anger, and acceptance in the span of him walking up to Kylo, talking to him, then realizing the only way out is Kylo killing him.
I do agree the editing makes it seem like the position of the lightsaber is just random/nonsensical, though, lol. IIRC if you watch closely you can see Kylo turn it towards him right before it ignites (which is where you see Han accept that he has to die to save Kylo).
And I guess for me that one movement (the saber turning toward Han) was the most important part of the scene, because how the saber ends up facing him can communicate so much and it's just not there at all to inform us. We could have seen a struggle. We could have seen Han loosen his grip (it was a pretty tight grip) and letting Kylo turn it toward him. Or we could have seen him turn it toward himself. Or the cliché hug that turns into a knife in the gut. In that moment the lightsaber could represent their entire relationship and the camera takes time to bring our attention to it more than once but in the end Han's face is all that's telling the story and I feel it limited a lot of the emotional impact (outside of the impact of a fan favourite character getting the axe).
Of course there are probably reasons it's edited like that, I have no idea what their frame of mind was for that scene or what footage they even had to work with. Worst shit is getting to editing and realizing that some shots you put work into in order to sell a scene aren't actually usable. Just bugs the shit out of me is all.
I have a ton of problems with TLJ but Luke isn't one of them. His arc was solid, it was about a man who was built up to be larger than life essentially having an existential crisis and shutting himself out and losing sight on the fact that it didn't matter if he alone couldn't defeat the first order, the point was that he was there to inspire and give hope to those that could so that they would.
Here's the scene for reference. I watched it a handful of times before posting to make sure I remembered it correctly.
You could argue that the shot of the saber immediately before Han gets gutted is showing the saber beginning to turn, but it cuts away before we can really tell if that's what's happening.
you said there was no struggle
but there it was. so idk what is your complain about. o.O
Which part of this would you describe as a struggle, and how are you defining the word?
the moment where han holds the light saber tighter because he can see Kylo's intention?
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If they retcon it in IX to make Ben more redeemable so that Han killed himself there will be hell to pay
Right, that was the shot that I said you could argue that there's a struggle going on (I worded it as "showing the saber beginning to turn"). Personally I don't think it's adequate, but JJ seems to make a lot of decisions in terms of visual shorthand that I just don't like because they generally cut out what I consider important action that best informs the audience of what's going on.
To be fair, with the Last Jedi, there are a ton of plot flaws, but they are mostly because the characters make stupid or illogical choices, so maybe technically not plot holes. I categorized what I think is a plot hole versus illogical/stupid character actions versus plot contrivance/convenience. I also removed some rather minor points from the previous list.
Plot holes (either illogical or impossible events, or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.)
- It is established that the walkers can fairly accurately pick off moving ships and that the entire area in front of them is dangerous, yet Finn and Rose aren't killed and don't even show fear of the walkers as they have a dialogue while standing right in front of them. He then drags her back to the base even when trenches are shown to be nowhere near the walkers.
- It is established that Snoke is an extremely powerful force-user, more powerful than Kylo. It is established that he can even read Kylo's mind. So him not being able to tell Kylo is turning the light saber next to him is a contradiction of what has been established.
- (This could alternatively be put in plot convenience category) It is established that most droids cannot pilot ships/vehicles intended for humans, yet BB-8 despite being a 2.5-foot-tall sphere, somehow climbs up the 20 feet to the top of an AT-ST, climbs in, fires at storm troopers with insane accuracy, all with his tiny mechanical arms, conveniently getting Finn and Rose out of a dangerous situation.
- It is shown that the resistance can make calls from the Raddus, but they don't contact anybody except Maz. Surely someone must have a friend somewhere on a ship or in another system.
- It has been established that Maz is on the resistance's side, yet she declines to help Poe/Finn/Rose, treating her "union dispute" as more important to her than saving the lives of the last of the resistance even though the dispute is apparently trivial enough that she can have a casual conversation during it. Maz does not offer any helpful suggestions beyond the codebreaker, even though she seems to know a lot of people. She does not even offer to be a backup plan even though she is one of the few people in the universe who can do it.
- Finn/Rose never think of the completely obvious idea to use their shuttle to ferry off resistance members to another planet. They don't need Holdo's approval for this. They can do it behind her back. Or they can alternatively go to any planet and send out a beacon to rally support and aid for the Raddus.
- Finn/Rose idiotically park on the beach instead of finding where all the other transports are parked.
- The First Order is not constantly monitoring for smaller ships leaving Raddus despite this being the resistance's most likely course of action. They should have had fighters taking shifts flying around the ship.
- The First Order neglected to mount their miniaturized death star cannon on their spaceship, even though this is the most useful spot for it.
- If Luke can use the force to tell which planet Leia is on, then Snoke can tell what planet Rey is on in order to connect her and Kylo with the force. But he does not disclose this information to Kylo or send him there to kill or capture Luke and Rey.
- During Finn and Phasma's fight, she only attacks him with her sword despite firing at Rose with a blaster during the same fight.
- During Preatorian guard duel, Rey and Kylo suddenly forget they can use the force.
- Poe stupidly does not check Holdo for weapons immediately after mutiny, or put her in any sort of cell.
- If Luke knows about the back exit of the base on Crait, he stupidly does not tell anyone to go escape while he creates a diversion. Once he's gone they may still be hanging out at the entrance of the cave. If Luke does not know about the cave exit, his actions are pointless because since there is no exit, everyone dies either way.
- The resistance finds a pile of rocks at the back entrance to the cave, and no one asks Leia to use the force to move them, and Leia does not think of this either.
- A convenient way of getting Leia back into the Raddus: After being blown out of the bridge, Leia doesn't continue to move in the direction of the blast. It takes her about a minute to wake up. With the speed of her exit from the ship, she should be very far away from the ship by the time she opens her eyes.
- A convenient way of getting Finn and Rose out of jail and still be able to carry out their plan: They conveniently find another master codebreaker in the cell next to them who also knows how to escape.
- A convenient way of getting Finn and Rose out of being executed: After the Holdo maneuver damages star destroyer, all the storm troopers surrounding Finn and Rose are killed, but our heroes are fine.
- A convenient way of getting Finn and Rose off of Canto Bight: Canto Bight police ships are apparently not equipped to follow a ship into space even though that is the most likely place a runaway would go. They chase down the ship DJ is flying, but then he flies away and they do not follow. Canto Bight certainly has the cash to equip their police force with space-worthy ships.
- A convenient way of saving Finn and Poe from Phasma: She was standing next to Rose/Finn before the collision, and after the collision is now on the other side of the floor.
- A convenient way of getting Rey out of the grasp of Kylo Ren and off of the Star Destroyer: Rey locates and hotwires Snoke's ship in the minutes that elapse between the Holdo Maneuver and Kylo regaining consciousness.
- A convenient way of getting Rey back in the Millenium Falcon: Even though Rey now owns Snoke's ship, in the next scene she is in the Milennium Falcon.
- A convenient way of getting Finn and Rose into the base with the rest of the resistance: On Crait, Finn and Rose are luckily the only First Order ship to make it into the cave.
- A convenient way to keep Finn and Rose alive: They luckily aren't killed in the hundred-miles-per-hour collision in junky spaceships.
- A convenient way for Rey and Chewie to find the back exit to the base: Rey luckily finds the Crystal Foxes at just the right time, and somehow knows they are exiting from the same cave the resistance is in.
So I guess on a technicality, I have to concede that The Last Jedi has almost no plot holes.
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The entire FO was focused on blowing open the side of the resistance base, you know, the entire reason why they were there in the first place, after the resistance retreated back into it. I think the fact that they didn't even attack Finn shows just how futile his attempt really was. Kylo didn't command them to attack a single speeder, who posed no real threat to the FO. They were scrap metal flying into the eye of an immensely powerful beam (strong enough to destroy a well armored base). For all we know, Kylo didn't even notice them because they were that unimportant, and nobody else under his command were brave enough to inform him as.. we see what happens when people approach Kylo.
The result of them not attacking, IMO, is more a response out of arrogance (which the FO has in spades). I can understand why it doesn't sit right with people, because under normal circumstances, most armies/militaries would attack, but these are extraordinarily arrogant enemies. This is not a plot hole.
Snoke isn't a god. Again, his arrogance got the better of him here and he assumed that Kylo was under his control and passed his test (being pushed to feed into his hatred earlier in the film). Kylo, as we've seen, is quite good at hiding his emotions that aren't blind range or hatred. He hid these feelings from Snoke, which makes a lot of sense thematically for his character. This is not a plot hole.
People get into these from the top and walk into them. It's not inconceivable that BB-8 just rolled into the top of one and found a way to the top platform. While you may find it silly, BB-8 piloting one is is also not a plot hole.
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You still haven't figured out what a plot hole is.....these are just story choices you don't like, they all make logical sense in the context of the films even if you dislike them.
The FO was there to to blow the door. Kylo was obsessed. There was no reason to waste their fire power on two useless random figures that posed no threat when they were about to break through anyway.
Snoke was arrogant, not sensing betrayal in arrogance also....happened in ROTJ with the Emperor and Vader.
There is no reason to assume BB-8 can't pilot a AT-ST. Chewie was able to pilot one in ROTJ with no experience for example.
I just have to say the idea he he criticizes that Rose and Finn "conveniently" don't get shot down in the TLJ finale battle is one of the most hilarious criticisms I ever read.
It's an issue that they "conveniently" don't get shot down....in a franchise where Luke is one of only TWO Rebel ships to make it out of the Death Star run successfully when dozens get shot down, Luke who never flew a X-Wing before....is okay?
It's an issue that they "conveniently" don't get shot down....in a franchise where Luke is one of only TWO Rebel ships to make it out of the Death Star run successfully when dozens get shot down, Luke who never flew a X-Wing before....is okay?
A key to this whole discussion is that before TLJ, one of the boilerplate Star Wars fan rants was "Luke was the worst character in the series"
There's a lot of wilful ignorance and revision going on when people try to communicate why they don't like TLJ. Luke was always a difficult, impulsive character, who needed his friends and mentors desperately to get anything done.
There's a lot of wilful ignorance and revision going on when people try to communicate why they don't like TLJ. Luke was always a difficult, impulsive character, who needed his friends and mentors desperately to get anything done.
Not in a place where I can look this up, does BB-8 literally drive the AT-ST or do they interface with it somehow (either like Artoo does a lot or how BB-8 did earlier with Poe's X-Wing)?
